yes, all we see is a holograph, a seperation from singularity.
being infinite means being more than one, as well as being one at the same time point in existance.
suggesting all life comes from a zero point would suggest that infinitey exist within it.


reincarnation.
to become the energy in the food that feeds a fetus, or to be that energy within that fetus, or a new star/atom developing.
*chills down my spine* possibly ascension is becoming an atom, wow.


because if infinitey is singular, as well as multiple, then seperate is being part of the source.
becoming a human or a plant or a planet is a form of using infinite, undestroyed energy that comes from the main source.

Yeahhh...

HA HAAA, love it!! The illusions of our senses


Surely suggesting that life come from anywhere divides infinity somewhat?


Is seperatenous not a matter of choice and identity? We can percieve and communicate ourselves and others as if they were seperate, but they may infact choose to identify with the "main source" which would mean they did not see themself and others as seperate.

Yes, I think that's right. Furthermore, thought and manifestation arise from the same source or spin about the same axis. They are connected and are in a sense one thing. But that source or axis is obscure to us. If we can ever come to understand it, then what we think will be real, no matter how arbitrary, just as you say. Which in a sense is already the case. It just doesn't seem that way to us. So is this what Yahweh was afraid of when he said that humans might eat the fruit of the Tree of Life and become as gods?

You can't have somthing without nothing otherwise what is somthing describing? it describes the lack of nothing. Nothing is a concept and a contradiction, why can't contradictions exist? Besides nothing is only nothing before you realize it then it becomes something. If the concept of nothing can't exist then niether can the concept of everything, because nothing would fall into somthing required to obtain everything.

Somthing and nothing are simbiont concepts in the 4th dimension as well as contradictory concepts in the 3rd dimension.

if it exist within the Universe, it is part of infinitey, seperated & part of.


we don't see ourselves as one, or coming from a main source, because our senses discriminate upon our surroundings.
that infers that acknowledging another person's existance is a discrimination upon "unity."
one can choose to acknowledge all as being one, but within our Universe exist the seperate "material" dimension, 3rd dimension, which is a combination of 0 - 2nd dimension.
only within an infinite Universe can there be a material & void existance all seperate from a main source, which i refer to as Zero Point.

Zero Point on the spiral of creation is the start of the manifestation of creation.
it is the source, nonexistant, yet existant, & spirals into manifestation.
the further it spirals the greater the manifestation of creation seperate from the source.
this could imply the infinitely large, where all planets are atoms & atoms are planets.

emotions are evidence for a form of discrimination upon our surroundings.
if one fears something, it is a discrimination, as well if not fearing it.
observing an object as blue, or what have you, is a discrimination upon what is void & singular.
we must discriminate upon our environment to see it as "seperate" from infinitey, for we are born into a material dimension, which in turn is part of a void & infinite Universe.

Is it not self evident? Because, otherwise, we would have no reality (experience) at all.

In that case consciousness might exist, theoretically, but it would not be aware that it existed.

If this was true, would not you and i be in total agreeance on the truth, whatever that really was? the fact that we cannot change each other's realities indicates that they emanate from separate sources.

Brave, once again, we will have to disagree on two radically different philosophical/scientific viewpoints. I will leave this debate for a while, but feel the need to say that i don't think my views are a result of conventionality or "being unable to think outside the box".

As an avid reader, who was reading books and newspapers from the age of 3, and eventually amassed about 10,000 books, over a third of which were science fiction/fantasy; and who read most of the science fiction/ fantasy from the 1920's through the 1950's, and much of the better stuff since then, (The earlier stuff was my fathers) I had heard many such ideas explained in detail before i was a teenager.

They fascinated me, and i considered and studied them logically. It is simply that over time, experience and logic dictates that your perception of consciousness is extremely unlikely. I do not dismiss it entirely, particularly as a philosophical viewpoint, but it is not possible to interact long term with the real world, if you actually believe it is not real at all. For example i stopped trying to walk through brick walls in the real world, very early in my experimental period, although I found the technique worked very effectively with a little practice in the "dream world"

In fact you just reminded me of something very interesting. While studying childrens literature at Uni In the late 1960's i once gained a distinction for an essay called, " Books, Dreams, and the Real World".
In this essay I explained how, as a child/teenager I lived in three realities which were indistiguishable from each other .
The world i entered when reading.
The world of dreams, which to me as a lucid dreamer was sequentialand populated with creatures as real as those in the real world.
And the "real world," which as to me, as many a child and teenger often finds, was almost less real because it was outside my control, and to some extent my perception/knowledge base.

