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mako
***(Authors note) I am currently translating from the texts of an itinerant priest from which my Zen tradition is a part, his name is Shosan.

This is from the first two pages that I have translated so far. Although the main works of Shosan have been translated into English, his Ha Kirish**an (Crush Christianity) has been mostly ignored, probably due to the fact that it is anti-Christian. I have attempted to keep the original meaning, and have avoided adding my own interpretation.

These are his thoughts on Christianity addressed in a text that was presented to various Buddhist temples in 1642. In 1637-38 there had been a rebellion led by 23,000 Christian peasants and Samurai against the local Daimyo (Lord). These texts were presented with the intention of helping to drive out any remaining Christians and to alert the populace about this evil creed.



English translation by Rev. Junpei Genshin, copyright by Rev. Junpei Genshin.

In the Christian teaching they claim there is a supreme being which they call Deus (God), whom they say is the lord of heaven and earth, and is in everything and everywhere. 1,600 years ago he manifested himself in the world to the Southern Barbarian lands* as saviour of all the people. His name, they say, was Jesus.

I ask, why has this almighty Deus manifested himself only once in the world he claims to have made and rules over? And why only to the Southern Barbarians? He must be a truly stupid Deus to think that as free people with a mind of our own that we would easily believe this.

It is said by the followers of Deus that when manifested upon the earth, he was hung on a cross by the unenlightened of the world. Can such a one be considered a god? How is it that a god can be captured and crucified by men?

And now these Kirish**ans have come to Japan, a land of freewill and logic, to spread their magic and evil teachings. Is this not a disgrace, that men would give up their own freewill to follow a Deus who cannot save himself from mere men?

The stupidity and effrontery of the Jesuit missionaries is astounding. They have clearly magnified their own human thoughts and feelings in the form of this Deus and yet worship as if he were apart from their own fabrication.

Clearly these Southern Barbarians cannot see that all around us is subject to cause and effect, the natural events of the universe.

In this Kirish**an sect miraculous events are held in high esteem, and it is said that they are the glory and honour of Deus. I have likewise heard that they cheat and deceive people by the various devices they have created. Clearly those of us with open eyes and free wills know that supernatural miracles are not possible. All about on the earth is natural and the work of nature itself.

Only through free thought and the advancement of wisdom can man live, not relying on the supposed miracles of gods. Man has no need of miracles but self-reliance, self discipline and individual striving.

I ask these Kirish**ans, if your Deus created animals and humans to be different, how could an all-powerful, all-good Deus create humans with a fatal weakness, a predisposition to evil, that will see them sent to an everlasting hell? If that is so, then the casting of people into a hell is solely the work of Deus. How can one worship such an evil Deus?

Kirish**ans are not able to hold their own in argument with even novice Buddhist monks about life and self-nature. Often during questioning they will assert that we simply cannot understand their Deus and that he is above human understanding. Yet the understanding of these Kirish**ans is comparable to frogs in a well.**

These Kirish**ans claim that those who worship this Deus will join him in his kingdom when they die. If the body is dead, what use is a kingdom? How does one expect to travel to such a place when they are naught but dust for the worms? How is it that such a ridiculous claim can come from those who say they are our equals as humans on the earth?

The Kirish**ans make the claim that Deus created humans, but not animals, with a soul. It is quit clear that they consider themselves above all living things. Such a stance from these Southern Barbarians to me is evidence of their childish and uneducated minds. We must cast out every single one of these Kirish**ans and their evil ways.

The bateren (Portuguese Catholic fathers) who have come to Japan have in their own minds constructed a creator of heaven and earth. With their schemes to capture this country for the Southern Barbarians they deceive the people with all kinds of empty words.*

Why do the followers of Deus press their tedious claims with the pretence that they alone know their lord who created heaven and earth? Idle verbosity without substance is most annoying.

Kirish**ans surely love talk of magic and sorcery, what need does a man of intelligence have for such fantasy?

The Kirish**ans gather together to talk to their Deus, but Deus does not answer them in voice. Yet they insist that they are talking to Deus and that Deus is listening to them! They ask for Deus to do favours and to carry out work for them. Kirish**ans are not able to carry out their own work and strive towards their own goals without asking their Deus for help.

The Buddha admonished that relying on supernatural gods is folly, for only by our own wills can we live. Concepts of other-worldly beings with supernatural powers that reign over man are for those who have no self-reliance, no discipline and no self-morals.

Indeed, when we cease to be bound by our own concepts and grasping, or our inclinations of mind, our doubts cease as well, because our knowledge is no longer dependent on anything beyond immediate and direct experience. Humans are fully equipped to just see, right now. Truth is there for those who will open their eyes. Kirish**ans are blinded by a faith in a power that cannot be. Deus, in order to be real, must himself also be subject to the same cause and effect as everything else in the universe.

