Hullo friends of beasties scarce and rare,

I was digging around for some old tales about dragons and stumbled upon a couple of Tatzelwurm stories from Switzerland. I know that you've had two threads on them already that fizzled out, but I just thought I'd add my finds to your delectation.

I like the stories because they sound much more like eye-witness accounts than just mee folk tales. I tried to translate them as closely to the original as possible without making them sound too klonky- I hope...

I really think the Tatzelwurm could be a cryptid...giant lizard-worm? who knows...

If I find some more stories, I'll post them too...


First tale:

The little girl of a farmer’s familiy from the ‘Oberhof’ (lit. upper farm, very common name for farms in Switzerland ) was ordered to cut bean poles in the mountain forest of ‘Saal’. So she was busy with the stem of a young fir, which stood on three evenly protruding roots like a stool, forming a hollow underneath. After the first cut of the axe, a young ‘Stollenwurm’ (Tunnel worm = Tatzelwurm) emerged from underneath and attacked the child. It was grey in colour, not quite as long as an arm, the mid-body about the thickness of a cat, had two upright, round-cut ears, fleshy and hairless, and walked on two short front-legs with small wide paws. Thus was the whole appearance cute, only at the front of the head sat two strangely huge eyes, as big as little wheels and as bright as stars. This extremely bright glance made the child flee immediately.
The narrator, which experienced this in her childhood, is now a seventy-year old widow. She not only still insists on the unmistaken veracity of the experience, but adds that the appearance of this ‘Stollenwurm’ coincided with an exceptionally hot summer. (Source: Tales from the Fricktal", Frick, 1987/88 )



Second tale:

In the summer of 1717, the herb collector and root-digger Joseph Scherer from ‘Näfels’ was busy at the foot of the ‘Glärnisch Hirschenzungen’ (mountain), whilst his boy was picking all sorts of flowers. Suddenly the boy gave a loud shriek. “What’s the matter”, the father called over. But the boy gave no reply, only stared with a pale face and horror-filled eyes at a big rock. The father found that strange. He left his bundle of herbs and hurried over. What did he see? From beneath a block of rock hissed a gruesome animal, from whose cat-like head two wild, protruding eyes were sparkling.

As soon as he tried to shoo the cat-beast away, it stirred and the whole body became visible. Four short legs armed with claws carried a spotted body, which was covered all over with scales and was about as thick as a half-filled pitcher (????) The animal whipped the long tail excitedly side to side, and surely it would have jumped at the two people, if the herb-gatherer wouldn’t have quickly sharpened a stick and pierced the animal with it. To Scherer’s amazement, the stick penetrated the flesh very easily, as if he pierced a slab of butter. But poisonous, stinking blood shot out of the wound. A few drops splashed onto the botanist’s leg, which immediately swell up massively, so that Scherer could only limp home with great difficuly.
Over a month he had to ‘salve and doctor’ until the swelling finally vanished. Everybody was convinced that the herbalist had killed a dragon. Although it was only about two foot long- and consequently must have been only a very young one. Who knows what father & son would have experienced if they would have come upon a full-grown ‘Lindwurm’? (Source: Glarner tales", collected & publ. by Kaspar Freuler und Hans Thürer, 1968)


Here are some picture from another source:

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(sketch from: Bernard Heuvelmans «Sur la Piste des Bêtes Ignorées», Paris, 1955 after an illustration from G. von Schultes “Soemthing new about the Mountain-Slide or Tunnelworm in the Alps”, “New Pocket book for Friends of Nature, Forest & Hunting for the year 1836”, Weimar 1835)


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Der Stollenwurm»

(aus: «Alpenrosen». Schweiz. Almanach, 1841)

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Tatzelwurm (a sketch drawn after an eye-witness account from: Hans Flucher «???», «Der Schlern», 13. Jg., 1932)


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Sketch of a Tatzelwurm, done by the painter Ada Von der Planitz after an eye-witness account of 1894; from: K. Meusburger «Etwas vom Tatzelwurm», «Der Schlern»,1931, S. 479)

I always think of it of a lage amphisbaenan, a kind of subterranean lizzard with only a pair of front legs. It tends to co-habit leaf-cutter ant nests where it munches on their fungus crop in return for protection. Kind of like a reptiley mafia in that respect...

tatzelwurm = jumping cat with snake bodies ? thats old stories

The image that appears to come out of an illuminated Bible is particularly intriguing. The small dragon seems to have pulled the clothing off of a woman. I am not sure which bible story this means to represent, though I would like to read it. I also wonder what we would see next if the illustrations were to continue.........