Perhaps it was because i was self aware of the three worlds, or perhaps I was already noticing how the world of dreams becomes less defined as our ego adjusts with experience and time to "objective reality", but by this time (about the age of 20) I had already passed beyond the interesting idea that there was no objective reality, only consciousness.

ah, consciousness.
the mind recognizing itself as a "living" creation, seperate from the source.
*tingles*

you, sir Walker, have inspired me today. xo

My reality tells me, i'm a living concious thing.
(Anita's avatar inspired me, why is she beautiful?)

It is a paradox. Infinity cannot be spoken about without contradicting oneself. If there is infinity then that means there is infinity possibility as well as the infinite possibility that there is no infinity hahahahahaha.

Infinty isnt one or separate ultimately because it transcends all concept.


From one level of comprehension I agree with reincarnation however if all is infinity and infinity is one then what is separate to reincarnate in the first place?



But what is the "we" or "I" that becomes anything? If you say infinity then what need can infinity ever have of becoming anything? If infinity is everything then everything is infinity and so there is no purpose because purpose builds barriers and limitations. Infinity in order to infinity would surely transcend and be free of all purpose and limitation.



The singular multiplicity of this universe draws my deepest attention. It is a thing of ultimate beauty.

The Stolen Journals
God Emperor of Dune

How can anything be separate from a singular infinity?



But infinity isnt a plant or human. Plants and humans are plants and humans when looked from a point of view of separation. Separation is illusion and therefore so are forms and names like human and plant.

What if the reality was consciousness itself? Then consciousness would only have to be itself and that would be reality enough.



How so?

Personally I think that Yahweh is our true identity. I dont believe there is millions of Yahwehs but that we are all the same Yahweh.....and from one level of comprehension that Yahweh(us) expresses itself through an infinite diverse multiplicity of manifestations.

I believe that "finding the Kingdom of God within" is realizing our true Yahweh identity.

Why does truth need us to agree on it? What if the truth is that truth manifests itself in a variety of ways?


What do you mean by this?

What we cannot think we cannot think therefore we cannot say what we cannot think. Also if nothing is a contradiction then it is something. Also is something is the lack of nothing then the nothing must be something in order to be lacked.



Also if everything exists then nothing must exist because nothing is part of everything. But then if nothing exists then it isnt nothing is it? The paradox.......



Well nothing has to be something in order to be a symbiont concept. And nothing has to be something in order to be a contradiction. Hence nothing is something.

Only your logic and experience. Your logic and experience differs from Ramana Maharishi's or Buddha's. Their logic dictates that one must transcend logic in order go beyond illogic because as long as there is logic you have illogic. Hence opposites must be either transcended or seen as one (same thing).


You only think that the waking world is the real world and hence it seems more real to you. The dream world isnt a dream world it too is a real world because it feels real when you experience it. Both worlds are made of thought and it is only a logic that is also made of thought that thinks one is imaginary/thought and the other one is "real".

Disciple: Is there no difference between waking and dream?

Ramana Maharshi: Waking is long and dream is short; other than this there is no difference. Just as waking happenings seem real while awake, so do those in a dream while dreaming. In a dream the mind takes on another body. In both waking and dream states, thoughts, names, and forms occur simultaneously.

Science today can back this up with the fact that both worlds waking and dream and viewed in the same visual cortex.



Yet for the mystics and perennial philosophers this idea (well not actually an idea to them because they have experienced it beyond the idea occasionally or are constantly conscious of it) never loses its zest but that is because they have the experience to back it. The idea to many of us can become boring because it is only an idea(until directly experienced) but what the idea symbolizes is beyond boring and exciting and beyond ideas!

Infinite consciousness isnt words but a perspective; and one of absolute truth and bliss.

However Mr walker I respect your views and do not wish to persuade you of my faith. You have (and hopefully still will) been an excellent debater.

We all have our own minds about life after death. We all comfort ourselves in believing whatever we wish. I personally do not follow a religion as such but in my own mind I like to believe that our spirits go somewhere or similar. Like there is another level for the spirits that obviously we don't know about. It comforts me to know that in some ways I can still see my loved ones even after Im gone and even comforts me now to know that past loved ones can look down on us. I dont believe there is much after life but I dont believe there is a heaven and I dont believe that once your dead, your gone forever and you cease to exist. Many strange things happen, like people find comfort in believing a passed loved ones spirit is in another person or a pet. I dont think theres an exact answer as we dont know until we live it ourself, its whatever we choose to believe to comfort ourself.

