hi everyone i was wondering if you believe if anyone on this planet knows what goes on when we die, and if they know the truth about aliens, i want to hear your thoughts.

I believe there are one's who know about life after death wether they be angels,saints,exc.For personal reasons which I can't speak of I believe.

I know there is a life after this one. I just think its not what most people would consider "heaven" or "hell". We with souls are travelers and when we move on we carry with us what we have and hold important.

Does that include people such as jesus (I mean the prophets).

All scientists know the answer to the first one:
What happens after you die: Nothing, you're dead. End. Fin.

And this one, but it's not sure wether they have even been here or not.
What about aliens: there are lots of them, but they are ridiculously far away.

No one knows for certain, even the die hard skeptics and scientists don't know really know, because the fact of the matter is, they haven't been dead and live to tell about it.

Due to the fact if it matters or not is a matter of Opinion.

As for the Alien part, with so many sightings and documents and claims it could be possible, and if it were possible the general public probably can not handle the truth yet, especially those of religion and those who are really really in denial.

Well no, i suppose because jesus wasn't supposedly human, including the prophets. If they all actually existed 2000 years ago. The reason why i asked is because you always hear about certain people in the government being briefed. And alot of people who astral projected always tells stories of the after life, but you have to wonder if there actually being truthfull and there right.

Wombat: ya never know if it's the end or not. You gotta wonder were some psychics get there information from, if there legit.

There is absolutely no credible mechanism by which a person can keep living after the physical body dies.
Alas, they are not legit, as you put it.

Voted yes.
I'd imagine there's a high level someone who knows if aliens are real or hoax or what.
Knowing about life after death could go all over the place... but I'm guessing someone knows objectively (I've got my subjective opinions that there Is life after death). Wombat says he knows so I guess that makes my "Yes" vote appropriate.

I didn't say there not legit, i was referring when you saidthat when you die that's it, zip, the end. There might not be, but you gotta wonder how this was all put here. What's the point of just making this universe, being born from nothing, then going back to nothing. How can this place be born from nothing? That's what i wonder. But the reason why i asked this question was because of what someone people think that the government knows the truth about aliens, certain people in the government. And people that claim to astral project. I don't know wheather to believe them or to shake my head in frustration.

I has nothing to do with aliens, but my question was weather people believe if there anyone out there that knows the whole truth about aliens in our government and what goes on when we die. The two questions have nothing to do with each other.

There are lots of people around who have been clinically dead and have come back to life. They have some memories of what they experienced, and their reminiscences have been documented extensively by both scientists and journalists. Some of them have written whole autobiographies on the subject. If you want to know what it's like to die, ask someone who's done it.

I'm not aware that it has much to do with "aliens."

But remember boorite to wombat is not credible enough for him

I have heard of this also, but not sure what to make of it.

I'm not sure just what to make of NDE's, either, but I feel pretty confident that people who talk about them are telling what they actually experienced while clinically dead. So I'm thinking that I'll probably experience the same thing when I die, too.

Maybe that doesn't really answer the question of "life after death." Some people look at NDE's and say, well that's just the brain malfunctioning as it shuts down. That could be true, but I don't see any particular reason to think so, myself, or any particular reason to think the experience doesn't refer to something that really happens. In fact, the "brain malfunctioning" hypothesis doesn't sit quite right with me for a number of reasons.

So to me, NDEs are a reason to lean toward the proposition that identity and consciousness continue after physical death. But it's entirely possible to take them the opposite way. In fact, I was aware of the phenomenon for a long time while thinking that consciousness probably doesn't survive the body's death. So yeah, it is hard to know what to make of it.

Boorite, could you type your reasons why you don't think it's not the brain malfunctioning? I would like to hear if it's cool with you.

The way I look at it is, before you were born you were not "not alive" you just lacked life, the same should go for after you die, you once again "lack having life" so remember before you were born? no because you had no conciousness. same will be for after you die it is a simple rationale, and thats why I said yes to your poll.

On UFOs .....The top guys in the Intelligence communities know ------one way or the other.

On LAD ----- NDE is to my experience the best evidence.. By far the best NDE ACcount ever is Anita M over at www.nderf.org
http://www.nderf.org/anita_m's_nde.htm
.....everyone should read her story ---especially hard boiled sceptics---i'd love to hear how they could explain her experience away,especially since everything she says can be and has been verified by her Doctors.
She is a member of the forum there and is always willing to talk to new people about her experiences.

