Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums

Jor-el

May 27 2007, 10:35 PM

QUOTE

Christianity as we have come to know it emerged from Judaism in the first century of the Common Era. The first Christians were Jews, and likely subscribed to Jewish beliefs and practices common at the time. Among these was a belief that a messiah—a descendant of King David—would restore the monarchy and Jewish independence.

According to mainstream Jewish beliefs, the failure of Jesus to restore the Kingdom, and his crucifixion by Romans, negated claims that he was the messiah (since most Jews do not accept that Jesus was the messiah, they reject the use of the full (Christian) name. See the Jewish conception of the messiah for a more detailed discussion of the Jewish understanding of the messiah).

Nevertheless, many of Jesus's followers—perhaps inspired by encounters with Jesus after his crucifixion and entombment, but also drawing on alternative interpretations of Biblical passages—redefined the concept of messiah to encompass the resurrection and the promise of a second coming. In addition to this alternative understanding of the messiah, early Christians brought from Judaism its scriptures, fundamental doctrines such as monotheism, and other beliefs and practices.

Jewish eschatology is concerned with moschiach (the messiah) and Olam Haba (Hebrew for "the world to come"; i.e. the afterlife).
The Hebrew word 'moshiach' means 'anointed one,' and refers to a mortal human being. While Christians use the word "messiah" as well, they use it in a different way. For many Christians, God's ultimate miracle was His Self-Incarnation as a human being. In this view, God was both fully man and yet also fully human, both limited in intelligence and yet omniscient, simultaneously.

Philosophically and logically, these claims appear mutually incompatible. Yet the early church insisted that both truths be held together. See Christology, apophatic theology.

How can God die? This thinking has always been foreign to Judaism. Within Judaism, moshiach is a human being who will be a descendant of King David, and who will usher in a messianic era of peace and prosperity for Israel and all the nations of the world. The job description, as such, is this:

All of the people of Israel will come back to Torah
.
The people of Israel with be gathered back to the land of Israel.
.
The Holy Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt.
.
Israel will live among the nations as an equal, and will be strong enough to defend herself.
.
Eventually, war, hatred and famine will end, and an era of peace and prosperity will come upon the Earth.

The traditional Jewish understanding of the messiah is non-supernatural, and is best elucidated by Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon), in his commentary to tractate Sanhedrin, of the Babylonian Talmud. He writes:
"The Messianic age is when the Jews will regain their independence and all return to the land of Israel. The Messiah will be a very great king, he will achieve great fame, and his reputation among the gentile nations will be even greater than that of King Solomon. His great righteousness and the wonders that he will bring about will cause all peoples to make peace with him and all lands to serve him.... Nothing will change in the Messianic age, however, except that Jews will regain their independence. Rich and poor, strong and weak, will still exist. However it will be very easy for people to make a living, and with very little effort they will be able to accomplish very much.... it will be a time when the number of wise men will increase...war shall not exist, and nation shall no longer lift up sword against nation.... The Messianic age will be highlighted by a community of the righteous and dominated by goodness and wisdom. It will be ruled by the Messiah, a righteous and honest king, outstanding in wisdom, and close to God. Do not think that the ways of the world or the laws of nature will change, this is not true. The world will continue as it is. The prophet Isaiah predicted "The wolf shall live with the sheep, the leopard shall lie down with the kid." This, however, is merely allegory, meaning that the Jews will live safely, even with the formerly wicked nations. All nations will return to the true religion [monotheism, although not necessarily Judaism] and will no longer steal or oppress. Note that all prophecies regarding the Messiah are allegorical - Only in the Messianic age will we know the meaning of each allegory and what it comes to teach us. Our sages and prophets did not long for the Messianic age in order that they might rule the world and dominate the gentiles....the only thing they wanted was to be free for Jews to involve themselves with the Torah and its wisdom."

This principle is accepted by Orthodox Jews. Conservative Jews vary in their beliefs, some affirming a personal messiah, while others affirm a messianic era. "We do not know when the Messiah will come, nor whether he will be a charismatic human figure or is a symbol of the redemption of humankind from the evils of the world. Through the doctrine of a Messianic figure, Judaism teaches us that every individual human being must live as if he or she, individually, has the responsibility to bring about the messianic age. Beyond that, we echo the words of Maimonides based on the prophet Habakkuk (2:3) that though he may tarry, yet do we wait for him each day....(Since no one can say for certain what will happen) each of us is free to fashion personal speculation. Some of us accept these speculations are literally true, while others understand them as elaborate metaphors. [Emet ve-Emunah: Statement of Principles of Conservative Judaism, not a public domain work. Is this quote too extensive for use here?]

Reform Jews generally concur with this latter position; they are more likely to believe in a messianic era than a personal messiah. Reconstructionist Jews reject the idea that God can send a personal messiah or bring about a messianic age, but they do teach that man can use the power or process termed God to help bring about such a world.

See: Jewish Messiah

My question is simple. What are the reasons Jews give for the non-acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah?

Omnaka

May 28 2007, 12:19 AM

QUOTE(Jor-el @ May 27 2007, 10:35 PM) [snapback]1696831[/snapback]

See: Jewish Messiah

My question is simple. What are the reasons Jews give for the non-acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah?

Well for starters Heavenly Father in his comunications with Moses said thou shalt have no other God before me, and God neglected to say anything about worshiping a Human claiming Divinity at that time.
Another reason, is that I have prayed to God thye Father since I was a Little boy , always My prayers were answered By God , not Jesus, and for any folowers of Brother Jesus to say that one is going to hell for not believing he is God or the savior to Mankind , does not Jibe with the love and miracles I have witnessed in this lifetime while praying to God the Father, it also says that My Pop Pop the rabbi is going to hell , even though he was a humitarian in The holicaust saving thousands and thousands from the camps and Gas chambers, but never mind that , if he did not believe Jesus is The savior , or God he (Pop Pop was going to Hell for that stupid reason.

God does not care if one does not know , and has told me it is understandable.

Yes he was sent in the infancy of thyis world to show how to live a good life w/ love and compassion, in this way if people learned from his teachings and love they would Be accountable for thyeir actions, sin repent and sin no more Because being accountable and feeling remorse for the wrongs commited against another is a hard leson to forget, but stating thyat Jesus saves by Osmosis, leaves one open to continue sinning over and over again, learning nothing. basically a licence to sin against ones neighbor, who in reality is your brother in the eternal spirit world, which is the true form and life of every one of us. I know he was sent as savior, but not, as many in the christian religion think. For those who walk in Jesus footsteps on the loneley road in search of God and love know, Jesus' Message was one of self accountability. And when one is accountable for his actions He knows God the Father is proud of his son (You).

Heavenly Father is my savior, and it is understandable that some may need a Tangable God to believe in, as they think Jesus, because they of little faith can not seem to believe in an invisable God, and because Jesus was infact visable on Earth, and even gave his body to Father to speak through in certain circumstances, many believe him to be God .

This is not true But Jesus for his part has been given a world of his own to invite whoever he whishes to after this world has come to a close.

