Has anyone ever thought that Satan and this is what i believe looks just like a normal man he does not look like a dragon or anything maybe he's said to look like a dragon or demon looking t have people fear him. but really we shouldn't fear him. Anyways i believe he was or is a angel that maybe betrayed God so was sent to Hell or God apponted him to watch over hell or something, personally i think he was a angel who betrayed God because you hear of possesions things people suggest the "devil" is responsible for which i believe. but i believe he looks like a normal man or woman you never know

The Bible plainly states that the highest heavenly servants, sometimes even referred to as the Sons of God, are fiery flying serpents in the Hebrew Text. Later when the ancient Rabbis translated the Hebrew into Greek, they were called by their Greek name, "Drakons". Now someone with a little common sense might put the fact that Drakons surround the throne of God in the Old Testament, and that Satan is called a Drakon in the News Testament..... but no, that might require too much thinking.... Instead come up with some nonsense that he was originally Pan", because 1500 years after the Bible was written some renaissance artists started painting him like Pan.

Stephen King. "IT". Heck yeah.

The whole point of this thread is where does satan's CURRENT look come from, so if someone wants to forward the point that the CURRENT look,(how he is portrayed NOW) comes from Pan or any other horned god then that is a valid view. This is not a debate about the biblical origins ,(or otherwise)of the devil. As a pagan I don't believe in him anyway, Turtles why not?
Or he could have had a tragic accident involving a goat and a tin of red paint. Comedy-trauma Simpsons style!

No disrespect meant to my Christian brothers and sisters tho'......

But you miss the point. Christians sincerely believe there is some ancient historical validity in their "cartoon satan". I am just showing them that there is not. And no one has yet been able to dispute this fact.

No I'm not missing the point DC. I just think, "Why bother?"

We will all find out in time who is right or wrong.

No one on this topic or on this forum is allowed to say someone is right or wrong because no one knows the truth none of us have died seen satan or been to heaven and seen DC's flying serpants so none of us no the truth we believe in what we want to believe whether it be right or wrong no one can say we are wrong

Wrong again. It is possible to state a person is "wrong" if he makes the statement that ancient Christians believed Satan looked like Pan, or was Pan. There is no historical evidence to support this, while there is plently of evidence that this idea was made popular by Renaissance painters.

The Bible says Satan is a dragon. The Bible also says the creatures that surround God's throne are fiery flying serpents. So you are not saying I am wrong, you are saying the Bible is wrong.

But it is your right to believe the Bible is wrong, Adcox. I agree with you that the Bible is sometimes wrong, but not about the dragons. The Bible got that part right.

OMG you just never... for one i never said you were wrong and i never said the bible is wrong i said we don't know who is wrong because none of us have died and seen this ourselves or God himself tell us so u may be very wrong but i am not saying that or i could be very wrong but i don't care because i believe in it. For 2 you can't say someone is wrong if what they say is what they believe in, thats like going up to a Chinese monk and telling him he has it all wrong you don't do it because it is disrespectful on someones belief. Do u see what i'm saying. for three i am not christian, so that is not why i believe Satan is a "pan" i have my own reasons. Also i do not believe everything i read i believe dragons existed but do not believe them as to be protectors as i said in a other topic. Like i said i don't believe everything i read because the bible is not a factual encyclipedia it is a book of stories, stores have been changed through the centeries so not all of the information found is factual but i still believe it because of faith but not all of it. So basically because you say and the bible says Satan is in a apearence of a flying serpant or dragon does not mean i have to think so, God gave Humankind an incredible mind one capable of thinking on our own believng in what we want to believe in. So its like you saying Jesus only looks a certain way robes long beard etc. the typical Jesus look. But does that mean that is how i view my lord maybe i see Jesus on the street corner as a normal man or as someone in need of help. So what if i see satan as being a man a regular guy its the same way i see my lord. Does it really effect u so much that you have to tell people their beliefs are wrong. And one last thing "The Bible was written by man"

Now u think about what i wrote before bashing on me

Someone has already taken your idea to its conclusion. He wants his God to be the Flying Spagetti Monster and so it is, and he has made quite an industry of it. But unlike him, I can use the earliest written texts in the world to show why there are dragons in the Bible, and in human beliefs all around the world. If you cannot see the difference, I'm sorry.

Demons??? This is a pagan greek nonsense practically non-exisitent in the Bible before Alexander the Great brough pagan Greek religious ideas to the land of Israel. And what are construed as demons in the Holy Torah are actually the other "sons of God" that were appointed by the creator to look after the various tribes of people, just as Yahweh was the personal God/Watcher of Israel.

Most serious Biblical scholars state Lucifer never exsted, this is a Christian invention hundreds of years after the time of Jesus. This is why the Jews or Jesus NEVER mentions Lucifer. These passages refer to both the Prnce of Tyre and the King of Babylon, neither of which are angels, but are political rivals and enemies of ancient Israel.