The early pictures of it make it look like a seal, in my opinion.

The creature seems very plausible.. a reptile with a poisonous bite isn't farfetched at all.

I hate to draw this old arguement up again, but maybe some sort of evolved dinosaur?

Why do you think it would have to be a dinosaur and not just a reptile? If we take the surrounding mountain fauna into consideration, a reptile, or more likely an amphibian is more plausible. the second tale describes how easily the stick penetrated the animal; so, very soft-bodied, and thin skin-no resistance. Reptile's skin must be more impermeable against water-loss- thicker. More importantly, the animal has only two legs. A land-dwelling animal must have four legs for efficient locomotion (I'm not taking birds and bipedals into account, e.g. hindlegs, vertical body-axis different. And if the animal would have been living in water most of it's life, and gone on land only for reproduction, like frogs for example, it would also help to explain why there are such few sightings. (deep mountain lakes?)

Given the fact that there are real soft bodied, two armed burrowing lizards in the New World, these uncannily similar alpine reports strongly suggest a real animal, for these stories were recorded long before the Burrowing Lizards were known, in fact, before "America" was known. Equally curious is the discovery by French Missionaries of pictographs and stories of the Piasa Bird of the Native Americans, that looked almost identical to a Medieval European dragon, though the two cultures could not have exchanged this information..

REALLY ??? I didn't know that ! Do you have a species name? Or even a pic? That would be brilliant!

I think you're talking about glass snakes. Or I think that's their name. They're lizards, but they look a lot like worms with two teeny, tiny legs at the front.

Ah! Amphisbaenia is the name, it is a lizards that lacks any limbs and lives in Mexico. Unfortuantely, the tatzelwurm would definately have to be a different kind, as these only grow six inches.


Um, that's a picture and not any sort of sighting. Tatzelwurms are never described as cat-snakes. Now, they've been described as leaping like cats, but not looking like them.

Heuvelmans thought that since the tatzelwurm has been described as poisonous that it might be a relative of the Gila monster, one of the very few poisonous lizards in the world. Gila monsters also have "fat" tails that closely resemble those in illustrations and reports of the tatzelwurm. Gilas normally live up to 4,800 feet in elevation in rocky foothills. They live in burrows usually dug by other animals and stay in their burrows up to 95% of the time. If the Tatzelwurm is related, the "shyness" of the Gila would explain why sightings were rare of them.
Gila monster:

Actually, glass snakes were well known to the medieval swiss, and have their own body of legends, but the mexican burrowing lizards do have just two front digging arms, suggesting "convergent evolution" of a burrowing reptile on opposite hemispheres. Boas and pythons are very different snakes, one laying eggs and the other giving live birth, but they occupy the same ecological niche, and therefore evolved into very similar animals.

In Australia there was even a convergent copy of a saber tooth cat, that was actually a marsupial.

So if a Tatzelwurm is actually discovered someday, I wold not be particularly surprised, for its smaller "cousin" already exists, and is also very rare to find becasue it mostly lives underground.

Thanks for the info, Argen.

I think though that the Tatzelwurm was an amphibian, not a reptile (See post to DC)

There are species of Giant Salamander found in Japan, China and Western US:

Giant salamander


The Hellbenders and Asian Giant Salamanders (Cryptobranchidae) are aquatic amphibians found in brooks and ponds in the eastern United States, China and Japan. They are the largest living amphibians known today.

The Japanese Giant Salamander, for example, reaches six feet and feeds on fish and crustaceans, and can live for up to 80 years.
They hunt mainly at night, and as they have poor eyesight, use sensory nodes on their head and body to detect minute changes in water pressure, allowing them to detect their prey.
Head, throat and skin along the sides of the body are warty and deeply folded – this helps the salamander to absorb oxygen from the surrounding water. The cavernous mouth is opened quickly to suck in prey species. Females use their legs to dig spawning pits into which strings of up to 500 eggs can be laid. Mottled green and brown skin helps to camouflage these giant salamanders.


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Pacific Giant Salamanders

inhabit cool, moist coniferous forests in the vicinity of cold, clear streams and mountain lakes. Terrestrial adults are seen infrequently as they spend much of the non-breeding season beneath the surface in burrows or concealed among surface debris. They are active at the surface primarily at night during periods of high rainfall. Pacific Giants are among the relatively few salamanders that are capable of producing vocalizations. If bothered, they may produce a sharp, low pitched yelp (similar to a dog's bark). They may also attempt to bite and are capable of inflicting a painful cut. Their large size and powerful jaws make them a formidable predator of not only insects, slugs, snails and worms, but also of other amphibians, snakes, and small mammals (shrews and mice).

wiki link

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And there's also a giant salamander in the Trinity Alps of the Wester US...

link


Many amphibians also aestivate, e.g. burrom themselves in the ground during the hot season, when ponds & rivers can dry out. Look how that fits in with the woman in the first tale describing a very hot summer; I've also found another reference to hot summer, but can't find it right now.

