Full Version: Animal Religion
This is most likely a really stupid topic but anyways do you think it is possible anmals have a religion. if they did and i'm not saying i believe this but if they had religin i think it would most likely be like the old Greek religion with a God for different things on earth. But when you think about it it is possible for instance ant colonies can build armies and attack other ant colonies or termites for example and have tactics and stuff so if they can organize that and carry it out maybe they could have a religion. Just a thought
QUOTE(Adcox @ May 30 2007, 11:56 PM) [snapback]1701899[/snapback]
This is most likely a really stupid topic but anyways do you think it is possible anmals have a religion. if they did and i'm not saying i believe this but if they had religin i think it would most likely be like the old Greek religion with a God for different things on earth. But when you think about it it is possible for instance ant colonies can build armies and attack other ant colonies or termites for example and have tactics and stuff so if they can organize that and carry it out maybe they could have a religion. Just a thought
I would say no...the majority of the animal kingdom doesn't need a reason for a religion. We need religion to answer the big questions of "Where do we come from" and stuff like that. Animals focus only on survival and the continuation of the species.
Their may be some animal out their that practices something that resembles a religion but I doubt they worship a god like we do. A moral and ethical belief system is probably at most what they could have.
I would say... that's something we may never know.
^Seconded.
Do Oompa-Loompas count as "animals"? I think they worship the Cocoa Bean...
Do Oompa-Loompas count as "animals"? I think they worship the Cocoa Bean...
QUOTE(Adcox @ May 31 2007, 03:56 AM) [snapback]1701899[/snapback]
This is most likely a really stupid topic but anyways do you think it is possible anmals have a religion. if they did and i'm not saying i believe this but if they had religin i think it would most likely be like the old Greek religion with a God for different things on earth. But when you think about it it is possible for instance ant colonies can build armies and attack other ant colonies or termites for example and have tactics and stuff so if they can organize that and carry it out maybe they could have a religion. Just a thought
no, animals are smart,
I agree with SC it is something we don't know, and may never know. I do think animals have souls and thus have an after life. In my religion there is a God of the forest who protects animals, He is commonly called the Green Man.
I did find an interesting ideas by Jane Goodall.
If all this indicates animals have religion who knows but I like to think it does.
I did find an interesting ideas by Jane Goodall.
QUOTE
Goodall said she has observed what could be interpreted as a precursor to an animist religion among the chimps when they come upon a spectacular waterfall in the jungle. She said the chimps seem to exhibit a sense of awe, standing in the stream below for 50 minutes at a time and staring at the falling water when they don't normally like to get wet. They will sometimes sit on a rock and watch the cascade, or swing from a vine into the mist caused by the falling water.
"We find that chimps do have a sense of wonder, of awe," Goodall said. "I think we can see the roots of some kind of religion from chimp behavior - [inhibited] by their lack of language."
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/10...16-science.html
"We find that chimps do have a sense of wonder, of awe," Goodall said. "I think we can see the roots of some kind of religion from chimp behavior - [inhibited] by their lack of language."
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/10...16-science.html
QUOTE
A storm’s fierce tempo moves chimpanzees to mimic the force’s strength. Is this awareness of a greater power, a form of worship, or evidence of animal soul?
by Dr. Jane Goodall
MAY/JUNE 2001--One day in 1960, in the early days of my long-term study of chimpanzees, I saw something amazing. I was observing a group -- seven adult males and a few females and young -- on the opposite slope of a steep ravine. Suddenly, a rainstorm, which had been threatening for sometime, broke. The chimps had just finished feeding and were walking up to the open ridge. As they paused, a bolt of lightning struck, followed by a heart-stopping clap of thunder.
As if this was a signal, one of the big males stood upright and began moving rhythmically from foot to foot, eyeing the low branch of a tree. Then he charged down the slope toward the trees he had just left. There, swinging around the trunk of a small tree to break his headlong rush, he leaped into the low branches and sat motionless.
Two other males charged after him. Both broke off huge branches as they ran, dragging them and hurling them ahead. A fourth male charged, leaped into a tree, tore off a large branch, jumped with it to the ground, and ran with it down the slope. The others followed. When they reached the ridge, where the females and youngsters were watching, the males charged down again with equal vigor.
The rain fell harder. Jagged forks and brilliant flashes of lightning lit the leaden sky, and the crashing of thunder seemed to shake the very mountains. I watched, enthralled, marveling at the magnificence of these splendid beings. With a display of strength such as this, primitive man himself might have challenged the elements. Twenty minutes after it began, everything was over, and the whole group moved over the opposite ridge. I continued sitting in the rain, staring in near-disbelief at the white scars on the tree trunks and the discarded branches on the ground -- all that remained to prove that the primeval rain dance had taken place at all.
http://www.science-spirit.org/article_deta...?article_id=229
by Dr. Jane Goodall
MAY/JUNE 2001--One day in 1960, in the early days of my long-term study of chimpanzees, I saw something amazing. I was observing a group -- seven adult males and a few females and young -- on the opposite slope of a steep ravine. Suddenly, a rainstorm, which had been threatening for sometime, broke. The chimps had just finished feeding and were walking up to the open ridge. As they paused, a bolt of lightning struck, followed by a heart-stopping clap of thunder.
As if this was a signal, one of the big males stood upright and began moving rhythmically from foot to foot, eyeing the low branch of a tree. Then he charged down the slope toward the trees he had just left. There, swinging around the trunk of a small tree to break his headlong rush, he leaped into the low branches and sat motionless.