HA HAAA i LOVE the way you word your answers, your a cooool chick!

You describe the bindings of dualism as though they can never be broken.

I just had a mad thought, i duno whether it was the first hand experience of it that ammused me so, but i'm still chuckling....errr..consciousness, from the ego perspective of power and control....Human senses, dualism and dimentional concepts... more powerful than infinity?

LOVE IT!

NICE ONE
nn23

To the question "Where does the soul go, when the body dies?" Jacob Boehme answered: "There is no necessity for it to go anywhere."



Much of what you have said here true. Like all major changes we will only know until it happens.

As a former Christian, I would have been offended by such a comment as this, and would have considered it blasphemy. It took great suffering (dying to "self") and a miraculous & mystically life changing experience to know that what you have written here Brave, is indeed what we have come here to realize...or remember. It is very humbling.

Amazing how various christian denominations have twisted and complicated such a simple religious truth.

Shhh! You're not supposed to just come out and SAY it.

I suppose they'll hang me now.

The thought crossed my mind yesterday that I would to post that line. Timing is everything






No, that only happens when pronounless sentences start appearing.

infinity is a contradiction within itself, yes, but that is the true nature of infinity.
it is everything & nothing.


ah, but the concept of the Universe is that it's truely singular & void.
it doesn't transcend concept, unless the person questioning hasn't researched other philosophical views.
that would make it transcend the concept of one's current knowledge of the formless, singular Universe.

"Reality is all-encompassing: the absolute nature is one. Although we may feel separate from the original uncreated reality - whether we call it 'God,' 'peak experience,' or 'enlightened mind' - through awareness we can contact this essential part of ourselves."
- Tarthang Tulku


the seperation occurs further in the spiral of creation.
it spins from zero point [a.k.a. point zero] , which is infinitly singular & void, thus it must spiral into infinitely seperated, which could be planets are atoms & atoms are planets, containing seperate life, ect.
but as the Universe contains this all, it is truely singular & void.


oh, i have to disagree.
if infinity is everything, then a plant, a human, a planet, a grain of sand, ect. are all the same, without discriminations upon our false "reality."
that implys everything can be the same, but seperate & individual.
this is the nature of being infinite & in unison with everything.
if it is within the Universe, which is infinite, then it is part of it.
all undestroyed energy comes from the "source", the spiral of creation, point zero, or "god," however one wishes to label it.
that undestroyed energy is used in an infinite cycle or spiral, for purposes of creation.
that suggests that death is our leaving the material world, where all is discriminated as seperate & individual, & our energy returns to the void singularity of an infinite Universe.

In that case if infinity is everything then it is also finite. Nothing we say about infinity can be true because words are dual in nature and infinity is beyond the limitations/concepts of duality. But Infinity is also within duality and therefore everything we say about it is true also. But if infinity is duality also then that means that duality isnt limited because it is infinite. But for practical reasons we must say that duality is limited for so as long as we identify with thoughts/dualism we will never experience that which transcends it as well as immanent in it.

True infinity would be beyond both infinite and finite.

"Thought cannot do what it will, free itself from the activities from the opposites; thought has created the ugly and the beautiful, the good and the bad. So it cannot free itself from its own activities. All that it can do is to be still, not choose. Choise is conflict."

---Jiddu Krishnamurti

And this:

Paired opposites define your longings and those longings imprison you. ---The Zensunni Whip




Singular and void are words that symbolise concepts or thoughts. Thought is limited because it is dual by nature. Dualism is imprisonment of the self because the self sees itself as separate from the cosmos.

There is no separate self to suffer. The one who understand this is free. This is the path of clarity. ---Dhammapada

There is a difference bewteen understanding this intellectual (as I do) and knowing it directly (as people like Jesus or Buddha).

Words/concepts can only give us dark vicarious glimpses of what knowing it directly is like.

For one who has no inner, angry thoughts,
Who has gone past being a someone , a this or that,
That one is free from fear and is blissful.
Even the gods cannot win such serenity.

---Udana Sutta, Buddha citing a verse.




Infinity is always infinity whether we have researched other philosophical views or not.

