i realized not too long ago that when i was 13 and was "saved", i wasnt really saved. i went through the motions because i was scared of hell.

the bible doesnt talk a whole lot about hell. my take is that hell is the absence of god and eternity living with what could have been. not physical torture.

i think christians need to stop trying to scare people into false beliefs, and encourage through explainations of their personal experiences and happiness.

another thing is that christianity is so obsessed with their church (the building itself) and increasing the numbers of that church. it has become a competition. this is crazy.

I agree!
Nice to know that your ability to think is not boxed up inside the bible. I've gained some respect for you during these past few hours.

I don't want to turn this thread into another debate, but I just want to say...
Personal experiences and happiness like what you imply, can be found in most likely the same thing, given many different names by many different people.

God/Jesus, Allah, Goddess, Tao, Universe, Elvis, etc.
All different manifestations in the minds of different humans of the same thing.
That is my belief, I try not to get caught up in the details added by men who write books on it.

i agree, that many people focus on too many details in the bible, instead of looking at its overall purpose.

it was written by men, not faxed by god from heaven.

ive throught about the "different paths to the same goal" thing, its interesting but i havent made up my mind on the subject

the major religions sure do have alot in common...

Dude, you need to come down to my neighborhood.
You'd have a seizure.
Seems like the churches in this town try to outdo each other by moving into bigger and more opulent buildings.
One church just spent almost $10 million building a new "worship complex".
Completely crazy.

Indeed... So much money spent on unnecessary and completely excess visual luxuries to lure people in, which would be better spent on helping the needy...

gods original desire wasnt a building. now dont get me wrong, if you want to get together with friends and share ideas and worship together thats great, but its not neccesary to have a relationship with god.

Oh, I am so tempted to convert you to my way of thinking, but since I don't proselytize, I'll leave ya be.

its useless, i assure you. but your free to try. your problem is that youve got your head wrapped around stereotypes. you gotta let it go.

Naw, not big on stereotypes. Just know Christians, sprouted like a beautiful weed out of a bunch of 'em.
And like I said I don't proselytize. Just tell people to ignore what the book says and look inside for the answers and leave it at that.

It is important to keep in mind there is a wide gulf between the organized religions, sects, and cults which claim to be Christianity, and the personal spiritual walk which is also known as Christianity.

If you're focusing on the "religion" you will see exactly what you would expect to see from an organization formed by man in a vain attempt to make his own way to God: hypocrisy, corruption, anger, fear, pride, etc.

Christianity is an individual, personal, immediate, constant, relationship with God made initially possible through Christ's sacrifice for our sins, and maintained by the guiding presence of the Holy Spirit.

have you actually read the bible? or at least the words of jesus?

ive found that alot of people (not saying you in particular) have found the bible difficult to read and interprit, so they get frustrated and throw it down.



well put

God, I hate even halfway agreeing with you.
I agree with most of the first two sentences. Just need to change that last sentence to say: "Spirituality is an individual, personal, immediate, constant, relationship with a Higher Power made initially possible through careful assessment of one's own conscience, and maintained by constant listening to the same." and that's what I believe.
So close yet so many arguments.

Like I said, I grew up in a Christian family, so yeah, I've read it cover to cover at least twice. Jesus had a great philosophy, for the most part, then Paul and others had to come along behind him and screw it up.

Excellent and to the point! Couldn't have said it better myself!

christianity is the belief that christ is the manifestation of god and that he suffered to give us a chance to accept him and be remorseful of our sins.

my initial consideration of christianity was after the birth of my son

at least you can accept that the philosophy of christ is virtuous.

No problem with that.
Like I said, Jesus was the first hippie, a real cool cat. Honestly, I think he taught a religion of love and later writers with political motives inserted the ideas of Heaven and Hell to control believer's behaviors. Boil what Jesus was really saying down to the essence of it and all you get is one commandment: "Love one another." Everything else is just extraneous BS.

Man, if you're halfway, I'm already succeeding!! *smiles evilly while rubbing hands together*

Yes, there is still a significant gulf between our beliefs.

i cant deny that mankind has meddled with the bible alot, but i wouldnt call the rest of jesus message bs

LOL. Don't get excited, that's what I have always believed. I haven't moved an inch.
And yes, there is a gulf. You look up, I look in, but both of us are really looking for the same thing.

Sorry, this may be the beginning of the argument, but the difference I see is that I am no longer looking, I have been found.

What else was there to his message but "love one another"? That is all he kept saying in different ways. The concept of salvation and damnation doesn't even fit in with his core philosophy. He preached love, then at the same time said that most of the world would burn? Hmmmmm. Makes no sense in any way shape or form.

Wouldn't be our first. But let me clarify.
When faced with a moral dilemma you look up, metaphorically speaking, towards heaven, towards God for the answer, correct?
When I am faced with the same, I look inside to my conscience, to the morality that I have defined for myself for the answer.

burn is a little harsh, perhaps "lake of fire" is a little more metaphoric. hell is the absence of god and the eternal thought of what might have been. but i see it as reasonable that god could go on a "punishment fitting the crime" philosophy. you have to admit that alot of people deserve to burn in a lake of fire.

his message was to know and learn and share your life experience with god. love the creator. the rest will follow suit.

if you are looking to your conscience, you are asking god
question is, how does your morality compare to gods?
odds are they might be similiar....