The Buddha said, "When I speak to you, do not accept what I say in blind faith out of respect for me. You must examine all that I say, think hard and long, and put it to the test, just as a goldsmith examines gold by cutting and heating it to know whether it is genuine gold. If you have doubts, test it out. If you find it is right, accept and follow it. If you find that it is flawed then examine why and think it through. Only when you know how it is flawed can you say so, and only when you know how it is right can you follow it."

Kirish**ans trust only in a blind faith. There is no testing and thinking it through. They have been instructed to believe unquestioningly. Do you think that is a wise thing to do? To follow a teaching unquestioningly is to give up your own mind for that of another's.

Kirish**ans claim that Deus' way is the only way, and that there are penalties for questioning the words of Deus. Why would such a Deus penalise humans for using their own intellect. Isn't the intellect the greatest gift of humans? It makes no sense at all that humans would be restricted in the use of intellect if such a Deus was their creator.

The bateren encourage the slavery of other humans and treat them as items of trade. It is surely against the very freewill of any people to enslave others and to mistreat them. Honour is to be accorded all people including our enemies.

Kirish**ans carry with them a book that records the words of Deus. How is it that a record of the words of Deus exists, yet not a word is spoken by Deus to his people?

Kirish**ans are full of lust, hatred, jealousy and pride. These are things which lead to suffering and self-destruction. Yet Deus is silent I'm told, on how to combat these defilements. Ignorance is the seat of these defilements, and ignorance is the seat of the Kirish**ans faith. They are ignorant of the world about them, and ignorant of their own lives. Just as darkness is removed by light, ignorance is removed by wisdom. But Kirish**ans do not seek wisdom. They claim that man only need follow the wisdom of Deus. What stupidity!

It is evident to me that the Kirish**an religion is a devilish plot by these bateren to take hold of Nihon, to make Nihon into a Kirish**an stronghold subject to the political control of Portugal, as the Spaniards have done to the Philippines.

The Kirish**ans insist that Deus is all-loving, just and good. But the Kirish**ans don't demonstrate the same all-loving, just and goodness that they claim their Deus teaches them. What hypocricy. What advantage can there be in following such a religion?

Not a one of the Kirish**ans can tell of the appearance of this Deus, of what he looks like, of how he is armed or clothed. Yet they still insist that their Deus is real! What foolishness! How can an intelligent man claim something to be true without having first seen it or experienced it or having had others more knowledgeable verify it? We have only the words of these barbarians. They cannot offer any proof, and yet expect [us] to believe? There is simply no perceptual proof. I liken this to a man who falls in love with a woman whom he has not seen.

How is it that these Kirish**ans cannot understand death, impermanence, non-self when they have the words of their very creator in a text? Does not their creator tell them of these things? Does he hold back the very knowledge of life to his followers?

How is it that this Deus created the world as the Kirish**ans have said? If Deus created the world, did he do so out of nothing or did he create something out of something? Something can not be created out of nothing.

It is evident that the Kirish**an religion is rooted in fear and ignorance. If man is created by Deus, then he must belong to Deus and not to himself, but reality shows that man belongs only to nature. Only man is responsible for his own life, man is here because of his own action and the cause of nature alone. Man is neither punished nor rewarded by anyone but himself according to his own good and bad actions.

Kirish**ans claim there is no "salvation" without Deus. Thus a man may have achieved much virtue and lived a righteous life, yet he is still condemned to eternal hell just because he does not believe in Deus.


*The Portugese and the Dutch together with the English were trying to out do each other in trade from Japan. It was no secret that the Portugese were attempting to stockpile munitions for an invasion. The Spanish had already invaded the Philippines and converted the main islands to Christianity.


* Southern barbarians was the term used to refer to Europeans in general.

** There is a story about how frogs know only about the world from within their limited space within a well.

These opinons on Christianity are largely still held by Japanese Buddhists today, especially within most Zen traditions.***

Sometimes it is interesting to see how the non-Christian world views Christianity. I found this on another website (supposedly only about 2/3s of the document is represented here with the rest coming later) that I frequent and present it for discussion (let’s keep it civil please) yes.gif
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE
Kirish**ans claim that Deus' way is the only way, and that there are penalties for questioning the words of Deus. Why would such a Deus penalise humans for using their own intellect. Isn't the intellect the greatest gift of humans? It makes no sense at all that humans would be restricted in the use of intellect if such a Deus was their creator.