Two other males charged after him. Both broke off huge branches as they ran, dragging them and hurling them ahead. A fourth male charged, leaped into a tree, tore off a large branch, jumped with it to the ground, and ran with it down the slope. The others followed. When they reached the ridge, where the females and youngsters were watching, the males charged down again with equal vigor.
The rain fell harder. Jagged forks and brilliant flashes of lightning lit the leaden sky, and the crashing of thunder seemed to shake the very mountains. I watched, enthralled, marveling at the magnificence of these splendid beings. With a display of strength such as this, primitive man himself might have challenged the elements. Twenty minutes after it began, everything was over, and the whole group moved over the opposite ridge. I continued sitting in the rain, staring in near-disbelief at the white scars on the tree trunks and the discarded branches on the ground -- all that remained to prove that the primeval rain dance had taken place at all.
http://www.science-spirit.org/article_deta...?article_id=229
If all this indicates animals have religion who knows but I like to think it does.
I read this once:
It is not true that birth as a man is necessarily the highest, and that one must attain realisation only from being a man. Even an animal can attain Self-realization.
--Ramana Maharshi
Apparently it is exceedingly rare though that an animal does reach enlightenment. As for organized religion I doubt animals have it for the very reason that in general they dont question their self-awareness.
It is not true that birth as a man is necessarily the highest, and that one must attain realisation only from being a man. Even an animal can attain Self-realization.
--Ramana Maharshi
Apparently it is exceedingly rare though that an animal does reach enlightenment. As for organized religion I doubt animals have it for the very reason that in general they dont question their self-awareness.
I think , if one wants to think in terms of animals having religion, that they're animists. Recognizing a higher power in all things, including themselves. And as such is why they live in the moment. Moment to moment, with no regrets, no guilt, no remorse. They live through the experience, or they die. No worship, no conversions, no prejudice or bigotry compells them to see their diverse kingdom divided into notions, ideals or mythos. They are pure living essence and energy, having an experience for as long as it lasts. And I think if there is such a thing as blessing, we are so, for having them here to make mundane reality more beautiful and to show us, through their example, how easy it is to find joy. Watch kittens play, and if one believes in such things, they may see the face of god/dess.
Religion, Prayers, Souls, Spirituality and Animals
Religion, Prayers, Souls, Spirituality and Animals
Of course animals believe in God. Why would only humans have that trait? They all see a God similiar to their own species. Cats, for example, visualize God as a huge lion-like creature. For dogs, God looks like a large wolf. What hubris, to imagine that we are "more special"!
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ May 31 2007, 12:48 PM) [snapback]1702278[/snapback]
Of course animals believe in God. Why would only humans have that trait? They all see a God similiar to their own species. Cats, for example, visualize God as a huge lion-like creature. For dogs, God looks like a large wolf. What hubris, to imagine that we are "more special"!
I'm not sure i believe that but the first post after the topic is exactly what think they have no need to have a God and they focus on survival but it is possible they have some sort of religion but i wouldn't use that word because religion is organized if anything they have faith in something or believe in something
QUOTE(Adcox @ May 31 2007, 09:16 AM) [snapback]1702315[/snapback]
I'm not sure i believe that but the first post after the topic is exactly what think they have no need to have a God and they focus on survival but it is possible they have some sort of religion but i wouldn't use that word because religion is organized if anything they have faith in something or believe in something
cats call god "ra-rrr". if you listen, you can catch them praying.
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ May 31 2007, 12:35 PM) [snapback]1702903[/snapback]
cats call god "ra-rrr". if you listen, you can catch them praying.
ok... your starting to sound like loge, gideon.
I wonder if speaking his name will make him appear?
I don't think animals are capable of abstract thinking .and they would need to be to grasp the principle of god
fullywired
fullywired
QUOTE(hyperactive @ May 31 2007, 03:46 PM) [snapback]1702931[/snapback]
ok... your starting to sound like loge, gideon.
I wonder if speaking his name will make him appear?
I wonder if speaking his name will make him appear?
no, that's "the devil". I'm not sure it cats have satan or not.
QUOTE(fullywired @ May 31 2007, 03:54 PM) [snapback]1702948[/snapback]
I don't think animals are capable of abstract thinking .and they would need to be to grasp the principle of god
fullywired
fullywired
you just don't speak "cat".
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ May 31 2007, 08:55 PM) [snapback]1702950[/snapback]
you just don't speak "cat".
I hate cats!!!!
fullywired
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ May 31 2007, 12:35 PM) [snapback]1702903[/snapback]
cats call god "ra-rrr". if you listen, you can catch them praying.
There is a canine religion also, I am sure you all have heard of Dogma.
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ May 31 2007, 12:54 PM) [snapback]1702947[/snapback]
no, that's "the devil". I'm not sure it cats have satan or not.
so by your hypothesis, the greater cats call to their god with "ra-rrr".
by extension, the lessor cats just vibrate to the harmonics of the universe with "prrrrr".
hmmmm.....
Ah yes, the Dogma religion. Headed by a wise K9, with his decipuppies, speaking about kibble salvation and an after life free of cats, and on call belly scratches, while warning of the sin of fleas and ticks. Very popular.
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ May 31 2007, 09:18 PM) [snapback]1702990[/snapback]
Ah yes, the Dogma religion. Headed by a wise K9, with his decipuppies, speaking about kibble salvation and an after life free of cats, and on call belly scratches, while warning of the sin of fleas and ticks. Very popular.
Don't forget the lampposts and hydrants every 10 feet...
Doggie hell is an endless, featureless flat plain...
