Umm...wouldn't that statement mean that he is not omnipotent? If he's not omnipotent...what is so great about him then?

...

Sorry...but when I spot statements like this,I can't resist picking on them. (My "Inner Puppy" made me do it)

Irish was saying that God can create life and take it away because God is the creator and we are the Created, so it is ok for God to kill. But he said that only mankind can commit murder because WE have no power over death and cannot reverse it.


He was on about Mankind not God with this quote.......

Yes,but he needs to watch his wording...which is why I picked it out.The wording was such that it could be taken in a different manner,which is something everyone should watch out for...hence my messing with it.

Still...why would such a Creator create something that could and would commit murder...especially if that Creator is supposedly so great and powerful and perfect? It makes absolutely no sense.

I've renamed this thread from "those annoying Christians" to avoid confusion, some people have been reporting it based on the title alone without having actually read the opening post to see what it's about.

The thread is now called "Christians".

Interesting philosophical puzzle here, Irish.

God doesn't murder because God can return the being to life? Is that the gist of what you mean?

If so, then any 'murder' committed by Man can be reversed by God. Is this, philosophically, any different to God having slain the victim in the first place?

By that reasoning, Man cannot murder if God cannot.

Lol yeah when i first spotted it I thought WHAT?? then i read it again.





I don't believe in a creator but if i did i would believe that this so called creator just creates things with no emotional attachment to it's creations. It just creates and if it is sentient watches us.

or maybe [he] created us with freedom of choice. and besides, why wouldnt he create somethign that doesn't kill or harm. if he loved us unconditionally, then he would see nothing wrong with those actions. they are a learning experience for all involved. and if there is no right or wrong in his eyes, then we would never be condemned to hell for so called 'bad crimes'.
who can define what bad is anyway? poeple do what they do because they don't know any better. is that their fault or societies?

Here I have to take Kratos’ side. If you have an entity that is all knowing, all seeing and all wise, why would he even create a species of intelligent (?) beings if he already knows the out come of this. He was disgusted with mankind and decided to cleanse the earth of this scourge. Come on now! He could have seen that coming, why did he go ahead and create them? Did he actually think that things would turn out different? He already knew the end result before he created them! Then he sees one man that is righteous and changes his mind about destroying all mankind! This is the problem with the Christian mythology, they assign these magnificent abilities to their God and then turn around and have him do things that say he doesn’t have these abilities. Then why drown the entire world? What sins did the animals perpetrate, what sins did the plants commit? Why did he use water to wipe everything out. He created everything, therefore he should know all about genetics. It would have been simpler for him to tailor a plague that was human specific and 100% fatal, hence sparing the rest of nature (a nature innocent of sin). If he wanted to spare Noah and his family, all he had to do was make them immune to the plague! No muss, no fuss, no construction project with stone, copper and bronze tools, no “animals two by two” and no cobbling up a rainbow as a promise not to lose his temper so badly again! Sorry, Kratos is right, the Christian god can’t be anything but a construct created by a bunch of savages squatting around a smoky fire outside a flea-ridden hide tent amid acres of goat and sheep crap!


Because this concept is constantly pushed in our faces by the very people this thread is about! Do you think free-thinkers (Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, etc) sit around and b**** and moan about the Christian god among themselves? Hardly, we have much more edifying subjects to discuss. Beowulf, CD and I usually talk about either Beowulf’s most recent work on the ongoing paleoIndian archaeological dig outside of McCaulley Texas or mine or CD’s most recent research into some historical period. Kratos probably speaks with his friends on whatever subjects that interest them. Religion never comes up (at least with my group, but then we are all Deists).


When the created does not cause the death of millions of innocent creatures and the Creator does (especially since the Creator made killing a sin), then the created IS more moral and the Creator shows itself to be a blood-thirsty tyrant!


LT…now you see why I value your input so much…the sheer logic is beautiful! Incidentally, if you will look at the earmarks of what a cult is, you will find that Christianity meets (and sometimes exceeds) all of them! I have a friend whose name for Christians is “Christ Cultists”!

If you have a large Pizza and a case of beer you are more than welcome, and if I knock on your door I will reciprocate. If not, I can pull you a mailing list of your local JW’s and Mormons and you can have revenge for both of us.

Irish

I imagine you're perfectly capable of seeing the great difference between saying "god bless you" when someone sneezes and asking someone to take care of their soul.

The Atheist is under no obligation to take care of something the Christian believes exists. It's not just presumptuous, it's preposterous.



One of the things which is frustrating about some Christians is their awareness of their right to speak from their belief structure, but their lack of tolerance for the rights of others in the same regard. There is no unwritten rule which stipulates that a Christian may call you a sinner but you may not turn around and tell him his god's a work of fiction. The first is an opinion based in faith, the second is an opinion based in the lack of it. And yet the second is an insult, an attack, and it is apparently said out of anger. I always find that rather amusing myself.

