But it isnt a flame but energy. It always exists in an energy state because that is its deeper reality. Who cares whether it exists in the flame state forever or not because that is not its true state anyway.


What is the flame? It is energy and energy is eternal. Why the fear? Where is the nothing? Take this quote by the mystic Jalal-uddin Rumi:

We and our existences are non existences. Thou art Absolute Existence showing Thyself as perishable things.

We are really the eternal energy constantly changing.

Sweet

The cold man cares.



Energy is eternal. The fear (not mine) is in the loss of awareness...'self' as revr says.

Fear is the great mind killer~Napoleon Hill

I prefer the illusion of the reality of being human. It just suits me. Yet, I realize that the life force is just that...illusion...as the flame...it is...and then it isn't. It always is the flame. It is always not the flame.

Not your fear aye?



I think the loss of personality self-awareness is immature because it isnt who we really are.

The better thing though is the fact that the eternity part never changes.

Ah, but it is EXACTLY who we are. Awareness of self is all that self is. Granted that energy is eternal. Energy exists. Everything that is exists as a state of energy. Nothing exists as a state of energy. As you mentioned earlier, empty space exists as energy....but it is the Self Awareness...the Awareness of Self...that is so interesting. In this energy configuration...we are. In another energy configuration we still are...but the awareness is not.

You must learn to discriminate better.....for lack of personality awareness may very well give way to abstract awareness or God consciousness or eternity consciousness.

Wouldnt that be better than ego awareness?

Either way we always are and so there is nothing to fear.

...then again it very well may not...

There isn't nothing to fear.

Either way we have both come to the conclusion that we are. If there is something like deep sleep (which is what most people here consider to be nothing) then it will be blissful because there will be no ego awareness to worry about there not being any ego awareness. Death is then a win win situation.



Ya good point

Sweeter

Not as sweet as you

This was taking your philosophy to its extreme, BNW. The second philosopher was making the point that, in the first philosopher's mind he did not exist, outside of the consciousness of either the first philosopher, or perhaps of the universal consciousness.

Thus it had to be, in the first philosopers belief system, the first philosopher kicking himself. The second philosopher spoke the truth in terms of the first philosopher. Of course the second philosopher did not really believe this; he was just making a point to his colleague, that if he did not exist, then who kicked the first philosopher. I am suprised you did not get this,BNW although I expected you to argue with some part of the premise invoved.

Yeah but that doesnt mean that pain doesnt exist. Pain too only exists within the range of consciousness.



But I have never said external things dont exist. I have only ever claimed that they dont exist independently of consciousness.

Being alive is having awareness, when you are dead there is no awareness, i liken it to having an operation..the mask goes on your face you start to count
then blackness, you are aware of the blackness for awhile , but untill you wake up again...there is nothingness...a void.

If you remain asleep(dead) then you have no awareness of the void.

So we die every night in deep sleep?



Ahhh but a void is something and also no awareness is a form of awareness for it is the awareness of no awareness. Death only exists in so far as it is contrasted to life and vice versa. There isnt two different states but one relationship and so there isnt actually any distinction between the two. It is like having two different ends of the same rope, the ends give an illusion of twoness when in fact it is oneness because each end is connected to the other.

As I have said before, I think our basic belief systems are so different that we are discussing completely different concepts, even though using the same words. To me there is consciousness which exists as a part of organic life, and then there is objective reality which exists completely separate from consciousness.

Although we may all percieve objective reality differently, and the same reality may have different consequences on different consciousnesses, because we act on it differently;nonetheless independent reality would go on even if all consciousness ceased.

in my world view, independent reality preceeded/existed long before any form of consciousness. (with the possible exception of some form of "god" although even this entity and the forces it commands may have evolved from an objective reality which did not include any consciousness) This really comes down to faith/ belief.
Thus, to take my non existent son. While the concept of him exists within my consciousness he has no existence in the independent reality.

I, on the other hand, do exist independent of my consciousness, and even if all my consciousness was wiped away, I would still exist in the independent reality.

What is more, the whole of me has existed in a real temporal location, and always will have, while my son NEVER existed and never will.

I am not sure why you think it so hard to comprehend/visualise either eternityor nothingness. If you are correct about consciousness, then these exist internal to us/ or are a part of us, and thus are really quite accessible to our intellect. While i do not agree with you about the nature of consciousness, I do believe the mind of a human being is capable of almost anything, particularly within the bounds of that mind, and thus even in my philosophy, there is no reason why I cannot conceptualise/visualise both eternity/infinity and nothingness.

