Brave, can you eleborate?

Great Post BNW!

It is in the list of Dos and Don'ts that Man confounds himself. We are all with sin (ego) and their is no escaping it. Following a list of rules does not forgive it. Hence, as Jesus taught... Deny Thyself.

All religions do indeed point to the Truth...but the Truth is illusive because it is and it isn't. It is All. It is Nothing.
While this thread may be interesting to many...for myself...it is an inspiration close to the heart of hearts.

The Prophets of the Old Testament (and the New) speak of sins of the flesh. Wei Kuan speaks of Tao as only being seen when I and Thou are not present. I and Thou are The Flesh...The Ego...the sense of self. By experiencing our self we are denying Tao. By denying self we seek to embrace Tao. In this world of instant everything...instant gratification of self...how can anyone experience anything Holy? The Holiness of Tao...The Oneness of God...The Infinite...The Word...we are deluding ourselves when we think that we can embrace Tao by embracing ourselves...only in denying our self can we find our self...and in finding our self we are lost. Let me be lost in the Arms of the Almighty. The Instant Infinite.

I'd have to agree. I didn't feel this way in the early stages, but this thread has blossomed and has been a source of inspiration and confirmation to me. I appreciate his commitment to this thread, always addressing everyone who posts. That's pretty cool.



That was beautifully said Joc.

That just deserves a one liner and since I'm in that sort of mood.

One needs no guru save the muscles that open the eyes.

This is starting to sound like a Marx Brothers sketch.......'everybody knows theres no such thing as a sanity clause'

Whoa! Well put!It is a cool thing when you realize that even though different religions use different vocabularies they are in essence pointing to the same thing. You said:

"only in denying our self can we find our self...and in finding our self we are lost."

Many people cannot comprehend this. People like me who do comprehend it intellectually still cant comprehend it directly (even though in theory we already are). But as they say, the first step to evading a trap is knowng that it's there. And better to have an intellectual grasp of our illusory bondage situation than not.

We are all prisoners, but some of us are in cells with windows and some without. ---Kahlil Gibran

You definately have windows and it is awesome to converse with someone on the same wavelength. Such spiritual insights as that of the mystics and perennial philosophers dont require any blind faith. In fact like true scientists they can show the way so that you may experience it for yourself so that your faith passes into the realm of first hand knowledge.

Know that when you learn to lose yourself, you wil reach the Beloved. There is no other secret to be learnt, and more than this is not known to me.
--- Ansari of Herat

God is not found in the soul by adding anything, but by a process of subtraction. --- Eckhart

Do not strive to seek after the True,
Only cease to cherish opinions.
--- The third Patriacrch of Zen

As you already know, nothing needs to be done to discover Reality as it is except by dispelling your ignorance and by this is meant the removal of "I". To do this is hard work!

Here is a cool little conversation that took lace between the young Bishop of Belley and his beloved friend and master, Francois de Sales:

I onced asked the Bishop of Geneva (Francois de Sales) what one must do to attain perfection. "You must love God with all your heart," he answered, "and your neighbour as yourself."
"I did not ask wherein perfection lies," I rejoined, "but how to attain it." "Charity," he said again, "that is both the means and the end, the only way by which we can reach that perfection which is, after all, but Charity itself. . . Just as the soul is the life of the body, so charity is the life of the soul."
"I know all that," I said. "But I want to know how one is to love God with all one's heart and one's neighbour as onself."
But again he answered, "We must love God with all our hearts, and our neighbour as ourselves."
"I am no further than I was," I replied. "Tell me how to acquire such love."
"The best way, the shortest and easiest way of loving God with all one's heart is to love him wholly and heartily!"
He would give no other answer. At last, however,the Bishop said. "There are many besides you who want me to tell them of methods and systems and secret ways of becoming perfect, and I can only tell them that the sole secret is a hearty love of God, and the only way of attaining that love is by loving. You learn to speak by speaking, to study by studying, to run by running, to work by working; and just so you learn to love God and man by loving. All those who think to learn in any other way deceive themselves. If you want to love God, go on loving Him more and more. Begin as a mere apprentice, and the very power of love will lead you on to become a master in the art. Those who have made most progress will continually press on, never believing themselves to have reached their end; for charity should go on increasing until we draw our last breath."