Those who have used him as a scape goat to continue sinning against our bros will be in for the conscious awakening of Their life, and will feel Remorse of biblical proportions for skipping over their accountability while incarnate. when one is pure spirit, after this life , he is pure consciousness, and what he has skipped over while incarnate (Human Form) His consciousness has not forgotten, and will not believe any one when they say they are forgiven, simply because they can not forgive them self.
There is much more to this but enough for now Hope all are having a blessed Sunday.

Love Omnaka

Moondoggy

May 28 2007, 04:00 AM

Many wanted the military role of the Messiah first. That did not happen. Many of the Jewish faith are studying the scriptures that cleary prophesied the sacrificial role the Messiah first had to endure. This is certainly one of the biggest reasons. The next is that they never viewed the Messiah as being anything other than a servant of the most high God. To make Yeshua God and the Holy Spirit God, well now you have three God, and the clarion call of the Jews has always been "Hear, O, Israel the Lord our God is one..." So, the concept of the trinity befuddles the Jewish mindset and that is another reason they dismiss Yeshua as the Messiah.

Lt_Ripley

May 28 2007, 06:24 AM

http://www.beingjewish.com/toshuv/whynotbrief.html

or

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/09-An...section-14.html

basically Jesus didn't do what was prophesied.

fullywired

May 28 2007, 03:18 PM

Judaism’s Elijah and Messiah

The Jewish belief in a Messiah (Hebrew: Mashiach—“the anointed”) predates Islam and traditional Christianity. This Messiah is not the Jesus known to professing Christians, who (according to the Jews) failed to fulfill primary Messianic prophecies, such as ushering in world peace. The Jewish Messiah is, however, to be a descendant of King David—under whose leadership the nation of Israel began to flourish, ultimately reaching its power and prestige during the reign of his son, Solomon. The Jewish people look forward to national greatness being restored with the first coming of the Messiah, a conquering king.

Born of ordinary physical parents, the Jewish Messiah is to come as a mortal human being. In time, he will rise in stature and prominence among the Jewish and gentile peoples through his charisma, wisdom and political prowess. This will establish his recognition as the “redeemer of Israel.”

His coming is expected to be preceded by the prophet Elijah, as referenced in the book of Malachi (4:5-6). He is expected to announce the Messiah’s coming by blowing a shofar (ram’s horn) from Mount Carmel. Preparing the way, tradition says Elijah will end mankind’s disputes and cause existing religious doubts and questions to cease. It is also believed that he will restore to Israel a flask of manna, which will provide the nation’s food; a flask of purifying water; and a flask of olive oil, from which he will anoint the Messiah at his appearance.

It is Jewish tradition to set an extra place at the Passover supper for Elijah in anticipation of his return.

Though the Messiah is born of ordinary parents, he must be a Jew—from the tribe of Judah—and a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon. Coming in a time when the Jews are suffering oppression, he is to be a political/spiritual leader of his people, uniting them under Judaism and redeeming them to their God. The laws and rituals contained in the Torah will once again be in force. The Messiah will gather the exiled Jewish people from around the world, returning them to their homeland—Israel. The temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt, and Israel will return to national prominence among nations—becoming an example to the world.

The Jewish Messiah’s earthly reign will be one of unparalleled peace and prosperity; war and injustice will disappear. He will rule in the kingdom of the Almighty with justice and equity, and through this rule will bring all of the Earth’s inhabitants back to their Creator—with Judaism as the world’s religion—filling it with the knowledge of God.

The saying among Jews “next year in Jerusalem” points to this time.

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/427-tmoo...CFSBMGgod2DTZRQ

Jor-el

May 28 2007, 08:32 PM

QUOTE(Lt_Ripley @ May 28 2007, 07:24 AM) [snapback]1697229[/snapback]

http://www.beingjewish.com/toshuv/whynotbrief.html

or

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/09-An...section-14.html

basically Jesus didn't do what was prophesied.

It is interesting to note Lt_ Ripley, that your 1st links description tallies perfectly with that of what christians traditionally accept to be the description of the antichrist.

A jew, a ruler of Israel, accepted as the Messiah and proclaiming peace. The peace will be political not spiritual. He will cause the temple of Jerusalem to be rebuilt, etc, etc...

these have long been considered to be the signs of the age of tribulation.

The 2nd link is quite interesting although I find that some concepts of christianity are actually being confused and misinterpreted.

Jor-el

May 28 2007, 08:39 PM

QUOTE(fullywired @ May 28 2007, 04:18 PM) [snapback]1697592[/snapback]

Judaism’s Elijah and Messiah

The Jewish belief in a Messiah (Hebrew: Mashiach—“the anointed”) predates Islam and traditional Christianity. This Messiah is not the Jesus known to professing Christians, who (according to the Jews) failed to fulfill primary Messianic prophecies, such as ushering in world peace. The Jewish Messiah is, however, to be a descendant of King David—under whose leadership the nation of Israel began to flourish, ultimately reaching its power and prestige during the reign of his son, Solomon. The Jewish people look forward to national greatness being restored with the first coming of the Messiah, a conquering king.

Born of ordinary physical parents, the Jewish Messiah is to come as a mortal human being. In time, he will rise in stature and prominence among the Jewish and gentile peoples through his charisma, wisdom and political prowess. This will establish his recognition as the “redeemer of Israel.”

His coming is expected to be preceded by the prophet Elijah, as referenced in the book of Malachi (4:5-6). He is expected to announce the Messiah’s coming by blowing a shofar (ram’s horn) from Mount Carmel. Preparing the way, tradition says Elijah will end mankind’s disputes and cause existing religious doubts and questions to cease. It is also believed that he will restore to Israel a flask of manna, which will provide the nation’s food; a flask of purifying water; and a flask of olive oil, from which he will anoint the Messiah at his appearance.

It is Jewish tradition to set an extra place at the Passover supper for Elijah in anticipation of his return.

Though the Messiah is born of ordinary parents, he must be a Jew—from the tribe of Judah—and a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon. Coming in a time when the Jews are suffering oppression, he is to be a political/spiritual leader of his people, uniting them under Judaism and redeeming them to their God. The laws and rituals contained in the Torah will once again be in force. The Messiah will gather the exiled Jewish people from around the world, returning them to their homeland—Israel. The temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt, and Israel will return to national prominence among nations—becoming an example to the world.

The Jewish Messiah’s earthly reign will be one of unparalleled peace and prosperity; war and injustice will disappear. He will rule in the kingdom of the Almighty with justice and equity, and through this rule will bring all of the Earth’s inhabitants back to their Creator—with Judaism as the world’s religion—filling it with the knowledge of God.

The saying among Jews “next year in Jerusalem” points to this time.
http://www.realtruth.org/articles/427-tmoo...CFSBMGgod2DTZRQ

An interesting read. Thanks. I especially like the link. Three messiahs in one, that really confuses things. With all 3 major monotheistic religions expecting the return of the Messiah, wouldn't there be a job conflict or at least a conflict of interests between the three of them?

Jor-el

May 28 2007, 08:41 PM

QUOTE(Moondoggy @ May 28 2007, 05:00 AM) [snapback]1697155[/snapback]

Many wanted the military role of the Messiah first. That did not happen. Many of the Jewish faith are studying the scriptures that cleary prophesied the sacrificial role the Messiah first had to endure. This is certainly one of the biggest reasons. The next is that they never viewed the Messiah as being anything other than a servant of the most high God. To make Yeshua God and the Holy Spirit God, well now you have three God, and the clarion call of the Jews has always been "Hear, O, Israel the Lord our God is one..." So, the concept of the trinity befuddles the Jewish mindset and that is another reason they dismiss Yeshua as the Messiah.

