They Kant?



Wish I'd said that... and of course, I will.



I'd say it's the legitimate or authentic purpose of religion, yes. Religion whose purpose is to control always pretends to some loftier purpose, and that's sufficient basis for calling it inauthentic without contesting any points of doctrine. In any case, yes, I think direct experience (a.k.a. "revelation") is the only avenue to knowing totality.

Well yes and no.

First you need to get your brain around the whole idea. Infinity to me is a constant continum (spelling?)... no end and no beginning.

Oh no, am I making sense?

I don't think the brain is of sufficient size to wrap around that concept.

...that is IF you've reached enlightenment. Guess I should have added that before, sorry.

Sorry, I thought it would be clear from my comments that i was aware of this. The point i was making is that we are unable to influence this "solid" reality in the "real" world, ( despite understanding its construction), by consciousness alone, although we can do so using physical means. On the other hand in the dream world, once we are aware of the physical construction and binding forces which exist, we CAN manipulate them, using consciousness alone. This is a real, measurable and significant difference between the real world and the dream world.

I have had dreams, as have we all, which are so real, that the manipulation of physical constructions in the dream were limited. For instance, I dreamed not long ago that I was on a mountain top...at the very tip of the mountain was a chair and while attempting to sit in the chair...I fell backwards...and I experienced 'free fall' including the wind rushing past my ears...I never hit bottom but woke up in my dream somewhere else...but I wasn't manipulating the physical environment...it was as much beyond my control in the dream as it would have been in an awakened state. I don't think the brain can actually decipher 'reality' from 'dream'. The visual images of both are a mental fabrication.

This last comment related to the previous paragraph about the powers which an organic brain does have. Almost all supernatural occurences can be explained by as yet un- measured ptentialities of our own brains, either in sending or receiving "energy" in a way we do not yet understand , but as i said, i suspect to be at a particle or wave -length level.

I was also very interested in the scientific explanation of matter in your response to my last post. Again, as a pre-teenager, i had dreams where I shrunk down to sub atomic levels as well as expanded to the point where i encompassed all that was. The thing that interests me is that the descriptions you give of matter at that level are just what i saw in my dreams. Seeing as these were in the late 50's early 60's, I doubt that these were concepts/ images which were even available in the scientific community. In which case, they mirror dreams i had of flying right around the world, including over the serengheti plains, and through the Victoria falls, way before those images were available to me through TV or any other media. Many years later, I watched helicopter shot film/video, which demonstrated that these dreams exactly represented what would be seen from such a height and over this terrain.
Perhaps those people who built huge markers on the earth that could only be seen/interpreted from the sky, really did not need aircraft or space ships to do so. they may have simply utilised this power of the mind.

right, but an object must be there to feel. Feeling is an act derived from the object acting. The person would have to be there BEFORE birth in order to have an absense of feeling. That is, if 'nothing' is is the absense of feeling something.

I think we're mostly argueing simantics when we speak of "nothing". It's just the absence of every possible and impossible thing, simple as that.

Yes I do. However the means is very arduous and a life time of self naughting. In a nut shell the means is to lose your individuality or "I" sense. But doing this you realize the infinite that you already are (something I havnt realized). So it is a matter of ditching the false sense of identity via religious/spiritual disciplines and realizing what doesnt need to be realized because it is what you have always been and always will be.

The paradoxes again! However this doesnt get you to know infinity really because to know infinity implies an "I" or "ego" and a separate infinity to know. You realize infinity by abandoning the deep rooted notion of a you to abandon it. It transcends all opposites and oneness.

I agree. Infinity is eternal.

So when we use mining tools to mine gold or whatever other resources we arnt using consciousness? You'd say 'not consciousness alone but physical matter is involved also' however matter is immaterial as quantum physics has shown and science has also shown that all sense perception is viewed not in an objective world but in our brain. And our brain is also a perception which is known solely because of consciousness.



Again I ask you. Why is it that if in the dream world you can use consciousness alone to manipulate the world more easier that makes it more real than the waking? Why is being more limited in a waking world that is viewed soley in consciousness the "real world" and being relatively a lot less limited in a dream world that is viewed soley in consciousness "the unreal world"???????

Also many a times have people have been able to manupilate the waking world via psychic ability.

Also what if both the waking and dream run by different laws of physics? How do we bench mark what makes "real physics" and what makes "false physics"???

Again both the dream world and waking world have been proven by science to be totally made of thought with consciousness being the experiencer. He is an article which will show you that world is a more mysterious place than you know. This is about an event that took place in the 'real world':


Mass Psychokinesis in Eighteenth-Century France.


Such incidents not withstanding, one of the most astounding manifestations of psychokinesis, and one of the most remarkable displays of miraculous events ever recorded, took place in Paris in the first half of the eighteenth century. The events centered around a puritanical sect of Dutch-influenced Catholics known as the Jansenists, and were precipitated by the death of a saintly and revered Jansenist deacon named Francois de Paris. Although few people living today have even heard of the Jansenist miracles, they were one of the most talked about events in Europe for the better part of a century.