I must admit that both concepts/visualisations came to me while asleep, and as a pre-teenager but i remember them (as our brain does) as "real". To the brain's storage mechanisms/memory there is nothing to distinguish subconscious memories(dreams) from conscious ones (from our perception of the objective reality)
Now I can both access them, and process their meaning and significance, consciously

My argument is that this cant be proven either way. We cant prove that an objective reality exists without consciousness and we cant prove that it isnt there either. Either way it requires consciousness to know.

It is an act of faith either way.



In my view both objectivity and imagination are one and the same since they are both percieved by the same consciousness.



But you can never ever prove this because it is only through consciousness that you can make such claims.



If this is the case then he wouldnt have existed for you to state that he will never exist.



Because eternity is beyond all beginnings and ends and to start a visualization of eternity requires a beginning and then an end.

And to visualize nothingness defeats the purpose of doing so in the first place. The visualise nothingness would prove that nothingness isnt nothingness because it can be visualized.


Good luck trying to visualise that which does not exist or that which transcends concept.



My personal view is that you most probably visualized a great symbolic dream of infinity and that it left a grand impression on you.

I think this experience was one of the clinchers in my belief system with regard to consciousness. I had a triple by pass in 2004.At about 9 am I was rendered unconscious. This is a slow and gentle process these days and nothing as dramatic as counting back from 10.
I recovered consciousness late that afternoon, pleased but just a little suprised to be still alive. I could not speak because of all the tubes in my mouth,but as agreed i gave a high five to my wife signalling Number 5 is alive.

During the 10 hours i was unconscious my heart was cut loose from my body, 3 arteries were taken from my leg arm and chest and by -passed around the blockages in arteries very close to my heart. Then i was stapled and sewn back together. I have absolutely no recollection of that time, and neither did i dream. This is the closest experience one can have to death. In fact for much of that time i was only kept alive by the machines connected to me.

I now know, what is the worst death can be. It is a ceasation of existence. It is just like pre-conception. Of course it remains scary to my consciousness, because I do not really like the idea of ceasing to exist and no longer being able to either input or process data. But this is an understandable and logical fear.

I no longer have a fear of the unknown. It is like no longer needing to fear the dark, while still being wary of not bumping into things and injuring yourself if you try to walk around in the dark. One is a logical/rational fear, the other is not.

Of course, the best possible outcome would be a form of resurrection of either/both the consciousness, and a body, which allowed me to once more input and process data.

I am sorry, I cannot see why visualising either of these is any more difficult than visualising a human finger, if all are products/an innate part of the same consciousness we are part of. If we are able to construct and visualise even a single cell through the utilisation of consciousness, why should infinity or non existence be any more difficult/less possible? Particularly within your world view.

If consciousness encompasses all, including us, then we also encompass infinity and non existence, within us.

If I can visualise melding the molecules of my body through those of solid stone or brick to pass through earth and walls, or if I can visualise tending the sails of a light ship between the stars(while encompassed within a force field of course); or not only visualise, but feel, the wing muscles of a great green dragon as I ride it above the clouds of a planet which i have also totally constructed and visualised from my consciousness, then I can visualise that which does not exist, and again i can see no logical reason why a mind capable of that can not "see" eternity or "the Void"

"Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist." ---Epicurus

Why fear not existing? If you do not exist then you arnt ever gonna experience pain of suffering because there is no YOU left to experience it. Deep unconscious sleep is the same and yet we look forward to it.

And how can something cease to exist any way? How can something go from being something to nothing? It makes no logical sense...you cant become nothing because nothing doesnt exist to become for the very reason that it isnt anything.

Infinity transcends all concept and symbols therefore to visualise it is to only partially visualise it. It is like looking at a glass of water and saying you have seen an ocean.

Non-existence isnt there to visualize in the first place otherwise it wouldnt be non-existence. Only things that exist can be visualized......unless of course you are willing to admit that non-existence is a form of existence?????

This is an interesting argument, but again depends on your definition that anything you can visualise is real. My great green dragon while perfectly rendered in form and function within my consciousness, does not exist.

I can not remember my operation, therefore i cannot see the nothing ness which existed then, and yet it exists, stored in symbols within my memory. How these symbols were constructed I am not sure. A neuro surgeon could probably explain them to me, and yet i know that nothing ness exists We can visualise many things which have no physical existence, and there are some things which exist physically which we find it hard to visualise, only because our mind refuses to do so. This can be for cultural reasons or caused by personal trauma. Soometimes our minds are not able to see things as they are because they are culturally camouflaged, or beause we are not yet able to accept their existence.