Yes, I agree, but what specifically do they fall back on in the way of prophecies and scripture to convince themselves that they are correct?

Lt_Ripley

May 28 2007, 08:55 PM

QUOTE(Jor-el @ May 28 2007, 04:32 PM) [snapback]1697977[/snapback]

It is interesting to note Lt_ Ripley, that your 1st links description tallies perfectly with that of what christians traditionally accept to be the description of the antichrist.

A jew, a ruler of Israel, accepted as the Messiah and proclaiming peace. The peace will be political not spiritual. He will cause the temple of Jerusalem to be rebuilt, etc, etc...

these have long been considered to be the signs of the age of tribulation.
The 2nd link is quite interesting although I find that some concepts of christianity are actually being confused and misinterpreted.

QUOTE(Jor-el @ May 28 2007, 04:32 PM) [snapback]1697977[/snapback]

It is interesting to note Lt_ Ripley, that your 1st links description tallies perfectly with that of what christians traditionally accept to be the description of the antichrist.

A jew, a ruler of Israel, accepted as the Messiah and proclaiming peace. The peace will be political not spiritual. He will cause the temple of Jerusalem to be rebuilt, etc, etc...

these have long been considered to be the signs of the age of tribulation.
The 2nd link is quite interesting although I find that some concepts of christianity are actually being confused and misinterpreted.

interesting that christians formed their idea of an anti christ based on what jews believe to be the messiah. it's a way of christians saying jews are the anti christ. remember , the jewish faith was around longer than christianity.

you can say christian bigotry made the anti christ out of judism.

and what concepts do you think are being confused and misinterpreted ? on who's authority says it's misinterpreted.? could it be the way you understand it is confused and misinterpreted?

Jor-el

May 28 2007, 09:02 PM

QUOTE(Lt_Ripley @ May 28 2007, 09:55 PM) [snapback]1697999[/snapback]

interesting that christians formed their idea of an anti christ based on what jews believe to be the messiah. it's a way of christians saying jews are the anti christ. remember , the jewish faith was around longer than christianity.

you can say christian bigotry made the anti christ out of judism.

and what concepts do you think are being confused and misinterpreted ? on who's authority says it's misinterpreted.? could it be the way you understand it is confused and misinterpreted?

I would have to say I wouldn't know whether the origin of that intrpetation has anything specifically to do with the jewish faith. It is simply a parallel I picked up as I was reading. Since it's been years since I 've actually done any studying concerning the anti-christ, I wouldn't presume to speak one way or the other.

Basically in relation to sin and the trinity. Those are the principle misconceptions I picked up immediately upon reading that site.

Lt_Ripley

May 29 2007, 12:23 AM

QUOTE(Jor-el @ May 28 2007, 05:02 PM) [snapback]1698006[/snapback]

I would have to say I wouldn't know whether the origin of that intrpetation has anything specifically to do with the jewish faith. It is simply a parallel I picked up as I was reading. Since it's been years since I 've actually done any studying concerning the anti-christ, I wouldn't presume to speak one way or the other.

Basically in relation to sin and the trinity. Those are the principle misconceptions I picked up immediately upon reading that site.

as to sin and the trinity - jews believe in one whole god . not a god broken up into facets . or parts. hence the trinity. they believe that their contract comes straight from god so they wouldn't need a mediator or middle man like jesus which again would go against their belief in one god not god in 3 parts.

yes a parallel . which has christians basically calling what jews believe to be a saviour an anti christ. sounds like christians trying to 'evil' judism up so to speak since the discription of the jewish model for a messiah came first.

Omnaka

May 29 2007, 02:31 AM

Not if he married a gentile and brought all the Faiths together in Love.
Now That's a savior.

Love Omnaka

boorite

May 29 2007, 09:35 PM

Jewish outlook on the Messiah?

"Messiah" is a Jewish concept.

It's like talking about a "Christian interpretation of the Christ." Any proper concept of Christ is going to be Christian. It's their term.

Sure, both "messiah" and "Christ" come from the word for "anointed," but behind that superficial similarity lie completely different concepts. Just for starters, "messiah" refers to a human being, and "Christ" to an incarnation of God. That right there should be more than enough to distinguish the two.

Why isn't Jesus the Jewish messiah? Well, have a look at the definition of messiah, and then look at the life of Jesus. Did Jesus accomplish the goal of messiah? No. The Romans pretty much stopped that whole King of the Jews thing. No King of the Jews, no messiah, simple as that.

Christians have told me that Jesus was in some profound and mysterious way really the King of the Jews, even though the occupying Romans managed to kill him just for saying so. Maybe he was, but that is a Christian interpretation and not anywhere close to what "messiah" means.

Jor-el

May 30 2007, 05:26 PM

QUOTE(boorite @ May 29 2007, 10:35 PM) [snapback]1699661[/snapback]

Jewish outlook on the Messiah?

"Messiah" is a Jewish concept.

It's like talking about a "Christian interpretation of the Christ." Any proper concept of Christ is going to be Christian. It's their term.

Sure, both "messiah" and "Christ" come from the word for "anointed," but behind that superficial similarity lie completely different concepts. Just for starters, "messiah" refers to a human being, and "Christ" to an incarnation of God. That right there should be more than enough to distinguish the two.

Why isn't Jesus the Jewish messiah? Well, have a look at the definition of messiah, and then look at the life of Jesus. Did Jesus accomplish the goal of messiah? No. The Romans pretty much stopped that whole King of the Jews thing. No King of the Jews, no messiah, simple as that.

Christians have told me that Jesus was in some profound and mysterious way really the King of the Jews, even though the occupying Romans managed to kill him just for saying so. Maybe he was, but that is a Christian interpretation and not anywhere close to what "messiah" means.

My question is quite simple then. On what scriptures and on what precepts do the Jews base their view of the Messiah on?

M.A.D

May 30 2007, 06:57 PM

jesus came and showed that mamma of truth with the true god our father not ildoiboth,s manna put in place by sophiea but the true god from this side of the pond .

and he has come here on this side to prapare this kingdom on this side of the pond for all that know the truth of christ.

as far as the jews not exsepting christ as messia ,they know he really is they just don't want to give up the power they have in his place.

right now north america looks to the jews as the birth of christains and yes it was like a birth but more like being born again.

because out of the old comes the new and with jesus the jews should of evolved like jesus did but no they didn't.

cloud0729

May 31 2007, 04:34 AM

QUOTE(Jor-el @ May 30 2007, 12:26 PM) [snapback]1701008[/snapback]

My question is quite simple then. On what scriptures and on what precepts do the Jews base their view of the Messiah on?