To understand fully the Jansenist miracles, it is necessary to know a little about the historical events that preceded Francois de Paris's death. Jansenism was founded in the early seventeenth century, and from the start it was at odds with both the Roman Catholic Church and French monarchy. Many of the beliefs diverged sharply with standard chrch doctrine but it was a popular movement and quickly gained followers among the French populace. Most damning of all, it was viewed by both papacy and King Louis XV, a devout Catholic, as Protestantism only masquerading as Catholicism. As a result, both the chruch and the king were constantly maneuvering to undermine the movement's power. One obstacle to these manueverings, and one of the factors that contributed to the movement's popularity, was that Jansenist leaders seemed especiallyskilled at performing miraculous healings. Nonetheless, the church and the monarchy persevered, causing fierce debates to rage throughout France. It was on May 1,1727, at the height of this power struggle, that Francois de Paris deid and was interred in the parish cemetery of Saint-Medard, Paris.

Because of the abbe's saintly reputation, worshipers began to gather at his tomb, and from the beginning a host of miraculous healings were reported. The ailments thus cured included cancerous tumors, paralysis, deafness, arthritis, rheumatism, ulcerous sores, persistent fevers, prolonged hemorrhaging, and blindness. But this was not all. The mourners also started to experience strange involuntary spasms or convulsions and to undergo the most amazing contortions of thier limbs. These seizures quickly proved contagious, spreading like a brush fire until the streets were packed with men, women, and children, all twisting and writhing as if caught up in a surreal enchantment.

It was while they were in this fitful and trancelike state that the "convulsionaires," as they have come to be called, displayed the most phenomenal of their talents. One was the ability to endure without harm an almost unimaginable variety of physical tortures. These included severe beatings, blows from both heavy and sharp objects, and strangulation---all with no sign of injury, or even the slightest trace of wounds or bruises.

What makes these miraculous events so unique is that they were witnessed by literally thousands of observers. The frenzied gatherings around Abbe Paris's tomb were by no means short-lived. The cemetery and the streets surrounding it were crowded day and night for years, and even two decades later miracles were stills being reported(to give some idea of the enormity of the phenomena, in 1733 it was noted in the public records that over 3,000 volunteers were needed simply to assist the convulsionaires and make sure, for example, that the female participants did not become immodestly exposed during their seizsures).

As a result, the supernomral abilities of the convulsionaries became an international cause celebre, and thousands flocked to see them, including individuals from all social strata and officials from every educational, religious, and governmental institution imaginable; numerous accounts, both official and unofficial , of the miracles witnessed are recorded in the documents of the time. Moreover, many of the witnesses, such as the investigators from the Roman Catholic Church , had a vested interest in refuting the Jansenist miracles, but they still went away confirming them( the Roman Catholic Church later remedied this embarrassing state of affairs by conceding that the miracles existed but were the work of the devil, hence proving that the Jansenists were depraved).

One investigator, a member of the Paris Parliament named Louis- Basile Carre de Montgeron, witnesses enough miracles to fill four four thick volumes on the subject, which he published in 1737 under the title La Verite des Miracles. In the work he provides numerous examples of the convulsionaire's apparent invulnerability to torture. In one instance a twenty-year-old convulsionarie named Jeanne Maulet leaned against a stone wall while a volunteer from the crowd, "a very strong man," delivered one hundred blows to her stomach with a thirty-pound hammer(the convulsionaires themselves asked to be tortured because they said it relieved the excrutiating pain of the convulsions). To test the force of the blows, Montgeron himself then took the hammer and tried it on the stone wall against which the girl had leaned. HE wrote, "At the twenty-fifth blow the stone upon which I struck, which had been shaken by the preceding efforts, suddenly became loose and fell on the other side of the wall, making an aperture more than half a foot in size."

Montgeron describes another instance in which a convulsionaire bent back into an arc so that her lower back was supported by "the sharp point of a peg." She then asked that a fifty-pound stone attached to a rope be hoisted to "an extreme height" and allowed to fall with all its weight on her stomach. The stone was hoisted up and allowed to fall with all its weight again and again, but the woman seemed completely unaffected by it. She effortlessly maintained her awkward position, suffered no pain or harm, and walked away from the ordeal without even so much as a mark on the flesh of her back. Montgeron noted that while the ordeal was in progress she kept crying out, "Strike harder, harder!"
In fact, it appears that othing could harm the convulsionaires. They could not be hurt by the blows of metal rods, chains, or timbers. The strongest men could not choke them. Some were crufcified and afterward showed no trace of wounds. Most mind boggling of all, they could not even be cut or punctured with knives, swords, or hatchets! Montgeron cites an incident in which the sharpened point of an iron drill was held against the stomach of a convulsionaire and then pounded so violently with a hammer that it seemed "as if it would penetrate through the spine and rupture all the entrails." But it didn;t, and the convulsionaire maintained an "expression of perfect rapture," crying "Oh, that does me good! Courage, brother;strike twice as hard, if you can!"

Invulnerability was not the only talent the Jansenists displayed during their seizures. Some became clairvoyant and were able to "discern hidden things. Others could read even when their eyes were closed and tightly bandaged, and instances of lveitation were reported. One of the levitators, an abbe named Bescherand from Montpellier, was so "forcibly lifted into the air" during his convulsion that even when the witnesses tried to hold him down they could not succeed in keeping him from rising off the ground.

