That! Is it exactly. Thank you for answering "What?" for me. And a "Hello" to your rat family.

I think minority groups will always have a hard time convincing everyone else.

I was in the vicinity.

The ratties say "hello" back... well, more of an "eeep" really, but it translates as a greeting.

I was lambasted for saying 'heaven forbid' which is simply a common expression, until I said I'm not a Christian.

point 1.

as for it being a pyramid scheme , concidering it is one of the biggest businesses in the world with the smallest percent going towards the poor and needy,nstead building mega churches to rake in more , tv shows to rake in more , ect ... the things jesus was against. the worship of money.

In Christianity Incorporated: How Big Business Is Buying the Church
, Michael L. Budde and Robert W. Brimlow write:

[T]he transformation of lay Christians — whose baptism into the church gives them an essential, active, and dramatic share of God’s mission on earth — into “consumers” and “customers” is appearing in denominational and freestanding churches alike.

Kim Wilson, a church marketing consultant in Atlanta, boasts that her company’s efforts “help churches increase attendance by utilizing proven customer service techniques that produce successful companies.” A California-based firm uses demographic and target-market research to help churches tailor their ministries and message to the “needs and unique preferences” of persons in their “target market.” The alliance between American Christianity and American capitalism is older than most realize, but is still relatively recent. The earliest of modern “revivals,” which led to the development of what we call evangelical Christianity, were instituted by D.L. Moody, a pioneer in the effort to evangelize the masses through revivals across America.

Moody wasn’t a typical preacher; instead he was a salesman who used the same techniques to sell Christ that he had once used to sell shoes. With him, market capitalism became fused with evangelical Christianity, helping produce the forms and structures taken for granted in American Christianity today. The manner in which Moody manipulated the press — and in which the press used Moody — foreshadowed the later successes of mass evangelists like Billy Sunday and Bill Graham.

When churches treat Christians like “consumers,” just how “Christian” does the church remain? What does being a “Christian” have to do with having their “preferences” catered to by ministers and pastors?


American Churches, Capitalism, Consumerism
http://www.about.com/

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Alright... Alright... Let's take out the crusades because really I even believe it's not true teachings and not part of the bible. The inquisitions well they are supported and to torture a few to save more souls is right with god, surely... But here, I'll ignore it for the sake of arguement.


What about your god? He's murdered babies, had women raped, killed millions in brutal a genocide, has commanded wars to kill, steal, rape young girls after you kidnap them from their homes and families, has a slant against change, furthers discrimination both in sexuality and gender, teaches people myths that oppress the mind from searching out truths and in all this tolerance and loving I just mentioned... It sends nonbelievers, babies, mentally retarded people straight to hell for simply not accepting christ as their savior.

That's niether ethical or moral. It shouldn't be toleranted just because people want to believe it. It's just simply wrong to ignore these parts of the bible while pushing forward a loving christ image when all you have to do is simply turn pages in a book to expose these facts of christianity.

Yes, those things to annoy and anger me. It's my held morals that those items are wrong. Nor should they be toleranted simply because people want to believe/support such horrible things.

by the way no one who truly exercised a christian way of life every invaded or started a war with anyone ---?

what a cop out answer. so all those crusades , inquisitions and wars that are and were religious in nature and started by christians , they weren't really christian? and how about all those christians that agreed as well and fought ? they weren't christian either ? what about the mass majority who think now that what we are actually fighting in the middle east is a religious war ? Like in Iraq - we , actually 'christian' bush , started it.Bush has called them evil. so yes it's undertone is religious. do you back him and his lies and concider yourself a christian.?

you may not consider those who start wars and fights them ( like our soldiers ) christian , but if you stand by and support or do nothing you yourself are not a christian either by inaction. So do those acts have anything to do with you ? of course they do. ignorance seems to be your shoe size.

To what "minority" would you be referring, please? And thank you for the Hubble video link.

point 2

let's look at it this way. it isn't the cure for cancer.

your belief is not a truth. a truth is the sun revolves around the earth. you have a theory.

as for ridicule and humiliation - christians aren't alone. How many christians degrade other religions as 'not being the truth' ( just as other religions do)?
As a lesbian I can tell you about your religion and ridicule and humiliation - not to mention how you want to affect law - that's a whole seperate issue. so stop preaching to the choir , religious harrassment of people not like them is well documented. Ask the American Natives , the athiest , the jews. just to name a few.

did it ever occur to anyone if religion did keep it's mouth shut there would have been alot less wars ? and yes religion is selfish otherwise it wouldn't have started wars . selfish and insecure.

