Maybe in your world that is what Faith means. To me, Faith is something else. When I go to work in the moring, I may or may not have Faith that the train will be in on time. If my Faith in the rail system is strong, I will leave at a normal time to get to work by 8:30. If I have no Faith in the rail system, I will wake up half an hour earlier and make sure that even if a train is late I will still be in on time. This act of Faith is not a result of me "denying what my senses tell me is true", but it is rather an action based on something that I know with relative certainty is true. My experience with the rail system 18 months ago was not good. 90% of trains were running late in Sydney, and I had no Faith in the system. This lack of Faith was based on my observation of the rail system as it ran on a day-to-day basis. And so when going to uni I allowed extra time to get to my classes on time. However, in today's world, trains mostly run on schedule, with only minor delays mostly. As such, my Faith in the rail system has been restored and I don't usually worry about getting up for an early train. Again, this decision based on Faith in the rail system stems from my observation of the rail system as it currently exists.

I see my Faith in God in a similar way. This is not me denying what I know to be true and jumping to the conclusion that God exists. My Faith is not in the existence of God, but in the character of God. Through my experiences of God, my observation has led me to believe that the most reasonable course is that the Bible's version of God is accurate. And so going on these observations of mine, I have now put Faith in that God, not despite the evidence, but because of it.

~ PA

I will say I certainly respect your right and your faith to love your neighbor, as your self, in the name of the christ and god that compel such compassion.

I remember the Menahoth and passages 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman or a slave. And I think what that faith means for women, gentiles or slaves for that matter, in the eyes of one that prays in such a way, to the creator they believe made everyone.

And while faith is personal, religious institution is divisive, by nature. So I don't accept that I am obligated to love a pedophile for being a fellow human being first, just like myself. I believe, if I love them for being human, I then enable their deviant behavior against children. The same goes for rapists, murderers, etc...

As an Atheist I accept no god exists, and as such no man made admonition in it's name applies to my world, as I live my life in it. I've read the bible and I don't believe it logical to believe it possible to love everyone, so as to please god, when god that is said to be so pleased by such compliance to that emotion for all people, does not love everyone. Nor does he express in his admonitions that loving everyone is the creed of the believer in him. So while the believer may love everyone, so as to not disgrace their own capacity to be loved, I believe loving a pedophile that is first and always a fellow human being, is loving disease and the rapist of children. And I love love far to much, to ever insult it by giving it to someone that loves to rape children. I love love far to much to ever give it to someone that loves to use their body as a weapon against women, so I do not and never shall love a rapist. And I do not believe, in holding this personal creed, that it in any way slights who I am as a lovable human being. I believe rather it declares a standard that says I have a moral obligation not to love those that do not know what love is. And just because they're human doesn't mean that they are deserving of respect, after they trespass and violate what should be a given respect for the innocence of a child, or the sanctity of a womans body. I believe if I love everyone, I water down what love means, and instead make it a blanket application for everyone that exists. And I don't believe that everyone that exists would even know what love is, so as to appreciate it when it is given, when they prove they don't even know what love means, as they take their hands and lay them on a child or a woman, so as to rape them. Or on a weapon so as to take the life, with the potential to love for many years to come. I don't believe love is given away so cheaply. And while I do not believe in god, I am of the opinion that god does not prove he loves everyone either. So living up to pleasing that, which itself is not capable of the passion for everyone regardless, as I see it, is not a matter of holding faith in a god that does not rule by example, in that respect. So then, to declare one must love everyone, in the name of god, is in effect teaching god what it needs to learn about itself. And I didn't think that was the responsibility of those that believe in that supreme power, which they serve as sinful seed of it's creation.

There is not a person on this forum that cannot create life. Does this make us all gods?
All one needs is oxygen, water and sunshine...the trinity, if you will.
Adaptation and evolution will do the rest....imo.

wrong, there is a huge difference in the creation of life, and having sexy with a person. i wouldnt classify this as godlike.