Hye Jor-el, nice to see you started a topic on this

Here are some verses that describe the view of the Jewish Messiah:

Descendant of David through Solomon
2 Samuel 7:12-13
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Bring all the Jews back to the promised land
Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Rebuild the temple
Ezekiel 37:26-27
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Reign in a time of world-wide peace
Micah 4:3
And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Bring everyone to complete acknowledgement of the God of Israel
Isaiah 66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Hope some of those help a little bit

Jor-el

May 31 2007, 10:26 PM

QUOTE(cloud0729 @ May 31 2007, 05:34 AM) [snapback]1701936[/snapback]

Hye Jor-el, nice to see you started a topic on this

Here are some verses that describe the view of the Jewish Messiah:

Descendant of David through Solomon
2 Samuel 7:12-13
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
Bring all the Jews back to the promised land
Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Rebuild the temple
Ezekiel 37:26-27
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Reign in a time of world-wide peace
Micah 4:3
And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Bring everyone to complete acknowledgement of the God of Israel
Isaiah 66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Hope some of those help a little bit

Thanks cloud, I'll consider these scriptures and get back to you with some other questions. If you have anymore details or scriptures could you be so kind as to give them if you can?

Moondoggy

May 31 2007, 10:38 PM

QUOTE(Jor-el @ May 28 2007, 01:41 PM) [snapback]1697987[/snapback]

Yes, I agree, but what specifically do they fall back on in the way of prophecies and scripture to convince themselves that they are correct?

They pick and choose. Who wants to see their King crucified as it was vividly prophesied about in Isaiah and Psalms. Yeshua himself is recorded as saying they they always are in error not knowing the scriptures. So, it is nothing new under the sun here at all. First things first. The full payment for Adam's transgression is indeed a messianic prophecy beginning with Genesis 3:15.

Jor-el

May 31 2007, 10:47 PM

QUOTE(Moondoggy @ May 31 2007, 11:38 PM) [snapback]1703211[/snapback]

First things first. The full payment for Adam's transgression is indeed a messianic prophecy beginning with Genesis 3:15.

Elaborate on this, my friend. I think I have a different opinion on this matter.

Moondoggy

Jun 1 2007, 03:59 PM

QUOTE(Jor-el @ May 31 2007, 03:47 PM) [snapback]1703223[/snapback]

Elaborate on this, my friend. I think I have a different opinion on this matter.

The very first prophecy in Gen 3:15 was God foretelling events that was pronounced upon Satan. The following is what is called the "Adamic" covenant in Theology. All the curses that befell mankind since occured with this. Dominion was lost for a time. Remember that Paul was a Pharisee and a doctor of the law. He was well schooled in the Jews religion. If he indeed wrote Romans chpt 5 it make it clear the contrast between Adam and Jesus the Christ.

Jor-el

Jun 2 2007, 07:50 PM

QUOTE(boorite @ May 29 2007, 10:35 PM) [snapback]1699661[/snapback]

Jewish outlook on the Messiah?

"Messiah" is a Jewish concept.

It's like talking about a "Christian interpretation of the Christ." Any proper concept of Christ is going to be Christian. It's their term.

Sure, both "messiah" and "Christ" come from the word for "anointed," but behind that superficial similarity lie completely different concepts. Just for starters, "messiah" refers to a human being, and "Christ" to an incarnation of God. That right there should be more than enough to distinguish the two.

Why isn't Jesus the Jewish messiah? Well, have a look at the definition of messiah, and then look at the life of Jesus. Did Jesus accomplish the goal of messiah? No. The Romans pretty much stopped that whole King of the Jews thing. No King of the Jews, no messiah, simple as that.

Christians have told me that Jesus was in some profound and mysterious way really the King of the Jews, even though the occupying Romans managed to kill him just for saying so. Maybe he was, but that is a Christian interpretation and not anywhere close to what "messiah" means.

Well, I'm trying to understand the concept behind the jewish outlook. Not trying to defend the christian outlook. My purpose is simply to understand on what the jewish outlook bases its belief on the Messiah on and what scriptures they use to do so.

Jor-el

Jun 2 2007, 07:52 PM

QUOTE(Moondoggy @ Jun 1 2007, 04:59 PM) [snapback]1704195[/snapback]

The very first prophecy in Gen 3:15 was God foretelling events that was pronounced upon Satan. The following is what is called the "Adamic" covenant in Theology. All the curses that befell mankind since occured with this. Dominion was lost for a time. Remember that Paul was a Pharisee and a doctor of the law. He was well schooled in the Jews religion. If he indeed wrote Romans chpt 5 it make it clear the contrast between Adam and Jesus the Christ.

As long as we aren't talking about the concept of "original sin" then we are ok.

cloud0729

Jun 2 2007, 08:01 PM

QUOTE(Moondoggy @ Jun 1 2007, 10:59 AM) [snapback]1704195[/snapback]

The very first prophecy in Gen 3:15 was God foretelling events that was pronounced upon Satan. The following is what is called the "Adamic" covenant in Theology. All the curses that befell mankind since occured with this. Dominion was lost for a time. Remember that Paul was a Pharisee and a doctor of the law. He was well schooled in the Jews religion. If he indeed wrote Romans chpt 5 it make it clear the contrast between Adam and Jesus the Christ.

Genesis 3:15 (KJV)
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This is not a prophecy at all, the only thing that hints at the Messiah in this verse is it will be a descendant of Adam and Eve (mankind). Enmity = hostility, seed = offspring, the only thing this verse refers to is a general dislike of snakes and how people hit them while the snake attacks the persons foot. Better yet, how about we take the next verse where God tells Eve that He will sharpen the pain of Eve's pregnancy, that verse should have reference to the Messiah too right? Or where He tells Adam that the ground is cursed for him, is that a reference also?

God is only telling the three people who disobeyed Him the consequences.

Jor-el

Jun 2 2007, 08:01 PM

QUOTE(cloud0729 @ May 31 2007, 05:34 AM) [snapback]1701936[/snapback]

Hye Jor-el, nice to see you started a topic on this

Here are some verses that describe the view of the Jewish Messiah:

Descendant of David through Solomon
2 Samuel 7:12-13
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
Bring all the Jews back to the promised land
Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Rebuild the temple
Ezekiel 37:26-27
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Reign in a time of world-wide peace
Micah 4:3
And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Bring everyone to complete acknowledgement of the God of Israel
Isaiah 66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Hope some of those help a little bit

From what I've been reading, your points basically cover all the expecations Jews have concerning the Messiah.

Descendant of David through Solomon
.
Bring all the Jews back to the promised land
.
Rebuild the temple
.
Reign in a time of world-wide peace

Are there any others that you didn't cover?

Also what supporting scripture exists for the prophecies? In othere words you gave the verses of the prophecies themselves but where can we see supporting scripture that elaborates these prophecies?

cloud0729

Jun 2 2007, 08:54 PM

QUOTE

Are there anymore that you didn't cover?

Will bring everyone to acknowledge the God of Israel
Isaiah 66:23
And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the Lord

QUOTE

Also what supporting scripture exists for the prophecies?

Descendant of David through Solomon

2 Samuel 7:12-13:

"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever."

1 Chronicles 17:11-12:

"And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build me an house, and I will establish his throne for ever."

1 Chronicles 22:9-10:

"Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever."

Although all the future kings of Israel will come through David, none will be from Jeconiah:

Jeremiah 22:30

"Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."