Stephen Hawking was asked on "Richard and Judy" lately whether he believed in Life After Death to which he replied "It's wishful thinking" ....to which Richard replied ...." Oh' i was kind of hoping for a yes on that"
The thing with Hawking though is that his lifes work seems to be in search of that ultimate power in the Universe .....Is it a case of he's scared to hope for something better for himself in the next life....He's the ultimate example of a trapped Soul yearning to be free ......I think it's a natural reaction.

Interesting idea for a topic.

On death, I believe the only people who know about it to a degree are those who were in the process of becoming clinically dead, but even they don't know the full tale, as they have re-emerged to tell it.

Aliens; I have not completely made my mind up on. If there is life out there than I don't think that we know anything about them, however if there isn't, than I suppose you could say most of the worlds population knows the truth about aliens.

Ah, the famous near death experiences or NDEs. They are complete crap too. Basically, they are complex illusions courtesy of mother nature when things aren't going too well for you. NEDs don't have anything to do with death. They can be recreated under controlled circumstances when there isn't even the slightest risk of dying. For example in the centrifuges of G-force tests. About 14% (if I remember correctly) of the pilots report seeing the typical NDE stuff when they pass out.

Wombat

Four words for you : COMPLETE AND UTTER BULL .

It's true that G forces can mimic the physical effects of a NDE such as the light at the end of the tunnel etc......but to buy it as an explanation is complete rubbish and shows a lack of knowledge on the subject.
If you'd read Anita Ms NDE you might be a little wiser to the facts.
She was literally hours from death ,was riddled with Cancer ...her body was shutting down and her doctors had told her husband to be prepared for iminent death. She had a NDE was told she had been cured ,she came round (which she wasn't expected to) and immediately felt better.
The doctors were flummoxed and could not explain it and cannot to this day......In every test she received after this the cancer had receded more and more and is now completely gone....and this is not spontaneous remission either ...it doesn't happen on ones deathbed.
The physical aspects of a NDE can be induced by G forces but the spiritual cannot ........And even if they could maybe when the Body feels under threat some spiritual aspect of ourselves is triggered.....so it still proves nothing.

Some reading on the subject
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/jul/extre...t:int=1&-C=

You are assuming that the soul, spirit or whatever you call it, exists. There is nothing serious to suggest that it does. And that sounds like an NDE like any other, with the special twist that the cancer was cured. There have been a lot of "miraculous" recoviers in the history of medicine, with different diseases, but that by no means proves anything supernatural. There has not ever, for example, been a single case of an amputee growing a limb back, no matter how religiously devout, or how much they wanted it.

Also, the things she saw during her NDE are completely subjective and cannot, in any way, be verified. You also have to look at the financial motivation for making and publishing such a story.

Yes 1+1=2
2=2=4

Yes, NDe experiences are completely subjective, but this doesn't and shouldn't distract from the veracity.
I see you ignore some evidence apparent in some well known NDe lore like Pam Reynolds, who was conpletely dead...flat line EEG...for 2 hours...the blood drained from her brain so they could fix an anyruism...and she was brought back to life with specific info that happened during the procedure.
There are many other examples, if you care to study NDE' phenomina properly, where there was veridical evidence wheich seems to support a non-local form of consciousness exists outside the parameters of our current understanding.
In Anita M's case she was stage 4 terminal cancer, her organs shut down completely..and actually died of the complications.
During her NDE, if you bothered to read it, she also had a veridical experience where events that occured to her after her death were later verified.
If you want to say that these events were planned and concocked that is your right.
What you can't so easily dismiss is the fact that she has the medical evidence to prove her illness, and following her NDE the cancer completely disappeared.
Ah yes...spontanious healing...but.... what happened to the billions of cancer cells that were in all her organs?
If they had all spontaniously died, they would have turned her blood to paste trying to evacuate from the body and this alone would have killed her.
Yet there was no sign of cancer having ever been in her body.
Whare did the cancer cells go that were there???
These are but a few examples.
I could go on, but your mind seems already made up so I am not going to waste my time trying to convince you.
The debate rages on.
If you are looking for support of your arguments take a look at Susan Blackmore's research.
She sings your tune.
Consciousness and other dimmensions are something that science currently can't verify,.,
Just because science doesn't have a current means of measuring or verifying consciousness as local or non-local doesn't mean it ain't there...just science hasn't figured out how to measure it yet.
Taking the idea that there is no "proof" because we can't currently find a way of measuring it is bad science IMO, just as ignoring some evidence as anomolous because it doesn't suit your theory is equally questionable.

Blessings

Turtle there is no use, even if you had something to prove Wombat wrong, he still refuses to be wrong on his part, So there is no use in debating with him.