Although we have all but forgotten about the Jansenist miracles today, they were far from ignored by the intelligtsia of the time. The niece of the mathematician and philosopher Pascal succeeded in having a severe ulcer in her eye vanish within hours as a result of a Jansenist miracle. When King Louis XV tried unsuccessfully to stop the convulsionaires by closing the cemetery of saint-Medard, Voltaire quipped, "God was forbidden, by order of the King, to work any miracles there." And in his Pilosophical Essays the Scottish philosopher David Hume wrote, "There surely never was so great a number f miracles ascribed to one person as those which were lately said to have been wrought in France upon the tomb of Abbe Paris. Many of the miracles were immediately proved upon the spot, before judges of unquestioned credit and distinction, in a learned age, and on the most eminent theatre that is now in the world."

How are we to explain the miracles produced by the convulsionaires?? Although Bohm is willing to consider the possibility of PK and other paranormal phenomena, he prefers not to speculate about specific events such as the supernormal abilities of the Jansenists. But once again, if we take the testimony of so many witnesses seriously, unless we are willing to concede that God favoured the Jansenist Catholics over the Roman, PK seems the likely explaination.

That some kind of psychic fucntioning was involved is strongly suggested by the appearance of other psychic abilities, such as clairvoyance, during the seizures. In addition, we have already looked at a number of examples where intense faith and hysteria have triggered the deeper forces of the mind, and thesetoo were present in ample portions. In fact, instead of being produced by one individual, the psychokinetic effects may have been created by the combined fervor and belief of all those present, and this might account for the unusual vigor of the manifestations. This idea is not new. In the 1920s the great Harvard psycologist William McDougall also suggested that religious miracles might be the result of the collective psychic powers of large numbers of worshipers.

PK would explain many of the convulsionaire's seeming invulnerabilities. In the case of Jeanne Maulet it could be argued that she unconsciously used PK to block the effect of the hammer blows. If the chains, timbers, and knives, and stop them in their tracks at the prcise moment of impact, it would also explain why these objects left no marks or bruises. Similarly, when individuals tried to strangle the Jansensists, perhaps their hands were held in place by PK and although they thought they were squeezing flesh, they were really only flexing in the nothingness.

PAGES 128-132 Michael Talbot, The holographic universe.


There are literally countless episodes of out of the ordinary things that happen to people. You only have to look and you'll realize that the mind plays a much more intimate role in the world that you think.

But again.........it is perhaps that you 'think' the world to be less spiritual than it is and so your thoughts have created that reality for you.

This is a good point. I too have also had dreams where the laws of physics were basicly the same.

I think that the 'mind' creates the organic brain. Yes the mind is a lot more powerful that we can ever assume because it has no limits other than the fact that it is enslaved to its own activities (hence why the mystics aim to transcend thought).

Space and time are not conditions in which we live; they are modes in which we think. --Albert Einstein

"Thoughts" are immanent in the laws of matter, hence why they can transcend such laws (because other than thought what else is to stop the mind?). Our body is thought, our brains are thoughts, the limitatons we place on ourselves are thought, all reality is thought and therefore can be manipulated by thought. It all depends on how much faith, belief and focus you have behind the thought. The waking world is just as much a dream world as the dream world. As Buddha explains:

We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world.


Hence to manipulate it via our thoughts isnt all as hard as we make it out to be. However our unconscious minds are so rooted in the conditioning that this world is as it is regardless of our thoughts that on average the average (by there way there are no average people technically) person makes little difference. It all comes down to how strongly we believe.......

Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is. ---Bhagavad Gita

If we believe and have an intense faith in what it is we believe then we can manipulate this "waking world" with our thoughts. As Yogananda explains:

The world is nothing but an objectivized dream, whatever your powerful mind believes very intensely comes to pass.

And on the same note we have Jesus saying the same thing in his own way:

". . . I say unto you, what things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

and this:

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

"shall not doubt in his heart" in freudian jargon would be 'subconsciousness' or 'unconsciousness'.


These arn't flowery rants from mad men but profound truths spoken by men of supreme knowledge.

HAHAHAHAHAHA Cleverly said

But why should anything be absent? If nothing is nothing then it isnt there to be there when things are absent.

You'll appreciate this quote by Carl Gustov Jung then:

One of the main functions of formalized religion is to protect people against a direct experience of God.[/b]

Hahaha or in our case "infinity" or "totality".

Here is what the physicist Heisenberg has to say about words and concepts:

Every word or concept, clear as it may seem to be, has only a limited range of applicability.

My confusion is in the contradiction: Direct experience? All experience is mental experience...if thought cannot encompass totality, then how can Infinity (totality) be encompassed by thought (direct experience).
Or: If one cannot grasp Infinity because it transcends thought...how can one grasp Infinity through thought?

Listen to a taped speech by Bill Clinton.

Awareness isnt thought. Awareness/consciousness has no form.It is aware of thoughts and the senses but it isnt them. Awareness is the perception of the perceptions because without it you wouldnt be able to experience any of the fives senses, yet the five senses cannot describe it.

What we search for is the one that sees. ---Saint Francis


Direct experience of totality is to be aware solely of awareness and nothing else. Think about it........hahahahah you cant. What does awareness look like? We identify ourselves with our body, ego, mind etc and they all have a form of some kind. But to be conscious only of consciousness itself is........beyond thought.