Every life that you are accusing God of ending you fail to mention or acknowledge that He is responsible for all life to begin with. To quote Bill Cosby, “If he brought you into existence he has every right to take you out of it”.
He has murdered no one; He gives life and takes it away. And has the ability to reverse it and or renew it.
Our moment of physical existence is by the grace of God and is but a mere billionth of a second in eternity. For some that is not nearly enough and for others it is way to much time.
Hell according to scripture was built for those that chose not to be apart of the Creators original plan, free choice/free will. Nowhere does it say “babies, mentally retarded people straight to hell for simply not accepting Christ as their savior.” Those that end up in eternal separation from the Creator (Hell) chose that option themselves.
The suffering is just the realization that you “knew that” before you arrived there but never acknowledged it.

Irish

Mmneh.. can't say I feel any sympathy for christians being persicuted...

Being stug to many times by a few high and mighty ones over and over... *shrugs*

So it's perfectly fine if you don't let nature run it's course in someone's death? That's murder if you cut short a persons life. Using your logic, if you have children... You have the right to kill the child at anytime because you brought it into this world. It's just insane to think a brutal murder of millions of humans being is acceptable to you and you still think it's moral.

Original sin says babies and the mentally retarded go to hell for not accepting christ.

What about the other items I mentioned?

Because this god made humans he has the right to have one human rape another?

Hold up a sec irish.............if he is accusing God of ending lives all over the joint......that don't make sense, well not really, considering if he DONT believe in the christian God to begin with...so I wondered, how on earth can anyone get mad at God...then claim they dont believe in him..........therefore he can't fail to mention what life he brought into the world, if he don't believe God is responcible!!!!!!!!

Well then what in the name of yahoo are they getting mad at???..

We all dont go around getting mad at things we don't believe in do we??

In that case..that b****** Santa owes me a lot of good long awaited presents...I should type out a nasty poision letter...

I'm going by the belief that is immoral. I find it quite disgusting genocide that involves millions of human beings is an alright belief to people. Something is just not right with them at all.

Christians believe God created nature, so it runs the course He directs.
Only mankind can commit murder because he has no power over death and is unable to reverse it. God’s first commandment to man is thou shalt not commit murder.
Babies and mentally retarded people are unable to make the free choice given to those who can reason, and are exempt, they get the free pass.
The rest get the millionaire question at the end of the day, “Is that your final answer”

Irish

Are you ever going to come up with ANY new stuff? Do you EVER actually pay attention to the replies people post to you? How many times do you have to get an answer to your question before you come up with something new? Why are you so angry at God?

Do you mind giving the chapter/verse for this?



What do you mean... at the end of the day, is that your final answer?

So you're defending genocide by an all mighty and all powerful being who could have surely used peaceful methods in all his power but refused to? It's no excuse to murder millions just for fun.

Yet, in the bible to there are passages that direct murder. You said in another thread that the laws of OT didn't apply to christians because of Jesus and now here you are using hte 10 commandments in your arguement. So what is it?

What? Where does it say that they are exempt?

Final answer is your cop out for the arguements of rape, wars, slavery, and discrimination? Well that's just dandy... Why did you even post at all this thread if you are going to refuse to talk on the issues of why christians annoy others? It's just willful ignorance here. If you just ignore it, you think it's just going to be alright?

You can't be angry at something which doesn't exist. But you can be disgusted by the concept.

Well then, shouldn't it be the PEOPLE to get at and not the god?

Least ye forget the religion is man made..just saying

Disgusted by a concept of something which doesn't exist? Why waste your time?

I think you were prolly meant to say that to me too LOL

Good answer...but still why do so so many rant at God..when its NOT really God, it's the many men that wrote that stuff about God, making God out to be a killer..and those that make up excuses for it all...............isn't that what you meant??

Either way if I post against their god or themselves, I'm still posting against their belief.

If you post about their belief, from what you have read ect...then yea I can see how you have something going on with that....makes sense

But when someone that doesnt believe such a God existed..it looks weird to blast at something you dont belive in...if you get my drift

I dont believe in the christian God...but I blame those that wrote all the horrid texts..so i blame THEM..as once a christian, I was meant to sit there like the rest, and make up excuses for the d***headed mistakes MAN made in the bible....that's why i chose not to follow it...I don't believe God did those things, and i'll be damned if i am going to suck it all in and make up excuses like - he giveth..so he taketh away <--thats supposed to make it all right again??

Somehow I very much doubt that every last christian on here today, would sit and say at their MOST dearest loved ones funeral..especially one who has went long before their time, and say --- "ohh well, they will be missed but God giveth, so he taketh away..thats how it goes...poor wee Sammy, never stood a chance at the age of 5 with Cancer, he was my only son...but hey hey, its Gods plan I guess..after all God created him..

