Destiny protest dominates talks
Radical and conservative Maori leaders joined forces at Waitangi yesterday to back a call by Destiny Church Bishop Brian Tamaki not to "defile" New Zealand's soil with "foreign religions".

Veteran activist Titewhai Harawira and Anglican ministers Gray Theodore from Otara and Pereme Porter from the North Shore paid Bishop Tamaki the compliment of coming down off the stage on the Te Tii Reserve to hongi with him, even though protocol demanded that he should approach them as the tangata whenua of the local Ngapuhi tribe.

They then led about 1800 members of Destiny and other evangelical churches across the bridge over the Waitangi River to deliver a "declaration" to delegates at an Asia-Pacific Interfaith Dialogue meeting, stating that New Zealand was a Christian nation and rejecting a draft statement sponsored by the Human Rights Commission that this country had no "established religion".
Source: New Zealand Herald

Personally I am shocked to think that anyone could consider themselves so self important that they would do this during an Inter-faith confrence. The intolerance shown by Brian Tamaki is disgusting in my eyes. And I am stupified at the fact that other Christian based faith leaders supported him.

I beleive that Brian Tamaki's actions are hostile and it actually enforces my opinion that dualistic attitudes encourage segregation and hate not the love that these people originally intend to give out and create.

Hail and Welcome Lady Kismit long time no see.

Have the natives of New Zealand lost the faith of their ancestors. I don't understand? If Christianity was brought to New Zealand by Europeans then would it not be a foreign faith. State religions always turn out bad no matter what religion it is. All you have to do is look at the Middle East to see that. Everyone must be free to worship as they wish to have true freedom of and from religion. My heart go out to you living in such a dilemma in your homeland.

exactly , christianity is a foreign religion . just like here in America. it is not the Native religion of origin.

I believe that the leader of this particular Church, wich coincidently enforces a 10% donation of income from it's worshippers and who enjoyed a $40,000.00 dollar world cruise with his wife a while back is infact a Maori. I would have thought that he knew the foundations of the countries religion were not European.

But I guess when your on to a good money maker it always pay to try and increase your income base. This guy really upsets me.

Good to see you to Darkwind, I've been hanging out in the back ground lately.

Isn't it sad that people pay others to preach the "word of God"? Wasn't that whole "spread the word" thing supposed to be done out of love and obedience? Reminds me of politicians. Oh wait...

I think he talking about the European population. Any other religion to them would be considered foreign.

What's happened, at least in the Western European countries where there is still an 'official', tax-supported religion (a la Church of England), is that the religion has become rather lazy, and the inhabitants don't seem to give a damn about religion in general. Perhaps we should encourage this situation.

Being a pastor is a full-time occupation in the modern world. Running a church involves more than preaching once a week on Sunday morning - it involves mountains of paper-work to deal with, liaising with church members, church leaders, the wider community of the church, collaborating with other churches. It also involves meeting up with individual members and counseling them when they request it, it requires visiting members who are sick, it includes conducting marriages when required, conducting funerals if required, strangers will call on the pastor as the first point of contact when coming to the church. Many pastors work 60+ hours a week, and that doesn't include preparing for sermons, youth talks, events and more.

In short, it is just not feasible for a pastor to not get paid. However, i do agree that there are many pastors out there who are being paid too much, and that is where the poblems and issues arise.

As to the question of State Religions, I don't think it has ever been valid in any society. Enforcing a state-wide belief is just not right, considering that there are many people who do not hold to the belief that the state does, and if they hold a different view they can be subject to all forms of persecution (government sanctioned persecution even). Religion/spirituality should always be about the personal walk of faith that an individual holds as true. You can't regulate Belief, but State Religions attempt to do that.

Regards, PA

Most pastors these days are hypocrites. They know very little of anything spiritual. When a bunch of organized christians get upset over invading religions it is like seeing one political party get upset of another political party's policies.

The day of the humble christian is gone. All we have now is modern christians who are more intellectual and complacent in a belief system dictated to them by a certain bible translation or church than ones with any real spiritual conviction or knowing. I have yet to come across a true christian yet!