I will get back to you on the other ones soon, but I'm going to be busy until probably tomorrow, thanks for your questions.

draconic chronicler

Jun 2 2007, 10:50 PM

Jesus so called temptation by Satan actually seems to be Satan's attempt as God's assistant (as he is portrayed in the Holy Torah) to assist Jesus in fulfilling his role as the Messiah. The prophecies state the Messiah will conquer Israel's enemies, as this is exactly what Satan offered to do for Jesus.

Jesus seems to have disdained being the Jewish Messiah, and instead chose to bring God to the pagan world even at the cost of his life. To have accepted Satan's assistance would have meant a terrible war and the deaths of millions who would not have accepted the Jewish God until conquered.

When Jesus said Satan was the Lord of his World it could have meant God gave him this position, as Satan told Jesus, instead of the pagan Zoroastrian belief adopted by Christianity that God and Satan were opponents, which contradicts the Holy Torah and blasphemously implies the creator of the universe cannot control his created servant.

It is little wonder the ancient Jews were angered by the Christian Doctrine. It reduced the Creator to a pagan dualistic "good" demigod at war with a "bad demigod" for thousands of years until the apocolypes John of Patmos imitated from original Persian myth almost to the letter. Of course, every Christian does not accept this blasphemous nonsense, and recognizes Revelation as a false prophecy.

Jor-el

Jun 2 2007, 11:25 PM

QUOTE(draconic chronicler @ Jun 2 2007, 11:50 PM) [snapback]1706118[/snapback]

Jesus so called temptation by Satan actually seems to be Satan's attempt as God's assistant (as he is portrayed in the Holy Torah) to assist Jesus in fulfilling his role as the Messiah. The prophecies state the Messiah will conquer Israel's enemies, as this is exactly what Satan offered to do for Jesus.

Jesus seems to have disdained being the Jewish Messiah, and instead chose to bring God to the pagan world even at the cost of his life. To have accepted Satan's assistance would have meant a terrible war and the deaths of millions who would not have accepted the Jewish God until conquered.

When Jesus said Satan was the Lord of his World it could have meant God gave him this position, as Satan told Jesus, instead of the pagan Zoroastrian belief adopted by Christianity that God and Satan were opponents, which contradicts the Holy Torah and blasphemously implies the creator of the universe cannot control his created servant.

It is little wonder the ancient Jews were angered by the Christian Doctrine. It reduced the Creator to a pagan dualistic "good" demigod at war with a "bad demigod" for thousands of years until the apocolypes John of Patmos imitated from original Persian myth almost to the letter. Of course, every Christian does not accept this blasphemous nonsense, and recognizes Revelation as a false prophecy.

Yet the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah. At the time of this rejection during Jesus life and death, they must have had reasons for not accepting him as such. Today with 20/20 hindsight many prophecies have been found to actively disqualify Jesus from the messiahship. My questions are aimed at trying to identify these passages as well as the meanings attached to them as seen by the Jews.

Since judaism from the late 1st century, many times defined itself by its polarized relationship with christianity, it seems that many of the objections actually arose much later after Jesus' time but didn't actually exist during his time.

Moondoggy

Jun 3 2007, 12:18 AM

QUOTE(cloud0729 @ Jun 2 2007, 01:01 PM) [snapback]1705913[/snapback]

Genesis 3:15 (KJV)
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This is not a prophecy at all, the only thing that hints at the Messiah in this verse is it will be a descendant of Adam and Eve (mankind). Enmity = hostility, seed = offspring, the only thing this verse refers to is a general dislike of snakes and how people hit them while the snake attacks the persons foot. Better yet, how about we take the next verse where God tells Eve that He will sharpen the pain of Eve's pregnancy, that verse should have reference to the Messiah too right? Or where He tells Adam that the ground is cursed for him, is that a reference also?

God is only telling the three people who disobeyed Him the consequences.

Sorry cloud but 99.9% of commentaries both Jewish and Christians put it in the messianic prophecy files.

cloud0729

Jun 3 2007, 01:25 AM

QUOTE(Moondoggy @ Jun 2 2007, 07:18 PM) [snapback]1706212[/snapback]

Sorry cloud but 99.9% of commentaries both Jewish and Christians put it in the messianic prophecy files.

That doesn't make any sense because if 99.9% of Jewish commentators said it was a messianic prophecy, they wouldn' be Jewish now would they?

RadicalGnostic

Jun 3 2007, 02:35 AM

Disagreement here. Christianity may have begun with one Jewish man who had followers, but the full flowering of Christianity comes from the Greek and Egyptian influences of the first 3 centuries of the common era. I do not consider Christianity as a Jewish heresy, but an attempt from the beginning to put a new face on old wisdom.

However, the modern Christian is often too concerned with a bloody Jesus and a corrupt book of writings instead of the greater mysteries. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

Ovid

Jun 3 2007, 03:14 AM

Yes, I agree. Jesus among a few others came very close to solving the riddle, simply of greater levels of passion. Jesus was close to God, not God in the Catholic sense, he came to tell us we were all God, all divine. Perhaps someone will return to "save the World," perhaps people will tag that person as "Jesus" many in this world truly believe Jesus is already back and they have their own churches and following, several in fact alive now claim "Christhood." Peace indeed.

RadicalGnostic

Jun 3 2007, 01:34 PM

I am Gnostic Christian, and I think that what modern Christianity has done to the person of Jesus of Nazareth is nothing short of delusional. As an example, many modern Christians would have one believe that their bible should understood literally. Jesus said, "If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out." Did he mean literal physical mutilation or was he trying to remind us that we should be focused on our spriritual goal instead of physical matters? I think he meant for us to reflect on his words, ALL of his words, and focus on our spiritual goal of rejoining the Sparks of divinity with the Fullness.

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

Moondoggy

Jun 3 2007, 04:01 PM

QUOTE(cloud0729 @ Jun 2 2007, 06:25 PM) [snapback]1706289[/snapback]

That doesn't make any sense because if 99.9% of Jewish commentators said it was a messianic prophecy, they wouldn' be Jewish now would they?

Sure it does! Have you heard of Messianic Jews? The very word "Messiah" is from the Hebrew language to begin with.

Jor-el

Jun 3 2007, 09:27 PM

QUOTE(RadicalGnostic @ Jun 3 2007, 02:34 PM) [snapback]1706778[/snapback]

I am Gnostic Christian, and I think that what modern Christianity has done to the person of Jesus of Nazareth is nothing short of delusional. As an example, many modern Christians would have one believe that their bible should understood literally. Jesus said, "If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out." Did he mean literal physical mutilation or was he trying to remind us that we should be focused on our spriritual goal instead of physical matters? I think he meant for us to reflect on his words, ALL of his words, and focus on our spiritual goal of rejoining the Sparks of divinity with the Fullness.

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

And what has this got to do with the Jewish interpretation of what the Messiah is supposed to achieve when he finally comes or the scriptures supporting such interpretations?

There were many different views of who Jesus was in his own time, not to mention the thousands of views that exist of him today. It doesn't make the views any more real or worthy than the one in the bible.

The Spirit of God iluminates the hearts of those willing to listen to his voice and his words, it cannot speak though when we are too busy proclaiming ourselves godlike just because we are made in his image.