Thanks for that Mako. thumbsup.gif This would have been written just before contact with the west was cut off then. I have a great interest in Japanese history, but I've been studying the period when it was closed to the West for the most part, predominantly focusing on the mid 18th century, so I rarely have an opportunity to read about the Japanese reaction to contact with the west and western ideas/religion before that period of isolation began unless I deliberately go out of my way to look for something. Very interesting. yes.gif
GoddessWhispers
Fascinating find, thank you for sharing it. original.gif

This observation is of particular interest:


In this Kirish**an sect miraculous events are held in high esteem, and it is said that they are the glory and honour of Deus. I have likewise heard that they cheat and deceive people by the various devices they have created. Clearly those of us with open eyes and free wills know that supernatural miracles are not possible. All about on the earth is natural and the work of nature itself.

Only through free thought and the advancement of wisdom can man live, not relying on the supposed miracles of gods. Man has no need of miracles but self-reliance, self discipline and individual striving
.


In that it speaks quite a bit to the philosophies invested in animism and polytheism, that are condemned by the monotheistic christian faith. When in truth, as I read it, an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent christian god, can not but be present in such ways. Making nothing, truly super natural.

And to be clear, in place of the **. Is the proper spelling to read as: Kirish i t an sect?

StarMountainKid
Great post, Mako. Buddhism is grounded in the here and now and in self-reliance, while Christianity considers this life as unimportant except as a springboard to an eternal paradise, the enterance ticket being an unquestioning belief in an unseen Christian god. I have always considered self-reliance based on logic and the free use of our intelligence to be more a reliable path in life than belief systems and unquestioning adhearance to Authority. Shosan's text states this view very well indeed.

I don't want to crush any Christians, I admire the positive values of Christianity, but there is always a dark side to all organized religions as well as in all organizations in general, including Buddhism. Ways of Enlightenment are systems devised to free the mind of its self-created burdens, and when the mind becomes liberated it is also liberated from that system. That's a great concept.

I don't know the history of Japan very well, but Shosan's text is not a call to arms (as far as the unfinished translation goes). It is a logical comparison of Zen thought and Christian thought, of course from the point of view of a Buddhist. Anyway, the text speaks for itself.





mako
If you all want, when Rev Junpei completes the translation, I will include it here. I too am interested in the "rest of the story".... yes.gif
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(mako @ May 22 2007, 03:57 PM) [snapback]1688097[/snapback]
If you all want, when Rev Junpei completes the translation, I will include it here. I too am interested in the "rest of the story".... yes.gif


Yes please. thumbsup.gif
GoddessWhispers
I wonder if this full translation will be included at Sacred Text Archives!? Love that site. And yes, I agree with Rev., do update us when the second translation comes out. original.gif
rev r
Yep I'd love to see the full translation. wink2.gif

I love the bluntness of the commentary.

I'd just like to add that during this time period Zen was the state sponsored religion of Japan. Many of the higher ranking priests were retired samurai. Of course this was the perfect opportunity to promote the Shogunate's anti-West agenda.

It is interesting to look at this period of Zen in contrast to the Chinese schools who often stood in oppposition to the government.
fullywired
A very interesting article and I can't deny the truth in it !!


fullywired
mako
As soon as Rev Jun posts the rest, I will post it here.... yes.gif
MadMachine
This was a refreshing read in its bluntness, but because of that bluntness, I saved the OP in a text document on my computer, in case enough people find it offensive to get the topic closed.

Thanks, mako. I'm looking forward to the rest. yes.gif
mako
I have been in contact with Jun (his handle on the other website) and we will get the next installment when it is finished. He indicated that he would possibly be stopping by here to look us over... yes.gif
Tangerine Sheri
Mako, awesome read, i am gonna copy this and share it with a few of my pals... thanks for taking the time to share this with us....

It is evident that the Kirish**an religion is rooted in fear and ignorance. If man is created by Deus, then he must belong to Deus and not to himself, but reality shows that man belongs only to nature. Only man is responsible for his own life, man is here because of his own action and the cause of nature alone. Man is neither punished nor rewarded by anyone but himself according to his own good and bad actions.

this would go well on my shame and guilt thread LOL.....
rev r
very cool. you're the man...for a vulcan shark thingy.
Junpei
Hello there,

This is certainly an interesting forum and the people here appear to be friendly and open-minded. I believe that is a good thing, open-minded people do not place unnecessary restrictions upon themselves.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Rev. Junpei Genshin, I am a Zen priest and the translator of Ha Kirish**an which was written by Shõsan Roshi. I just wanted to say thank you to mako for making my translation accessible to open-minded people here on this forum. I have not completed translating this work. Mako will post the rest as I make it available, thank you mako.