[
I think I agree with this. I fear death only because i will no longer have all the sensations asssociated with life




Same answer. Having enjoyed the experience of consciousness and the utilisation of it I "fear' a ceasation of this ability. Even if it is someday restord to me i would rather not lose it. Also when i sleep , I am usually within a constructed lucid dream world of my own and have been since a very young child. That's the only reason i look forward to sleep, and When i lose my consciousness, i will lose that as well.

]

I really don't understand what you are saying here. In the end according to the law of entropy everything will cease to exist. Pardon me if this displays a fairly basic knowledge of the law of entropy, but while energy may not be created or destroyed, the "universe" is gradually "running down." It will possibly return to its state of existence prior to the big bang, and then the whole thing may start again. There is no guarantee or even a strong liklihood that consciousness, either personal or universal, will survive this. On a smaller scale every one of us goes from nothing to something to nothing again.

But it does in your imagination. That is existence. Also let me point out that the physical world is also in the imagination. All visuals whether it be of a chair you see or a goblin you are dreaming of are seen in the same visual cortex in the brain! The brain also is a thought or piece of imagination that is only known because it is translated to consciousness.

Since no idea or sensation exists outside the mind, no physical thing exists outside the mind. ---George Berkely

That which we see and that which we think are one and the same. It is only through belief system that we believe one is more real than the other.

The reality you view or are conscious of is all in the brain and the brain is in the mind. As B.Russell and L.Wittgeinstein say:

For instance, whether a lemon truly exists or not and how it came to exist cannot be questioned or investigated. A lemon consists merely of a taste sensed by the tongue, an odor sensed by the nose, a color sensed by the nose, a colour and shape sensed by the eye; and only these features of it can be subject to examination and assessment. Science can never know the physical world.

The physical world we view is the one our brain gives us and so how can we be sure it has given us a correct copy?? It is an act of faith to believe so.



Well written by I believe that the 'mind' has its limitations. For an example, what does consciousness look in and by itself?

And there i think is the nub of our inability to agree. Imagination to me is not existence, except that it is a small part of our personal existence. Have to leave now or i may well cease to exist when my wife gets hold of me, but really enjoying the debate.

But deep sleep isnt with any dreams and that is why it is called deep sleep.

]


Non-existence is no existence therefore it doesnt exist for it(the universe) to become or "run down" to. As Parmenides the ancient greek philosopher says:

How could what is perish? How could it have come to be? For if it came into being, it is not; nor is it if ever it is going to be. Thus coming into being is extinguished, and destruction unknown.



The universe is energy is it not? And you have just said that energy may not be created or destroyed.



This is just a theory and possibility like many others that require faith to believe in.



How can something become nothing when nothing isnt anything to become?

But all that we see and sense is imagined! Because all the physical world as well as fantasy is 'thought' in the brain and the brain also is a thought in consciousness. If imagination wasnt existence then it wouldn't be a function of our personal experience.



Twas fun

What about it?

If Atman is the same as Brahman is the same as Nirvana is the same as consciousness is the same as Tao, then none exist except as words.


I haven't found that Nagarjuna's interpretation of the Way can be summed in a single phrase. If it could be he probably would have done it himself rather than being as prolific a writer as he is said to have been.

Some light reading.
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/nagarjuna.pdf
The Wisdom of Nagarjuna by Dr. Peter Della Santina

Ner ner ner ner ner ner!@!



Grrrrrrrrr every time I try and open the site my computer screen starts playing up and the link doesnt open.

To have faith we rely on practice
To have wisdom we must know the truth
Faith is the prerequisite of wisdom

--- Nagarjuna

Another cool quote of his.

when people report of being revived and having near death experience, all mention a light or feeling of joy, this has been
attributed to the release of endorfens and short-circuting of the optic nerves at the time of death.
simple unconsciousness as experienced during an operation is different as the brain is still functioning and receiving outside stimulis.

This doesnt mean there is nothing after death.




But that is only to other people who are conscious because they can consciously examine an unconscious person. Simple unconsciousness to those who are unconscious are not aware of anything including themselves or the world. Hence we come to the argument in which it is postulated that existence of the self and world only exists insofar that consciousness is conscious of it.

Good question!