That apparently is our real nature. Yet it is so hard to consciously achieve. To try and imagine consciousness; being aware only of consciousness itself is the equivalent to trying to think "nothing" because consciousness in itself is nothing in particular. It can be denoted to being there but not of any particular quality because it is formless......but since formlessness is the form of no form we have to go one step further and say that consciousness is beyond both form and formlessness.

I exist in a place beyond the reach of thoughts. ---Jalal-uddin Rumi (Sufi mystic)

For the one who has no inner, angry thoughts,
Who has gone past being a someone, a this or that,
That one is free from fear and is blissful.
Even the gods cannot win such serenity.

--A verse cited by Buddha

"Not being a this or that" is consciousness just being aware of consciousness....but because consciousness has no form it is nothing in particular including nothing in paricular and hence such a state is known as Nirvana or Brahman because it transcends thought...it even transcneds the thought of transcended though.

The relinquishing of all views leads to emptiness
But if emptiness is the view, then you have achieved nothing.

--Nagarjuna

Hahahahahahahaha!

I disagree. Consciousness is a thought process. Awareness is a thought process. Anything ...anything...that we think, do, or feel is thought process....any experience is experienced through thought....everything is mental...experience is mental...all experience...there is no awareness without the thought process...there is no awareness without the ability to acknowledge awareness...

...that being said...as per an earlier example of how everything is Energy in different applications...the awareness of a rock is not within the parameters of our mental experience. There is also no data to suggest that rocks have awareness...

...it is quite possible...and very probable...that the entire mental experience we have is due to a particular array of gray matter in our brains.

...is an amoeba aware? Is a frog aware? Is a virus aware? I wouldn't suggest that they are not, rather awareness is a 'life' force thing. I would suggest that a rock has no awareness. I would suggest that a rock is energy in a form that is not aware of its form. I would also suggest that that is impossible.

think of it like a dreamless sleep that never ends.
very hard to grasp.
i myself have trouble with it.
But, thats highly unlikely to even be possible.
i expect that after life there is another life, much like this but
a hell of a lot better.
no war, no killings, no murder..
some might say that its heaven.
i heartily dissagree.
no one can enter heaven,
the bible says so itself.
but im not one to follow it.
with years of practice of the occult one can worm themselves into it.
im just as sure as anyone else though,
so dont quote me.
(unless for the purpose of replying)

overall i suspect that it isnt half bad.
this life is supposedly the "hell"..
and i doubt many of you would dissagree.

.... i just ran out of steam.

mmm, you could then argue, that the thought that consciousness is a thought process, is just a thought process. ....

I would go onto say* that thoughts are formless, therefore that which they represent is formless also. That which we sense, is a thought in response to that which we percieve....

The map is not the territory ~ Alfred Korzybski ....if i had a penny for every time i used that quote

Consciousness is the infinate territory.

As thoughts are formless, and their subject with which they refer a formless perception, then there is no form, but there is still awareness. The perception with which thoughts refer as form is contained within the mind that we percieve as form (brain, human body etc), but this perception has no form.

As thoughts are formless there can be nothing to contain them.

When truely in their unforming state, there is no thought, there is peace.

(with reference to thread, this is the "nothingnous" of death, all that is left, is everything, everything without the confines of division. This is peace)

edit: *"as B said" removed...cause he didnt

Again, I must disagree. Thoughts are not formless. They do indeed have form. Thoughts are expressed in waves on the physical level. These thought waves...impulses of energy do have form...otherwise...the brain would not be able to categorize them into a memory system. Peace is when your thought process is not in conflict with itself. As one has an accumulated memory recall of both negative and positive thought responses, it is not an easy task to obtain Peace. I believe that Peace obtained is what NBW is referring to as 'experiencing Infinity'. And that may be a very 'physical' manifestation of the mental self. We do not remember pain...a physical manifestation of the mental...nor do we remember sexual excitement...another physical manifestation of the mental. So perhaps, we cannot remember the experience of Infinity when and if we experience...we only hold the memory of having experienced it. I would think that this is a very rare and fleeting thing....one that only comes about when ones thought processes are not in conflict with themselves.

Experiencing infinity is without the bindings of the manifest.

No. If you ponder deeper you'll realize that no thought is experienced without consciousness. Thoughts are forms, concepts and sense perception and require consciousness to be aware of them. That which you recoginize them by isnt recognizable via thought.





The whole universe is full of life. You say the stone is unconscious. It your self-consciousness, which now speaks of unconsciousness. When a person wants to see if there is an article in a dark room, he takes a lamp to look for it. The light is useful for detecting the presence and the absence of the thing. Consciousness is necessary for discovering if a thing is conscious or not. If a man remains in a dark room, one need not take a lamp to announce his presence. Consciousness is thus self-shining.

Now you say you were unconscious in sleep and self-conscious in the wakeful state. Which is the Reality? Reality must be continuous and eternal. Neither the unconsciousness nor the self-consciousness of the present is the Reality. But you admit your existence all through. The pure Being cannot be other than consciousness. Otherwise, you cannot say that you exist. Therefore consciousness is the reality. When that consciousness is assciated with upadhis( limting adjunct or attribute; everything that is superimposed on Brahman, the Reality), you speak of self-consciousness, unconsciousness, subconsciousness, superconsciousness, human consciousness, dog consciousness, tree consciousness, and so on. The common factor in all of them is consciousness.