If I may comment on a post made by rev r in which it was said -
QUOTE
I'd just like to add that during this time period Zen was the state sponsored religion of Japan. Many of the higher ranking priests were retired samurai. Of course this was the perfect opportunity to promote the Shogunate's anti-West agenda.


Actually, Zen was never the state sponsored "religion" of Japan. Shõsan Roshi was actually very active in trying to convince the government to take a lead in promoting Buddhism.
mako
Welcome Junpei...You will add yet another dimension to our diversity! We await your next installment with anticipation. yes.gif
Shadow_Hill
Welcome Junpei, we're very glad to have you here. thumbsup.gif
MadMachine
Welcome, Junpei! I'll also be patiently awaiting the next installment. Thanks for the translations, and for joining the forum! yes.gif
lil gremlin
Welcome Junpei, looking forward to reading the next half of your translation of such an interesting argument. grin2.gif
rev r
Hello Master Junpei. Thanks for correcting me there, I must have read some bad information.
KBA
blink.gif this is surprising to me, I hadn't really realized that Christianity had come to Japan with any popularity at any point before the Meiji period. I know that Japan wasn't completely isolated before that, but I hadn't realized that there might have been that kind of influence by Christianity any time before that.

こんいちは順平さん、よろしく!私も信じです神はうそです

I hope my Japanese was not too poor although my vocabulary is not very big so I guess that's unavoidable original.gif .

And thank you very much for posting this it's a great piece of history and I can't wait to read the rest!
truethat
QUOTE(Junpei @ May 25 2007, 11:27 AM) [snapback]1693392[/snapback]
Hello there,

This is certainly an interesting forum and the people here appear to be friendly and open-minded. I believe that is a good thing, open-minded people do not place unnecessary restrictions upon themselves.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Rev. Junpei Genshin, I am a Zen priest and the translator of Ha Kirish**an which was written by Shõsan Roshi. I just wanted to say thank you to mako for making my translation accessible to open-minded people here on this forum. I have not completed translating this work. Mako will post the rest as I make it available, thank you mako.

If I may comment on a post made by rev r in which it was said -

Actually, Zen was never the state sponsored "religion" of Japan. Shõsan Roshi was actually very active in trying to convince the government to take a lead in promoting Buddhism.



Welcome Junpei. I wondered why you chose Sam Harris's quote for your signature. Seems of all the ones out there available its an unusual one to see someone who wrote a book condemning faith and religion, praising religion. Curious of what you make of this.
Junpei
Hello to all. Thank you for the warm welcomes.

KBAさん,こんにちは. よろしくお願いします.

QUOTE
I hadn't really realized that Christianity had come to Japan with any popularity at any point before the Meiji period.


Christianity arrived in Japan with the Portuguese in late 1542. The Jesuits were tolerated as they brought stocks of gunpowder and firearms. In 1550 Francis Xavier visited Kyõtõ. Many in the Samurai class converted to Christianity, especially in Western Japan. The persecution of Christians began in 1597 under the feudal lord Toyotomi Hideyoshi and continued on and off through the Edo period until the Shimabara Rebellion in 1638 when Christian converts revolted against the government. Shõsan Roshi's brother Shigenari was the administrator of the area and he invited Shõsan Roshi to come and mount a spiritual offensive against any lingering Christian influence - this resulted in Shõsan Roshi writing Ha Kirish**an (Crush Christianity) which was distributed to all the temples in the area at government expense. Ha Kirish**an was last published in 1661.

Truethat said -
QUOTE
Welcome Junpei. I wondered why you chose Sam Harris's quote for your signature. Seems of all the ones out there available its an unusual one to see someone who wrote a book condemning faith and religion, praising religion. Curious of what you make of this.


I am of the same mind as Sam Harris. Sam Harris wasn't praising religion, he was praising Buddhism. Nor do I praise religion. My Zen tradition has been trying to rid Buddhism of all that religious supernatural nonsense for centuries. Sam Harris said in an interview about his book "The End of Faith" -

QUOTE
You write passionately in your book about the spirituality of Buddhism. How do you describe yourself in terms of your spirituality?

I don’t call myself a Buddhist. I recently wrote an article in the Shambhala Sun, which is one of the more widely read Buddhist magazines, entitled “Killing the Buddha.” I essentially argued that that the wisdom of the Buddha is trapped in the religion of Buddhism. The teachings of the Buddha, taken as a whole, probably represent the richest source of contemplative wisdom that we have, but anyone who values these teachings should get out of the religion business. It’s the wrong message. And, in any case, 99 percent of Buddhists practice Buddhism as a religion, and therefore are part of the same egregious discourse.