If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are. --Zen proverb




As for this quote, I one hundred percent agree with it


But each part isnt a part at all but That which is singular and void.


Hindu cosmology is non-dualistic. Everything that is is Brahman. Brahman is the eternal Now, and in eternity there is no before or after, for everything is everywhere, always. To use the words of Pascal 'it is a circle the center of which is everywhere and the circumference nowhere.' (Sudhakar S.D, I am All, 1988)

Infinity is everything that exists and by everything I mean infinity's infinite manifestations and unmanifestations and that which transcends both. But all of these are the singular void or God ,hence there is no all for the void to be because there is only the void or oneness.



Infinity transcends all concept. If infinity is everything then it is already the fulfillment of all purpose. If this is so then how could it have any purpose? Why would it need a purpose? If infinity had a purpose that would imply that there is something which infinity is not because it would not be the fulfillment of that purpose or it would imply that infinity exists for something greater when there can be nothing greater than infinity. If this is true then this would mean that infinity is not infinity because infinity is all and what transcends all.

Knowledge,you see, has no uses without purpose, but purpose is what builds enclosing walls.
His Voice
Leto Atreides II

How can you build inclosing walls around infinity?




If all is the singular void then how is there different states of being? How can there even be movement if all is singular void? For if all is the void then there is nothing separate to move about in it.
Each moment or now the universe changes therefore with each change it isnt the same universe as it was the 'previous moment'. So each moment is a new genesis. We have since we were born experienced countless different universes. However the moment is always NOW so nothing (the moment) changes and if nothing changes then there is no motion.

To the question "Where does the soul go, when the body dies?" Jacod Boehme answered: "There is no necessity for it to go anywhere."

Or this:

Troubled or still, water is always water. What difference can embodiment or disembodiment make to the Liberated? Whether calm or in tempest, the sameness of the Ocean suffers no change.

--- Yogavasistha

Liberation is our actual true nature because we are all the oneness. How can there be parts in oneness when there is only oneness? You and me are illusons....an illusion which paradoxically speaking doesnt exist.

"May all beings never leave the path of enlightenment, which is their own true nature and is empty of separate self-existence." ---Prajnaparamita

Therefore we are all Buddhas....

The word Tathagata (one of the names of the Budhha) signifies one who does not go anywhere and does not come from anywhere; and that therefore is he called Tathagata (Thus-gone), holy and fully enlightened.

---Diamond Sutra

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA But everything I have said here is a contradiction because I have tried to conceptualize that which is beyond all concept. Hence I am no more right than you are.

Why dost though prate God? Whatever thou sayest of Him is untrue. --Eckhart

I can only at the end of the day say that I have faith and do not know. Better off expressng myself here on unexplained mysteries than taking drugs.

This quote here sums up my situation:

I am ignorant of absolute truth. But I am humble before my ignorance,and therein lies my honour and my reward. ---Kahlil Gibran

Still this post gave me something to do.

duality isn't limited.
since it is an illusion of the seperated "source" it only appears limited to the creation that disciminates it as limited.


infinite is a term to explain the eternal Universe.
infinite is a an explanation of measurement too.
if it can be conceptualized through words, then it can be understood as being forever & ultimately possible to manifest as "creation" or a "reality".


i honestly believe that quote deals with the human desire & not duality within the Universe.

"Desire is the cause of Suffering."
- Buddha

"Birth is sorrow;
Life is sorrow;
Sorrowful are the age, disease, & death;
But resurrection is the greatest misery of all."
- Aleister Crowley


i disagree, thought isn't limited for it is part of the "source," a conscious cosmic entity.
within an infinitely large Universe there are infinitely different life forms in infinitely varied perceptions.
we may see our duality as limited, when it is actually part of a larger reality, so to say.


explain your point exactly?


okay.. :/


i agree, but those words can fullfill the ability to explain something intellectually.
words are only symbolic towards what we percieve as a "discrimination."
if a word explains something as "infinite" it percieves said "infinite" as unlimited in possibilities.


i agree, but how is that related to this subject?


aren't we just discussing the contradictions of singularity within a dual Universe?
i'm not trying to make you take on a new lifestyle or anything. wow.

i believe that quote explains how if one can see something as Infinite, then it is, but if you cannot percieve it as Infinite, then it will never be.
however, things that have been proven mathimatically can change that perception.
i propose that the Universe is infinite, because science can prove it.