Therefore the stone is as much unconscious as you are in sleep. Is that totally devoid of consciousness?

---Ramana Maharishi

Tell me what thoughts you have in deep sleep?



The whole universe is one abstract awareness all the way through. Thoughts get in the way of us realizing this because we identify with them and they are limited conceptual constructs, hence the mystics say that true liberation is to be free of thought. God is everything and God is infinite timeless consciousness therefore everything is infinite consciousness and infinite consciousness is beyond thought.

Again trying to think of a state of mind in which your awareness is simply awareness of only awareness is like trying to think of "nothing". It is an impossible task.

All energy is consciousness.

Cool post buddy!

Actually I said that thoughts do have form. It is the awareness that comprehends them that is beyond form.

ha haaaa oopsy

I dont think they do, they create the illusion of form.

edit: *goes off to re-read post, that i agree with anyway*


PRECISELY

When I am in an awakened state...I am aware of my consciousness. When I am in a sleep state, I am not aware of my consciousness. I am either aware of my consciousness or I am not aware of my consciousness. But my consciousness is...whether aware or not. Therefore awareness is not consciousness. It is something else...it is an accumulation of thought processes. Therefore you are correct that the thought process itself is not consciousness. Consciousness is separate from the perception via the thought process.

Does the rock have consciousness? Again, I have to say that you are right. It must. Because it is. It may or may not have awareness...that being totally separate from the consciousness thereof.
Yea or Nay?

Yes as i suggested, the organic brain and associated self awareness appears to have many "paranormal" powers, including the ability to move objects (Poltergeist activity) and stigmata. However, when there is no evidence of an organic consciousness as either a transmitter or receiver, such events are either rare or unheard of.
The same is particularly true of the jansenist experience.

This does not, however, speak to, or argue for , the idea that consciousness has an independent existence.

Yes, but the more relevant question for the point of the argument, is have either of you EVER been able to use the principles which often apply in dreams, in the real world. ie use consciousness alone to manipulate the reality within which you are existing at the time.
Can you create or manipulate matter in the waking world?

While there is evidence that a very few people can, the "scientific" evidence available (admittedly limited) points to a connection with the organic structure and operation of our brain in such manipulation, rather than our consciousness. (although admittedly the two are linked)
eg Stigmatists and fakirs can use the existing organic links between the brain and the physical structure of the body to block pain or create/heal physical wounds. Poltergeists are almost universally associated with real people, particularly teenage girls. There has been some evidence/measurement of actual energy created by such people, although so far a clear evidentiary connection has not been established.

This is a nice belief to have but it has too many flaws and inconsistencies to accept.

The basic catch 22 is the suggestion that we cant do things because we dont believe hard enough. That tiny kernel of doubt stops us from accessing our true heritage. If we could only fully believe we could all.....

So what you are saying that no one in all humanity has enough belief?

Another problem is that of "conditioning"

Unfortunately there is no evidence at all that you can condition people into such powers. The closest you might come is to condition them to think they have, to the point where they jump off a building believing they can fly. If a person believes strongly enough in their ability to do this, then why is the belief not great enough to allow them to actually do so.

I can understand your argument, if applied to people who had been exclusively educated in western scientific method and logic. Such people might have great difficulty breaking out of their mindset.

Unfortunately, both totally uneducated people, and primitive animists from the jungles of borneo, along with eastern spiritual believers, show no more consistent abilities in these areas than those from western cultures. Oh yes their beliefs may be more open, but their abilities are not.
Once taught the technique,s a westerner can perform the same "tricks " as an indian fakir; and stimatists and poltergeists are most common in western societies.

So, sorry, That argument "fails to fly" for me, as well.

In our dreams, if we are manipulating matter...it is something that makes perfect sense to do so...in our dream state. In another dream where I was falling, at the last second I grabbed the grass with both hands and swung myself around and up so that I landed on my feet. This was logical to do in my dream. We are able to manipulate matter in the awakened state by reforming it...this is what makes since to do when awake. We are able to do in either state what our minds believe we can do.

Awareness and consciousness are the same thing in my book. Even though we are unaware of a sense of "I" or self in unconsciousness we are still in existence. It is a state of nescience in deep sleep but it is an experience of bliss because when we wake up we say we slept peacefully and look forward to sleep when we are tired. It is a state of being without thought but being unconscious of that state as opposed to enlightenment which is a state of being which has no thought but you are conscious of it. So Ultimately the the highest abstract state of consciousness is beyond both consciousness and unconsciousness.

We use the word consciousness as a short cut in speech and indicator. The best I can bluntly do with words is give you a scenario.

Imagine being aware/conscious but that is all. Just being aware. Not being aware of anything in particular; just being aware.

You will find that it is impossible to imagine.

As for thoughts well they are actually the highest abstract consciousness because everything is. Abstract consciousness is the only existence......