I would like to see you create life from the nonliving. It isn't so easy.

How can a man create new life...meaning a baby human??? how is that possible??

A man can only HELP with his lil ingredient lol...but he cant possibly do the rest

which reminds me the men are the lucky ones...they reap the fun from it all..the women are the ones to suffer for 9 months...BAH!!!

IF you are talking about man creating life from a plant...well gee anyone can grow a plant or should i say plant a seed...throw it some water and bobs very much your uncle

So you only believe in loving those who deserve to be loved? If it is good enough for one human then why not for all? Who are we to judge? No one is perfect but everyone is a human.

Yes, I am saying that. Because I treasure true love, and don't believe everyone is deserving of it because not everyone would appreciate it. Look at the world stage. Does it appear that everyone that you may think deserve love , for being human, feel the same way, about everyone, because they are humans!?


Because it is unrealistic to imagine someone can love everyone, simply because everyone is human. There are some incredibly depraved people in this world. People literally born without a conscience, for instance. They can kill you and your entire family and never ever regret the act. Are they worthy of love, when they aren't even possessed of compassion or empathy!? And how would they appreciate the emotion of love, directed toward them, when they aren't even conscious of emotion, to appreciate any of it in the first place!?



I'll share something on the subject with you, from Anton LaVey. A Satanist. If you believe everyone is worthy of love, then this is an observation of what that actually says, of love.

Excerpt from part 5, Love and Hate ~ from the Satanic Bible Lucifer chapter.

"You cannot love everyone; it is ridiculous to think you can. If you love everyone and everything you lose your natural powers of selection and wind up being a pretty poor judge of character and quality. If anything is used to freely it loses it's true meaning. Therefore, the Satanist believes you should love strongly and completely those who deserve your love, but never turn the other cheek to your enemy!

Love is one of the most intense emotions felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional ailments. By learning to release your hatred toward those that deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.
There has never been a great "love" movement in the story of the world that hasn't wound up killing countless numbers of people, we must assume, to prove how much they loved them. Every hypocrite who ever walked the earth has had pockets bulging with love. Every Pharisaical religionist claims to love his enemies, even though when wronged he consoles himself by thinking, "God will punish them." Instead of admitting to themselves that they are capable of hating foes and treating them in the manner they deserve, they say: "There but for the grace of God, go I," and "pray" for them. Why should we humiliate and lower ourselves by drawing such inaccurate comparisons?

..... By honestly recognizing and admitting to both the hate and the love he feels, there is no confusing one emotion with the other. Without being able to experience one of those emotions, you can not fully experience the other."

Interesting OP. My problem with it is that pre-existing belief precludes both observed evidence and the true testimonies of others.

That is, once you firmly believe something, you tend to be blind to, or ignore, evidence which clearly supports any opposing view. It usually takes an extreme scenario and tons of incontrovertible evidence to change the mind of either a committed believer or a non believer. In my case my knowledge (not belief) is based on the same real evidence that supports my knowledge of the effects of gravity or UV light. Actually, more like the evidence that i have a brother. Quite tangible cause and effects, observable outcomes etc. Just because some of these run counter to the known laws of physics is not enough to deny them, or their validity.

Oh really we reap all the fun while women suffer for 9 months? I'm sorry Becky put I will have inform you us poor men have to suffer the women while they are pregnant which mean we suffer terrible consequences



Also we have to hold the women's hand while they giving birth........... our hands are never the same again

Who cares about what organized religion has to say about it. When one loves all and only loves how can any harm enter him? I never said you should never experience the other emotions but true love is beyond emotion. It starts off as an act of will and ends as a serene detachment which is universally open to all things. True love doesnt judge whether one is good or bad because it has gone beyond good and bad.

Love is unconditional kindness --Jalal-uddin Rumi

I myself havn't reached such an ideal but i recognize that it is there and can be acheived and that certain sages and mystics have achieved it. Emotional love is always bias because it reacts only to what stirs the emotion up. True love looks upon all things with an equal eye because all things are the same thing which is universal energy consciousness or Tao.