---Jean Peirre Camus


If only more christian leaders out there could give spiritual guidence like this aye????

Brave- I LOVE READING YOUR POST'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure. Here is a parable that illustrates what I mean:

A hermit was meditatng by a river when a young man interrupted him. "Master I wish to become your disciple", said the man. "Why?" replied the hermit. The young man thought for a moment. "Because I want to find God." The master jumped up, grabbed him by the scruff of his neck, dragged him into the river and plunged his head under water. After holding him there for a minute, with him kicking and struggling to free himself, the master finally pulled him up out of the river. The young man coughed up water and gasped to get his breath. When he eventually quieted down, the master spoke. "Tell me, what did you want most of all when you were under water. "Air!" answered the man. "Very well," said the master. "Go home and come back to me when you want God as much as you wanted air."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Im only half hearted in my search for God. To many temporal things occupy my mind tomake it one pointed enough. The Guru is always present whether you know it or not because Guru, Self and Brahman are one. However If my longing for God is intense enough then a Guru will manifest in human form to teach me the means of being intimate with Allah or I will be recieve the teachings clearly from within. My yearning isnt intense enough yet to recieve either.

I have faith though that I'll recieve my liberation eventually whether in this life time or the next.

All will surely realize God. All will be liberated. It may be that some get their meal in the morning, some at noon, and some in the evening; but none will go without food. All, without any exception, will certainly know their real Self. (p. 818)

----Sri RamaKrishna

Im too busy with the toys of time.

Let me be lost in the Arms of the Almighty. The Instant Infinite.

"Instant infinite." I love it!

Where is that Guru this morning!

Not everyone!

He likes to hide in a coffee cup sometimes.

Ya I agree! Define sanity??????? In my eyes those very few in history who ever have achieved sanity are the ones who come across as insane. HAHAHAHA The paradox!

To your mind, I am mad.
To my mind, you are all sane.
So I pray to increase my madness
And to increase your sanity.
My "madness' is from the power of Love;
Your sanity is from the strength of unawareness.

---A SufiHahahahaha

I think the boiled water killed him.

Thank you and I feel the same!

My perceptions are that of a grain of sand in a great Sahara Sand Storm. Speaking of which: I am always blown away by the following analogy:

Walk into a sand storm in the Great Sahara Desert....freeze-frame the sand storm...with a pair of tweezers, extract one grain of sand...that grain of sand is not representative of our Earth in the midst of the Universe...rather, that grain of sand is representative of The Milky Way Galaxy in the midst of the Universe...and every other grain of sand representative of galaxies in the great Cosmic Storm....Truly as the song goes...All we are is dust in the wind...

From hundreds of billions of lightyears away comes the infinite...it is all One. How marvelous and unique it is to be in Human form in the midst of the Great Cosmic Storm...and only for a nano-second...blip, here and gone...blip, here again...

Thank you Brave for posting that story. I have read it before, and yes, it is the only way to know and love God intimately. Loving is my heart's desire.

Marvelous indeed, and oh so humbling.

Yeah, tis a very humbling analogy. We could go even further and think of the entire infinite physical universe as a simple atom that partly makes up a sand grain in the sand storm.

Loving you is my hearts desire.

Err...not sure we're on the same page with the word "loving" ... You're a sweetheart though.

i believe alot of the way you comment and like to articulate on others thoughts are quite limbotic...they consist of much negativity and un-understand ment to the direct feed of the sentence or paragraph you only 50%analyze, i feel brave new world that you never really be able to fully comprehend the true meaning of one key of many as you are abruptly flawed buy a materialist religion, im only surmising and u know that we are friends please wot are your thoughts on this...? i do truely luv sum of your analytical veiws on things but you seem sum what defiant to certain bits of knowledge that is given to you...do u think you articulate some times to be defiance is it because you cant handle any more steps forward into what infinite questions that will be given or answered to you...tell me...im very interested indeed

keep up the good work m8..

Please elaborate on this a little clearer because I dont quite get your meaning here.