However on a more relative level of comprehension thoughts is abstract consciousness manifesting as the universe and deep sleep is abstract consciousness withdrawing it all in making the universe unmanifest. The cycle continues over and over on many different levels of your ego until you reach the state that is indifferent to them all. That state is what you are here and now if you would only realize it (I havnt realized it).

The true state of being is beyond awareness and unawareness. It just is. Even saying it just is is to contradict it because because "isness" is a concept made of thought. Thoughts when identified as separate things from ourselves and other things in the universe are a chain and shackle that binds us from who we are.

Thought cannot do what it will, free itself from the opposites; thought has created the ugly and the beautiful, the good and the bad. So it cannot free itself from its own activities. All that it can do is to be still, not choose. Choice is conflict.

---Jiddu Krishnamurti

But when thought is seen in the light for what it actually is then it is no problem whatsoever.


The world is Illusory;
Brahman alone is real;
Brahman is the world.

---Shankara



The abstract and the temporal are seen as one, or as Swami Omkarananda puts it: "The whole world is a manifestation of God in God.. All is God and God is something that cannot be described but only experienced.

What can ne say about universal Being except IT IS? --Chuang Tzu (Chinese mystic)

Perhaps one of the best articulate pieces of writing that describes the state of abstract awareness is this:

The realization of what I am occurs in the timeless awareness which does not stimulate nor delude. I create a field without self or center, a field where even death becomes only analogy. I desire no results. I merely permit this field which has no goals nor desires, no perfections nor even visions of achievments. In that field, omnipresent primal awareness is all. It is the light which pours through the windows of my universe.
The Stolen Journals

God Emperor of Dune





A rock is unaware or unconscious but being unaware or unconscious isnt devoid of consciousness or awareness. They are simply a form of awareness or consciousness. A rock may have no sense of "I" but it still has existence which is some form or another of awareness/consciousness because as you mentioned consciousness is a precondition to being.

The rock has awareness/consciousness but not a sense of "self".

I dont actually believe that consciousness does have an independent existence. In my view I believe that EVERYTHING is consciousness. Consciousness in my book is the building blocks of the universe. It isnt that much of an insane theory considering that science has discovered through quantum physics that matter isnt actually made of matter.

Yes. Because it is via consciousness that we use our arms. It is via consciousness that we do anything in the waking world. As science has found out, the subconscious basicly rules the conscious mind. Also the dream world and the waking world are viewed in the same place in the brain. The waking world has been proven to be merely thought.



And all this is viewed in consciousness. No consciousness equals no world to be conscious of and therefore no phenomena.

Not a tiny kernal of doubt but mass conditioning which not only influences individuals on an indiviualistic level but also on the collective unconscious level.



They may have enough belief but havn't actually reprogrammed the deep seated conditionings of the subconscious/unconscious.



Surface intellectual belief is not enough. One needs to go deep into their unconscious mind and plant the suggestion there. It has to be so thorough that there is not even a kernal of doubt left.



You'd be surpirsed of the great feats many shaman have performed because of their beliefs. Here is a little article from "the holographic universe" by Michael talbot:

Although the kahunas of Hawaii do not walk through roaring furnaces, there are reports that they can stroll across hot lava without being harmed. Brigham told of a meeting three kahunas who promised to perform the feat for him, and of following them on a lengthy trek of lava flow near the erupting Kilauea. They chose a 150-foot-wide lava flow that had cooled enough to support their weight, but was so hot that patches of incandescence still coursed through its surface. As Brigham watched, the kahunas too off their sandals and started to recite the lengthy prayers necessary to protect them as they strolled out onto the barely hardened molten rock.

As it turned out, the kahunas told Brigham earlier that they could confer their fire immunity on him if he wanted to join them, andhe had bravely agreed. But as he faced the baking heat of the lava he had second and even third thoughts. "The upshot of the matter was that I sat tight and refused to take off my boots," Brigham wrote in his account of the incident. After they finished invoking the gods, the oldest kahuna scampered out onto the lava and crossed the 150 feet without harm. Impressed, but still adamant about not going, Brigham stood up to watch the next kahuna, only to be given a shove that forced him to break into a run to keep from falling face first onto the incandescent rock.

And run Brigham did. When he reached higher ground on the other side he discovered that one of his boots had burned off and his socks were on fire. But, miraculously, his feet were completely unharmed. The kahunas had also suffered no harm and were rolling in laughter at Brigham's shock. "I laughed too," wrote Brigham. I was never so relieved inmy life as I was to find that I was safe. There was little more that I can tell of this experience. I had a sensation of intense heat on my face and body, but almost no sensation in my feet."21

21- Long, Secret Science, pp31-39

There are literally countless of genuine recordings and investigations into the paranormal of people doing things deemed impossible by the average unimaginative mind. You only have to look. The universe is alot more mysterious as as we think........or more correctly more mysterious than we can think.



That is only a matter of opinion.



Well we both have very different belief systems you and me. But in the end. The belief in an independent objective world is a matter of faith because it cannot be scientifically proven to be independent of consciousness nor scientifically proven that consciousness creates it.

In my line of business...I help people to reprogram their subconscious. They can dream and believe all they want. They can watch movies like "The Secret" over and over and read loads of "positive thinking" books...but it will always be to no avail as long as there is a mustard seed of unconscious doubt.

double post....deleted

If the waking world is merely thought...then all of our perceptions in the waking world are merely thought. All of our discussions of consciousness and awareness are merely thought. If consciousness/awareness is merely thought, then the only thing that exists is thought.