With the lucifer nonsense gone, there is nothing in the Bible about Satan's appearance except that he is described as a dragon in the New Testament, and Christians also claim he the serpent in the Garden of Eden. He is never said to be an angel but counted among the sons of God in the book of Job. These are undoubtedly the highest of heavenly creatures, the Seraphim, whcih means fiery flying serpents in Hebrew, and translated by the ancient Jews themselves to Drakons, the greek word meaning dragon.

Interestingly, the Sumerian God who created the Garden of Eden is Enki, who is described as a "Great Serpent Dragon of Heaven", so maybe the new Testamant is right about the dragon imagery of Satan. The Old testament Satan though is not connected with the GArden of Eden, and is God's obedient servant, NOT his opponent, which is another Christian invention. . In ancient Jewish texts he is also a serpent or dragon that God commands to swallow Moses, but orders Satan to spew Moses up again, when his wife circumcises Moses Son just in the neck of time. These Sumerian dragon Gods look much like the modern conception, with a long neck, long tail, four clawed feet, scaly body and wings.

The blue Statan with three mouths is purely the invention of Dante, as his his whole concept of Hell. In Early Christian scriptures, like the Apocolypse of Baruch, Hell is not an underground place in imitation of the Greek Hades, but the bellies of the huge dragons in heaven (also the Seraphim?) who consume the souls of sinners. By far, the most common depictions of Satan before Dante's book was that of a red dragon, sometimes with seven heads, but just as often with just one head. But the rest of these dragons were still regarded as heavenly creatures as well. God is depiected in many medieval Bibles riding on the back of one of his dragon servants called a cherub, though now these have evolved into ridiculous fat baby angels.

Medieval and renaissance artists would portray Satan as a goatlike Satyr, from Greek mythology, but the horns, red leotards and pointed spade tail actually stems from the "Red Dragon of Revelation". The iron of the dragon identity, which is probably the most accurate, is the fact that all of the rest of these Seraphim that work for God are also these same "dragons".

Someone has already taken your idea to its conclusion. He wants his God to be the Flying Spagetti Monster and so it is, and he has made quite an industry of it. But unlike him, I can use the earliest written texts in the world to show why there are dragons in the Bible, and in human beliefs all around the world. If you cannot see the difference, I'm sorry.

I have to disagree with you on this. Satan is referenced in the bible. Before Jesus was crucified satan was with him in the desert telling him if he was the son of God to and who he said he was then he should rise up against his enemies and destroy them.

I can count about 30 times in this thread when you are using warped logic. You act like you know everything and most of it is just your opinion and you argue if it differs from yours.

Please try to understand what i'm writting before posting as i said in my last line the Bible and all forms of text are written by man meaning who ever wrote it never would have known if what they were writing is true because they were not dead yet. You see what i'm saying the Bible and all text was not written by GOd himself, Jesus, or a angel so there is no way we know if it is truethere is no ay you can prove it unless u tell me u died went to heaven and came back to post on a forum. For one i am not the same religion as you obviously so why do i have to view satan your way and think your way is right. You see what you are doing is spreading the word of what you think is right so your basically preaching to all of us who have all different religious backgrounds its like your converting us. I don't care if someone thinks the same i do and i don't see satan as a flying spagetti monster you just added that line in there because you know i'm right. As said i don't believe everything i read the bible is a book of stories not facts stories which change throughout the year

Now really read over this make sure you fully understand before bashing on me
Thankyou

You really don't understand. This isn't about preaching beliefs. It is simply about showing people what the Bible actually says, not an invented mythology that is not in the Bible at all. It is two very different things, but you don't seem to understand the difference.

No, I don't think you are right about anything here. By believing Ancient Christians "thought Satan was Pan" without any evidence they ever believed this, it is no different than claiming God is a flying spagetti monster, also without any evidence. On the contrary, I can provide ancient evidence for anything I say here, or I wouldn't be saying it. True, that doesn't mean I am 100% right, but I have a better chance at being right than you saying "Satan looks like a regular guy in a black business suit becasue I saw him on the Twilight Zone. Do you "get it" yet?

Okay, show me just one place where you can prove me wrong. I don't think you know enough aobut the Bible to do this. Modern Christian mythology: yes. Real Bible? No.