If I believe or know that certain bits of knowledge are wrongly applied in certain arguments or miss a philosophical point I am trying to make then I am defiant to the argument that is made yes.

I cannot argue that certain bits of knowledge are wrong because then it wouldnt be knowledge in the first place but ignorance.

All relative knowledge is right and wrong equally because it is relative. But true knowledge isnt knowledge because it is beyond ignorance and one needs ignorance if knowledge is too exist. True knowledge in my eyes is God itself. . . It just is.



No give me all the questions you can give. Questions though are endless for they lead to more questions than answers. But yeah Im happy to give all questions a challenge because it is through questioning that we broaden our mind to yet more questions.

I liked this.........
This thread has certainly changed since I was last here Brave, Ive been having time off here for a month and been doing lots of thinking about things that have been bought up on these boards and my place in life and the Universe. As far as knowledge goes, I believe there is no right or wrong knowledge, as many people say yes say no, who is right, who is wrong? No one. It is a product of us living in our own worlds that our knowledge comes, it twists and turns the information to become the knowledge that we take on board. My knowledge is not your knowledge.

I think the last sentence is the reason many find it hard to comprehend life after death, it's the inability to perceive what it is that leads one to the non understanding of it and the rejection of it. It's how I feel about many things. I have come across the phrase 'life as we know it' alot lately and it means basically we find it hard to recognise anything we don't know and that's how life after death is, how can one acknowledge something that one cannot recognise?

Ya , unless one has had direct experience we must go by faith and intuition when it comes to death.

Where are you kobie?

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that after we die there is nothing. I also believe in reincarnation so that when I die, there is something to look forward to. I also believe that our conciousness can't die. Could you live with the thought that all your ideas, thoughts, and conceptions could end with an accident? A murder? Natural causes? Does anyone want to think that when they die, their thoughts die with them? Thee has to be something more.......Or else we are living to be subjected to nothing....
.

I agree 100%.

This is turning into a mutual admiration society


fullywired

I understand where you are coming from. It seems odd also to think that if there is nothing after death then what difference does it make whether you achieve anything in life?

Also though, what is nothing? It is something therefore it isnt nothing. So there is something after death even if it is nothing which is something. I havnt yet had anyone here who could define "nothing" without contradicting themselves.

Fair call,bnv. But I cannot beleive there is nothing after death. If there was nothing, what's this life for?
Oh and thanks zod. Any ideas?

Here is a quote for you I think you'd like:

The birth of man is the birth of his sorrow. The longer he lives, the more stupid he becomes, because his anxiety to avoid unavoidable death becomes more and more acute. What bitterness! He lives for what is always out of reach! His thirst for survival in the future makes him incapable of living in the present.

---Chuang Tzu (Taoist mystic)

What do you make of it?

Brilliant. Thank You. Jody

Wow Okay I'll give it a shot.

Being born your further away from God; meaning your soul has left His side and has become human.

Humans are further away from God and prone to misinterpret, fall astray, lose their path, increase their fears and basically wander aimlessly through life without realizing what their purpose is or may not think they have a purpose; therefore becoming "more stupid".

The anxiety is that as the human lives it learns to fear death and think of it as an ending and not a beginning. It is unavoidable therefore creating a bitterness out of a lack of control.

What is out of reach? I'd say immortality. Humans don't want to die, out of fear and lack of control; they want to be immortal.

Therefore, instead of living in the wonderful beautiful day (each day) they become preoccupied with future events and that beautiful day passes them by...they lose that day.

Hmmmm, I'm not sure but that's how I interpret this. Wonderful and thought provoking as always dear BNW. Jody

Hey Jody I liked your interpretation. It makes much sense. And if our soul is immortal why worry about a mortal physical death?

You said this:

Therefore, instead of living in the wonderful beautiful day (each day) they become preoccupied with future events and that beautiful day passes them by...they lose that day.

That was beautifully put. In my opinion, living in the now with all one's heart and letting God worry about the future is a big part of the means of reuniting with God.

As Jesus mentions:

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

---Jesus Christ, Mathew 6: 34

You have quite practical as well as spiritual out look. Thanks for your post.

Wow that means a lot to me... coming from you! Thank you, Jody

Okay so I will give my two cents as articulately as I can.