Jor-el

Jun 3 2007, 09:30 PM

QUOTE(Moondoggy @ Jun 3 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]1706890[/snapback]

Sure it does! Have you heard of Messianic Jews? The very word "Messiah" is from the Hebrew language to begin with.

Messianic Jews are jewish christians. It means their outlook is also christian. It also means they interpret the scriptures in a totally different way from orthodox and conservative Judaism.

seanph

Jun 4 2007, 12:32 PM

QUOTE

My question is simple. What are the reasons Jews give for the non-acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah?

Because he did not meet the criteria of Jewish Messiah. The Jews believe:

1. The Jewish Messiah will not be divine.
2. The Jewish Messiah will not be crucified.
3. The Jewish Messiah will not be a sin-sacrafice.
4. The Jewish Messiah will not have to go through a resurrection.
5. The Jewish Messiah will not die and return in a "second coming."

Et al.

Jewish Belief in Messiah

The Jewish Concept of Messiah and
the Jewish Response to Christian Claims

1) The word ââ‚¬Å“Messiahââ‚¬ is an English rendering of the Hebrew word ââ‚¬Å“Mashiachââ‚¬, whose translation is ââ‚¬Å“Anointedââ‚¬. It usually refers to a person initiated into G-dââ‚¬â„¢s service by being anointed with oil. (Having oil poured on his head. Cf. Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3).

2) There are many Messiahs in the Bible. Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as ââ‚¬Å“an anointed oneââ‚¬ (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: ââ‚¬Å“G-d forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the L-rdââ‚¬â„¢s Messiah [Saul]...ââ‚¬ I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6.

3) The Hebrew word ââ‚¬Å“HaMashiachââ‚¬ (lit. the Messiah) describing a future anointed person to come does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Since the Bible makes no explicit reference to the Messiah, it is unlikely that it could be considered the most important concept in the Bible. Indeed, in Jewish thought, the Messianic idea is not the most crucial. However, in Christian thought, the Messiah is paramount- a difficulty in light of its conspicuous absence from scripture.

4) Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of G-d. Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34.

5) Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5.

6) Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed one as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

7) The Bible never speaks about believing in the Messiah. Because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it wonââ‚¬â„¢t require belief or faith.

8) Because no person has ever fulfilled the picture painted in the Bible of this future King, Jewish people still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

9) The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his ââ‚¬Å“firstââ‚¬ coming. The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The ââ‚¬Å“second comingââ‚¬ theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesusââ‚¬â„¢ failure. The Biblical passages which Christians are forced to regard as second coming (#5 above) donââ‚¬â„¢t speak of someone returning, they have a ââ‚¬Å“first comingââ‚¬ perspective.

10) According to Biblical tradition, Elijah the prophet will reappear before the coming of the Messiah (Malachi 4:5-6). In the Greek Testament, Jesus claims that John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 11:13-14, 17:10-13). However, when John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah, he denied it (John 1:21). The Gospel of Luke 1:17 tries to get around this problem by claiming that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. However:

a] Malachi predicted that Elijah himself would return, and not just someone coming in his spirit.

b] When asked about his identity, John the Baptist didnââ‚¬â„¢t claim to have come in the spirit of Elijah - he claimed no association with Elijah at all.

c] The prophesy about the return of Elijah says that he would restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. There is no evidence that John the Baptist accomplished this.

11) According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.

There are two problems with this claim:

a) there is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;

Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesnââ‚¬â„¢t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).

To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:

a] There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Josephââ‚¬â„¢s genealogy, not Maryââ‚¬â„¢s.

b] Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesnââ‚¬â„¢t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

c] Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14;

I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through Davidââ‚¬â„¢s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)

d] Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.

If you have questions about what Judaism has said about the promised Messiah for the last three millenia or want to know how to answer the Christian claims, please check out our website: www.jewsforjudaism.org, drop us a line or give us a call. The concept of Messiah is Jewish. To find out about it go to the source.

SOURCE
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/gene...shresponse.html

... You must not imagine that the messiah must prove his messianity by signs and miracles, doing something unexpected, bringing the dead to life, or similar things. The principle thing is this: the statutes and precepts of our Torah remain forever, and nothing can be added to them or taken from them.

If, therefore, a descendant of David earnestly studies the Torah, observes what the written and oral Torah enjoins, causes all Israelites to act similarly, exhorts those who are lax in the performance of the commandments, and fights the wars of the L-rd, he may possibly be the messiah. If he does not succeed, or is killed in war, it is certain that he is not the messiah promised in the Torah. He is like all the other noble and good kings of the House of David who have died, and God only caused him to rise in order to try us thereby, as it is said, `And of the wise some will stumble, and through them the people will be tested, purified, and made white, till the time of the end comes; for there is yet a vision for an appointed time.' (Dan. 11:35)...

SOURCE: Jewish Belief in Messiah
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/gene...iah-belief.html

So, did Jesus even remotely meet the criteria for the Jewish Messiah? No! Not even close!

Messiah: The Criteria
Judge for yourself: Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/gene...criteria02.html

For a more thorough understanding of Jewish messianic concepts see:

linked-image

He That Cometh: The Messiah Concept in the Old Testament and Later Judaism (The Biblical Resource Series) by Sigmund Mowinckel
http://www.amazon.com/He-That-Cometh-Testa...0453&sr=1-1

Sean

RadicalGnostic

Jun 4 2007, 01:20 PM

I don't hold to old testament curses. Nuff said.

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

Jor-el

Jun 4 2007, 07:38 PM

QUOTE(seanph @ Jun 4 2007, 01:32 PM) [snapback]1708164[/snapback]

Because he did not meet the criteria of Jewish Messiah. The Jews believe:

1. The Jewish Messiah will not be divine.
2. The Jewish Messiah will not be crucified.
3. The Jewish Messiah will not be a sin-sacrafice.
4. The Jewish Messiah will not have to go through a resurrection.
5. The Jewish Messiah will not die and return in a "second coming."

And just how many of the statements you posted are a response to christian belief as opposed to what Jews believed before Jesus came on the scene. We all know that many if not most scholars are catagorical when they state that Judaism defined itself from the late 1st century onward, as a response to christianity.

The Messiah will not be divine, is a response to the divinity of christ.

The jewish Messiah will not be crucified, is a response to christian belief.

The Jewish Messiah will not be a sin sacrifice, is again a response to christian belief.

and so on and so on.

It seems that Judaism is constantly trying to define itself in relation to christianity. Just how many of the criteria actually existed before Jesus and are not a 20/20 hindsight argument?

Ovid

Jun 5 2007, 01:42 AM

Jor - el: The Spirit of God iluminates the hearts of those willing to listen to his voice and his words, it cannot speak though when we are too busy proclaiming ourselves godlike just because we are made in his image.
[/quote]

This would be a fallacy in correct argumentation, those who listen to God are not proclaiming themselves godlike? Logically, if one was listening to God then one would know God, hence creating in them a deeper notion of how divine one is, your statement: We are not godlike because we were made in his image. Think brother.

seanph

Jun 5 2007, 02:08 PM

QUOTE

The Messiah will not be divine, is a response to the divinity of christ.

The jewish Messiah will not be crucified, is a response to christian belief.