& i thought i'd share this.
the Golden Ratio is a measurement with Sacred Geometry, of the form of an infinitly large & small spiral.
origin/consciousness spirals in both directions through infinity & are part of the source, making it singular.

golden ratio - Wikipedia
Sacred Geometry - Wikipedia


well, truely an Infinite Universe is singular & nondualistic.
duality is an illusion of singularity.


that is what the term infinity implys, it transcends limitations.


different states of being are an illusion.
if everything is singular & void, then duality is a perception.
might i restate singularity infers all is uniform & not seperate.
the spiral of creation is one spiral, starting from one undefined point, infinitely small point & spirals into infinite largeness.
within this one spiral can exist duality that is an illusion of being seperated from the singular.
planets are seperations of the singular.
atoms are seperations from the singular.
but if contained within this one spiral it makes it singular.
all seperation from the source is still part of the source.
it is not "foreign" to the spiral.
nor can anything be "foreign" to this one spiral of creation.

this spiral is reflected in the spiral of stars & our planets through a galaxy, that in turn spirals through the Universe.
the real question is, what does the Universe spiral through?
that is the transending concept.
if it is infinitly large & small, then the Universe spirals within itself into a higher & lower perception of reality, therefore creating duality.


i don't believe in the concept of the "soul," but i do agree that our energy/consciousness returns to the singular source.
it doesn't go anywhere.
it stays within the Universe, undestroyed, returned to the source.


i believe that infers once enlightened, you will have no discrimination upon the surroundings.
i have studied Buddhism actually & it teaches enlightenment frees the mind, which transcends limitations, from the discriminations upon our surroundings.
"Whether calm or in tempest, the sameness of the Ocean suffers no change."
thatmeans enlightenment removes all perceptions of indifference & limitation.
the "mind" does not percieve it as being able to effect the mind.
Buddhist enlightenment means seeing our material world as truely nonexistant, yet existant, thus creating duality.
once percieving duality in the Universe, weachieve enlightenment by not suffering along with it's existance.


& i say unto thee, this is the nature of a singular Universe.
all is an illusion, nonexistant, yet existant.


actually that means the seperate self, which is origin/consciousness, is empty & nonexistant, therefore enlightened.


agreed.

I believe the quote says exactly what it means.

The scientific rough estimate for the size of the universe is 47 billion light years. But that isn't infinite. The Universe can only be finite...infinity is an illusion...but then again, so is the finite.

Things are just as they are....however they are...they are...

I just love this thread.

Me too Joc...me too.

Duality isnt even there at all. There is no distinction between opposites at all because they are ultimately different ends of the same rope. Everything is one therefore the really is no duality and it is because we see things they as are that they appear as limited because we only see them according their dual manifestation and their true nature which is oneness.


My point is that you cant think infinity because it transcends whatever we think for the very reason that it is infinite.



Desire is not only the cause of but is suffering and we desire because of duality. We think ourselves separate from what we desire. True happiness is the absence of desiring or striving for it. Duality keeps us in the illusory state of separateness and therefore involves our suffering as well as the perception of the universe that makes us suffer. Hence to transcend duality and become one with the universe is the only ultimate happiness.




And as long as we see it as dual we will always suffer because we wont be consciously experiencing it as one. To be consciously experiencing oneness or infinity there is no sense of object or subject for they have merged into each other.

Thought is limited because it cannot encapsulate infinity. Whatever thought image you have in your mind is limited because whatver it is a finite image. Infinty transcends the finite. Hence infinity transcends all thoughts therefore thoughts are limited. Also all thoughts are viewed in the light of duality hence all thoughts are limited to the dual manifestation. If it wasnt limited t the dual manifestation then you'd see each thought for what it is and that is not as a thought at all but are pure timeless awareness.




If everything is one then how can there be anything separate? It is because we view ourselves as separate from our source instead of as the source that we suffer the dualism of this universe. To see yourself as being one with the source intellectually is very different than experiencing it directly at all times which many mystics and Gurus have achieved.

..The real God is not to be sought in idols and symbols, in temples or churches.
The truth of the matter is that the purified man is God himself, for he has become one with universal life. The purified man is the self-realised man. He has not to await answers from God, for he has no questions to ask. He himself is the answer to all questions; his life itself is a benediction. (Sudhakar S.D, 1988.p55)

To actually achieved total liberation requires intense patient efforts of mortification and self-naughting. But the reward is worth it apparently because you detach from the ego and see things for what they truly are:

If the doors of pereption were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. --- William Blake




A monk asked Wei-Kuan: "Where s Tao (infinite absolute)?"