QUOTE(Darkwind @ May 31 2007, 06:34 AM) [snapback]1702210[/snapback]
I agree with SC it is something we don't know, and may never know. I do think animals have souls and thus have an after life. In my religion there is a God of the forest who protects animals, He is commonly called the Green Man.
I did find an interesting ideas by Jane Goodall.
If all this indicates animals have religion who knows but I like to think it does.
I did find an interesting ideas by Jane Goodall.
If all this indicates animals have religion who knows but I like to think it does.
Very cool find. Primates are pretty amazing. I don't think it means they have a form of religion, but they do appear to have a sense of awe, wonder, the outside world, and maybe are contemplating their place in it. I would think that would be a precursor to religion.
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ May 31 2007, 07:03 AM) [snapback]1702226[/snapback]
I think , if one wants to think in terms of animals having religion, that they're animists. Recognizing a higher power in all things, including themselves. And as such is why they live in the moment. Moment to moment, with no regrets, no guilt, no remorse. They live through the experience, or they die. No worship, no conversions, no prejudice or bigotry compells them to see their diverse kingdom divided into notions, ideals or mythos. They are pure living essence and energy, having an experience for as long as it lasts. And I think if there is such a thing as blessing, we are so, for having them here to make mundane reality more beautiful and to show us, through their example, how easy it is to find joy. Watch kittens play, and if one believes in such things, they may see the face of god/dess.
Religion, Prayers, Souls, Spirituality and Animals
Religion, Prayers, Souls, Spirituality and Animals
I think that's all rather idealistic. Unfortunately, even primates feel the sting of mortality, and mourner the loss of family, sometimes so badly they can cause there own demise. It's heartbreaking.
This mourning also may be a precursor to religion. With a little abstract thinking, it may be a small step to comforting ones self with the notion that a dead relative is "in a better place" as a reward for being so loved by those he/she left. Imagine the greatest most loving leader of a band of primates dying and leaving behind a young primate as leader. Might not that young primate emulate the departed leader, and pass this wisdom down, eventually deifying the original leader as something "more" than just another one of the "common" primates? I suppose the same could be said for a powerful but malignant leader as well.
I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I don't think it's too far from what may have been the roots of religion.
QUOTE(eqgumby @ May 31 2007, 09:43 PM) [snapback]1703039[/snapback]
Unfortunately, even primates feel the sting of mortality, and mourner the loss of family, sometimes so badly they can cause there own demise. It's heartbreaking.
This is also true of rats. Our eldest is just beginning to come out of a major depression brought on by the death of her sister. She's been in mourning since January and she'll most likely never be the same again - she even cries in her sleep. One of our old girls passed away just after Christmas and her twin sister went into a state of shock and passed away the same evening. She couldn't cope with the loss.
QUOTE(Shadow_Hill @ Jun 1 2007, 08:53 AM) [snapback]1703053[/snapback]
This is also true of rats. Our eldest is just beginning to come out of a major depression brought on by the death of her sister. She's been in mourning since January and she'll most likely never be the same again - she even cries in her sleep. One of our old girls passed away just after Christmas and her twin sister went into a state of shock and passed away the same evening. She couldn't cope with the loss.
Awww, poor little broken hearts.
And crying in her sleep?! She sheds tears, or is it a mournful sound she's making that makes you think that? Because that's truly a sad little picture. Rats are some of the most amazing care givers, in a communal family atmosphere. I use to visit a pet store , when a friend was considering a exotic bird purchase. While she shopped, I watched the rat collections in the back. Feeder rats, sadly enough.
When they had their pups, (hope that's the word for baby ratling.) , the mother would be attended by every other rat in the pen. And when a customer would come to purchase one, for a snake dinner, the others would cluster around mom and babies, so the hand reaching in wouldn't come near them. I remember thinking of that line in the Star Trek movie, where Spock dies. The needs of the many outweigh the need of the one. I think humanity could learn a lot from watching the social chemistry in rats and all the animal kingdom. Dumb animals, as a term, is an insult to those that use it to describe a single one. I dare say I couldn't build a house from scratch with what I know now. But watch a bird build a nest, and it's truly humbling how little we know, left to our own nature, without the education as to how to survive. While wasps can weave a paper nest that reminds me of what a 10 story condo complex would look like, as it's suspended from the boughs of a tree. I found one of those once. Long abandoned, I cut it open and looked inside. Then I realized how lucky I was to afford to buy a house, someone already put together.
I hope your rats feel better after such tragic losses.
oh come on now we all know cats have no need for gods since they are gods already. Just ask a cat.
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ May 31 2007, 10:29 PM) [snapback]1703101[/snapback]
Awww, poor little broken hearts. And crying in her sleep?! She sheds tears, or is it a mournful sound she's making that makes you think that? Because that's truly a sad little picture.
And crying in her sleep?! She sheds tears, or is it a mournful sound she's making that makes you think that? Because that's truly a sad little picture.She doesn't shed tears. She began making mournful sounds the moment she realised her sister had passed away... horrible little sounds, as she looked up to us for some explanation as to why her young sister had gone. Rats are incredibly quiet, so the sound of her making any noise was unusual to begin with (they don't eep all the time like they do in the movies). Then I was taken ill and she didn't see me at all for a week and started to worry, and her health suffered dramatically. We believe she would have died if I hadn't come out of hospital when I did. She lost a lot of weight and her breathing was very erratic. The first thing she did when she saw me was check I was breathing.
When our other little girl passed on we anticipated that her twin probably wouldn't be able to go on without her - they were inseparable. She cried all day and then slipped away.