There is a huge problem with this sort of question, that is usually the problem to all philosophyical/theological discussions. Being, that all "facts" "beliefs" "ideas"...all of these things are human born and human found...human rationalized. Having said this, everything we perceive as "reality" or "factual" in this lifetime is completely based of human understanding, comprehension, laws, and principles. If you have any inkling of a thought or dedication to a faith in something even near the concept of omnipresent, potent, etc. then these cannot completely be applied to these logics.

There are many arguing this as if it were a truth. The fact of the matter is, in nothingness, there is no truth. Granted, there is no false either. There is no existence of truth or falsehood, leading us back to BNW's concept, "for the very reason that if something didn't exist it wouldn't exist in the first place to deny." There is no way to prove or disprove nothing. As a matter of fact, the sheer concept of nothingness is unfathomable, as human definition is placed to everything in our language. "Nothing" is too loosely a term used, only to explain the absence of something. Absence of activity, absence of food, absence of items. Nothing, is literally the description of there being no "something." In all fairness, there is no way for us to comprehend the absence of something, as to our capable knowledge nothing is never really gone, only ever changing. This would actually bring about my own concept of infinity, which is the human concept of forever, never-ending, etc. It is infinity, itself, that is the closest concept we could apply to our own understanding of nothing. As it is, that infinity is the "something" of an existence never leaving but ever changing.

I've also noticed there was a dispute about the "after death" "before birth" nothingness. Though I'm pretty sure in my own way I've stated my point of view, it does bring about an interesting notion, which is, the fear to die. Only people who are confused about their own beliefs, faith, ideas, what have you...are the ones who will ever fear death. The fact of the matter is if you know where you stand on the matter, firmly educated and contented in those truths it holds for you, you have nothing to fear. You already know it, you are already prepared. In a nutshell (though this does and will not speak for everyone, obviously) for the most part, you either believe you will go to heaven/hell, be reborn, or will simply die and return to the planet as a source of various energies refeeding the life as we know it. There is no reason to prove that you knew an existence before the one you live, or after the one you leave. Because if there is something, which is as I feel I have tried to explain, that is basically one form of life, nothingness contrary to popular belief would not actually be that something amiss. Instead, it would only be the something anew. One beginning, one end, and start it all over again.

Hope I made sense I had so much of my own information going through my head and didn't want to get too long winded! lol But yeah...there's my stance.

I am glad you understand this. It is obvious that what does not exist does not reflect in thought.




Yes. The correlation between nothing and infinity is there, I'm glad you see it (no really I am, most people I know dont).



Wow! Clear and simple which speaks a profound depth. I loved it. I am forever in debt to you. I like you!

I am not convinced that anyone actually fears death. I think those who 'think' they fear death actually fear life. They fear life because they are not happy. Happiness for many is an illusive chase...'I will be happy when....'. The result of this line of thinking is a miserable, unfulfilled life and, consequently, death becomes the ultimate 'I will be happy when...' scenario. I will be happy when I get to Heaven. The fear of death therefore is born of the deep ingrained knowledge that they didn't find happiness when...they bought that new car...when they found that special friend...when the house was finally painted...when their spouse moved out...when the kids moved out...when the kids moved back in...etc, etc, etc.
A life of extending to a 'future' event the power to create happiness. Death is the ultimate future event where some seek happiness...inwardly not quite convinced that death will bring happiness. And guess what...it won't.

Belief in death is an extension of our belief in life. Living life as though it is, is far superior to living life as though it might not be or even living life as though it might be. It is.

Nice post Ambriel. I feel though, all this talk of new life at death could encourage or comfort some to feel death could be an answer where they will live on in eternity finding the nothing was indeed something (infinity) seeking the rebirth of their new life after death so to speak.
If I believed in life after death I would not fear death either making it much easier to end my life in peace which would not be terrible for me at all but leave others with much grief.
Infinity is an endless eternity but only of space, time and numbers not life. If it were we may as well all kill ourselves right now.

I think many including myself fear death not for myself but for my loved ones left behind to cope without me. I fear my childrens grief and sadness.

Well said.