Nahh i dont believe these christians would do oor say such a thing...not about a loved one NO...some things are easier said than done

It's so easy for any one of them, to sit on here NOW, and defend their bible....cuz the words have ZERO effect, when someone blasts the text within the book.............it's too easy to say --- >> the God created..then he can taketh away <-----------tooo easy.................................BUT not easy if it were a dear close loved member of their OWN family...it would be more like HOLD THE PHONE A SEC...RANT RAVE!!!

It’s funny how the created thinks himself more moral than the Creator. The invented wants to now be the Inventor.
Kratos you are guiltier than those you accuse because you are the one that spews forth hatred and intolerance on a daily basis within the spirituality forums at all religions and beliefs that don’t’ jive with you. I have to ask why you spend so much of your energies fighting something you don’t believe in anyway, that sounds rather masochistic and an extreme waste of your limited time.
And come to think of it why am I wasting my time explaining to you something you do not want to comprehend anyway.

Irish

I think it's a bit difficult to be honest... if you believe the bible is a load of old mush then you may be disgusted by the men who created it and those who believe in it, but those who believe in it will insist that you don't refer to the bible as made up, so then you may turn your attention to the thing those people believe in. I think that's what happens sometimes.

On one of the other threads, I have posted a response to a hypothetical question in which I stated my reasons for not worshiping the Christian god, based on his flaws (as described in the bible), and the person I posted to has accused me of being angry at god... but I said I didn't believe in his god from the outset.

The biblical god might be a work of fiction, but his followers aren't. I doubt anyone who posts anything which is critical of the biblical god or the bible actually gives two hoots about what a Christian believes... it's the impact that belief has which affects those who do not believe the same which concerns non-believers.

If the 'inventor' doesn't have the morals, someone has to.

Guilty of going against intolerant religions. I'm intolerant of the items religions practices and preaches in many cases. I'm so very sorry I don't agree with baby killing and rape. If you want to see that it's alright, that's insane to me.

Extreme waste of my time? How about you? What point is there in posting for you? I post to learn. I've learned and been forced to learn tons more about culture, religion and the world around me on this forum. The day this forum stops teaching me or having me learn is the day, I'll PM Saruman to have him disable my account.

I don't know why you do. I'm not forcing you to post in any way. It's your free will to. Though it was also your free will to post this thread with the questions. I gave you an answer and now you're trying to defend you postition with cop outs and immorality.

Why ask to have your account disabled..all because of one thread??

SaRu once told me he valued your posts...don't believe me? ask him

The forum will never stop teaching me... That was my point.

Can we say................................OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPSSSSSS LOL sorry my bad

So just what is it you think motivates a Christian in telling others of their faith and joy and how they achieved it?

doubt.
in it's attempt to recruit more to believe , the more you have the more 'right' you are. which of course isn't true. Cults do the same. no difference.

And why does it annoy and anger a lot of people?here in America at least it annoys because faith is a personal matter. If someone is interested in christianity then they can find resources to research. but what christians are doing is like akin to recruiting. 'saving souls' is not a truth but a theory just like the rest of religion.


"One objection I hear a lot, more from the non believers is the threat of “Hell” Why would hell be a threat to someone who does not believe in it? If someone told me I was going to Bonga Bonga if I don’t believe in BoB. I would be more concerned with whom the heck is BoB? Bonga Bonga would not even be on the radar at that point.
And to most Christians hell is just the eternal separation between man and his Creator and non believers are already riding that club car anyway."

just because someone isn't christian doesn't mean they don't believe in God. and Hell is and can be thought of as a sly derogatory term used by christians and others to actually point out that those who don't believe at all or of a belief other than yours as 'less than' and if one believes in a different view of God that they are 'not worthy' of God when in fact they are even without jesus as a middle man. it's almost a prejudice in a sense. the word hell itself then takes on a different meaning.

Would it be all right with you if I come to your door, Irish, and tell you how wonderful being a Pagan is and give you some tracks. How about if I come when your soccer game is on. How about if I talk to your kids about it on the street. Come to the dark side kiddies we have cookies. It is ok if you don't convert today cause I'll be back next week and we can go through the whole thing again and I can tell you if you don't become a Pagan the Gods and Goddess will send you back as a worm.

Now admit it you are glad we Pagans don't do that kind of thing. It is forbidden in our religion, each person must follow their own Path.

Many Christians after learning they can't convert me have stopped being my friend. It hurts me to the core they judge me by my faith and not my heart.