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ May 31 2007, 10:29 PM) [snapback]1703101[/snapback]
Rats are some of the most amazing care givers, in a communal family atmosphere.
They are indeed. I've only been living with them for a few years, and I have a lot to learn, and each day I am more amazed at their capacity for caring, their selfless devotion, and their genuine desire to do what's best for everyone in their group (including their humans).
If it turns out that we get to be reincarnated, I would be honoured to return as a rat.
Ok i believe animals have souls of coarse the mourn fr eachother like siad cry be happy mad, have tons of different emotions and moods so it is very possible they have religion but as i said religion is to hard of a word as if lets say a dog had a religion for example more dogs would have to believe in the same thing because religion is basically a organized faith on something. so i believe they believe in some sort of faith or believe in something but not religion. Bu that also depends on the animals like pack, colonies, etc. so 'm not ruling out the possibility but for certain i would think they would not have the same religion as humans do
Well, I've no doubt that animals look around them and are in awe. That's what made me a Deist, so I don't see why that simple feeling of wonder, when they sit beneath that waterfall, couldn't ultimately translate into a sense of there being something other than themselves.
Rats worship at the Temple of the Mighty Pea by the way. So if they have gods they are green and round. "I am the one true tasty vegetable, thou shalt have no other tasty vegetables before me" (Pea Commandment no.1, from the Bible of Rats)... I've had that in my profile for a while now.
Rats worship at the Temple of the Mighty Pea by the way. So if they have gods they are green and round.
"I am the one true tasty vegetable, thou shalt have no other tasty vegetables before me" (Pea Commandment no.1, from the Bible of Rats)... I've had that in my profile for a while now.
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ May 31 2007, 12:48 PM) [snapback]1702278[/snapback]
Of course animals believe in God. Why would only humans have that trait? They all see a God similiar to their own species. Cats, for example, visualize God as a huge lion-like creature. For dogs, God looks like a large wolf. What hubris, to imagine that we are "more special"!
Obviously too much SpongeBob in your life!
QUOTE(hyperactive @ May 31 2007, 12:46 PM) [snapback]1702931[/snapback]
ok... your starting to sound like loge, gideon.
I wonder if speaking his name will make him appear?
I wonder if speaking his name will make him appear?
..did i miss something ???? LOL
QUOTE(rev r @ May 31 2007, 09:41 PM) [snapback]1703117[/snapback]
oh come on now we all know cats have no need for gods since they are gods already. Just ask a cat.
QUOTE(Shadow_Hill @ May 31 2007, 04:24 PM) [snapback]1703277[/snapback]
Well, I've no doubt that animals look around them and are in awe. That's what made me a Deist, so I don't see why that simple feeling of wonder, when they sit beneath that waterfall, couldn't ultimately translate into a sense of there being something other than themselves.
Rats worship at the Temple of the Mighty Pea by the way. So if they have gods they are green and round. "I am the one true tasty vegetable, thou shalt have no other tasty vegetables before me" (Pea Commandment no.1, from the Bible of Rats)... I've had that in my profile for a while now.
Rats worship at the Temple of the Mighty Pea by the way. So if they have gods they are green and round.
"I am the one true tasty vegetable, thou shalt have no other tasty vegetables before me" (Pea Commandment no.1, from the Bible of Rats)... I've had that in my profile for a while now.Rats however, are good at spreading diseases that can infect humans, as well as destroy crops. This is why so many people have a dislike for them. I once lived in a locale where rats were on the banned animal list. The species was prohibited within the juistiction because of the threat to agriculture. I always found it rather strange that in that same juristiction it was legal to use some pretty nasty pesticides (for mammilian control) which would then leech into the water table and pose a health risk to humans amung other animals.
I would think the disease factor would apply to wild rats, as opposed to those in Shadows keeping, which here at least, the veterinarians will treat as companion animals and afford them shots and check ups, as one would for their kitten or puppy. Making "domestic" rats, as it were, not at issue in that regard.
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Jun 1 2007, 01:09 PM) [snapback]1703952[/snapback]
I would think the disease factor would apply to wild rats, as opposed to those in Shadows keeping, which here at least, the veterinarians will treat as companion animals and afford them shots and check ups, as one would for their kitten or puppy. Making "domestic" rats, as it were, not at issue in that regard.
Fancy rats (that's what they're called) are not wild. They do not even go outside, for fear that they will pick up something from a passing human or animal which will be harmful for them. They are not carrying disease. If they are prone to anything it is respiratory infection (which cannot be passed to humans) because they have weak chests - unfortunately two of our girls have been taken from us by this. They are incredibly clean - they spend a third of their lives cleaning. They don't attack people - unless running up your leg to give you a kiss counts.
The only thing they spread is love.
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Jun 1 2007, 07:09 AM) [snapback]1703952[/snapback]
I would think the disease factor would apply to wild rats, as opposed to those in Shadows keeping, which here at least, the veterinarians will treat as companion animals and afford them shots and check ups, as one would for their kitten or puppy. Making "domestic" rats, as it were, not at issue in that regard.
I believe domestic rats can become "feral" like domesticated pigs. Those monster giant hogs you hear about are usually escaped domestic pink piggies gone feral after just a few years of "freedom".
I didn't realize rats had as social a life as Shadow implies. I do know people that keep them as pets, but not as...companion-like...as Shadow. That's pretty cool though.
The original poster's query has also recently come up at Ajna,
http://www.ajna.com/spirituality/viewtopic.php?t=1646
Click through for personal testimony of animal (chipmunk) spirituality, corroborative copypasta from an excellent Christian blog, and front-row seats at an ongoing flame war!