There are today four forms of what the West terms "Buddhism."

1. religious "Buddhism" - not what the Buddha taught at all.
2. academic "Buddhism" - again not what the Buddha intended.
3. "Buddhism" as a cult - as in the damaging Aum Shinrikyõ
4. the Dharma - the unadulterated teachings, the bare bones message of the Buddha.

True Buddhism is not another "-ism" (the word Buddhism does not exist in Asia in fact, rather it is just called the Way or Buddha-Dharma). Buddhism is simply a process, an awareness, an openness, a spirit of enquiry - not a belief system and certainly not a religion. Buddhism is actually atheistic (or somewhat agnostic) and has a lot to offer anyone who cares to dig deep past all that supernatural magical mumbo-jumbo that has been added by various cultures on it's journey to new lands.
mako
OKay, here is the next part that Jun translated for us:

In the Kirish**an teaching there is no method of teaching the mind, of awakening self introspection and thought. It is simply expected that all should follow without question like baby ducks following the parent. What good can come of that? Are they men or ducklings?

The Kirish**ans have no power to control their sufferings. They cling to their dogmatic views and their teachings of Deus. Clinging to rituals and rites and believing them to be a means of mental purification is folly. As the Buddha said, it is not sufficient to simply trust in the teachings of others without first putting them to the test. Only through testing and seeing for ourselves can we know about mental grief, sorrow, the impermanency of all conditioned things, and the soulless nature of the body. As to the Kirish**an teaching about humans, they consider the mind and the body as two separate things. Are they not joined in unison in the Kirish**ans? Are these people somehow physically different from us? I think that is not the case. Yet they insist that the mind is somehow different from the body, not a whole part.

The Kirish**ans are taught not to doubt, not to question, their Deus. That is indeed an unwise thing. If man's ability to reason, to doubt, is removed then how does one decide for ones self? How does one live fully aware of his place in the universe? Through written words from another? How foolish!
There are these Kirish**an bateren who claim they are speaking for their Deus. How does one know that they repeat the words of Deus unabridged? Does Deus speak in words to these men? And what for only to those in robes? Why not to all men? I see in these men acts of covetousness, of ill will towards others. Is this the way of the men who speak for Deus?

A man of the Dharma does away with covetousness, he purifies his mind of lusts. He casts away ill will. He dwells free from drowsiness and dullness, with clear comprehension. Full of peace, he cleanses the mind of worry.

The Kirish**ans are ever blaming their evil deeds on others, not taking responsibility for their own deeds. They are quick to blame and slow to apologise. They show no respect for etiquette and bathe rarely. How can such an unclean, uncouth race be the men of a god? No one can others purify, purity and impurity depend upon oneself.

They hold that there too is another god such as powerful as Deus but of opposing teachings. An evil god is he and he is to blame for their (the Kirish**ans) evil doings! By oneself are evil deeds done, not by outside forces. Only a man of ill-mind* could blame his own evil deeds upon another. All conditions proceed from the mind of man, the mind is their source. If man speaks with an impure mind, ill effects will follow.

Looking at the bits that I have highlighted in red, you can see, little has changed over the intervening centuries... yes.gif
truethat
So Junpei, as long as its your spiritual beliefs being practiced then its ok. Its just everyone else's that is the problem.

Junpei
QUOTE(truethat @ Jun 7 2007, 01:29 AM) [snapback]1711745[/snapback]
So Junpei, as long as its your spiritual beliefs being practiced then its ok. Its just everyone else's that is the problem.


Pardon?
GoddessWhispers
Excellent, another addition. Thank you. original.gif

I appreciate this observation especially: The Kirish**ans are taught not to doubt, not to question, their Deus. That is indeed an unwise thing. If man's ability to reason, to doubt, is removed then how does one decide for ones self? How does one live fully aware of his place in the universe? Through written words from another? How foolish!
There are these Kirish**an bateren who claim they are speaking for their Deus. How does one know that they repeat the words of Deus unabridged? Does Deus speak in words to these men? And what for only to those in robes? Why not to all men? I see in these men acts of covetousness, of ill will towards others. Is this the way of the men who speak for Deus?



Reminds me of the mind set that believes it is not one's place to question, but to obey. If true, why pray?! If everything is going according to plan, what then is prayer but beseeching god to altar it's plans!? Logic would preclude the impression one can have it both ways. If god is all knowing, all powerful and everywhere present, and everything is going according to plan, then why grieve one is born to be a sinner!? One worships that being that made that condition possible, in it's human creation, from the inception of their presence on Earth. So if everything is going according to plan, how can anything anyone does be wrong or right, within the construct of that plan, and within the domain of omniscience!?