Kuan: "Right before us."

Monk: "Why don't I see it?"

Kuan: "Because of your egoism you cannot see it."

Monk: "If I cannot see it because of my egoism, does your Reverence see it?"

Kuan: "As long as there is 'I' and 'thou', this complicates the situation and there is no seeing Tao."

Monk: "When there is neither 'I' nor 'Thou' is it seen?"

Kuan: "When there is neither 'I' nor 'Thou, who is here to see it?"


You are the Self, the infinite eing, the pure, unchanging consciousness; which pervades everything. Your nature is bliss and your glory is without stain. Because you identify yourself with the ego, you are ted to birth and death. Your bondage has no other cause.

---Shankara



Let me put it this way. It is analogous to knowing a description the sky as taught in a text book and seeing it with your own eyes.




And words/concepts can give an idea of infinity but infinity transcends all ideas, there true infinity is something that cannot be said because it goes beyond words and thought. The teachings of the mystics which is to learn how to experience infinity not merely to have a distorted intellectual concept of it (because it transcends the intellect) are to indicate something that exists beyond word and concept.

As the Godhead is nameless, and all naming is alien to Him, so also the soul is nameless; for it is here the sameas God. --- Eckhart

God being, as He is, inaccessible, do not rest in the consideration of objects perceptible to the senses and comprehended by the understanding. This is to be content with what is less than God; so doing, you will destroy the energy of the soul, which is necessary for walking with Him. ---St John of the Cross

Jejune and baren speculations may unfold the the plicatures of Truth's garment, but they cannot discover her lovely face. --- John Smith, the Platonist

The philosophers indeed are clever enough, but wanting in wisdom;
As to the othes, they are either ignorant or puerile!
They take an empty fisdt as containing something real and[b] the pointing finger as the object pointed at.
Because the finger is adhered to as though it were the moon, all their efforts are lost.

--- Yoka Daishi




Because the verse says that one must be free of thought, for to identify with them they impose limitation upon us and cloud our true nature which is the source of all suffering.



No we are discussing something much much deeper! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

In my opinion it means that the universe is always how it is regardless of how we see it or not.




As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far they are certain, they do not refer to reality. --Albert eistein



They are very nice, however in my view there are no spirals in infinity ,it just is.




Hence words and thoughts contradict everything put forth about the universe. It only makes unparadoxical sense when it is experienced in its pure form directly.



Infinity has no starting points because it is infinite and it has no end points. If infinte smallness and largeness are the same then they are infinite small or large points but just infinity which cannot be described with contradiction.




Therefore there is no separations. Even Bell's theorem in quantam physics has shown this.



It doesnt because there is nothing separate to spiral through it.


Infinity is everything and all times. Nothing is created because everything is infinite and therefore eternal.

There is neither creation nor destruction,
Neither destiny nor freewill;
Neither path nor achievement
This is the final truth.

---Ramana Maharshi



If the whole universe is the source then why does consciousness energy have to go anywhere? It is always at the source wherever it is.



Yes it does. It allows one to see that dualism is really a non-existent illusion.



Buddhist enlightenment means transcending all duality including the concept of buddhist enlightenment.

The relinqishing of all views leads to emptiness
But if emptiness is the view, then have achieved nothing.

---Nagarjuna




And I say unto thee that this means that thine own separate existence does not truly exist.



I thought you would

Why would it say anything else?

When you die, you are dead, dead, dead. Why worry?

Why would anyone think it says something other than what it says....

I guess because people prefer "other" to "is".

OK! I couldn't resist.

Again, your own words and those of the philosophers, only confirm my logical deductions based on the available evidence.

Particularly, that there is a real and significant difference between the world(s) of dreams and the one we inhabit while awake.

A dream world has no objective reality outside of the consciousness of the dreamer. Thus i can; manipulate matter to create objects, vary the molecular vibration of my being to pass through solid objects, warp time and space to create portals or links between the worlds i create, and move at will to different time periods, in all my created worlds. I can negate gravity at will, through either mental or physical processes, and thereby fly by; magic carpet, dragon, light ship, inner electrical force (which unfortunately precludes flying over bodies of water); or with enough discipline and training, fly around the world by will power alone.