Show me that ancient eveidence and pove that the ancient evidence is correct show me that your right and everyone else is wrong, because it seems you are the only person who knows the truth, if somebody has a different view than you they are wrong as u see it. You are a very ignorant not accepting anybody's beliefs and opinions except yours. Most of the worst people in history have had attitudes like yours. So tell us your story explain why you are right and the world is wrong, tell me the meaning of life, tell me what church u belong to or what university you attended or how you obtained your "knowledge" explain why you are such a a** please i want to know why your opinion is the only one exceptable i want to know why you are always right. Were you around back then? or did some guy tell another guy who told someone else who wrote it down then was altered over a few thousand of years then you read it and started saying it. Come on what do you do which makes you right. or are you some guy who sitts in his apartment surfing the web on dragons despiratley trying to find information on yur opinions and coming up with cheap comebacks because you know your wrong

I have proven it. The only ancient description of Satan's physical appearance in the Bible is a serpent or dragon, and apparently the Eden serpent supposedly had limbs and wings that were taken away as a punishment from God. The Bible is my evidence, and also other ancient Christian and Jewish scriptures not in the Bible. So this is my evidence. Show me yours. But Christians simply make up anything they don't like, or can't find in the Bible. That's why there is all of this nonsense about Satan being the most beautiful angel, chief musician, covering cherub, yadda yadda yadda. None of this nonsesense is in the Bible, it is modern Christian mythology, just like the black suit twilight zone Satan.

This is so interesting it probably also deserves another thread but i will respond here instead.

The idea that satan was never lucifer seems to have been promoted by, I assume, a fundamentalist/evangelical preacher who does not accept the fact that god gave all his creatures free will. The denial is based on the impossibility that a good angel, lucifer could become a fallen one, Satan. Yet everyhing we read about god and salvation prooves that indeed we were granted free will, as part of being created in the image of god.

Again, I returned to the bible for the truth. Now, while it is clear that the reference to lucifer In Isaiah 14 reflects a message about worldly governance, as with most bible writing there is an important symbolic and spiritual message running parralel Even a quick perusal brings up some interesting resonances.

How art though fallen from heaven Lucifer(not barred from heaven but fallen.) The closest textual reference to this is the fall of satan in Revelation.
V13 says, "Thou has said in thy heart I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of god."

Not only is this a physical impossibility for a human, even the earthly prince of tyre, but symbolically only one being has challenged god for supremacy of the governance of heaven. Only satan has both the expressed will/desire and the potential ability(at least to him) to do so.
Isaiah 14 goes on to a number of references linked sybolllically and prohetically with Revelation most significantly the role of babylon and the remnant of gods people.
Finally, there is this interesting verse"While all others will die and lie in glory," this entity will be cast out of a grave but brought down to hell to the sides of the pit.
This also reflects the fate of satan as outlined in revelation.
While not conclusive, and i admit based on a fairly singular reference to lucifer, this chapter contains enough information to strongly link satan and lucifer ,from their time as an angel in heaven, to their destruction in the last days.

Lucifer was supposedly one of the most beautiful 'creatures' known to human and god kind... What it is, is that when a 'heavenly' angel has to endure living on earth is obviously going to be pretty ugly to a human being. But, God judges not on beauty. The reason anyone human thinks Satan - no not Lucifer, but Satan is 'ugly' is because Satan is the part of Lucifer that lives on an earthly like plane of existence. Any angel that falls, or in other words..."gets kicked out" of Heaven...is ugly to humanity.

Seriously... Take the ugliest animals/insects/fish/birds whatever it is...and see past the beauty. Look at a vulture. It's a matter of how ugly you want to put the level of evil at, and then give it a look. We are all very advanced animals. See past the beauty, but not the evil.

Perhaps, but i am a christian( or a cultural approximation of one having grown up in a christian society) not a jew, and while i respect their beliefs there is a whole heap of difference in both their theology and their interpretation of the O.T texts.

While one cannot dispute who were the actual writers of these texts, ones relationship with god and perception of jesus alters their relevance. Christians see the new and old testament as a whole, with strong symbolic and prophetic resonances/connections betwen the two. I am not sure if the Jews see the OT as just a history, or how they connect religiously with it, but for christians there are layers of meaning running alongside the historical accounts of the jewish nation/tribes of israel.

To them it was not written exclusively for jews, anymore than god's covenant with his people was exclusively with the jewish people. I think the new testament even calls early christians children of israel, and the early christians worshipped on the same day and in the same temples as the jewish people of the time.

Okay, like you, the guys that mistranslated the passage about the Prince of Tyre being Lucifer were also Christian and got it wrong. The Jews speak hebrew fluently and can translate the Bible better than Latin speaking Christians from Rome. If Lucifer was real, Jesus and his apostles would mention him, but Lucifer was a later invention. Sorry. So the ONLY descripton of Satan in the whole Bible is "a fiery red dragon", and Christian stance that he is the serpent in the Garden of Eden, though this may be a dragon like creature since god supposedly took away his feet and wings. Ancient Jewsih texts do describe him as a serpent or dragon, when God orders him to swallow moses! I bet you never heard about that in Sunday School.

I have allready explained in past posts that the red dragon is a representation of the nations controled by Satan so I wont repeat that. The major question I have is where it says in Genesis that the serpent loses his wings? It does state legs and that the serpent would crawl on its belly as punishment for helping Satan con Eve but that is all. No wings are described. And the same for when Satan was to swallow Moses. I have never heard of it because neither are in the Bible.

And please dont change the subject just answer the questions.