First you have to clarify the definition of death. So go ahead and look it up, but death is the state of being dead. So whats the definition of dead. Answer = No longer living. Now we have to define life. Life is the result of growth. To grow means to endure change. So the easy answer to the question is that the question is illogical due to the fact that the basic elements do not die they only grow but are capable of breaking down to a minimal state. that means the molecules that once made the human body will strive to almost start over and combine with other molecules to ultimately create new complex life forms.

On a different level you could ask what happens to the essence of the molecules that grew to be the human? Is any ressemblence of the previous percieved conciousness carried over after the breakdown of the human form. I would have to guess, yes. But I would have to expand my awareness of life.

Our current reality exists as we are able to endure and detect change. Simply put "patterns" A pattern (or essence) is altered by any adjacent pattern. So logically once a pattern is altered, it is forever altered. The speed of which the comprehindable pattern is altered, one could say is the rate at which god exists in time.

You really, honestly and without even the slightest twinkle in your eye, believe this to be"true" , "possible" or "the most likely of all possibilities"?

Thats interesting but all that implies is our current personal level of awareness, not what is actually happening in our current reality.

i agree its all in the eye of the beholder....we make our own perceive our own realities from the reality of life...some times our own perceptions prohibit or cape our imaginations and creativity...thus only being able to perceive a limited logic and give us limited views.... languages is our capper...as its wots defines realism to the reality where are part of and acting out..as i have stated before arguing about nothing will give u an unsatisfactory answer..as nothing is something...people on here are getting confused with it being that the very before the existence's of the universe was non existent there was nothing ...well maybe it was, as it wasnt created then..BUT this would be said and understood like this.. before the universe there was a void of somthing (a place if u will), then created from the composition of that place came forth the universe into existence..firstly the universe was non-exsistance then like an un born child..the rite conditions were set to allow it to come into existence..but alas not from nothing but from something!

LMFAO....who said this comment..wot world do they believe they live in then....i believe this person is confused to wot reality is...people like in everything can be to self exerted into one thing that without proper reasoning can implode and lose all recollections and realizations even to wot life and reality really is and how to define it...knowledge can be the key to things but also can be a destroyer if u cannot cope with comprehending or understanding it....this sounds like to me that this person is on a destructive path of reality and can lead them selfs to schizophrenia....its one of the symptoms and degenerative diseases to people who cant handle reality.....if this was a fantasy world i would float over to him and give him a good lecturing...LOL

But let us not forget that they exist only together. One cannot be defined without the other.



But is there change? Maybe change is an illuson of the senses. I've been thinking and this is what I thought of:

The universe wasnt created in the past by the Big Bang but is created in every single new moment. Each moment or now the universe changes therefore with each change it isnt the same universe as it was the 'previous moment'. So each moment is a new genesis. We have since we were born experienced countless different universes. However the moment is always NOW so nothing (the moment) changes and if nothing changes then there is no motion.




Well it amazes me that science still cannot prove how the brain creates consciousness. They cant actually prove that consciousness comes from the brain. So it is an act of faith to believe that it comes from the brain as much as an act of faith to believe that it is a soul which continues after death.



Time and change are only mere concepts which we think are real because of the impression they leave on us. So I think. Good post though......I like your blunt honesty.

Science has proved it..........

What you fail to understand is that the reality you experience is merely electrical signals percieved in the brain. You dont see a material world....you see an image copy the brain translates from the original.....yet how can we know for sure what the original is if all we have to go by is the interpretation our brain gives us?????

Then you must take into account that the images we see and sensations of smell, touch, feel and taste in the supposedly "physical" world are exerienced in the same places of the brain as when you dream.

From this point knowledge we can then assume that the dream world and waking world are both as real as each other. Also another thing that must be pointed out.....the brain is a copy of itself! But how can we be sure if we only have a brain copy to go by? How do we know that a real brain is giving us an accurate brain image? It could be something very different because we only have the copy electrical signals of a copy world to go by. We could be plugged into a machine that gives out signals which the brain interprets as this world.....it is an open question because we wil never know unless of course we can transcend the illusory (maybe not illusory) world the brain gives us.

So what we think and imagine exists just as much and has just as much reality as what we see. If we see a chair and think an image of a chair both are seen in the same visual cortex.

And science has not yet discovered what it is within the brain (if in the brain) that causes awareness to give us the feeling of "I am an individual" or "I am aware".
My view is that consciousness is the fundamental of reality and all other phenomenon a creation of it instead of the other way around.

If you arnt confused about what reality is then you obviously havnt philosophized much over it.