I understand what you are saying in your discussions of Energy is Consciousness. What is really interesting to me is that the entire dialog, the premise, the conclusions, the perceptions are all 'merely thought'. Our perceptions of awareness/consciousness only exist in thought. And so, it leads us back to the plateau of thought process being all that there is. On one hand, to experience Brahman one must be devoid of thought...on the other hand, any perception of Brahman can only be had through the thought process.

So...nothing exists without thought. Nothing exists with thought. If all of our perceptions in the waking world are merely thought and nothing needs no thought to exist....the only thing therefore that exists is nothing. Perhaps it is nothing that we search for. Is that what Brahman really is....experiencing nothing?

The word consciousness and image associated with it is thought but consciousness/awareness itself is what allows us to be aware of thought.



Our perception of consciousness/awareness when objectified into a symbol or image is thought but consciousness itself isnt. Because no one can say what consciousness looks like, tastes like, smells like, sounds like or feels like. It is indefinable and therefore beyond the reach of thoughts.



At one level of comprehension everything is thought. Ultimately all thought is consciousness because everything is consciousness and undefiled consciousness is too abstract to be contained in an image description.



YES!@! Brahman is experiencing nothing! Nothing and infinite are one and the same because they are both indescribable and transcend all description.

Here are some articles that describe the nature of Brahman.

The significance of Brahman is expressed by neti neti (not so, not so);for beyond this, that you say it is not so, there is nothing further. Its name, however, is "the Reality of reality." That is to say, the senses are real, and the Brahman is their Reality.

---- Brahadaranyaka Upanishad


Atman= Self, the basis of all; the substrate of the individual, and identical with Brahman (the Absolute Godhead)

Brahman= The ultimate Reality; the eternal imperishable Absolute, ungraspable by thought and inexpressible by speech.




The Atman is that by which the universe is pervaded, but which nothing pervades; which causes all things to shine, but which all things cannot make to shine. . . .

The nature of the one Reality must be known by one's own clear spiritual perception; it cannot be known through a pandit (learned man). Similarly the form of the moon can only be known through one's own eyes. How can it be known through others?

Who but the Atman is capable of removing the bonds of ignorance, passion and self-interested action? . . .

Liberation cannot be achieved except by the perception of the identity of the individual spirit with the universal Spirit. It can be achieved neither by Yoga (physical training), nor by Sankhya (speculative philosophy), nor by the practice of religious ceremonies, nor by mere learning. . . .

Disease is not cured by pronouncing the name of medicine, but by taking medicine. Deliverance is not achieved by repeating the word "Brahman," but by directly experiencing Brahman. . . .

The Atman is the Witness of the individual mind and its operations. It is absolute knowledge. . . .

The wise man is one who understands that the essence of Brahman and of Atman is Pure Consciousness, and who realizes their absolute identity. The identity of Brahman and Atman is affirmed in hundreds of sacred texts. . . .

Caste, creed, family and lineage do not exist in Brahman. Brahman has neither name nor form, transcends merit and demerit, is beyond time, space and the objects of sense-experience. Such is Brahman, and "thou art That." Meditate upon this truth within your consciousness.

Supreme, beyond the power of speech to express, Brahman may yet be apprehended by the eye of pure illumination. Pure, absolute and eternal Reality---such is Brahman, and "thou art That." Meditate upon this truth within your consciousness. . . .

Though One, Brahman is the cause of many. There is no other cause. And yet Brahman is independent of the law of causation. Such is Brahman, and 'thou art That." Meditate upon this truth within your consciousness. . . .

The truth of Brahman may be understood intellectually. But (even in those who understand) the desire for personal separateness is deep-rooted and powerful, for it exists from beginningless time. It creates the notion "I am the actor, I am he who experiences." This notion is the cause of bondage to conditional existence, birth and death. It can be removed only by the earnest effort to live constantly in union with Brahman. By the sages, the eradication of this notion and the craving for personal separateness is called Liberation.

It is ignorance that causes us to identify ourselves with the body, the ego, the senses, or anything that is not the Atman. He is a wise man who overcomes this ignorance by devotion to the Atman. . . .

When a man follows the way of the world, or the way of the flesh, or the way of tradition (i.e. when he believes in religious rite and the letter of the scriptures, as though they were intrinsically sacred), knowledge of Reality cannot arise in him.

The wise say that this threefold way is like an iron chain, binding the feet of him who aspires to escape from the prison-house of this world. He who frees himself from the chain achieves Deliverance.

----Shankara (Hindu mystic)

Thank Brahman for Shankara

Beautiful!

Edit: As I have been extremely aware of the number 4 in sequences of 3 in a row or more for several years now...it comes as no surprise that I would post #444

Wow...too cool.

Cool stuff!

Cogito.

Our reality is not outside of our senses. This is a belief derived from many years of studying quantum physics and philosophies. The existence that we live in is a product of our own minds. It doesnt exist outside of our perception. A good example of this is someone who has been diagnosed as insane. This dianosis is based on the fact that this person sees and/or believes in things that the rest of us cannot see. Basically, they exist in their own realities. Also, something that relates to this that you must grasp is that there isnt one reality and one existence. We all live n our own worlds, as it were. So, basically, death is the ceasing to be of our world as a result of your inability to percieve it after death.