He will probably accept it if it is something as a worldwide acceptance by the media, and scientists and has been proven, although stuff like the big bang and a comet killing the dinosaurs is still in theory but he abides by it, only because scientists accepts it.

Other then that he is totally the Antichrist IMO

Indeed...
Here's some info JUST IN CASE!

Near Death Experiences / Out Of Body Experiences: An Indepth Examination of Veridical Evidence & The Rebuttal of Common Skeptical Explainations
Written by Eptemonge (member NDERF forum)

Veridical Perception & Veridical Information gained during Near Death Experiences / Out Of Body Experiences, even during a flat EEG where brain and heart activity have ceased, and even in cases of persons born blind:

There are a number of well documented cases of people having near death experiences / out of body experiences, even during a flat EEG where brain and heart activity have ceased, returning with factual information which they had no prior knowledge of, and numerous cases in which the experiencers returned to life with information unavailable to them at the time of death.

These include being able to accurately tell the doctors what they were doing while they were clinically dead, what clothes they wore, what procedures and instruments they used, and any conversations being said, including accurate blow by blow accounts of their own resuscitation from a bird's eye point of view, the whole of which can later be checked and verified to be true.

Often times they also describe what was happening out in the hallway, who was sitting in the waiting room, what was happening on the other side of the building, and conversations being said at these same locations, all while they were clinically dead elsewhere. The events witnessed, heard, and experienced later being verified to be true. Even obscure objects on the roof have been seen and verified.

There are also accounts of experiencers meeting deceased relatives during an NDE that the person did not know was dead, such as a relative or a friend, and finding out that they were in fact deceased after the fact, and learning information from them that they could not have otherwise known.

There are many accounts of children and adult NDErs learning about relatives and siblings who had died before their own birth that they never met or were never told about, etc.

Also, people who have been blind since birth have been able to accurately perceive visual surroundings during their experience. Many people have also been informed of knowledge far beyond their personal capacity. Etc.

The most convincing aspect of these, is that many of them were recounted, recorded, and documented IMMEDIATELY or VERY SOON after the patient regained consciousness to the doctors, nurses, staff, and family members, not long after the fact.

Interestingly, there have in fact been Successful Experiments in actually testing Veridical NDEs...

* Many doctors, nurses, medical staff, paramedics, and family members have been interviewed by NDE Researchers to obtain cross-referanced verifiable information between the stories of the patients concerning their Veridical NDEs and the cross-referanced experiences of the medical staff involved with them.

* Dr. Michael Sabom did a study on over 57 cardiac patients who had clinically died and were brought back, 32 of whom had experienced Veridical OBEs and had described in great detail their own resusitations during cardiac arrest, and 25 of whom had not experienced an OBE during their cardiac arrest. He had two groups, the experiencers who saw in their OBEs and the non-experiencers who did not, describe their resusitations. To his suprise, 80% of the non-experiencers made serious mistakes. On the other hand, all of the experiencers did not make a single mistake.

Accourding to PMH Atwater in her book "The Complete Idiots Guide To Near-Death Experiences" regarding Dr. Michael Sabom's Research Study...

"Experiencers even correctly detailed readings on medical machines that were not in their line of vision, and described other circumstances they should not otherwise have been able to know."

* Dr. Pim Van Lommel did a more indepth study with 344 cardiac patients independently of Dr. Michael Sabom with similar results.

They made sure that their subjects could be verified as flatlined during the experiences.

* Dr. Kenneth Ring did a study on Veridical NDEs of 31 persons who were born blind and found that they could veridically "see" events while their OBE unfolded the same way sighted people's do.

I'd like to add that Dr. Michael Sabom and Dr. Pim Van Lommel and Dr. Kenneth Ring's Research were published in PEER REVIEWED Science Journals.

Here is an excellent list of arguments in favor of the phenomenon by IANDS...

* Once a person's brainwaves have ceased, indicating that all mental activity has stopped - perceiving, thinking, and remembering - how do we explain their accurate perception of events going on around their 'deceased' body (both sight and sound), and their accurate reporting of events taking place even at significant distances from their clinically-dead body?

* If we regard experiencers' perceptions of dead relatives as just imaginary "wishful thinking", how can we explain their accurate description of relatives previously unknown to them, yet later verified by living relatives and by civil documents?

* If the spiritual component of the near-death experience could be explained away as just an extension of the person's pre-existing belief system, why have confirmed atheists come back after their NDE convinced there is a God? And why have religious believers returned from their NDE with un-orthodox changes to their prior dogmas?

Excerpt from Wikipedia's Article on NDEs...

"As An Afterlife Experience

Some see the NDE as an afterlife experience. They believe that the NDE cannot be completely explained by physiological or or psychological causes, and that consciousness can function independently of brain activity (Rivas, 2003).