The Jewish Messiah will not be a sin sacrifice, is again a response to christian belief.

and so on and so on.

This is a response to Christianity. Why? Christians were (are) contorting Jewish texts--proof texting--in order to make Jesus the Messiah ... when he wasn't.

Later developments: from Messiah to Christ

As we have seen in the preceding chapters, until the end of the first century CE, there is no evidence that the Messiah was ever considered a superhuman being. This must be stressed, because it is often said that the Messiah was some sort of demi-god; those who say so, define Jewish messianism in terms of Christian theology...

... We may therefore assume that the idea that the Messiah was a superhuman being, is a Christian innovation, although there may be one or two antecedents...

SOURCE: Livius
http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah_18.html

QUOTE

It seems that Judaism is constantly trying to define itself in relation to christianity. Just how many of the criteria actually existed before Jesus and are not a 20/20 hindsight argument?

Jewish messiaism developed out of the Isaianic apocalype, but really began to define itself in the 2nd BCE with Daniel and, yes, into the 1st CE. But this is not a hindsight argument. Jesus was rejected as the Jewish Messiah because he failed to meet the criteria of the day ... and his mission. He was killed by the Romans--something that was not supposed to happen to the real Messiah. The real Messiah would succeed the first time around, and not in a "Second Coming". This is just one of his [Jesus] many failures. The rest can be found in detail in the sources cited above--particularly in the wonderful book He That Cometh: The Messiah Concept in the Old Testament and Later Judaism by the late Professor Sigmund Mowinckel.

J, what is your opinion with regards to the "Two Messiahs" hypothesis? I personally find it intriguing--especially after reading Tabor's the Jesus Dynasty.

Livius: Two Messiahs
http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah_14.html

The Jesus Dynasty
http://www.jesusdynasty.com/

Read the Introduction to The Jesus Dynasty On-Line
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/Books/story?...6724&page=1

Kindly,

Sean

Moondoggy

Jun 5 2007, 04:02 PM

QUOTE(Jor-el @ Jun 3 2007, 02:30 PM) [snapback]1707416[/snapback]

Messianic Jews are jewish christians. It means their outlook is also christian. It also means they interpret the scriptures in a totally different way from orthodox and conservative Judaism.

I do not agree with you on this. There are Jews who simply live by the Mosaic Law and do not hold the view that a Messiah is coming. A Messianic Jew is a Jew who looks to the coming of the Messiah, but has not accepted Yeshua (Jesus) as that Messiah.

Moondoggy

Jun 5 2007, 04:11 PM

QUOTE(seanph @ Jun 5 2007, 07:08 AM) [snapback]1709927[/snapback]

This is a response to Christianity. Why? Christians were (are) contorting Jewish texts--proof texting--in order to make Jesus the Messiah ... when he wasn't.

Later developments: from Messiah to Christ

As we have seen in the preceding chapters, until the end of the first century CE, there is no evidence that the Messiah was ever considered a superhuman being. This must be stressed, because it is often said that the Messiah was some sort of demi-god; those who say so, define Jewish messianism in terms of Christian theology...

... We may therefore assume that the idea that the Messiah was a superhuman being, is a Christian innovation, although there may be one or two antecedents...

SOURCE: Livius
http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah_18.html

Jewish messiaism developed out of the Isaianic apocalype, but really began to define itself in the 2nd BCE with Daniel and, yes, into the 1st CE. But this is not a hindsight argument. Jesus was rejected as the Jewish Messiah because he failed to meet the criteria of the day ... and his mission. He was killed by the Romans--something that was not supposed to happen to the real Messiah. The real Messiah would succeed the first time around, and not in a "Second Coming". This is just one of his [Jesus] many failures. The rest can be found in detail in the sources cited above--particularly in the wonderful book He That Cometh: The Messiah Concept in the Old Testament and Later Judaism by the late Professor Sigmund Mowinckel.

J, what is your opinion with regards to the "Two Messiahs" hypothesis? I personally find it intriguing--especially after reading Tabor's the Jesus Dynasty.

Livius: Two Messiahs
http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah_14.html

The Jesus Dynasty
http://www.jesusdynasty.com/

Read the Introduction to The Jesus Dynasty On-Line
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/Books/story?...6724&page=1

Kindly,

Sean

I would agree on some matters. In that the NT was corrupted to portray Jesus as God. The Aramaic bible dismissed many greek forgeries of the text. My studies come up with Yeshua fullfilling many messianic prophecies. Of course there are those who research the matter with an already preconceived idea and their research is usually tainted. You have to do the research yourself these days or you will simply believe what others opinions are.

cloud0729

Jun 5 2007, 06:21 PM

QUOTE(Moondoggy @ Jun 5 2007, 11:02 AM) [snapback]1710049[/snapback]

I do not agree with you on this. There are Jews who simply live by the Mosaic Law and do not hold the view that a Messiah is coming. A Messianic Jew is a Jew who looks to the coming of the Messiah, but has not accepted Yeshua (Jesus) as that Messiah.

That is not what a Messianic Jew is. All Jews look for the coming of a Messiah (anointed one) because it is in their hebrew bible, otherwise they would be denying what is written in their own book. A Messianic Jew is a jew who has accepted Jesus as the Messiah, where did you get your definition from?

Irish

Jun 5 2007, 06:29 PM

QUOTE(cloud0729 @ Jun 5 2007, 11:21 AM) [snapback]1710287[/snapback]

That is not what a Messianic Jew is. All Jews look for the coming of a Messiah (anointed one) because it is in their hebrew bible, otherwise they would be denying what is written in their own book. A Messianic Jew is a jew who has accepted Jesus as the Messiah, where did you get your definition from?

Messianic Judaism is a religious whose congregants comprise both ethnic Jews and Gentiles and who believe that Jesus of Nazareth, whom they call Yeshua, is both their savior and the resurrected Jewish Messiah. While Messianic Jews practice their faith in a way that they consider to be authentically Torah-observant and culturally Jewish Jews Jewish denominations and most Christians do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism. Messianic Jews are also not considered Jewish under the State of Isreal
By 1993 there were 160,000 adherents of Messianic Judaism in the United States and 350,000 worldwide. By 2003, there were at least 150 Messianic synagogues in the U.S. and over 400 worldwide.

Source

seanph

Jun 5 2007, 07:32 PM

QUOTE

You have to do the research yourself these days or you will simply believe what others opinions are.

Twenty years (actually, twenty-one now) of research (Degree in both Classics and History), fifteen as a devout Christian. I left the faith for many reasons--one of them being said topic.

Kindly,

Sean

Jor-el

Jun 5 2007, 09:19 PM

QUOTE(Moondoggy @ Jun 5 2007, 05:02 PM) [snapback]1710049[/snapback]

I do not agree with you on this. There are Jews who simply live by the Mosaic Law and do not hold the view that a Messiah is coming. A Messianic Jew is a Jew who looks to the coming of the Messiah, but has not accepted Yeshua (Jesus) as that Messiah.

I think Irish answered that to my liking and interpretation, Moondoggy. Messianic Jews are Jews who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah, this in fact makes them christians but with a another name due to their specific background.