Wow I totally agree with this post. Great post GW!

Especially the part about tolerance. A good friend of mine is born again and she's a wonderful human being. She never pushes her faith on anyone. But she was absolutely devastated when her father was diagnosed with terminal cancer because he had not accepted Jesus as his personal savior.

The day before her father died she went to the hospital pleading with him to be saved. Now while I can respect and sympathize with the woman because in her mind her father was going straight to hell, I don't believe that there is a hell, I don't believe there is a heaven and neither did her father. He didn't believe in God. Well she pleaded and pleaded with him and he finally accepted her request to pray over him and he did utter "I accept Jesus as my personal savior" and she was thrilled. She was so happy that he had done this before he died. But I on the outside saw this as a lie on behalf of her father and a sad sad statement of love for his daughter. Basically I think he just said it to comfort her.

There is something very wrong about this scenario to me. Because it caused the man to reject everything in the way he had lived his life. He was a boat captain and used to have many nights out by the ocean with the sky storming and miraculous sunrises and sun sets. He had weathered hands from his hard life. He was a noble and happy man and he didn't believe in God.


I wanted to say to my friend.


Why strip his identity away because it frightens you to think that you might be wrong? Why attempt to strip away the identity of the non believer and force or impose your identity on them?

Especially since your identity in my eyes is severely lacking in a lot of ways. You don't understand what it is to embrace the now of life, and to live in mystery rather than seeking pretend answers.

Perhaps to you, what you've discovered is real and true. But it is not to me. And my truth is a beautiful thing that I don't try to impose on you because I know you won't understand.

Grant me the same respect.

It is rather ludicrous, isn't it!

Although admittedly this may not be the best analogy I’ll give it a shot. If you were to build a number of computers for a specific task and networked them in such away as they can communicate and work together you hold the right to unplug any or all the computers. And if one of those computers begins to do things you had not intended it to do within the network you are the only person that has the right to unplug or repair the offending computer. And if one of the other computers decides to act on your behalf you have a more serious problem to resolve in whatever way you feel is best for the entire network.

Irish

What do you like on your pizza? I bet if the JW's and the Mormans would would drag around a case of beer and a pizza with them they would get a lot more people to talk to them.

I understand where you are coming from. I would guess then that if there is a God and he wanted me to do something I would say............................You have performed a illegal operation.

Double pepperoni, mushrooms and extra cheese for me please

If I had a sign on my front door that said spirituality discussion in progress all are welcome. I could expect Pagans, Atheists, Deists, Christians, Jews, Moslem's or whatever to participate. And that is my point of this thread we are in a spirituality forum that is open to all beliefs and if I chose to participate in a discussion labeled “Pagan beliefs” I should be obliged to respect those beliefs and question them with sincerity, but it would be rude and impolite to butt in and attack those beliefs without discretion simply because I do not believe them.
For the most part I tend to avoid the threads about Psi wheels and that kind of stuff not that I don’t respect that others do but because I feel I could not offer an unbiased opinion and I may be construed as insulting, so I chose not to enter the discussion. Here in the spirituality forums we seem to lack that decorum for some reason. People for some odd reason jump into a thread about Pagans, Atheists, Deists, Christians, Jews, Moslem's or whatever and are offended that the discussion is about Pagans, Atheists, Deists, Christians, Jews, Moslem's or whatever, and to myself that just does not make any sense.
If I am offended by discussion of food preparation I would avoid the threads about kitchens and cooking.

Irish

And if you programmed the computers on the network to be able to shut down/repair themselves or each other? Is it still you who has the only 'right' to do so?

For them to shut each other down would be an error (wrong/murder) they could be programed to defend themselves but only you would be justified in doing such.

Ever since I almost died in January, two of my oldest friends have been trying to save me. They were so alarmed by my sudden illness, because I'd never had more than the odd virus or flu before, that it hit them that I could die at any moment and I would be going straight to hell. I didn't die, thankfully, but my relationship with them has altered because they are determined to change me now. I'm recovering... doing well... no need to be thinking about death and all that because I'm planning on sticking around until I'm a hundred years old if not longer... but everything has changed. I found it very difficult, while I was still in hospital, having them visit me and try to talk to me about Jesus when I could hardly speak and hadn't eaten for five days... I just didn't have the energy. They prayed over me, which upset my family. I know why they want to save me. I just wish they could accept how happy I am with my own beliefs, in the same way that I accept they're happy with theirs.

My aunt begged my uncle to convert before he died. He had a heart attack and we all knew he wouldn't make it through another one, and there was a high risk that there would be a second one. He refused, and he never did convert... he died an Atheist. She gave him a Catholic burial.