(Love the rats, btw)
http://www.ajna.com/spirituality/viewtopic.php?t=1646
Click through for personal testimony of animal (chipmunk) spirituality, corroborative copypasta from an excellent Christian blog, and front-row seats at an ongoing flame war!
(Love the rats, btw)
QUOTE(eqgumby @ Jun 1 2007, 02:28 PM) [snapback]1704030[/snapback]
I believe domestic rats can become "feral" like domesticated pigs. Those monster giant hogs you hear about are usually escaped domestic pink piggies gone feral after just a few years of "freedom".
I didn't realize rats had as social a life as Shadow implies. I do know people that keep them as pets, but not as...companion-like...as Shadow. That's pretty cool though.
I didn't realize rats had as social a life as Shadow implies. I do know people that keep them as pets, but not as...companion-like...as Shadow. That's pretty cool though.
Fancy rats and wild rats are two different creatures. Fancy rats have about as much in common with their wild counterpart as dogs do with wolves. Fancy rats have been specifically bred to be the rats that they are now. Releasing a tame rat into the wild would be much the same as releasing a human into it. They'd make the best of a bad situation, but they would continue to be the rats that they were before they were released. I should add that if anyone reading this is considering releasing a tame rat into the wild... DON'T! It's cruel and they most likely wouldn't survive. It would be like releasing a poodle into the wild... one who's been pampered his whole life.
QUOTE(Shadow_Hill @ Jun 1 2007, 07:04 AM) [snapback]1704068[/snapback]
Fancy rats and wild rats are two different creatures. Fancy rats have about as much in common with their wild counterpart as dogs do with wolves. Fancy rats have been specifically bred to be the rats that they are now. Releasing a tame rat into the wild would be much the same as releasing a human into it. They'd make the best of a bad situation, but they would continue to be the rats that they were before they were released. I should add that if anyone reading this is considering releasing a tame rat into the wild... DON'T! It's cruel and they most likely wouldn't survive. It would be like releasing a poodle into the wild... one who's been pampered his whole life.
Interesting. This is the first time I have heard that. I would tend to agree more with eggy on this unless the animal has been so altered by breeding that it is lacking something necessary for survival (for example imagine releasing a sphynx into a colder or desert environment).
(note - i was not implying your rats carry disease. I was just thinking of the averge "gut reaction" you see people have to rats, and rodents in general)
It took me to find the thread: The Chimp Messiah
Perhaps they can....I have posted this in the past
It is well known that children’s activities are full of pretending and imagination, but it is less appreciated that animals can also show similar activities. This is the first book to focus on comparing and contrasting children’s and animals’ pretenses and imaginative activities.
cambridge.org
A hungry chimpanzee walking through his native rain forest comes upon a large Panda oleosa nut lying on the ground under one of the widely scattered Panda trees. He knows that these nuts are much too hard to open with his hands or teeth and that although he can use pieces of wood or relatively soft rocks to batter open the more abundant Coula edulis nuts, these tough Panda nuts can only be cracked by pounding them with a very hard piece of rock. Very few stones are available in the rain forest, but he walks 80 meters straight to another tree where several days ago he had cracked open a Panda nut with a large chunk of granite. He carries this rock back to the nut he has just found, places it in a crotch between two buttress roots, and cracks it open with a few well-aimed blows. (The loud noises of chimpanzees cracking nuts with rocks had led early European explorers to suspect that some unknown native tribe was forging metal tools in the depths of the rain forest.)
In a city park in Japan, a hungry green-backed heron picks up a twig, breaks it into small pieces, and carries one of these to the edge of a pond, where she drops it into the water. At first it drifts away, but she picks it up and brings it back. She watches the floating twig intently until small minnows swim up to it, and she then seizes one by a rapid thrusting grab with her long, sharp bill. Another green-backed heron from the same colony carries bits of material to a branch extending out over the pond and tosses the bait into the water below. When minnows approach this bait, he flies down and seizes one on the wing.
Must we reject, or repress, any suggestion that the chimpanzees or the herons think consciously about the tasty food they manage to obtain by these coordinated actions? Many animals adapt their behavior to the challenges they face either under natural conditions or in laboratory experiments. This has persuaded many scientists that some sort of cognition must be required to orchestrate such versatile behavior. For example, in other parts of Africa chimpanzees select suitable branches from which they break off twigs to produce a slender probe, which they carry some distance to poke it into a termite nest and eat the termites clinging to it as it is withdrawn. Apes have also learned to use artificial communication systems to ask for objects and activities they want and to answer simple questions about pictures of familiar things. Vervet monkeys employ different alarm calls to inform their companions about particular types of predator.
Tool use.....alarm system.....
press.uchicago.edu
Animals can reason out tool usage read the above link.
Also:
Experiments have been made on fishes, reptiles, birds and various mammals, notably dogs, cats, mice and monkeys, to see how they learned to do certain simple things in order [p. 283] to get food. All these animals manifest fundamentally the same sort of intellectual life. Their learning is after the same general type. What that type is can be seen best from a concrete instance. A monkey was kept in a large cage. Into the cage was put a box, the door of which was held closed by a wire fastened to a nail which was inserted in a hole in the top of the box. If the nail was pulled up out of the hole, the door could be pulled open. In this box was apiece of banana. The monkey, attracted by the new object, came down from the top of the cage and fussed over the box. He pulled at the wire, at the door, and at the bars in the front of the box. He pushed the box about and tipped it up and down. He played with the nail and finally pulled it out. When he happened to pull the door again, of course it opened. He reached in and got the food inside. It had taken him 36 minutes to get in. Another piece of food being put in and the door closed, the occurrences of the first trial were repeated, but there was less of the profitless pulling and tip-ping. He got in this time in 2 minutes and 20 seconds. With repeated trials the animal finally came to drop entirely the profitless acts and to take the nail out and open the door as soon as the box was put in his cage. He had, we should say, learned to get in.