Brother, I got a list of people that need to burn that is as long as the Bible. LOL.
Yes, that's what I am saying. Jesus preached to honor God by honoring and loving your fellow man. That just goes back to the point I made either on this thread or the other one, of living your life for God by living your life to the fullest.

There is no where in the Bible that Man will burn in hell for eternity. Quite the opposite actually. Hell was created for Satan and his angels. The Bible talks about the 'punishment' being eternal. And it says that those who were not found in the Book of Life were cast into the lake of fire and refers to it as...the second death...the death of the soul.

of course. but you have to accept that maybe some things that you do is wrong. thats the core of christianity, admiting your faults, and asking forgiveness for the bad decisions you make

The possible problem here is you're considering your conscience to be god's morality, but at the same time are considering the bible to be god's morality.
The bible wins you over with the added detail of salvation, correct?

right, unfortunately most christians try to scare people into believing what they do, or tempt them with blessings from god.

Right, I am asking that "still small voice", I think the quote goes.
I find God, and my God's morality within me, not within the pages of some book.
I can actually remember my fundie-preacher grandfather preaching a sermon on not going against your conscience once.
Would be pretty funny if that contributed to the development of my philosophy, since I loathe the man.
Anyway, to answer your last question: I'm sure a good part of my morality is close to Christianity's since that is the environment I was raised in. However, the older and more experienced at life I get, the more my morality is in flux. It isn't written in stone, but depends on the situation and various factors other than "Will this piss God off?" My main concerns are usually:
Will my actions severely physically or emotionally injure anyone?
Can I live with myself if I do this?

if youve never seen heaven, you dont KNOW that it exists. people dont radically alter their whole lives over something that might not exist.

this is exactly what the bible says to do, in this order:

seek the knowledge, read and study the bible

through this book, god will touch your heart.

salvation isnt something you can look at and say "ohhhh, i want that!" and then do what the bible says to get it.

But I don't ask forgiveness of God explicitly, I have to forgive myself for the wrongs I have done. Again, by living my life to the hilt and at the same time attempting to be the best person I can, I believe I honor God to His/Her/It's satisfaction.

man, you pretty much are a christian, whether you want to admit it or not. at least you question your actions. this is god in your life. you feel guilty.

I believe God has touched my heart through other means, without the 2000-year-old middle-man.

see, your acting like god expects you to just be perfect

he knows if you are genuinely trying to do the right thing, and i promise you, christianity wouldnt alter your life being lived

"middleman?" its just a guide to inspire you, learn from, and help you to live your life. to help reassure your faith when you doubt. to seek answers when your stuck

This is probably correct.


Perhaps it is not he that is a Christian, but both of you that are humans.

Ah, so insulting! LMAO jk.
I see what you're saying. I have a good Christian's habit of self-assessment. I just refer to it as spirituality. I don't believe in labeling myself as a Christian since
1) I was never, and never will be, baptized.
2) I got bits and pieces of everything from Buddhism to Nihilism floating around in here. LOL.

No, I act as if God knew what He was doing when He made me. Sure, I'll screw up, I'm human, but God knows that and forgives me for it.
And yeah Christianity would alter my life. So many fun things I would have to give up...excessive drinking, whoring, gambling, the list is long.

first, christianity is spirituality. anything you explore beyond the physical world is spirituality.

i have never been baptized either, thats one aspect of this i havent explored yet.

other religions have plenty of good phlilosophical guidelines. they are very similar to christianity.

ive done all of those things too, and for me, i had to find happiness just being me. i still drink and smoke weed every now and then, ive never been turned on to gamling though. i think everyone whores. i did until i met my wife. you should try being happy for a while without all that.

Can't. Make my living by playing poker.
Would actually have to get a job *shudders*.
And that is all I am doing: finding happiness being me. Me is just free of outside constraints.

i dont personally think gambling would be wrong if you didnt let it rule your life. if you played it for fun. does the bible talk about gambling specifically?
jobs suck but theyre a part of life your gonna have to accept

Not specifically, but it comes under that umbrella heading of "Things that distract you from God".
And it doesn't rule my life. I play it like a regular job, five days a week, 8 hours a day. Do I think about poker all the time? Well, yeah, but that is because I love it. Never felt as home as I do sitting at a table.
And I don't think I was built for a job. LOL. Wrote incessantly, working on novels and short stories before I found cards. Still do write some, not much though.

okay, you still havent explained to me where christianity would deter your life drastically. people make livings alot of different ways.

Well, I would have to give up gambling, smoking, drinking, swearing, running around half naked when the mood strikes me, sex (since I decided I am not getting married a third time), and basically every other thing I enjoy. I even feel I would have to give up writing, since most of the ideas I have and work on push the envelope of decency and sanity.

you would not have to give up gambling, if its more of a profession as you say, i smoke and drink, but its in moderation and responsibly done. i swear, its just a habit, and ive never heard the bible say its bad. maybe it does. i think its just words. you should keep your clothes on though. sex is fine, just find a woman, form a bond with her and get married. sex is probably the hardest sin to resist, so your not alone there. anything else?

Smoking and drinking are wrong, according to the Bible since the body is God's temple and those things defile it. And nope, not being dumb enough to get married again. LOL. So I guess that just seals it for me.
Anything else?
Well, outright evil thoughts, usually brought on by pornography.

i make an honest attempt to veer away from those things, but i fail sometimes. i ask forgiveness. whats so hard about that? you cant be happy with yourself until you can learn to live without anything. once you can be happy just being you, thats happiness