Ya reality as we know it exists within the mind but the mind is subject to higher laws of abstract consciousness in my view and to become one with abstract consciousness one must "transcend the mind/ego".




Elaborate?

Christian mystics speak in the same tone as Shankara.

The soul is in itself a most lovely and perfect image of God. --St. John of the Cross

In thos respects in which the soul is unlike God, it is also unlike itself. --- St. Bernard

My Me is God, nor do I recognize any other Me except my God Himself. ---St. Catherine of Genoa

A soul pure in God is God. --- The Philokalia

To gauge the soul we must gauge it with God, for the Ground of God and the Ground of the Soul are one and the same. ---Eckhart

Final and perfect happiness can consist in nothing else than the vision of the Divine Essence. . . For perfect happiness the intellect needs to reach the very essence of the first cause. And thus it will have its perfecton through unionwith God. . . in which alone man's happiness consists, as stated above.

----Saint Thomas Aquinas



This mystic message is the core of all the higher religions. The Indian mystic Sri Aurobindo was quite correct when he said: All religions are approaches to a single truth.

What is this truth? That all is infinite consciousness/nothing/Tao/God/Nirvana

That is our true identity and to find this out is the only worth while goal we have.

The aim of human life is to know thyselves ---Socrates

Ignorance of the self is the source of all troubles and the knowledge of it is deathless bliss and peace. (Sudhakar S.D, 1988. P66. (Yogavasishtha V.5.23)



Know thyself and then everything else is added because everything is who you are. You arnt just an ego in a body but the whole cosmos! But by Identifying with the illusory mind or ego we suffer the feeling of illusory seperateness.
It is a paradox as this little Zen/Tao story demonstrates:


A monk asked Wei-Kuan: "Where s Tao (infinite absolute)?"

Kuan: "Right before us."

Monk: "Why don't I see it?"

Kuan: "Because of your egoism you cannot see it."

Monk: "If I cannot see it because of my egoism, does your Reverence see it?"

Kuan: "As long as there is 'I' and 'thou', this complicates the situation and there is no seeing Tao."

Monk: "When there is neither 'I' nor 'Thou' is it seen?"

Kuan: "When there is neither 'I' nor 'Thou, who is here to see it?"

OUTRAGEOUS AYE?!

The only devil that exists is the ego that stops us from being what we already are, infinite. It all comes down to detaching from our beloved personality and its unique individuality.

If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. ---William Blake


This means we must lose the sense of "I" so that we can realize the "I" that isnt an "I" because there is no other:

"As long as one feels that he is the doer, he cannot escape from the wheel of births." --Buddha

By love may He be gotten and holden, but by thought never. --- The Cloud of Unknowing

If thou has not seen the devil, look at thine own self. ---Jalal-uddin Rumi

Purge the yourself of the ego (which doesnt actually exist) and then you are enlightened (something I have definately not acheived).


..The real God is not to be sought in idols and symbols, in temples or churches.
The truth of the matter is that the purified man is God himself, for he has become one with universal life. The purified man is the self-realised man. He has not to await answers from God, for he has no questions to ask. He himself is the answer to all questions; his life itself is a benediction. (Sudhakar S.D, 1988.
p55)

But if you worship idols like a jesus statue or buddha statue then that is bad for certain spiritual followers because not everyne is capable of understanding the abstract at first. As Sudhakar (Allah bless him ) explains:

But man does need God. Vedanta defines God as Brahman, which is beyond all duality, plurality and beyond all categories of thought; yet including these. But the Vedantic concept of God is difficult for the common man to understand. It is beyond those who are incapable of abstract thinking, for it is impossible for them to establish an effective living relationship with what is formless, infinite, transcendent, that Brahman is. Such people need a personal God with whom they establish a personal relationship- a father, mother, master, goddess, beloved, friend. Lord Krishna, a human incarnation of God, is closer to the heart of common man than Brahman could be. For unless the infinite is conceived in the finite form of a personal God, devotion will be lacking in depth and intensity. The senses need a form, a concrete something that can be held, touched and adored. (Sudhakar S.D, 1988. p54)

And so the purpose of life is to learn who you are which has no purpose because eternity and infinity transcend all purpose and purposeless. So nothing new is found out because you were always what you were.

MAN THE PARADOX!

There is no greater mystery than this: Being Reality ourselves, we seek to gain Reaity. ---Ramana Maharshi (Allah Bless him )


My personal view is that the mystics are the true scientists of the world. Their authority is never coercieve and always non-violent. In my eyes they are God themselves because that is what they consciously experience either at all times or frequently. And their sole purpose is to teach us how to achieve what they have achieved. They never set rigid or ugly doctrines and are always pacific in their political views (if they hold any).

And as history has shown they are sensitive to various temperaments of spiritual seekers. They may advise an advance seeker vichara while advising one to lovingly devote themselves to a particular type of image worship. The list goes on.

I myself need to purify my yearning for God more intensely before I will ever meet my Guru (either in manifested form or not).