With all the best will and training in the world, I can do very few of these things in the real/waking world. The reason for this is that I am constrained by the solid existence of matter in this world which is generally outside the ability of my consciousness to manipulate, BECAUSE IT EXISTS INDEPENDENT OF MY CONSCIOUSNESS.

Thus, despite my best efforts to persuade my little brother to fly from our shed roof, ( I never was stupid) he was unsucessful. The parachute I designed and built as a back up safety precaution did not work very well either, and after a few attempts we gave it away, and used the parachute as a brake on a bike coming down a very steep hill. The results of this experiment actually did result in a mate flying for several metres, but that is another story.

There are some exceptions, in that the power of the organic brain does seem to have the ability to interact with some aspects of the real world in the same way that muscle power does. Thus it may be able to travel through space, and observe/ interact with other independent consciousnesses. It certainly seems capable of communicating in different ways with other entities which may be defined in avariety of ways, including "god". I think the interaction occurs at some yet undiscovered level of molecular interaction, or possibly interacting particle/waves, but i am quite sure that it is a physical interaction of separate consciousnesses, with real existences in the objective world.

The evidence of most paranormal and supernatural experiences, collectively, strongly supports this conclusion.

Why is it that the dream world is less real because we cant manipulate it easier with our will and the waking world less real because it is harder (well only harder because we have been conditioned to believe so)? Also your argument doesnt support that the waking world exists independent of our consciousness, we cant prove it either way.

Also matter isnt solid. Itzhak Bentov explains in his book Stalking the Wild Pendulum:

" Let us now magnify a piece of bone...we see the atoms weaving back and forth like a field of ripe wheat blown by the wind. They move in unison and in beautiful rythm. Acoustical energy is flowing through the crystal.

"Next we focus on the atoms. At first they appear as little shadowy balls vibrating about fixed points in the molecule. As we magnify, we see less and less. The electron shell has somehow dissolved, and we are looking at a vacuum. As we further magnify we see something tiny moving about. We focus on what we suspect is the nucleus of the atom, located in this vast space within the atom. If we take the diameter of the nucleus of a hydrogen atom to be 1mm, then the diameter of the electron orbit will be about 10 meters, a ratio of 1 to 10,000, and the intervening space is vaccum.

"As we zero in and further magnify the vibrating nucleus, it seems to be dissolving. We are looking at some shadowy pulsation; some more magnification and the nucleus is almost gone. We are sensing the pulsation of some energy; it seems to be a rapidly pulsating field. But where did the bone go? We thought that we were looking at a solid piece of matter!

"Well, it seems that the real reality- the microreality, that which underlies all our solid, good, common-sense reality -- is made up , as we have just witnessed, of a vast empty space filled with oscillating fields! Many different kinds of fields, all interacting with each other. The toiniest disturbance in one field carries over into the others. It's an interlocked web of fields, each pulsating at their own rate but in harmony with the others, their pulsations spreading out farther and farther throughout the cosmos."

What the hell is solid about that?!?! Atoms are the most least solid thing in the world so how can they be the building blocks of a solid world???
Impressions can and have been decieving. We use the reson to discriminate. I agree we cant completely distrust one completely but quantum physics and reason shows that the physical reality isnt actually physical.

I certainly find it difficult to believe that there is a material world in which we currently find ourselves, and some other, quite different, immaterial world we enter after death. Apart from anything else, modern physics suggests very strongly that so-called gross matter - the clay from which we are made - is anything but that. It is almost positively immaterial."
(Barbour: 2000, p. 327) Physicist


Also if we use the a basket ball to represent the nucleus of a hydrogen atom, the electron circling it would be about twenty miles away and everything inbetween would be empty. How can you say that quantum physics hasnt shown the world to be immaterial or empty, it is one of the most basic teachings of quantum mechanics???

So there is no solid matter. That is in fact an illusion.





Again it comes down to faith. All you have said here doesnt prove that waking reality exists independent of consciousness. In fact how could it be the "waking world" if there was no consciousness to be awake?????

It only shows how we interact differently and that is all. Regardless how we interact with either the dream world or waking world both worlds we know we exist because of consciousness and only because of consciousness can we infer that such realities exist.

You say the organic brain is the fundamental for consciousness and I say consciousness is doesnt require an organic brain to exist. My arguement is that only through consciousness can you know that you have an organic brain or any other kind of reality and therefore state that consciousness itself is the fundamental f reality.