Many NDE-accounts seem to include elements which, according to several theorists, can only be explained by an out-of-body consciousness.

A majority of individuals who experience an NDE see it as a verification of the existence of an afterlife (Kelly, 2001). This includes those with agnostic/atheist inclinations before the experience.

As Greyson notes: "No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE. The paradoxical occurrence of heightened, lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion raises particular perplexing questions for our current understanding of consciousness and its relation to brain function. A clear sensorium and complex perceptual processes during a period of apparent clinical death challenge the concept that consciousness is localized exclusively in the brain." (Greyson, 2001)

Research on NDEs occurring in the blind have also hinted that consciousness survives bodily death.

NDE's can also lead to long-lasting spiritual effects (as evidenced by the many studies which confirm the experience as having taken place during clinical death)."

OBE Specific Research:

* The Monroe Institute's OBE Experiments.

* Charles Tart's OBE Experiment of having an experienced OBEr accurately read a five-digit number from an unreachable/unseeable location. 100,000 to 1 chance accuracy.

* Robert Morris' OBE Experiments with Keith Harary who reported accurately on sitters, letters, and positions, in a sealed laboratory 20 yards away.

* Clinical testing of OBEs - in which strain gauges were triggered at a distance, apparently by the test subject's roving presence, and in which an animal reacted consistently as if the subject were in the room when he was reportedly having an OBE while asleep in the next room.

* The US Government's 20 year long Program "Stargate" on Remote Viewing which had a number of amazing positive veridical results with Remote Viewers, as well as a number of misses.

What do the Skeptics on the otherhand have to say about NDEs? Let's be fair now.

Skeptic Argument # 1: Dying Brain Theory

The Dying Brain Theory states that upon clinical death the brain is slowly straved of oxygen and creates a vivid hallucination that is later remembered as an NDE.

This theory in truth falls very short of the cold hard medical facts of what happens to the brain after cardiac arrest occurs and when clinical death sets in, and is likewise destroyed by the well documented Veridical Aspects of the NDE Phenomenon itself that are never adaquetely dealt with as a whole.

In total refution of the "Dying Brain Theory" the cold hard medical facts are that when a person's heart stops they lose total consciousness within seconds. The loss of consciousness is complete and there are no memories of the event. EEG and brain stem monitors show no brain activity while in this state. There is no gag reflex, no pupil response, no brain activity whatsoever. They are dead. The brain cannot produce images in this state, and even if it could, you couldn't remember them.

Multiple medical doctors including Peter Fenwick a respected neuropsychiatrist, Pim Van Lommel a cardiologist, Sam Parnia, Bruce Greyson, Ian Stevenson, Melvin Morse, Michael Sabom, and numerous others, will tell you the same thing.

"Simultaneous recording of heart rate and brain output show that within 11 seconds of the heart stopping, the brainwaves go flat. Now, if you read the literature on this, some skeptical people claim that in this state there is still brain activity, but, in fact, the data are against this in both animals and humans. The brain is not functioning, and you are not going to get your electrical activity back again until the heart restarts." (Dr. Peter Fenwick)

Dr. Sam Parnia: "During cardiac arrest brainstem activity is rapidly lost. It should not be able to sustain such lucid processes or allow the formation of lasting memories."

Pim Van Lommel's well-known research study published in The Lancet, a leading medical journal, also notes that cerebral activity flatlines within 4 to 20 seconds of cardiac arrest.

"How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? . . . Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience. NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation. In our prospective study of patients that were clinically dead (flat EEG, showing no electrical activity in the cortex and loss of brain stem function evidenced by fixed dilated pupils and absence of the gag reflex) the patients report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, or memory from early childhood occurred, as well as perceptions from a position out and above their "dead" body." (Van Lommel, Van Wees, Meyers, Elfferich (2001). Near-Death Experience in Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands. Lancet.)

The Dying Brain Theory also doesn't explain why only 18% of those who are brought back from clinical death experience an NDE, while the remaining 82% do not. Even under the exact same conditions.

"Our most striking finding was that Near-Death Experiences do not have a physical or medical root. After all, 100 per cent of the patients suffered a shortage of oxygen, 100 per cent were given morphine-like medications, 100 per cent were victims of severe stress, so those are plainly not the reasons why 18 per cent had Near-Death Experiences and 82 per cent didn't. If they had been triggered by any one of those things, everyone would have had Near-Death Experiences." (Van Lommel 1995)

I'd like to clarify that even though only 18% of those who are brought back from clinical death experience an NDE (all under the same medical conditions), the LONGER one is clinically dead, the higher the chance of being brought back with an NDE. Those who were clinically dead longer than several minutes have a far higher chance of coming back with an NDE than those who were clinically dead for only a minute or two.