...................................
Here we have the simplest and at the same time the most widespread sort of intellect or learning in the world. There is no reasoning, no process of inference or comparison; there is no thinking about things, no putting two and two together; there are no ideas -- the animal does not think of the box or of the food or of the act he is to perform. He simply comes after the learning to feel like doing a certain thing under certain circumstances which before the learning he did not feel like doing. Human beings are accustomed to think of intellect as the power of having and controlling ideas and of ability to learn as synonymous with ability to have ideas. But learning by having ideas is really one of the rare and isolated events in nature. There may be a few scattered ideas possessed by the higher animals, but the common form of intelligence with them, their habitual method of learning, is not by the acquisition of ideas, but by the selection of impulses.
Indeed this same type of learning is found in man. When we learn to drive a golf ball or play tennis or billiards, when we learn to tell the price of tea by tasting it or to strike a certain note exactly with the voice, we do not learn in the main by virtue of any ideas that are explained to us, by any inferences that we reason out. We learn by the gradual selection of the appropriate act or judgment, by its association with the circumstances or situation requiring it, in just the way that the animals do.
psychclassics.yorku.ca
That is the only thing that separates man from animal.....abstract thought.....but then how can we be sure of that?
You can't teach a monkey an abstract concept such as world peace, but you can teach it -- with much patience and effort -- to apply a general rule to different situations.
The researchers trained monkeys to identify whether hundreds of different pictures were the same or different. By recording signals from brain cells in the prefrontal cortex of monkeys as they perform cognitive tasks, scientists explore which circuits hold information "in mind," a skill necessary for information processing and thinking.
The monkeys were sometimes required to release a joystick if a picture was the same as the one shown before it and sometimes if the pictures were different. The monkeys could apply the rule to pictures they had never seen before, showing that they were really dealing with abstractions, Wallis said.
web.mit.edu
Two characteristics of an environment are necessary to support the evolution of tool behaviors in animals. First of all, the use of tools must be advantageous to the animal. The examples which follow illustrate the advantages of tool use for the Egyptian vultures, chimpanzees, hooded monkeys, woodpecker finches, and green herons. Secondly, animal tool use is constrained by the availability of objects in the environment which make feasible tools. Without access to stones, poles, pieces of wood, and cactus spines, these animals would not have been able to acquire the uses of tools which they have.
Source
More Info
More animal tools
The finding of a parrot with an almost unparalleled power to communicate with people has brought scientists up short.
The bird, a captive African grey called N'kisi, has a vocabulary of 950 words, and shows signs of a sense of humour.
He invents his own words and phrases if he is confronted with novel ideas with which his existing repertoire cannot cope - just as a human child would do.
N'kisi's remarkable abilities, which are said to include telepathy, feature in the latest BBC Wildlife Magazine.
N'kisi is believed to be one of the most advanced users of human language in the animal world.
About 100 words are needed for half of all reading in English, so if N'kisi could read he would be able to cope with a wide range of material.
Polished wordsmith
He uses words in context, with past, present and future tenses, and is often inventive.
One N'kisi-ism was "flied" for "flew", and another "pretty smell medicine" to describe the aromatherapy oils used by his owner, an artist based in New York.
When he first met Dr Jane Goodall, the renowned chimpanzee expert, after seeing her in a picture with apes, N'kisi said: "Got a chimp?"
He appears to fancy himself as a humourist. When another parrot hung upside down from its perch, he commented: "You got to put this bird on the camera."
Dr Goodall says N'kisi's verbal fireworks are an "outstanding example of interspecies communication".
In an experiment, the bird and his owner were put in separate rooms and filmed as the artist opened random envelopes containing picture cards.
Analysis showed the parrot had used appropriate keywords three times more often than would be likely by chance.
Captives' frustrations
This was despite the researchers discounting responses like "What ya doing on the phone?" when N'kisi saw a card of a man with a telephone, and "Can I give you a hug?" with one of a couple embracing.
Professor Donald Broom, of the University of Cambridge's School of Veterinary Medicine, said: "The more we look at the cognitive abilities of animals, the more advanced they appear, and the biggest leap of all has been with parrots."
Alison Hales, of the World Parrot Trust, told BBC News Online: "N'kisi's amazing vocabulary and sense of humour should make everyone who has a pet parrot consider whether they are meeting its needs.
"They may not be able to ask directly, but parrots are long-lived, and a bit of research now could mean an improved quality of life for years."
SOURCE
The heck with it....there was a thread done about this very subject..........28 page long thread as a matter of fact: Are human beings any different then animals?