I could'nt be ar*ed going around doors asking people to take an intrest in my beliefs...meh ...because Im lazy and I like how mine works for me, so why would I want others to benifit from my good luck LOL...forgot to add im greedy too lol



Besides i dont like the idea of getting buckets of cold water thrown around me

I would council don't let it hurt you over much, because by doing that they then are judged themselves as a poor example of what a christian is suppose to represent.

And I love the analogy you put to Irish. I dare say if Atheists knocked door to door, passed out tracts, stopped children and asked them if they've ever considered not having faith, it would be an entirely different matter. As it would be, and is in fact, when Krishna's do their thing at airports and the like, as Moonies do theirs where ever they can find someone to approach, as Jehovah Witnesses do their bit, when they are well aware there is no heaven waiting for them, yet they seek converts to their faith regardless. If everyone that held faith behaved as evangelical christians do, and proselytized to the world at any given chance, evangelical christians would be the first to call it a name that would not include being tolerant of such measures. Amazing double standard, in the winning of the souls one first has to have the faith needs saving from the god that made the condition possible, when omniscience cursed it's creation.

I've given him that anology before.. he tends to ***** foot around it and give some kind of blanket statement about how it's impropper or something.

Mneh...

By minority I mean it is highly likely that the rest of the sentient universe is specifically non-human and therefore non-Christian,

and due to the great speeds at which galaxies are receding they will never know of humans or Christians and their beliefs.

Thank you for the clarification.

I know this thread is about Christians but I think the same could apply to Muslims.....When my niece converted years ago from Christianity to Islam, for a long time she would try and 'convert' me......I knew that she finally found a connection with God, a purpose/meaning in her life, for the first time in her life, and was eager and excited to share it with me......

I told her one day, please stop trying to convert me, it wont happen.....She was cool with that and we still have talks about Islam and I've learnt lots of things about the religion.....I think there's nothing wrong with talking to others about Christianity but if that person asks to be left alone, well this request should be respected as well......


Please note: Take it easy with me cause I'm reaaally close to my due date and any excitement can bring on labour....

OMGS KIDS! *snickers*

Good luck =D

hee hee...if you really want to bring on your labour chick, and you cant take it no more...take a nice hot (ish) bath, thats what got me and a friend of mind to move along lol...

good luck to ya girl

Thanks matey....

I've never heard of a hot bath, sweetie.....I know of something else that can help but who's in the mood for that ??

I'll need all the luck I can get...

We can look at it in terms of any faith that promotes evangelism. I can understand wanting to express your joy at finding what you feel to be the right answer. I can understand wanting to perform acts of merit to glorify whatever deity. What I don't understand is the idea of one person's path to happiness being the best answer for anyone (in some cases, everyone) else.

Would it not be wiser to encourage and guide those who are seeking along your path (and thus aiding them toward a stronger faith and a deeper understanding ) than to possibly divert someone off their own path to happiness because your is some how "more right"?

*edit* Good luck and safe birthing to you Mum.

It is not the faithful that I fear it is the fanatics that trouble me. When you right with god a vibe flows around you. People tend to relax around you. The thing that annoy's me about religion in general is the power that it gives people and power corrupts. Churchs will attack non believers and anything to do with magic, psychic abilities, or science. Look at the creation vs. evolution debate. What if 1 day to God is 10 million years to us? Yet mention that to the average church go'er and see what happens. I keep my religion private and don't parade around town with a jesus shirt on and a dozen some odd sticker on my truck. People like that are often showing their religion and not being it. If you want to freak a jehovahs witness out just answer the door with "Satan said he would send you!" Oh the looks you'll get. Hey Mum24/7 congrad's on the kids.

Good luck MUM!!!

I couldn't agree more rev.....

As a non-practising Christian myself, since joining UM, I realised that I didn't know anything about my religion and a couple of lovely people on here , have been kind enough to show/tell me a few things......

Thanks for your good wishes......

And to xenodude and jpalz, thanks as well.....

I can handle Christians ok...It's those 'born-again' Christians that annoy me...finding God again & all that yea sure whatever, but then they never leave you or your family alone, always trying to twist & convert your own personal beliefs to theirs and all...

Worse yet whenever they(friends & relatives)visit...man you can never get rid of them...

Rebel you feed them didn't you. You can't do that, their like stray cats once you feed'm they never leave you alone. LOL
I agree with you about born again christians. When stuff like that happens "Join Us" from evil dead 2 starts repeating over and over in my head. Become like us a mindless drone.

lol! Yea i hear ya xenodude & i do feed them, i don't want to seem/be inhospitable thats just not me, after all they are relatives & or friends(?) that have converted some of which you've known your whole life so...well you get the picture xenodude...


Those ones that just come off the street going door to door they're easy to get rid of, and if the don't get the message...

*''whistle whistle here Diesel here Leroy here boys whistle whistle''*