All tales though clearly mention upright, round ears. Reptilians definitely don't have 'exteriour' ears, but if the Ttzelwurm was an amphibian, it very likely had gill slits for under water breathing, and the 'ears' could have been a modification for gill protection outside of the water- when attacked, the animal could have erected the 'lobes'...

Also notice that the Pacific Giant Salamnder has the capability of vocalisation - In the tale, the animal is reported to be hissing...


The wound from the poisonous blood described in the Herb-collectors tale might actually have come from the animals skin. Many amphibians have toxic glands on their skin for defense, such as the Fire salamander for example, which is also endemic in Swizerland:

Salamanders may actively defend themselves once they are grasped by a predator. Besides various antipredator postures, S. salamandra adults are able to extrude heavy toxic skin secretions, e.g. the neurotoxic alkaloid Samandarin. This alkaloid causes strong muscle convulsions and high-blood pressure combined with hyperventilation in all vertebrates. The poison glands of the Fire salamander are concentrated in certain areas of the body, especially around the head and the dorsal skin surface. The colored portions of the animals skin usually coincide with these glands. Most of these secretions might be effective against bacterial and fungal infections of the epidermis, but some secretions could also be dangerous to human life.

Interestingly, "In 1726 the Swiss physician Johann Jakob Scheuchzer described a fossil as Homo diluvii testis (Witness of the Great Flood), believing it to be the remains of a human being that drowned in the biblical Deluge. The Teylers Museum in Haarlem (the Netherlands) bought the fossil in 1802, where it still is being exhibited. In 1812 the fossil was examined by Georges Cuvier, who recognized it as being a Giant Salamander and renamed it Andrias scheuchzeri, honoring both Scheuchzer and his beliefs (Andrias means 'image of man.')"

Here's the famous Balkin pic again. It was taken in the 1930's by a german photographer, which claimed it to be a Tatzelwurm.It does look a bit susppicious; can't say if it's a hoax or not....? -does have 'earlobes' though...

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Medi-eval porn???


The Taztelwurm certianly is a weirdy. Especially seeing as every story is different, and changes its description.

^that 1930's 'Tatzelwurm' pic looks like something very familiar lives in Otoh Gunga. Wass it the juvenile Boss Nass?

b-b-b-b-b-bb-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b!



hoooosa issin thissin ooman!? ee tinkin hesa so smarty, hesa smarta then the gungans!?



god I hate Gungans

? Translation anyone? Otherwise I'll start talking old Swiss dialect !

The description aren't that differnet, I think

These sound like tales of fiction to me, you'd think that there would have been more documentation about this creature if the second account was true and they had a dead specimen.

You're joking, right? Of course it's a hoax. It's almost identical to the first pic you posted from that 1835 nature guide, which Balkin most certainly would have seen. It actually looks like they carved it out of a log or something.



Um, that was in 1717 in rural foothills and they thought it was a dragon. How much documentation do you expect from that?

I agree with both statements...I said the pic looked suspicious...sheesh...

- It's very possible that the species was already rare or close to extinction in these times, and there are loads of stories on the Tatzelwurm, but these mountain people were superstitious, and not Attenboroughs in their spare time...

My mistake, I looked at the referencing at the end of the post and thought the account was from 1968.

It was in Gungan, you know, from Star Wars? The evil one. The first of the new trilogy.

Evil One? Hey that was probably the best Star Wars segment ever. Jar Jar was excellent. The only problem is that the moronic adolescents take their Star Wars far too seriously and do not understand the adult concept of "comic relief". Heck, some of them actually belief Star Wars is "real".

Well sorry, but I didn't like Jar Jar. There's comic relief and there's just plain annoyance. It's not being a "moronic adolescent" to NOT like something, you know. But forgive me for not understanding such understanding such "adult" concepts.










I think I'll go watch Clash of the Titans. Bubo being me fave character... injected some very welcome humour into that otherwise heavy film...

Oh pleez, pleez, meesa no wanna see ooman fightin.
Meesa get berry berry skeered!


I like the Gungans, and yes, they're annoying. But still, they help the desperate Republic. I kinda think that the Gungans equals Rohan in LOTR.