Skeptic Argument # 2: DMT Chemicals Causing NDEs

DMT does not account for the Veridical Elements of the NDE, nor the amazing structure of many NDEs, accourding to the book DMT: The Spiritual Molecule, it may act as an initial NDE trigger, but cannot make up for the entire experience, Veridical Elements and all, in addition to the pesky little fact that within 4 to 20 seconds of cardiac arrest, the brain waves go flat, and even if they were sufficient (which they are not), the brain cannot produce images in this state, and even if it could, you couldn't remember them.

Skeptic Argument # 3: Ketamine

The Skeptic Sources refering to the Drug Ketamine causing NDEs are referancing an old paper by Ketamine Researcher Dr. Karl Jansen, who has since totally changed his stance on Ketamine actually causing the experiences, and is now far more open to the metaphysical component of NDEs. His current hypothesis is that Ketamine and other triggers of NDEs/OBEs simply act as a "door to a space" rather than actually producing that space. He states that his findings now are more in line with other researchers in his field such as John Lilly and Stanislav Grof.

"I am no longer as opposed to spritual explanations of these phenomena as this article would appear to suggest. Over the past two years (it is quite some time since I wrote it) I have moved more towards the views put forward by John Lilly and Stan Grof. Namely, that drugs and psychological disciplines such as meditation and yoga may render certain 'states' more accessible. The complication then becomes in defining just what we mean by 'states' and where they are located, if indeed location is an appropriate term at all. But the apparent emphasis on matter over mind contained within this particular article no longer accurately represents my attitudes. My forthcoming book 'Ketamine' will consider mystical issues from quite a different perspective, and will give a much stronger voice to those who see drugs as just another door to a space, and not as actually producing that space'." (Dr. Karl Jansen)

Melvin Morse M.D. wrote an insightful article titled "The Right Temporal Lobe And Associated Limbic Lobe Structures As The Biological Interface With An Iinterconnected Universe" that is along these lines of thought.

Skeptic Argument # 4: The Navy Airmen Stress Tests

These are studies where they used Navy Airmen in G-Force stress tests that caused the blood in the heads of the individuals to drain, inducing a state of simulated clinical death, in which NDEs were reported. These do not conflict with the NDE Phenomenon, as the persons were essentially put into a state of simulated clinical death when the blood drained from their heads, and they had an NDE.

Again, like Pim Van Lommel's findings, it only occured in 18% of individuals who underwent and came back from this state of simulated clinical death.

Skeptic Argument # 5: Susan Blackmore's Critique Of "The Tunnel"

Regarding the Tunnel that people see during their NDEs, Susan Blackmore has theorized that the optic nerve causes a "Tunnel Effect" due to random neuron firings in the back of the eye to explain away the "Tunnel" that people see.

But a woman named Vicki who was born blind had her optic nerve severed in her incubator at birth, and she still visually saw a Tunnel during her NDE and OBE. And it happened awhile into the actual experience.

The fact is, The Tunnel can appear in front of them, to the side of them, up above them, even through a wall, soon after or long after their clinical death set in. And sometimes even not at all.

The Tunnel is truely a moot point concerning the overall NDE experience.

Skeptic Argument # 6: The Assertion That People Only See And Experience What They Already Believed

This is completely untrue. Atheists and Agnostics come back believing in a God. Many Christians come back believing in Reincarnation, that Other Religions are Valid Spiritual Paths, and other Unorthodox Hetrodox ideas. There are a number of cases of Hindus meeting Muhammed, Muslims meeting Buddha, Christians meeting a Figure of God other than Mainstream Christianity. (I know one Southern Baptist Christian who saw Shamanic Imagery in his NDE, and became a Shaman. I met another one who met a Demiurge Figure in Addition to a God Figure, which reflects Gnosticism.) A seven year old girl who was raised Christian saw deceased spirits of people waiting to be reborn (reincarnation) that goes against her belief system, etc.

I know an Atheist who had a very profound NDE when she was a child, and she had been raised non-religious, and she had experienced God in a Panentheistic Context, that she was informed "All is One", and she said that she became and identified and connected with everything during her NDE. Very much in line with Eastern Spiritual Thought.