QUOTE(fullywired @ May 31 2007, 03:52 PM) [snapback]1702943[/snapback]
I don't think animals are capable of abstract thinking .and they would need to be to grasp the principle of god
Perhaps they can....I have posted this in the past
It is well known that children’s activities are full of pretending and imagination, but it is less appreciated that animals can also show similar activities. This is the first book to focus on comparing and contrasting children’s and animals’ pretenses and imaginative activities.
cambridge.org
A hungry chimpanzee walking through his native rain forest comes upon a large Panda oleosa nut lying on the ground under one of the widely scattered Panda trees. He knows that these nuts are much too hard to open with his hands or teeth and that although he can use pieces of wood or relatively soft rocks to batter open the more abundant Coula edulis nuts, these tough Panda nuts can only be cracked by pounding them with a very hard piece of rock. Very few stones are available in the rain forest, but he walks 80 meters straight to another tree where several days ago he had cracked open a Panda nut with a large chunk of granite. He carries this rock back to the nut he has just found, places it in a crotch between two buttress roots, and cracks it open with a few well-aimed blows. (The loud noises of chimpanzees cracking nuts with rocks had led early European explorers to suspect that some unknown native tribe was forging metal tools in the depths of the rain forest.)
In a city park in Japan, a hungry green-backed heron picks up a twig, breaks it into small pieces, and carries one of these to the edge of a pond, where she drops it into the water. At first it drifts away, but she picks it up and brings it back. She watches the floating twig intently until small minnows swim up to it, and she then seizes one by a rapid thrusting grab with her long, sharp bill. Another green-backed heron from the same colony carries bits of material to a branch extending out over the pond and tosses the bait into the water below. When minnows approach this bait, he flies down and seizes one on the wing.
Must we reject, or repress, any suggestion that the chimpanzees or the herons think consciously about the tasty food they manage to obtain by these coordinated actions? Many animals adapt their behavior to the challenges they face either under natural conditions or in laboratory experiments. This has persuaded many scientists that some sort of cognition must be required to orchestrate such versatile behavior. For example, in other parts of Africa chimpanzees select suitable branches from which they break off twigs to produce a slender probe, which they carry some distance to poke it into a termite nest and eat the termites clinging to it as it is withdrawn. Apes have also learned to use artificial communication systems to ask for objects and activities they want and to answer simple questions about pictures of familiar things. Vervet monkeys employ different alarm calls to inform their companions about particular types of predator.
Tool use.....alarm system.....
press.uchicago.edu
Animals can reason out tool usage read the above link.
Also:
Experiments have been made on fishes, reptiles, birds and various mammals, notably dogs, cats, mice and monkeys, to see how they learned to do certain simple things in order [p. 283] to get food. All these animals manifest fundamentally the same sort of intellectual life. Their learning is after the same general type. What that type is can be seen best from a concrete instance. A monkey was kept in a large cage. Into the cage was put a box, the door of which was held closed by a wire fastened to a nail which was inserted in a hole in the top of the box. If the nail was pulled up out of the hole, the door could be pulled open. In this box was apiece of banana. The monkey, attracted by the new object, came down from the top of the cage and fussed over the box. He pulled at the wire, at the door, and at the bars in the front of the box. He pushed the box about and tipped it up and down. He played with the nail and finally pulled it out. When he happened to pull the door again, of course it opened. He reached in and got the food inside. It had taken him 36 minutes to get in. Another piece of food being put in and the door closed, the occurrences of the first trial were repeated, but there was less of the profitless pulling and tip-ping. He got in this time in 2 minutes and 20 seconds. With repeated trials the animal finally came to drop entirely the profitless acts and to take the nail out and open the door as soon as the box was put in his cage. He had, we should say, learned to get in.
...................................
Here we have the simplest and at the same time the most widespread sort of intellect or learning in the world. There is no reasoning, no process of inference or comparison; there is no thinking about things, no putting two and two together; there are no ideas -- the animal does not think of the box or of the food or of the act he is to perform. He simply comes after the learning to feel like doing a certain thing under certain circumstances which before the learning he did not feel like doing. Human beings are accustomed to think of intellect as the power of having and controlling ideas and of ability to learn as synonymous with ability to have ideas. But learning by having ideas is really one of the rare and isolated events in nature. There may be a few scattered ideas possessed by the higher animals, but the common form of intelligence with them, their habitual method of learning, is not by the acquisition of ideas, but by the selection of impulses.
Indeed this same type of learning is found in man. When we learn to drive a golf ball or play tennis or billiards, when we learn to tell the price of tea by tasting it or to strike a certain note exactly with the voice, we do not learn in the main by virtue of any ideas that are explained to us, by any inferences that we reason out. We learn by the gradual selection of the appropriate act or judgment, by its association with the circumstances or situation requiring it, in just the way that the animals do.
psychclassics.yorku.ca
That is the only thing that separates man from animal.....abstract thought.....but then how can we be sure of that?
You can't teach a monkey an abstract concept such as world peace, but you can teach it -- with much patience and effort -- to apply a general rule to different situations.
The researchers trained monkeys to identify whether hundreds of different pictures were the same or different. By recording signals from brain cells in the prefrontal cortex of monkeys as they perform cognitive tasks, scientists explore which circuits hold information "in mind," a skill necessary for information processing and thinking.
The monkeys were sometimes required to release a joystick if a picture was the same as the one shown before it and sometimes if the pictures were different. The monkeys could apply the rule to pictures they had never seen before, showing that they were really dealing with abstractions, Wallis said.
web.mit.edu
Two characteristics of an environment are necessary to support the evolution of tool behaviors in animals. First of all, the use of tools must be advantageous to the animal. The examples which follow illustrate the advantages of tool use for the Egyptian vultures, chimpanzees, hooded monkeys, woodpecker finches, and green herons. Secondly, animal tool use is constrained by the availability of objects in the environment which make feasible tools. Without access to stones, poles, pieces of wood, and cactus spines, these animals would not have been able to acquire the uses of tools which they have.