If god, all powerful, all knowing and everywhere, has a plan, why see anyone of any other faith as wrong or in need of being saved or converted to one god faith!? When that there are billions of souls on this planet already, holding myriad faiths, or none at all, are all inclusive of that plan, held in the super natural abode of the one and only power there is. wink2.gif
eqgumby
QUOTE(MadMachine @ May 23 2007, 08:21 AM) [snapback]1689989[/snapback]
This was a refreshing read in its bluntness, but because of that bluntness, I saved the OP in a text document on my computer, in case enough people find it offensive to get the topic closed.

Thanks, mako. I'm looking forward to the rest. yes.gif

I can't imagine ANYONE that frequents these boards would attempt to have the topic closed. If they did, I would undoubtedly completely quit these boards and lodge some form of formal complaint.

My questions are, can we have some info and some links to this information? I was pretty impressed with the logic applied, and find it hard to imagine it's as old as it appears to be. The arguments and commentary seem very contemporary. Then again, the Japanese culture has been notorious for its ability to be complete and simple at the same time. I'd be thrilled to read the rest of the text, as well as any other writings by that author.
eqgumby
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Jun 6 2007, 03:27 PM) [snapback]1712197[/snapback]
Excellent, another addition. Thank you. original.gif

I appreciate this observation especially: The Kirish**ans are taught not to doubt, not to question, their Deus. That is indeed an unwise thing. If man's ability to reason, to doubt, is removed then how does one decide for ones self? How does one live fully aware of his place in the universe? Through written words from another? How foolish!
There are these Kirish**an bateren who claim they are speaking for their Deus. How does one know that they repeat the words of Deus unabridged? Does Deus speak in words to these men? And what for only to those in robes? Why not to all men? I see in these men acts of covetousness, of ill will towards others. Is this the way of the men who speak for Deus?

Reminds me of the mind set that believes it is not one's place to question, but to obey. If true, why pray?! If everything is going according to plan, what then is prayer but beseeching god to altar it's plans!? Logic would preclude the impression one can have it both ways. If god is all knowing, all powerful and everywhere present, and everything is going according to plan, then why grieve one is born to be a sinner!? One worships that being that made that condition possible, in it's human creation, from the inception of their presence on Earth. So if everything is going according to plan, how can anything anyone does be wrong or right, within the construct of that plan, and within the domain of omniscience!?

If god, all powerful, all knowing and everywhere, has a plan, why see anyone of any other faith as wrong or in need of being saved or converted to one god faith!? When that there are billions of souls on this planet already, holding myriad faiths, or none at all, are all inclusive of that plan, held in the super natural abode of the one and only power there is. wink2.gif


What stuns me GW is, when I read the translated text, I get it, and I totally see his point of view, and his observations seem nearly self evident, almost as if Shõsan Roshi is not judging but observing and mourning these Kirish**an's loss of self detrmination and self validation . Then you step in and piss me off by implying, once again, how stupid someone that disagrees is. Leave the enlightening to Shõsan Roshi. He nearly got me to throw away my crucifix, then you came along and I was inspired to load my super-soaker water pistol with holy water in case you tried to sneak in my window one night and suck the holy spirit out of me...

Click to view attachment
GoddessWhispers
QUOTE(eqgumby @ Jun 7 2007, 05:32 AM) [snapback]1712277[/snapback]
What stuns me GW is, when I read the translated text, I get it, and I totally see his point of view, and his observations seem nearly self evident, almost as if Shõsan Roshi is not judging but observing and mourning these Kirish**an's loss of self determination and self validation . Then you step in and piss me off by implying, once again, how stupid someone that disagrees is. Leave the enlightening to Shõsan Roshi. He nearly got me to throw away my crucifix, then you came along and I was inspired to load my super-soaker water pistol with holy water in case you tried to sneak in my window one night and suck the holy spirit out of me...

Click to view attachment


You....use water!? Couldn't tell, standing down wind! tongue.gif ~runs for her life~

And you are free to believe I implied stupid, all you wish. In point of fact, I was putting into a contemporary context, what you said you saw as a mourning for the loss of self-determination and self-validation by these Kirish it an's,(<so as to avoid the *) to whom the text refers. Fascinating isn't it!? I am of an opinion, and you want to shoot me for it. And with a super soaker full of holy water no less. I take your holy water and the lemons that come with it. And I make lemonade. It tastes good, because your weapon, in my world is a means to quench my thirst. While you pull the trigger, I am sated of my thirst. Because I know what I said and what I meant. And if you need to shoot me for it, lock and load baby! I'll get soaked, and never change a thing. But you will, when you decide you have a right to pull the trigger. And then, after, believe you had the right. And then call yourself tolerant of people, not like yourself. wink2.gif
eqgumby
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Jun 6 2007, 04:43 PM) [snapback]1712290[/snapback]
You....use water!? Couldn't tell, standing down wind! tongue.gif ~runs for her life~