Skeptic Argument # 7: Keith Augustine's Anti-NDE Article (The Skeptic's Trump Card)

Sources such as Keith Augustine's article will prey upon the perceived weakness of certain NDEs, out of their full context, while ignoring alternative explainations and far better and far stronger NDE examples, in an attempt to bring all NDEs down. The "weird" NDEs he presents are without context, and his sources are usually Christian Fundamentalist Anti-NDE Books (Not Kidding), and short excerpts from Books of NDE Researchers, taken out of their full context and presented without the full explaination of the NDE Researchers who are presenting them. His alternative explainations of Veridical NDEs ignore pesky facts and additional and alternative information that he convienently ignored to come to his conclusions.

The bulk of his arguments against specific veridical cases, revolve largely around presenting totally unprovable unverifiable highly speculative "coulda-woulda-shouldas" regarding how they "could have seen/heard those things naturally" while ignoring well presented alternative explainations, the full context of the specific cases, and ignoring all of the known facts and circumstances surrounding the matter at hand that conflict with his hastey conclusions. His arguments often revolve around presenting a totally one-sided view of things, ignoring what the other side has to fully say regarding it, and comes up with his own conclusion without the full data being presented there. There are times where he partially or very briefly and shortly presents what the other side has to say, but certainly not all of it, as much of what he does not present is very damning to his side of the argument.

FIN

I'm planning on making another indepth article on this subject eventually to tackle more indepth skeptical arguments that I didn't have time to tackle in this perticular article, although I feel that the whole of what I did tackle in this perticular article covers all of the main skeptical objections.

Sources:

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html - Indepth NDE/OBE Evidence In Favor of Survival of Consciousness (53 Items of Evidence Presented, Full of Links, Sources, and Referances.)

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles001.html - A Critique of Susan Blackmore's Dying Brain Hypothesis by Greg Stone

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael...and_their_.html - Michael Prescott's indepth critique of Keith Augustine's Anti-NDE Article.

http://www.melvinmorse.com/e-tlp.htm - The Right Temporal Lobe And Associated Limbic Lobe Structures As The Biological Interface With An Interconnected Universe

http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm - Van Lommel, Van Wees, Meyers, Elfferich (2001). Near-Death Experience in Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands. Lancet.

http://www.cinemind.com/atwater/VLommel.html - "About the Continuity of Our Consciousness" by Pim Von Lommel

http://www.mikepettigrew.com/afterlife/html/dutch_study.html - The Dutch Study

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm - A great response by Pim Van Lommel against a Leading Skeptic regarding his research study.

"Autoscopic Evidence: Dr. Charles Tart's Out-of-Body Experience Research":

http://www.near-death.com/tart.html

"Psychophysiological Study of Out-of-the-Body Experiences in a Selected Subject":

http://web.archive.org/web/20060215224439/...cles2.cfm?ID=31

Out-Of-Body Experiences (OBE or OOBE), Article by Mario Varvoglis, Ph.D.:

http://www.parapsych.org/out_of_body_experiences.htm

Out-of-Body Experience (OBE) Research:

http://library.thinkquest.org/C0120993/obefull.html

http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html - CIA-Initiated Remote Viewing At Stanford Research Institute

"In July 1995 the CIA declassified, and approved for release, documents revealing its sponsorship in the 1970s of a program at Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, CA, to determine whether such phenomena as remote viewing "might have any utility for intelligence collection". Thus began disclosure to the public of a two-decade-plus involvement of the intelligence community in the investigation of so-called parapsychological or psi phenomena. Presented here by the program's Founder and first Director (1972 - 1985) is the early history of the program, including discussion of some of the first, now declassified, results that drove early interest."

http://www.geocities.com/wwu777us/Debunkin...l_Arguments.htm - Debunking Pseudo-Skeptical Arguments of Paranormal Debunkers

http://www.nderf.com/phpBB2/index.php - NDERF Forum, where lively Debate and Discussion of NDEs/OBEs takes place on a daily basis.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...90757&q=nde - The Day I Died (BBC Video Documentary on NDEs)

yes, the people who knows what goes on when we die, are the people who are dead.
I personally believe, just like various scientist, that there's no life after death.

RIGHT ON!

Man I could have not said it any better, he believes a lot in science yet he contradicts himself when he fails to look further and the scientific evidence that is currently out there. As if he is completely ignorant to the whole idea. and yes he also acts as if the only right answers are his answers, with out realizing he could be wrong.

I am a skeptic myself but i try not to be ignorant to where it gets a little annoying.
I don't think we should consider his opinions since they do seem 1 sided 100% of the time. Oh and I might believe his claims are from outdated sources, ignoring all new sources as well.