"I think that we have now reached a stage of religious maturity where it may be possible for someone to remain perfectly faithful to a Christian and Western monastic commitment and yet learn in depth from, say, a Buddhist or Hindu discipline or experience." --Fr. Thomas Merton, one of the two greatest Christian theologians of the 20th Century (along with Paul Tillich), from The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton

Most Christians I have met have been hypocrites. They say to love your nieghbour and your enemies but then agree that war is acceptable. I just love hearing it because it makes for a good laugh.

Missmelswells though is a very decent christian. There are many others of course but not many. Most Christians I have found on Unexplained mysteries are more just indoctrinated than spiritual.


As for this group in new zealand. They make me laugh!@! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Why would a truly humble religious person care whether the human rights comission said there was no established religion or not?

Sorry if I struck a nerve there, PA. I was referring more to televangelists and such, who don't have the responsibilities of running a church, merely raking in the pensions of the elderly. Take care of yourself!

Jesus didn't take money for any of his hard work and preaching...

You are of course correct. But the question still remains...How much did Jesus get paid for preaching? What was Jesus salary for visiting the sick? The churches have made all of these things a 'cottage industry'. What was Jesus salary at the time of the crucifixion? And...why is the only display of anger by Jesus in the NT directed completely and totally at the church who had become completely fixated on money?

copy cat lol pfffft

Great minds often think alike...simultaneously.

HAHAHAHAHAHA You dont expect that most christians behave like christ now do you?

True, Jesus did not receive money for his ministry, but he did receive food from those who were willing to give it, and lodging from those who were willing to give it (I'm sure he also spent a lot of time sleeping outdoors). In the modern world, I'm not sure this is feasible. It is no longer a case where one can just walk into the wilderness and sleep under a hedge for the night when traveling between towns. Lodging is a necessity in a way that it was not 2000 years ago.

And after all, to be a pastor, one generally spends at least 7 years at Tertiary education training (3 years in a university degree, and then 4 years at Bible College). For anyone else spending seven years at university (people studying medicine or forensics come to mind), they can expect to be on six-figure salaries when they finish studying (as a base-salary). Most pastors will be closer to the average salary of an average worker (in Australia, that would range between $40 - $ 60K). And even then, a lot of the money that they get goes straight back into the church, especially pastors of smaller churches that don't get the funding needed to even keep a building from falling down on them.

Then there are many pastors who have a wife and children to support, something Jesus did not need to content with (that we know of).

I'm sorry, people might not agree, but I have to say that pastors should be paid. I think we can argue about how much they should be getting (certainly those mega-church millionaires who go up on the pulpit in Armani suits and Rolex watches are way overpaid), but I don't think we should argue that they should not be paid. Every other profession in this world receives income (the way someone survives), why are pastors supposed to be treated differently, and more importantly, what alternatives would you suggest (I know Paul worked as a Tent-maker to pay his way, and Jesus as a carpenter probably carved little wooden crucifixes for people to wear (j/k), but as I said, I think a pastor is a full-time job in a way that it was not in the past) ..... ???

Regards, PA

Because it isn't a 'profession'? This is where I see the problem with Christianity at it's heart and soul...the money factor. The Church has turned Faith into a 'full time job'. I thought it was the Great Commission, Not the Great Profession.

So when a pastor is devoting his entire life to serving others, most times spending more than 60 hours a week visiting the sick, the homeless, the members of the church, counseling people, helping people.... and then spending a further 10 hours just writing a sermon for Sunday (that's how long it takes my old pastor to write a sermon, it took me about 16 hours to write one for youth group a couple of times, but I'm not quite as practiced as the pastor was)....... and you suggest a pastor...... does what? Takes up a night-job as a check out chick? Or perhaps he should organise a roster for people at the church to have him stay at their place for two weeks at a time? Or perhaps you have another suggestion. Being a pastor, whether you like it or not, is a profession. All Christians are called to be witnesses to Christ (which is what the Great Commission was, as you said, joc), the only difference between a layman and a full-time minister is that the full-time minister has more time to carry these out (because he is getting income from doing so), while the layman has to balance this with a career of their own.

Know what I mean.....