And you are free to believe I implied stupid, all you wish. In point of fact, I was putting into a contemporary context, what you said you saw as a mourning for the loss of self-determination and self-validation by these Kirish it an's,(<so as to avoid the *) to whom the text refers. Fascinating isn't it!? I am of an opinion, and you want to shoot me for it. And with a super soaker full of holy water no less. I take your holy water and the lemons that come with it. And I make lemonade. It tastes good, because your weapon, in my world is a means to quench my thirst. While you pull the trigger, I am sated of my thirst. Because I know what I said and what I meant. And if you need to shoot me for it, lock and load baby! I'll get soaked, and never change a thing. But you will, when you decide you have a right to pull the trigger. And then, after, believe you had the right. And then call yourself tolerant of people, not like yourself. wink2.gif

God, I hope you look good in a wet t-shirt... w00t.gif

It's gotta be something about the syntax, or timbre, or something! It just comes off so condescending! disgust.gif

And honestly, I just don't know why. Yes, on the surface you just said the same thing and added a few examples, like why pray. It's not that you question, it just seems like you minimize what's so important to some people. Like taking candy from a baby. It's just a friggin lolly-pop, but at THAT moment, its EVERYTHING to the baby.
GoddessWhispers
QUOTE(eqgumby @ Jun 7 2007, 05:59 AM) [snapback]1712316[/snapback]
God, I hope you look good in a wet t-shirt... w00t.gif
I've won three contests in 2 States. Does that count?


QUOTE
It's gotta be something about the syntax, or timbre, or something! It just comes off so condescending! disgust.gif
Perhaps you just don't like me. And as a consequence, anything I say sounds condescending, because besides myself, personally, you find Atheism condescending. Just a guess.


QUOTE
And honestly, I just don't know why. Yes, on the surface you just said the same thing and added a few examples, like why pray. It's not that you question, it just seems like you minimize what's so important to some people. Like taking candy from a baby. It's just a friggin lolly-pop, but at THAT moment, its EVERYTHING to the baby.


Let me be clear, so that perhaps you'll better understand an impersonal observation in the context of a discussion about religion. If a religion believes in prayer, while it's philosophy claims the deity it honors is omniscient, omnipresent and all powerful. If that religion , in it's philosophy, affirms everything is going to gods plan. If a grieving parent can be told by a representative of her faith, (preacher, priest, imam, etc...) , that their little newborn is now in the after life because that religions deity , "called them home" or "needed an angel in heaven" , or "We'll never really know why god lets these things happen, but it's all according to plan." Then , I believe, it is then a valid observation to ask, why pray!?

When prayer, is understood as a devout petition to god. So then, what is prayer except the human ego that first accepts/holds faith in/has hope of, god and that everything is going according to plan, but that praying persons ego believing they have a right to petition god to change that!?

I hope that clears it up for you. If not, load the soaker, I have more teeshirts. wink2.gif
Ryo Ohki
What is a bateren?
Junpei
QUOTE(eqgumby @ Jun 7 2007, 06:58 AM) [snapback]1712236[/snapback]
I can't imagine ANYONE that frequents these boards would attempt to have the topic closed. If they did, I would undoubtedly completely quit these boards and lodge some form of formal complaint.

My questions are, can we have some info and some links to this information? I was pretty impressed with the logic applied, and find it hard to imagine it's as old as it appears to be. The arguments and commentary seem very contemporary. Then again, the Japanese culture has been notorious for its ability to be complete and simple at the same time. I'd be thrilled to read the rest of the text, as well as any other writings by that author.


This is the first time this work is being translated in it's entirety in English. What info would you like? I have a copy of the original on loan from Nagaizumiji.

Here is a link - http://www.geocities.jp/shimizuke1955/1185...kisayousan.html

Here is some info in English - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Shosan Listed there is a book by Arthur Braverman. I've not read it, so I don't know what it covers.