I'm aware of the centrifuge experiments and their alleged applicability to NDEs, and while I find the experiments interesting, I'm not impressed with them the way that you seem to be. Beyond that, I don't think there's much point in going into great detail in a discussion where the phrase "complete crap" is offered as an empirical statement about a natural phenomenon. I will, however, point out that I've noticed no support for the contention that "NEDs" [sic] have nothing to do with death and are merely complex illusions. The fact that a small minority of subjects experiencing G-LOC also experience sensations roughly similar to NDEs simply doesn't suggest that conclusion, much less strongly support it. That is why you do not find that claim in the primary journal literature where G-LOC studies are reported, only in pop media like Skeptical Inquirer and Penn & Teller's TV show, whose title tells you everything you need to know about its objectivity and rationality. I suspect the latter is where you first heard about the centrifuge data. I hardly need to point out that Showtime network and Penn & Teller are entertainers and not publishers of scientific research.

If you are interested, you can look at primary research and make up your own mind instead of parroting a TV magician. You may notice that anyone who is serious about the conversation doesn't sound like Penn Jillette, who in my opinion is a fine showman.

Again, a discussion that embarks with a statement that a phenomenon is "complete crap" has little hope of going anywhere productive, but for what it's worth, you have my response.

Addendum: Holy smokes, Turtle!

@ psifox & Turtle:

I'm not the unstoppable behemoth with unflexible ideas that you guys make me out to be (why do you assume I am?). I'm not an idiot either. I'm a skeptic, and I demand evidence, and that's what Turtle just kindly gave me.

Some of the explanations were not entirely satisfactory and I'm a bit concerned about the financial considerations behind some of the links he provided (ie people trying to sell their books), and there are plenty of ideas that go against what you have listed.

But if at least a part of what he included is transparent, objective and truthful, I have obviously been wrong in thinking that the cause of NDEs has been, at least in some part, found.

For now I won't discuss the issue too seriously because I obviously don't know enough about it.

Unstoppable behemoth only because it seem you portray yourself to be.

It's fine being a skeptic and all but the whole thing of "it's not possible, it will never happen" sounds like a broken record over and over.
I guess its the way you portray yourself to the other posters thats all.

Again don't get me wrong I am a bit of a skeptic myself, but not entirely because some of the things I've dealt with changed my mind otherwise, and thus it creates a more open way of thinking.

But for what it is worth you would make a good debate partner.

You proved me wrong. I said there wasn't much chance that the discussion would be productive, given the wording you used. I'm crap at predicting the future! Which in this case is a good thing.

Anyway... I think it's safe to leave aside the question of whether or not NDEs refer to real events or are just random firings of dying brain cells. The question was, what happens when you die? And part of the answer is, you experience the tunnel of light and all that stuff. That seems pretty clear regardless of what causes the experience or what it means exactly.

Again, the idea is that if you want to know what happens when you die, ask a person who has been clinically dead. You could even take into account their opinion about what it all means.

If someone tells me something I've told them is impossible, I reply that I didn't say that it was possible, only that it was true.

Just to add from my last post in this thread

I appreciate honest skeptics because they can provide a source of rational discourse about subjects such as many urban myths. I also believe that they are quite right to challenge any aspect of psi that makes no sense to them. I want to know what seems nonsensical because it is precisely what seems nonsensical that needs more light shed upon it.

There are some areas, however, that I will simply have to disagree on. I disagree with the tenet held by many skeptics that if something cannot be explained by the current scientific paradigm then it is not worthy of exploration. There are still things that exist that science cannot explain.

Take it as however you like it.

It is indeed stupid to say that science can currently explain everything.

But that doesn't mean that what science already knows is false. Although this is an extreme example, you don't need to know calculus to calculate that 1+1=2.

I still don't know why you are still using simple math and comparing/using it with all your arguments of science and psi, it would make more sense if you used something like variables such as xy7 = 5 - 6yz = 70 because what you are mentioning are kind of like variables instead of 1 + 1 = 2. The stuff we talk about isn't just as simple as 1 +1 = 2

And of course it doesn't take a genius to know 1 + 1 = 2 is simple math and not calculus.

I am not going for accuracy here, I'm just trying to demonstrate a point, which is that you don't need to know everything to know something small.

For most part I use 1+1=2 just to give an example of something that is 100% sure.

I see what you are saying fair enough.