Source
More Info
More animal tools
The finding of a parrot with an almost unparalleled power to communicate with people has brought scientists up short.
The bird, a captive African grey called N'kisi, has a vocabulary of 950 words, and shows signs of a sense of humour.
He invents his own words and phrases if he is confronted with novel ideas with which his existing repertoire cannot cope - just as a human child would do.
N'kisi's remarkable abilities, which are said to include telepathy, feature in the latest BBC Wildlife Magazine.
N'kisi is believed to be one of the most advanced users of human language in the animal world.
About 100 words are needed for half of all reading in English, so if N'kisi could read he would be able to cope with a wide range of material.
Polished wordsmith
He uses words in context, with past, present and future tenses, and is often inventive.
One N'kisi-ism was "flied" for "flew", and another "pretty smell medicine" to describe the aromatherapy oils used by his owner, an artist based in New York.
When he first met Dr Jane Goodall, the renowned chimpanzee expert, after seeing her in a picture with apes, N'kisi said: "Got a chimp?"
He appears to fancy himself as a humourist. When another parrot hung upside down from its perch, he commented: "You got to put this bird on the camera."
Dr Goodall says N'kisi's verbal fireworks are an "outstanding example of interspecies communication".
In an experiment, the bird and his owner were put in separate rooms and filmed as the artist opened random envelopes containing picture cards.
Analysis showed the parrot had used appropriate keywords three times more often than would be likely by chance.
Captives' frustrations
This was despite the researchers discounting responses like "What ya doing on the phone?" when N'kisi saw a card of a man with a telephone, and "Can I give you a hug?" with one of a couple embracing.
Professor Donald Broom, of the University of Cambridge's School of Veterinary Medicine, said: "The more we look at the cognitive abilities of animals, the more advanced they appear, and the biggest leap of all has been with parrots."
Alison Hales, of the World Parrot Trust, told BBC News Online: "N'kisi's amazing vocabulary and sense of humour should make everyone who has a pet parrot consider whether they are meeting its needs.
"They may not be able to ask directly, but parrots are long-lived, and a bit of research now could mean an improved quality of life for years."
SOURCE
The heck with it....there was a thread done about this very subject..........28 page long thread as a matter of fact: Are human beings any different then animals?
I have no proof I admit but I just can't wear the the idea ,I find it ludicrous
fullywired
fullywired
QUOTE(hyperactive @ Jun 1 2007, 03:48 PM) [snapback]1704108[/snapback]
Interesting. This is the first time I have heard that. I would tend to agree more with eggy on this unless the animal has been so altered by breeding that it is lacking something necessary for survival (for example imagine releasing a sphynx into a colder or desert environment).
(note - i was not implying your rats carry disease. I was just thinking of the averge "gut reaction" you see people have to rats, and rodents in general)
(note - i was not implying your rats carry disease. I was just thinking of the averge "gut reaction" you see people have to rats, and rodents in general)
There was a study carried out (I have the footage somewhere, I'll have to find it) where tame rats were released into an enclosure to see how they fended for one year "in the wild". They were most likely a bit befuddled at suddenly not having their dinner delivered to them in a bowl. A year is a long time in a rat's life because they only live 2-3 years, so it was a long enough period to show whether or not the rats would change very much. The maker of the film seemed to feel that a rat's ability to recognise food, or to find shelter, proved there was a link between the tame rat and the wild rats they were bred from 200 years ago... but if I were released into some enclosure and left to fend for myself I'd know to find somewhere to stay warm and dry, so I can't see what that proves. I'm sure the maker was hoping for more outstanding results, but in reality the rats just carried on behaving as they had done before, but mourned the loss of their comfortable environment. I also found it interesting that they were released into an enclosure where there were no other animals at all... so the environment was artificial. They placed a bunch of tame rats in a very large garden basically. There were fruit bushes, so food would not be an issue, bales of hay to provide nesting materials, and containers upturned to catch water for the rats to drink. Basically, all they proved was that tame rats were able to live outdoors if they were provided with the materials they would have been provided with in the domestic environment, were not exposed to disease, and didn't have to interact with other animals. The film maker obviously wasn't prepared to make the environment any more "wild" than that for fear that it would disprove his point that domesticated rats can cope in a wild environment.
in essesnce, this is saying what is considered "common logic" - if the animals released are released into an environment suited to their survival they will survive, otherwise not.
Life wants to live. This is why we see examples of domesticated animals flourishing as feral animals. However, if the animals are put into an environment unfriendly to them, they will perish.
Life wants to live. This is why we see examples of domesticated animals flourishing as feral animals. However, if the animals are put into an environment unfriendly to them, they will perish.
When is the last time you saw your goat praying?
Ok, maybe not a goat.... 
LOL well I'll be damned......I guess I really am an animal!
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Jun 1 2007, 12:00 AM) [snapback]1703318[/snapback]
..did i miss something ???? LOL
The 100 million dollar Maltese Falcon sailboat! The worlds largest and fastest sailing vessel. Thank you for posting that. 
I thought the Maltese Falcon was the stuff that dreams are made of. Man I love that movie.
Bogart! 
One of my favorites, of all his movies. "The stuff that dreams are made of."
One of my favorites, of all his movies. "The stuff that dreams are made of."
QUOTE(Adcox @ May 31 2007, 04:56 AM) [snapback]1701899[/snapback]
This is most likely a really stupid topic but anyways do you think it is possible anmals have a religion.
This is not directed at you..but it is really silly to even say - animals have a sense of God and religion...totally absurd!!!
it's impossible for anyone to know if animals are aware of God let alone understand it all
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