How so?

"Traditional science holds the belief that organic matter and life grew from the chmical ooze of the primeval ocean soley through random interactions of atoms and molecules. Similarly, it is argued that matter was organized into living cells, and cells into complex multicellular organisms with central nervous systems, soley by accident and 'natural selection'. And somehow, along with these explanations, the assumptions that consciousness is a by-product of material processes occuring in the brain has become one of the most important metaphysical tenets of the Western worldview.

"As modern science discovers the profound interactions between creative intelligence and all levels of reality, this simplistic image of the universe becomes increasingly untenable. The probability that human consciousness and our infinitely complex universe could have come into existence through random interactions of inert matter has aptly been compared to that of a tornado blowing through a junkyard and accidentily assembling a 747 jumbo jet."

-------Former Professor Stanislav Grof, author of the book "The Holotropic Mind"


It really comes down to faith. Science does not know how the brain creates consciousness. So to believe that consciousness is a by-product of the brain requires just as much faith as it does to believe it is a soul of some type.

Furthermore, we needn't go so far as to imagine such a thing as infinity. Even if the universe is finite, we may substitute the word totality and the statement is still true: "nothing we say about totality can be true." Every sentence we can utter implies a distinction between this and that, or a duality, as you say. If I use totality in a sentence, I imply that there is something apart from totality-- that I'm speaking of totality as opposed to something else. But there is no something else. But then again, isn't there? For example, difference is not-totality. I cannot speak intelligibly about a concept of totality that encompasses difference (or separateness, or discreteness, or fragmentation), because these things are opposites. This is just an artifact of language. The kind of "totality" to which I'm trying to refer somehow encompasses its supposed opposites. There is no opposite of it, because it is everything. There is no way to make a sensible statement about such a thing.

It goes to the heart of a simple fact about language: any sentence you can utter must presuppose exactly two things-- time and space. To speak directly about anything that transcends these concepts is impossible. A widespread failure to understand this fact leads to the situation we have today, where most religious persons are in fact practicing a form of idolatry, confusing words with reality, sign with referent, map with territory, the finger with what the finger is pointing at. They believe that words can encompass Absolute Truth. That is a big problem.

I'm almost afraid to respond in this thread, however, I do like what is said here in this quote.

NICE READS!!! Very throught-provoking.

WOW yeah She-ra, i agree, nice one for pointing it out, and fairplay to whoever posted it, cheers for the read

Why thank you sweet lady

I couldn't help but thinking about the dialog between a very stoned student and a very stoned professor in the movie Animal House where the the stoned student is understanding for the first time that: 'You mean the Earth could be just a speck of dust on my finger?!' Not implying anything...I was just reminded of that interchange.

In fact...as previously discussed...That throbbing, fading, ever diminishing nucleus is Energy....and understanding that Energy is far beyond my intelligence level I am afraid. I think I know that it is. I think I know that it is all that there is. In reality, I don't know Jack about Jill.

I applaud thee! Well written. I agree with this. But I would like to point out that not only words are limiting but concept/thought also is limiting for thought cannot encompass totality either. Here are some quotes I found that express the same problem as you have demonstrated:

The fish traps exists because of the fish; once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit; once you've gotten the rabbit, you an forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning; once you've gotten the meaning ,you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can have a word with him?

---Chuang Tzu (Chinese mystic)

Concepts can never be regarded as logical derivatives of sense impression. But didactic and heuristic objectives make such a notion inevitable. Moral: it is impossible to get anywhere without sinning against reason: in other words, one cannot build a house or a bridge without the use of a scaffolding which, of course is not part of the structure.

---Albert Einstein

The popular faith in words is a veritable disease of the mind ~ C.G Jung.

The act of saying that things exist that cannot be described in words shakes a universe where words are the supreme belief. --Paul Atreides

Hence why I believe that infinity can only ever be known via direct experience which is of a mystical quality. Then and only then can one truly know what it is. The true purpose of religion is a means to this experience and that is all.

Bad spelling hence the edit

I certainly agree. Anita ciggarette has posted some very intense thought provoking posts

Do you believe that there is ever a means to knowing Jack about Jill?

LMAO

I'll ask Jane and get back to you!

In the meantime I remain confused about the following:



But then you say:

QUOTE

Do you believe that there is ever a means to know Infinity?