Greetings Wombat

I am sorry if you get the opinion that I think you "unstoppable behemoth with unflexible ideas ".
I did not say that, and wouldn't because I dont know you.
When Psifox referenced that part of the post, the comment wasn't directed at YOU, but the personal opinion of the author about Keith Augustine's anti NDE article.
Psifox just used that, wrongly, to associate the comments with you, although that may be his own personal opinion.
They are not shared by me.
If I may make a personal observation though, when you make comments like "complete crap", you open yourself up to some negative scrutiny.
You raise some interesting concerns, mainly about financial benefit, but don't you think Penn and Teller ain't making money off their foolery?
The issue about books and financial gain has been a hotbutton topic with NDE'rs as well.
Some consider it sacraledge to seek monitary gain for their "story", others want to tell the world about their insights, and this can't be done for free.
After all we do live in the Materialistic Paradigm do we not?
Personally, I don't worry about what others do, I more or less do what the universe shows me to do, which some day may include writing a book.
If it is any consolation, most NDe'rs that I do know that have written a book, donate most of the proceeds to charity.
Now i realize you don't have much knowledge of NDe's, which is why i responded to your post.
I myself had an NDe 6 years ago, and have studied this subject extensively.

There is some interesting work currently being done by Rick Strassmann on the effects of DMT, which is a naturally occuring chemical of the penal gland of the brain.
Strassmann posits that when we die the brain releases more DMT...to protect the brain in times of crisis.
Whether this has an effect on experiences remains to be seen.
Even more interesting is that Strassmann thinks that the amount of naturally occuring DMT in the brain is regulated by stomach acids.
I found this most interesting being a shaman, because when you go on a "Vision Quest" you fast for 7 days. No food, only water.
Most people that are familiar with Vision Quests and have done one report very spiritual type connections to other dimmensions, animals, nature...usually by the fifth day they begin to see "visions".
This would tend to agree with Strassmann, as by the fifth dya of no eating, the body would slow down the process of stomach acids therefore increasing the DMT levels in the brain thereby creating the visions.
From what I am gathering it appears consciousness is layered and there are many levbels of consciousness, some available to us while we are in the body, some become available as we leave the body, all available once we die.
You are correct that the NDE shouldn't be a "tell all' of what happens, and I am in full agreement that we only see a glimpse of what is to come.
I suggest the book "The Tibetian Book of Living and Dying" if you are interesed in researching this subject further.
Also, if you have any questions i will be mnore than willing to try to answer them.

Blessings

Well
I can see that no other input is needed from me here...Turtle has said everything that i could possiby say...and more.

The fact is that no one knows what happens to us when we die ....how can we ?
But there is enough evidence there to at least support the theory that conscience can exist outside the body , if this is true then we dont need a body and if we dont need a body well then maybe just maybe we do go on existing after our physical death.
NDE is one area where there's good evidence , Mediums and Psychics (even though i have never been a fan and urge extreme scepticism with them) seem to get it right now and again.......It's the "one white crow" scenario isn't it ?
It only takes one white Crow to prove all crows are not black....so it could be with afterlife evidence.
To write off the theory completely is just lazy IMO and does a disservice to the thousands of legitimate researchers the world over.
Bogey

How do you ask about death, when you do not yet understand life?

---Confucius when asked about death

Science justifies it's logic based on proof. But proof implies certain laws of logic. Who is to say what logic is in the first place that certain proof can justify it? Science requires faith to agree with as well. Faith in the way it applies it's method to discover truths and that it's method is a means to finding out truths.

Therin lies the rub!!

So you don't think all those nde's could me massive halluniations as the brain suffocates turtle?

What i think is irrelevent.
What do you feel?

Well so far, i believe it's not just a hallucination. But i still believe what nde people say to be a small part of the picture. But i don't necesarily believe that all astral projectors are being truthfull about what they talk about.

Now that's a refreshing attitude that I love to see.
Your thinking isn't fixed and is subject therefore to growth and expansion.
Enjoy your journey.

Blessings

When you die, your mind experiences wild hallusionations from the lack of oxygen (I have done a mild form of it by holding my breath long enough, by forcing my breath into my mouth as hard as I can without opening it), then stops. There is no soul, there is your body, the complex computer that is the brain and the parts of the brain that control your emotions (which were aqquired for the purpose of survival; the human race would be gone if no one had a reason to live). Your body becomes a bloated corpose, then rots into a pile of musty bones. I don't know what it would be like to be dead, but it would most likely be similar to eternal, dreamless sleep. I wish this wasn't the truth, but I see no other choice that has documented proof.

Also, regarding religion: Religions contridict each other, so it is most likely that they are all wrong.

Stupid poll!

Live after death? NO! No such thing!

Truth about aliens? YES! They are out there that's for sure!

How could you merge two absolutely different topics into one poll ?

I could explain, but I see your busy there practicing your meditation techniques.
Carry on

A radio Interview with Anita M of the aforementioned NDE .
Anita , two of her Doctors and the interviewer.
http://radio.dnauniversal.com/