The Great Commission was to spread the Gospel of Christ to the world. The Churches, while a portion of their offerings do go to mission work are for the most part feeding the sheep. I guess the shepherds got paid for tending the flock...so, yeah, I see what you mean.

You just made the pastor sound a lot more important than Jesus himself...like a whole bunch of excuses as to WHY a paster should and does get paid for spreading the word of God, and yet jesus got no cash, but it took you some time to add he may well have gotten food

You forgot clean all about how Jesus WORKED as a carpenter for a living <--Im not even christian, yet see this as a much better explaination

When Jesus spread the word of God, he did it for FREE....he earned his living as a carpetner

In reality if someone wants to act and live like Jesus, they would get a real job, and find time like Jesus did, to spread the word of God for FREE.... IMO of course...LOL read it and weep pfffffttt PA ha ha

He would do as he did in his own time. From childhood, Jesus studied the Jewish religious texts and attended the synagogue. For most of his adult life, he earned his living as a carpenter - what today would be considered an honorable, skilled working-class profession. http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/essays/wwjd2.html

I think in todays society you can't expect people to live without an income, I have to agree with P.A. there.

However with Destiny Church it is an imposed 10% tax not a request for donation. There was a story run on the news a few years back about a lady who could not afford bread and milk for her children but always paid her 10% she felt as though she had to. This is the failing with dualistic concepts and those people like Brian Tamaki who are willing to manipulate them.

The concept goes...... "Pay us or be in our Gods bad books." I just can't cope with the, your either one of Us or your one of Them mentality.

PA forgot that Jesus earned a living as a carpetner...he preached the word of God for free

My point was - If someone wants to spread the word of God, and want to live like Jesus, they should earn a living with a propper job and spread the word of God for free like Jesus did

The pastors could live like thye Buddhist monks, by the grace of donations and food gifts from the faithfull of their comunities.

I seriously doubt they would dream of it lol..............would love to ask them WHY??

I didn't forget, BM. I'm just pointing out that being a pastor is not the same role as what jesus did. Jesus did not stay in one church congregation looking after the same people every week, dealing with the issues of the congregation. If you want to find a modern equivalent to Jesus' form of ministry, look to the missionaries. Jesus wandered from place to place, sharing the good news of the Kingdom of God with people he came across. He'd heal the sick and provide food for those who needed it. Missionaries hold a similar role today, and they do not get paid. They live off their savings and off the generosity of others to provide for them.

In the Western world, the days are gone when people can survive without income. Yes, Jesus would have worked part of his time as a carpenter, but a lot of the time he would not have had income of any sort. He would have survived by sleeping under hedges (or in a house when available), and by eating food from the crop-harvest. Can you imagine anyone knocking on the door of a stranger seeking shelter for the night? It was common in Jesus' day. Can you imagine walking to a crop harvest and asking to pick some grain? It happened in Jesus' day also. You could survive without money in Jesus' day. You cannot survive without money now. If you don't have money to pay the supermarket, you don't eat. There are no crop harvests for a fulltime pastor to pick grain

And yes, as suggested they could survive off the food donations of the Faithful, like Buddhist Monks, but there are two things I see in this - first, Buddhist monks live at the temple, they don't have to pay rent/mortgage on houses (pastors do). Second, Monks are celibate. Many pastors are not and therefore have a wife and children to also look after. Therefore, pastors need money to survive, and they just don't have the time to earn it by holding a part time job.

But I daresay we're moving away from the topic question of State Religions. This will be my last post on the matter for that reason. Apologies to Kismit for moving this a little off topic

Regards, PA

That is just sad. Shameful when someone totally seems to have denied their own culture and religion, and adopt the worst qualities of another. Just sad.

Yea but a true christain prides themselves on living their life as close as jesus did, in reality not one single preacher of christianity does this...they all do it for money, unlike jesus

If they wanted to be as close to Jesus and try and live like he did (key word is close)...they would have a real job and in their spare time, preach for free....that makes sense. Preaching for money is wrong IMO

If you had a preacher 9pastor or whatever)..that had a regular job, but at the same time, found time over the years to get a bunch of christians together, raised money for their church, or even rented a building out...and preached for free, that IMO would be close to jesus...again I must stress IMO