Also anton lavey looks at love from a very eye for an eye perspective which contradicts love itself.

That you have faith in an unproven ideal doesn't make it achievable, and there is no 'evidence' anyone has ever achieved this state you speak of. To love all one must know all and you'll have a hard time showing that this has happened for anyone.

Ramana Maharshi achieved it. Look him up.




All is energy and all energy is infinite consciousness. So one only needs to know the one infinite consciousness to know all else.

The burden of proof is on you, my friend. You claimed sages and mystics achieved this state. Nothing I can find in the details of Ramana Maharshi's life indicate he did, in fact achieve it.



How can one know anything infinite?

Sex? :Dlol! That's your spin on what I wrote...

The planet we call home is a living organism... My statement stands true - anyone can create life...
Get yourself a glass of water, set it in the sunshine, a short time later algae will have formed... you've just created a lifeform. It's actually quite easy to do...; )

See above...I'm creating a plant from water, oxygen and sunshine... We all can. It's no big deal and can be a pita if you own an acquarium that sits in the sun... Thing is - what is created is still a *life*form...

Wouldn't you agree, "god like", would necessarily entail procreative powers!?

Great post and great quote.

I agree completely. Why is there even a need for "burden of proof" I don't have to prove to a Christian that God doesn't exist. I know for me he doesn't. And if he did I wouldn't follow him anyway.

Christians don't need to prove to me that God exists. I know for them he DOES exist. They have proven it to themselves. They don't need to prove it to anyone else.

Well look harder.



By realizing his true nature.

This seems a bit like a wasted thread. The two sides can never agree because neither will ever accept the others position. I believe Fr. Corapi summarizes it nicely "Faith precedes belief." I know beyond all doubt that God exists. Conversely, a non-believer cannot be moved because there is no shred of Faith to build upon. The issue really lies in the type of proof. I can see God's hand nearly every day, but others would classify what I see as happen chance or what have you.

Ya creation itself is evidence enough that infinity exists.

One would easily say death is evidence enough that the finite exists. Perhaps you can explain further, what you mean.

How is death evidence that the finite exists? It is simply a change. It too is part of infinity. Death is evidence to back infinity and not the other way around.

Finite can only exist insofar as infinity does and vice versa. However infinity is greater by it's very nature because it has no end or beginning or limitaton. Finite is contained in the infinite. Finite does exist but so does infinite but infinite is always actually always greater because of its limitless nature.

Actually true infinity transcends both finite and infinite because it is beyond all opposites. Calling infinite infinite is limiting it to the word infinite when infinite is beyond limits. So the concept of infinity is the same as the concept finite but actual infinity is greater than both the concept of finite and infinity.

Everything finite in this world is a concept and is a thought in the brain and the brain too is itself a thought translated by consciousness. So consciousness or awareness is the only thing we can be certain of and the nature of consciousness and awareness is still an enigma to both science and religion.

Also let me add that nothing cant exist for the very reason that if you say something doesnt exist you contradict yourself because if something doesnt exist then it wouldnt exist in the first place to deny. The subconscious does not know the difference between what it thinks and what it sees and therefore thereis no difference between what we see and concept.

Therefore EVERYTHING exists including both the infinite and finite. The finite however only exists because of the infinite that transcends both the finite and infinite.

Tell me one thing that doesn't exist, brave. I'm sure you can think of it.

I cant do it. Im sorry but to do so would be contradicting myself.

No, you don't actually know that death is the end.

I agree. We dont know what happens after death therefore it is an act of faith either way to say it is an end or a new beginning.

As socrates says:

The fear of death is indeed the pretense of wisdom, and not real wisdom, being a pretense of knowing the unknown. . . . and no one knows whether death which men in their fear apprehend to be the greatest evil, may not be the greatest good...