Would that be because you are the only person who can reboot them?

In a sense yes, if the errors were totally unrepairable and corrupt you are the builder and therefore would have the right to dismantel the entire project and start again if you chose to do so.

Touche!!

Isn't this the same as the scenario I posted earlier? If God can repair these errors then it doesn't matter if a person gets 'shut down'. God can fix it, reboot the person. So God simply doesn't want to?

In your computer scenario, if the error shutting down the other computers was repairable would you not repair it? As you say...dismantle everything and start again. So why doesn't God repair the error in us that lets us shut down other human beings?

If this is God's will, that we are able to do this, then my premise that 'murder' by us of each other is the same as God 'murdering' one of us is correct. That we can't 'reboot' the person is immaterial because the fact that God won't has the same result, death. Or are you suggesting that God 'owns' everything so it's His right to do with as He pleases...if He has a petulant fit then murder is ok cause He's God?

The inventor is not subject to his invention. Therefore the inventor is entitled to make modification to his original invention.

Perhaps the earth is God's work bench and we are currently in the shop for repair

I believe you're reading an awful lot into that statement. You stated that people who are "truly christians" don't kill. The response to that was basically stating that people who consider themselves "truly christian" have been committing murders and other atrocities for centuries. That is an historical FACT. Whether you consider those people "truly christian" or not is your opinion. It does not negate the fact that it was still done in the name of a religion and a god that you believe in and worship.

Nowhere in that response to you does it ever imply that "those who follow the christian lifestyle must kill all those who dont believe."

You stated that "this is going in the wrong direction", but IMO, you are leading it there.

*passes God a screwdriver*

I figured it might be a good idea, even this late in the thread, to response to the OP first.



But that usually is the case with much of Christianity, and more than a few churches treat the convert business as exactly that- a business. The Mormons are somewhat notorious for their business-like approach to getting converts, although Scientology, a non Christian faith, is still the most naked in pursuit of a potential convert's money.



That's hardly true. They gain the self-satisfaction of having brought a convert into the fold, which also can reflect on them fulfilling their duties to God (if I am correct, part of the beliefs of much of Evangelical Christianity is that you are obligated to spread it). If they are in an area where their presence is weak, then they can build a community from it.



A more appropriate example would be if you believed that you had the cure for cancer, and wanted to share it with others - only, they already have their own cures for cancer, the evidence for your cure being more effective than theirs is dubious, and many doubt that the cure is even a cure at all.



They take it now -because they have to. That wasn't typical with much of Christianity's history; missionaries, particularly catholic missionaries in the form of Jesuits, followed in the wake of European imperialism, and frequently took advantage of their superior power position to put down questioning, suppress the local religions (the Inquisition was active in the New World as well as the Old), and force their religion onto the conquered.



Not if you believe that the unrighteous are preventing the Second Coming, or are afraid that the influence of the infidels is going to cause your children to go astray. Or that your position, privileged within a Christian society, will erode when that Christian glue and hierarchy is replaced with something more secular. Or if you believe that it is your obligation to save unbelievers from Hell, regardless of the cost. Or if they're simply using the Christian banner to further their own ends.



It's annoying because it reeks of self-righteousness, and is tainted by the fact that Christianity, although it has served all sides, has frequently been the banner of xenophobia, and its current equivalent, homophobia (don't forget, too, that many of the American Christian Right leaders that were around before the 1960s were racist, as well). If a muslim rubbed it in your face that he believes he is saved and you are damned, then it would get quite annoying.



It's not that simple. Missionaries frequently will use emotional weakness in the receptees to their advantage in getting a conversion.



Because it's an appalling concept, akin to telling someone that "I like you, but I'm fine with the fact that you'll be tortured unless you act like I do". Seriously, the fact that this doesn't bother more christians than it does is significant in of itself.

This in a nutshell is what makes me think God might be evil. It just totally goes against my grain to let others suffer for not worshipping something or believing.

That's what makes me mad at strict Christians. And afore all the nay sayers come scrambling out to say Jesus isn't about that...ay yah.....yes he is.

The two thieves on the cross. And one, rightly asks the logical question




You see right there how its "hurling insults" to say what any sane rational person would say if say Superman was hanging there with them.

So Jesus lets Chuck know that he's got a ticket but piddly on the other guy. But what about the thieves do we know? They stole? What if the first thieve stole food for his family and the second (saved) thief stole liquor or money. No big difference eh? Just say you believe and you are in like Flynn.

No thank you. If this is how God operates things he can kiss my butt.

It is an appaling concept. When someone tells me I'm going to hell, it's not the thought of going to hell which disturbs me (because I don't believe in such a place)... it's the fact that the person who says that is fine with the idea. It makes my mind boggle.