How can you destroy something? How can something (i.e. energy) that cannot be created or destroyed be destroyed? Isnt all that we witness in the world made of indestructible energy? Sure it may change form but it doesnt change from being energy. The essence is eternal reguardless what happens to the form....and if the form isnt the essence then why worry about it?



I have often thought myself insane but what is is often thought of as insane is because of how sane it is in comparison to other sane structures of reality. Who is to benchmark what is sane or insane?

As Albert Einstein (Allah bless him) says:

Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter by the gods.


And also Werner Heisenberg says this about judging reality how we percieve it:

No perceptual judgment can ever be made with complete certainty.

Crazy the way some of these scientists thought isnt it?



Many great ideas which are now everyday norms were onced laughed at as being absurd..............

I love this quote. Another way to put it:

Death always happens to the other guy!

On one hand there is only one reality. Mine. That being said, therefore, there are billions of realities...because there are billions of humans....but the insect has it's own reality...therefore, there are trillions of realities...but the rock is in it's own reality...so therefore there are billions of trillions of realities...but, the different star systems have their own realities...

...therefore, each atom has it's own reality....and atoms are composed of energy...therefore, energy has it's own reality, and since everything is composed of energy...there is only one reality...

...therefore on one hand, there is only one reality, but on the other hand there is only one reality...and the reality is that that one reality cannot for a certainty be known to be real.

Whoa! !@! This is a really cool post. What can I say....I loved it, especially this part:

...therefore, each atom has it's own reality....and atoms are composed of energy...therefore, energy has it's own reality, and since everything is composed of energy...there is only one reality...

It sounds both scientific and mystical!@! It is a very simple truth that many minds find hard to grasp. Well done man

In the words of the Eternal Elvis:

Thank ya...thank ya very much..

Very interesting information, brave. I too am interesting in this type of thing. It's great food for thought. If our dreams are experienced in the same part of our brains as reality is, how do we know "reality" is more real than our dreams?

I also start to think... If the world as we see it is just how our brain interprates it, what does it really look like? But at the same time, how can it have a TRUE form? We'd need a specific type of organ, or tool to see the world as it really is, but then again... what if that's THAT organs/tool's interpratation of the world? If the brain can't see the universe for what it really is, then what can? What tool/organ//senses/whatever would we need to actually "see" the universe for what it is?

Pls pls dont try to push your mind to think or imagine it more then it can ever imagine. DO u know why we only use 9% of our brain because if it is use more then that let say 30% we will come to a state where they say you are crazy or phycotic or unbeliveble or the worst SHUTDOWN by other that fear the thing that they unable to understand.

Brave...your best posts ever, imho. Posts 288 & 289. Your getting better at articulating...or I'm actually starting to understand you. ...and should I be concerned.

Kudos

That we are using 9% of our brain is just a myth

Is it a myth? Pls dont try to be shown as a fool. Fact is there for u to read in the net. Take your time and read it up u lazy buggar .

Yes, I think that's right. Even "empty space" isn't "nothing," and we don't have to resort to quantum mechanics to prove it.

Your comment about a reality beyond the evidence of our senses has me wondering if Platonism isn't as naive as it looks from the standpoint of empiricism.

It is this kind of knowledge that has my head spinning in circles too.

Famous neurosuregen Karl Pribrim says this:

Since the Greeks, philosophers have been thinking about "the ghost in the machine", "the small man within the small man" etc. Where is "I", the person who uses his brain? Who is it that realizes the act of knowing? As Saint Francis of Assisi said: "What we search for is the one that sees."


My personal opinion is that it is the soul but for me to explain that the soul is more than the soul would require a new thread. I am just happy to say for now that consciousness/soul for me exists and continues after death. And I have a strong gut feeling that science will never discover how the brain creates consciousness precisely for the reason that consciousness transcends the brain.

Here is a cool quote from the Orange Catholic Bible:

"Think you of the fact a deaf person cannot hear. Then, what deafness may we not all possess? What senses do we lack that we cannot and cannot hear another world all around us?"

But if we had other senses, wouldnt they just give us copy images of reality too?

Yeah right! Hahahahahahaha the knowledge of the mystics and perennial philosophers states tha one should have faith and not fear. Here is a cool quote:

To your mind, I am mad.
To my mind, you are all sane.
So I pray to increase my madness
And to increase your sanity.
My 'madness' is from the power of Love;
Your sanity is from the strength of unawareness.

---A Sufi

The more we think the more we doubt and the more we doubt the more we awaken.