Jor-el

Jun 5 2007, 09:47 PM

QUOTE(seanph @ Jun 5 2007, 03:08 PM) [snapback]1709927[/snapback]

This is a response to Christianity. Why? Christians were (are) contorting Jewish texts--proof texting--in order to make Jesus the Messiah ... when he wasn't.

My statement is quite simple. There were messianic expectations at the time Jesus came on the scene. The Jews had a list of prophecies which they used as guidelines so that the Messiah could be identified when he came.

The examples you gave are not part of those prophecies but simply refutations by Jewish scholars of Jesus Messianic claim. Therefore they were reacting to beliefs that became prevalent from the middle of the 1st century C.E. onward.

As such, scholars have no difficulty in showing that much of Judaic interpretation comes from a response to the christian movement and its beliefs. When Jewish scholars say that the Messiah was not divine, they are not speaking from the Pre-Jesus era but from a post-Jesus era, hence from mid to late 1st century C.E.

It is also considered by many scholars that many of the present day Messianic prophecies held by the Jews are infact a result of this Post-Jesus era and were not even held to be prophecies before there was a need to refute Jesus' claim as the Messiah.

The said list of prophecies untampered by later additions and interpretation are what I'm presently interested in. Cloud gave a few of them in a previous post, I'm hoping to find a few more.

QUOTE

J, what is your opinion with regards to the "Two Messiahs" hypothesis? I personally find it intriguing--especially after reading Tabor's the Jesus Dynasty.

It is not something that I'm overly familiar with. The two Messiahs being from the tribe of Levi (A spiritual teacher) and the tribe of Judah (A king with military power).

I really haven't studied alot in relation to this issue since it has never been relevant to subjects I've studied. They certainly didn't teach this at college. I'll look into it, thanks for the tip.

seanph

Jun 6 2007, 01:38 PM

QUOTE

My statement is quite simple. There were messianic expectations at the time Jesus came on the scene. The Jews had a list of prophecies which they used as guidelines so that the Messiah could be identified when he came.

The examples you gave are not part of those prophecies but simply refutations by Jewish scholars of Jesus Messianic claim. Therefore they were reacting to beliefs that became prevalent from the middle of the 1st century C.E. onward.

No, they are not simply refutations, J. I respectfully disagree. Please read the sources I cited again. The prophecies originated in the Torah (expounded upon in later Hebrew scriptures)--Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel et al.

The Jewish Messiah : The Criteria

The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

Again ...

Later developments: from Messiah to Christ

As we have seen in the preceding chapters, until the end of the first century CE, there is no evidence that the Messiah was ever considered a superhuman being. This must be stressed, because it is often said that the Messiah was some sort of demi-god; those who say so, define Jewish messianism in terms of Christian theology...

... We may therefore assume that the idea that the Messiah was a superhuman being, is a Christian innovation, although there may be one or two antecedents...

SOURCE: Livius
http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah_18.html

AND:

Textual Requirements

Most of the Textual requirements concerning the Moshiach (messiah) and what he will do is located within Isaiah, although it is mentioned in other prophets as well.

*The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)
*Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
*The whole world will worship the One G-d of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17)
*He will be descended from David HaMelech (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
*The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with ï¿½fear of G-dï¿½ (Isaiah 11:2)
*Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)
*Knowledge of G-d will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
*He will include and attract all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
*Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
*He will swallow up death forever (Isaiah 25:8)
*There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
*All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
*The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
*He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7)
*Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13-5)
*For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations (Isaiah 56:3-7)
*The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
*The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
*Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
*The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos
*He will then perfect the entire world to serve G-d together, as it is written (Zephaniah 3:9)
*Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
*He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
*He will take the barren land and make it abundant & fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

AND:

Judaism and Christianity

Christianity as we have come to know it emerged from Judaism in the first century of the Common Era. The first Christians were Jews, and likely subscribed to Jewish beliefs and practices common at the time. Among these was a belief that a messiahââ‚¬â€a descendant of King Davidââ‚¬â€would restore the monarchy and Jewish independence. Christians identified this person as Jesus of Nazareth.

According to mainstream Jewish beliefs, the failure of Jesus to meet the textual requirements, and his crucifixion by Romans, negated claims that he was the messiah (since most Jews do not accept that Jesus was the messiah, they reject the use of the full (Christian) name. See the Jewish eschatology for further discussion).

Judaism teaches that it is heretical for any man to claim to be a part of God (or even to be God Himself); Jews view Jesus as just one in a long list of Jewish claimants to be the messiah. The article on the concept of the messiah contains a list of many people who claimed to be the messiah, son of God, or both.

SOURCE: Definition of Jewish Messiah
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Jewish_Me...nd_Christianity

Also, please drop JJ an email and ask them this question. They are very polite and quick to respond. You can reach them here: www.jewsforjudaism.org

QUOTE

As such, scholars have no difficulty in showing that much of Judaic interpretation comes from a response to the christian movement and its beliefs. When Jewish scholars say that the Messiah was not divine, they are not speaking from the Pre-Jesus era but from a post-Jesus era, hence from mid to late 1st century C.E.

It is also considered by many scholars that many of the present day Messianic prophecies held by the Jews are infact a result of this Post-Jesus era and were not even held to be prophecies before there was a need to refute Jesus' claim as the Messiah.

The said list of prophecies untampered by later additions and interpretation are what I'm presently interested in. Cloud gave a few of them in a previous post, I'm hoping to find a few more.

Again, this is not so ...

... You must not imagine that the messiah must prove his messianity by signs and miracles, doing something unexpected, bringing the dead to life, or similar things. The principle thing is this: the statutes and precepts of our Torah remain forever, and nothing can be added to them or taken from them.

If, therefore, a descendant of David earnestly studies the Torah, observes what the written and oral Torah enjoins, causes all Israelites to act similarly, exhorts those who are lax in the performance of the commandments, and fights the wars of the L-rd, he may possibly be the messiah. If he does not succeed, or is killed in war, it is certain that he is not the messiah promised in the Torah. He is like all the other noble and good kings of the House of David who have died, and God only caused him to rise in order to try us thereby, as it is said, `And of the wise some will stumble, and through them the people will be tested, purified, and made white, till the time of the end comes; for there is yet a vision for an appointed time.' (Dan. 11:35)...

SOURCE: Jewish Belief in Messiah
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/gene...iah-belief.html

So, did Jesus even remotely meet the criteria for the Jewish Messiah? Again, no. Not even close.

Messiah: The Criteria
Judge for yourself: Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/gene...criteria02.html

And which scholars are you referring to? I would like to read their work. And I cited He That Cometh: The Messiah Concept in the Old Testament and Later Judaism (The Biblical Resource Series) by the late Professor Sigmund Mowinckel, who wrote one of the seminal works in this area. And while there certainly was later messianic development, most originated in the Torah and were well established by the first century.

Kindly,

Sean

lismore

Jun 6 2007, 11:32 PM

QUOTE(Jor-el @ May 28 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]1697977[/snapback]

A jew, a ruler of Israel, accepted as the Messiah and proclaiming peace. The peace will be political not spiritual. He will cause the temple of Jerusalem to be rebuilt, etc, etc...

Aint it interesting? The bible said that Israel would be a country again and it happened in 1948. Now we can watch and see other bible prophecies unfold on the news!