Actually, I didn't mind episode 1, but really, it kind of IS the evil one. Fair enough the originals were special effects-driven, and you can argue the same thing with the new ones, but the point is that it wasn't all green (or blue)-screen. The sets were interactable. Some of the sets in Ep1 were real, but the majority were CG, and I just feel that it didn't give the actors enough to go on. The Jedi battle was worth waiting for though

The Gungans were fine. It was Jar-Jar that stank.

Back on topic....I'm inclined to believe that the Tatzelwurm s a real creature, perhaps a type of burrowing reptile.
But we need a specimen, or at least a good photo, as proof.

Jar Jar Binks, what a failure that was. I guarantee they would have sold more Jar Jar bongs than action figures.

Hahaha! We ended up talking about JarJar Binks...meesa berry heppy! Hahaha!

Anyway, I have a theory that Tatzelwurm might be a giant salamander..not an actual giant, maybe, but a 1-2m long salamander can really surprise ol' medieval people, you know...

I agree. There's a good case for a giant Salamander, see the pics I posted earlier. I wonder what the results were if someone would compare the fossils of the Giant Salamander that Scheuchzer found with extant species. In a way, there's at least evidence that Switzerland at least at some point was home to Giant Salamanders.

Quote: "Interestingly, "In 1726 the Swiss physician Johann Jakob Scheuchzer described a fossil as Homo diluvii testis (Witness of the Great Flood), believing it to be the remains of a human being that drowned in the biblical Deluge. The Teylers Museum in Haarlem (the Netherlands) bought the fossil in 1802, where it still is being exhibited. In 1812 the fossil was examined by Georges Cuvier, who recognized it as being a Giant Salamander and renamed it Andrias scheuchzeri, honoring both Scheuchzer and his beliefs (Andrias means 'image of man.')"

I know this thread has been cold for a little while, but I just got around to reading it. Here's my theory about the Tatzelwurm. There is a very real possibilty that it is an extinct species of the suborder Amphisbaenia. Some of them have legs, some of them don't. And about the amphibian part. It is possible that the Tatzelwurm is an extinct species of the order of amphibian called the Caecilian. They are worm like and some have small front legs. Both links only give minimal information. Look up more, if you desire.

Thanks for the contribution, Rosenrot (say hello to Schneeweisschen, BTW... ). But I think the giant Salamander-type still the better fit. Amphisbaenia are very small, and Caecilians seem to prefer tropical climates.

SeaMare, the thoery of the Tatzelwurm being a gaint salamander is rather interesting. If I remeber correctly gaint salamanders can live in rather cold climates which would explain the "Tatzelwurm" being seen all over Europe. But I don't know how vicious giant salamaders are... Didn't the Tatzelwurm actually try to attack a few people?

(1) I've seen that thing when I was in The Netherlands. I lived in Heiloo, and one day I visited my friend Takako (she's actually Japanese) in Haarlem. We went to that museum and she told me that this creature, was a common one in Japan. I believe she called them Baby Fish(?). So THAT ONE is the supposedly "Tatzelwurm" fossil!
(2) What a peculiar name...

The giant salamander fossils found in switzerland and bavaria actually date long before the dinosaurs. On kind had a head almost three feet wide, and would have been a terror if it lived in the time of humans.

^Could they live in human times? Could one of them, a very last one of them triggered this Tatzelwurm phenomenon?

Well, I don't know about the monster-prehistoric beasts that Dragon Chronicler described. We should have found some fossils in later strata, I would think. But for smaller species having existed and having been a living source for the Tatzelwurm, I think there's a good case. All Tatzelwurm stories stem from European Alpine regions (Switzerland, Bavaria, Austria & French Alps), which fits in with the US Alpine version of the Giant Salamander. In many tales the animal is not that large. On average it's described as having about the thickness of a man's thigh- and being about 1m - 1.5m in length; that's still quite imposing. If you take it together with other dragon tales, well, you know how people are...we like to exaggerate; the "the-fish-was-thaaaat-big"-effect comes into play. With regards to Rosenrot's question, I don't know about Giant Salamanders, but certain reptiles certainly are agressive, if they feel threatened. Or, again, people could have exaggerated. It sounds better to say that the creature was fierce & wild than saying I was so scared, I nearly cr@pped myself & just took off & ran...!

The Japanese Giant Salamander reaches six feet and feeds on fish and crustaceans, and can live for up to 80 years.
The Greater Siren (Siren lacertina) is an eel-like amphibian. There is some debate over whether it is a true salamander. The largest of the Sirens, they can grow from 48-97 centimeters in length.

The Tatzelwurm is a pet of mine.

But seriously, I think the Tatzelwurm is a worm,lizard or something along those lines.