Ya, well... as a Christian, I've been told I'm going to hell for my beliefs by other Christians (mostly on forums like this, never to my face)... never really let it bother me... I have a tendency to write them off as official passengers on the short yellow bus. *shrug*

Thank you! I gave up since they didn't even try to take the words at face value.

GB you hit the nail on the head, I have observed just many of hte points you have spotlighted...

the Mormons have it down too.... they are getting their tithe.... the catholics they call you at home to get the donation....LOL Its a business straight across the board preying on the human insecurities its generating... ... got to love it.....IMO its ingenious i must say the greatest hoax ever played on man as a freind of mine once said.......Fear creates slaves simple as that....

Of course it is, $$$$. The only religious group that I have a load of respect for is the Salvation Army. They are all about community. They run food banks, soup kitchens and their stores are what mostly finance them. They are not out to make themselves rich.

My church doesn't pass the donation plate. Never. We do have expenses such as the property tax and miniscule electric bill on our meeting house. When the bills come due, we all take care of it at a business meeting, we each break out our checkbooks, give what we can to pay the bills, and call it good.

We do however, a huge amount of charity work, but the funds we raise don't come from or go to church coffers (we don't have a coffer) they go directly to the charity--most of which have nothing to do with religion, in fact, I can't think of one that is religious in nature.

We do have a few national (and international) funds that are managed by our national organization, but those are very specific and no one is required to donate to them. There's one for Word Peace work that is performed at the UN, one for prison reform, one for Native American affairs, and a handful of other important social issues. The Salvation Army does an awesome job of charitable work for the less fortunate... we like to fill in in places where they don't.

So no, it's not "straight across the board" ... I know plenty of non-denominational (and denominational) churches that operate in pretty much the same way my sect does.

this first sentence kills me. lol funny how bent out of shape christians become when atheists try spreading their message to give someone the opportunity to hear something that could help them......how's that shoe on the other foot feel ?

* although I've never heard an atheist try spreading their message other than for the seperation of church and state. which our founding fathers wanted.




note - I am not an atheist either. more of an agnostic.

wow I was reading a post by you elsewhere a couple of minutes ago and thinking the same of you. you can't beat logic. although your words flow much more easier than mine I think.

I agree that there are two types of Christians. There are those who have faith in their beliefs and prosper [or not] in their life and are generally happy about it. These people may occasionally mention their faith to others but choose to live their faith [i.e. good works, being kind and tolerant to others] rather than preech it.

The other type of Christian veiws themselves as superior, as in that "elite club" that was mentioned earlier, and who needs to preech their religion to everyone within earshot. And there are many reasons they would have for doing this - it differs.

I know a woman personally who claims to be Christian. Her house is filled with religious trinkets and insipirational wall hangings. She goes to chuch almost every Sunday with her even more so religious husband. The church that they attend asks them to recruit people or "spread the word" to get more members. They have a goal each month. I went to this church twice, out of respect for this person and what I saw amazed me. The pastor spoke of the church needing money only after he talked about his mission trip to South Africa, including to mention all the luxurious places and whatnot. The man wore a Rolex. His suit most likely cost more than the average person in his audience made in a week.
The woman also mentally and occasionally phsyically abuses those around her at home. She has been present for the deaths of two animals [family pets] though she claims that they were both accidents. She lies pathologically and then claims that she's not lying. She has committed an ex husband and two children to mental instituations where they were adversly treated though she refuses to even go to therapy. For a person who claims to be a Christian, more evil eminates from this woman than from a serial killer who has no remorse. She believes that she is always right and that others around her are either crazy or stupid.

On the other, more friendlier hand I also knew a woman who was a devout Catholic. She attended church every sunday save for when she grew older and was admitted to a hospital but as soon as she was out she went to church again. She had very little decration in her home save for a few family photos, a cherub wall sculpture and a simple cross. She lived each day treating others with kindess and respect. She always thought of others before herself and never spoke an ill word about another person for as long as I knew her. She usually didn't mention what faith she was to others, but some automatically knew she was at least Christian. She has also done alot of volunteer work through the churches she attended.

So these are probably two extreme polar opposite accounts, but it demonstrates that not all Christians are good and not all are bad. Each religion on this planet has its good and bad apples and unfortunately the only ones you usually hear about are the bad ones.

I agree with the above post, but I like to think there are 3 general classifications, which apply to any religion, belief system or organization.

1) The lukewarm; the once a year church-goers who go to be seen; the curious and the chatterboxes. They don't really believe in anything.
2) The bombastic, aggressive, in your face converters who think only they are right.
3) The quiet ones who just get on with it. They believe the essential tenets and teachings and have some consideration for others.

Ah I forgot about the "lukewarms". Well i think i was going for the polar opposites but I do recall knowing people like that.