A Google of Suzuki Shosan returned 721 results in English and Japanese.
GoddessWhispers
BaterenJapanese approximation of the western word "padre"; used to designate Christian Priests, especially Jesuits, during the "Christian Century" (1549 - 1650) and Edo period (1600 - 1868). Originally bateren was a standard neutral apellation. Later the term assumed a distinctly sinister connotation in the popular literature of the Kiristan Monogatari genre, which portrayed the grotesque Urugan Bateren (Padre Organtino), Furaten Bateren (the frates or brothers of mendicant orders under a colective pseudonym) , and other bateren as evil magicians and agents of a Christian conspiracy intent on subverting and seixing Japan. The subcategory korobi bateren refers to apstate priests such as the Jesuits Chistovao Feriera ( Sawano Chua) and Giuseppe Chiara (Okamoto San'emon) whom the Tokugawa Shogunate used in its Anti-Christian inquisition
eqgumby
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Jun 6 2007, 05:17 PM) [snapback]1712338[/snapback]
I've won three contests in 2 States. Does that count? *snip*


I hope that clears it up for you. If not, load the soaker, I have more teeshirts *cut*. grin2.gif

Sweet. I have no problem with wet t-shirts *cut*
*loads the soaker with jello-shots*
Party time!
mako
Careful, your military background is showing...LOL yes.gif
GoddessWhispers
Not possible. I used pasties on the puppies! innocent.gif tongue.gif
eqgumby
I can't believe I was edited... sad.gif
Ah well. I'll be looking into these writings later. Pretty cool ideas. Thanks again for the links too.
KBA
QUOTE(Junpei @ May 28 2007, 09:00 AM) [snapback]1697303[/snapback]
Christianity arrived in Japan with the Portuguese in late 1542. The Jesuits were tolerated as they brought stocks of gunpowder and firearms. In 1550 Francis Xavier visited Kyõtõ. Many in the Samurai class converted to Christianity, especially in Western Japan. The persecution of Christians began in 1597 under the feudal lord Toyotomi Hideyoshi and continued on and off through the Edo period until the Shimabara Rebellion in 1638 when Christian converts revolted against the government. Shõsan Roshi's brother Shigenari was the administrator of the area and he invited Shõsan Roshi to come and mount a spiritual offensive against any lingering Christian influence - this resulted in Shõsan Roshi writing Ha Kirish**an (Crush Christianity) which was distributed to all the temples in the area at government expense. Ha Kirish**an was last published in 1661.


Oh, I see. Thank you for the information.

As an interesting side note, I did a quick Google for キリシタン And there really is quite a wealth of information on this period.
I was raised a Christian, Now an atheist as I (probably very roughly wink2.gif ) said in my last post; and I used to know somebody who had worked at a Christian church in Japan. I was kind of surprised about that because I didn't think there would be much interest at all for a Christian church in Japan. He was there for 2 years though so there must have been some sort of following. Is there still a general bitterness towards Christianity in Japan after some of the westernization that's happened in the last century?

QUOTE("truethat")
So Junpei, as long as its your spiritual beliefs being practiced then its ok. Its just everyone else's that is the problem.


True, are you unable to differentiate between the author and the translator? Why must you always jump to the conclusion that someone's persecuting the religious? Criticism and bigotry are two very different things, and if I recall correctly, Junpei himself has not even commented on Christianity other than in a historical context.
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(KBA @ Jun 7 2007, 06:18 PM) [snapback]1713465[/snapback]
I was raised a Christian, Now an atheist as I (probably very roughly wink2.gif ) said in my last post; and I used to know somebody who had worked at a Christian church in Japan. I was kind of surprised about that because I didn't think there would be much interest at all for a Christian church in Japan. He was there for 2 years though so there must have been some sort of following. Is there still a general bitterness towards Christianity in Japan after some of the westernization that's happened in the last century?


I don't know how widespread Christianity is in modern Japan, but hubbie's parents (both Japanese) both converted to Catholicism and were part of churches in Japan before they came to the UK - that was 38 years ago. Hubbie's aunt came from a Buddhist background but became a Catholic nun.
Ryo Ohki
It is a minority religion in Japan.
Junpei
QUOTE(Ryo Ohki @ Jun 8 2007, 04:06 AM) [snapback]1713536[/snapback]
It is a minority religion in Japan.


1% of the population claims to be Christian. That 1% also includes foreigners. That doesn't mean that they renounce their beliefs in Shintõ or Buddhism however. It is not uncommon to see Japanese who are Christians attending Shintõ shrines or Buddhist temples, and even Japanese Christians often have a Shintõ shrine or Buddhist altar in their house.

QUOTE
Is there still a general bitterness towards Christianity in Japan after some of the westernisation that's happened in the last century?


Not at all really. Christianity, like all things 'Western" is seen as being "cool." Many young Japanese wear a crucifix, but don't follow Christianity at all. I know a Yakuza who has a large crucifix tattooed on his inner forearm, but he is not Christian. Japanese have a thing for Christian weddings in a church, complete with service by a priest. The priests however aren't real - they are foreigners that look the part.

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