I think it is attachment to life that makes them fear death. We fear the breaking of that attachment because to do so is less physically gratifying and also costs us of our complacent identity, what is beyond this lukewarm aware identity is unknown and so the fear of the unknown comes into it. If one is detached from life then one wont even care when it passes.

We cling to what we attach ourselves too and cant bear the thought of being separated from it.

There is no proof that consciousness is subject to physical death so there is hope yet that we live after the body shuts down.

You dont have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body. --C.S Lewis

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Silence

With the connection between nothing and infinity and infinity having no beginning. Is infinity or endless eternity beginningless? Can we rebirth over and over each time we die creating infinity? Or is it not really defined as infinity at all? In respect to the 3 known things that identify with infinity, time, space and numbers, do they have beginnings? I first thought that maybe only numbers had a beginning and could say yes, infinity would be beginningless but then on more thinking....Time must have begun sometime (actually I think I saw a thread on time starting...), space began, at the Big Bang possibly, numbers have a beginning, 1, but then if infinity is reached in a rebirth cycle it would have no beginning, so the question begs Brave.......does infinity have a beginning or is it indeed beginningless? .....and another thing...Is nothing actually something? Infinity. Or not, is nothing still undefined? Since you have spent considerable time here early on defending nothing as being nothing and not something you might want to think about it.

I hope so, even if I don't believe it. Consciousness may be the key.

Love the quote.

Infinity isnt something that can be created but is something that has always been and always will be. To say that it has to be created implies that it has a beginning when infinity is eternal and without a second.



Time, space and numbers are reflections of infinity and not what makes infinity. Infinity is like a circle that has its centre everywhere and circumference nowhere. There is no point of reference in infinity.



If it had a beginning then it wouldnt be infinite because it would have had a finite beginning. And as for time, well time is an illusion of thought movement.



Both nothing and infinity are indefinable.



True nothing isnt anything to be denied.

So it seems infinity is beginningless. I see now numbers have negatives, space has no beginning point of reference, time has been forever, eternal, being infinite. 'No point of reference', good call. Thats infinity covered for me, ciao.

Im glad to of been of service. You are beautiful.

Here is a quote you may like about infinity.

Most discipline is hidden discipline, designed not to liberate but to limit. Do not ask "Why?" Be cautious with "How?" "Why?" leads inexorably to paradox. "How?" traps you in a universe of cause and effect. Both deny the infinite.

The Apocrypha of Arrakis

I don't know if you still visit this forum BraveNewWorld, but I'll leave my comments in the hope that you will see them at some point. Thanks to Sama and GetBornAgain I was introduced to this thread, and was very excited to see that you are pointing out something that I've been contemplating for quite a while now, 2 years to be precise, lol! I'd like to compliment you on your very concise description of something that's so hard to convey, your wording is so clear, it was an absolute pleasure reading you in this thread.

The realization that nothing cannot be known or conveyed is something that occured to me 2 years ago, except when I realized this there was much confusion. I had been on the hot and narrow pursuit of self and wasn't finding anything, which was just crazy in my mind, how can there be nothing I would ask myself!! After much time and effort, pushing myself to the brink of total despair, I had come to the conclusion that all that can be said to exist is some sort of mysterious Seeing, but I did not know what that was, I was beginning to give up. One night while wondering at how it has to be impossible for mind to find mind, yet mind is all I had as a tool to seek, it occured to me that mind will never find mind because cognizing cannot cognize congnizing! I'm using the word cognizing as a synonym for mind, seeing, and awareness, all forms of knowing anything. I realized that I cannot see/know myself because cognizing is what I am. But there was massive confusion because I wasn't extending this realization to everything, I couldn't understand how everything could still seem to be appearing when the cognizing itself does not appear. I realized that when cognizing attempts to look at itself all that's seen is absolute void, it cannot see itself, so it cannot be said that there is a seeing at all. But that's as far as I could go, the appearance of life going on as it always had seemed to be like an impenetrable brick wall, I couldn't see through this.


It's been a crazy couple of years, and that's putting things lightly, lol! I'm still finding my way through this, there is much that is still unclear, and that's how I found my way here to this forum and then to your thread. I scour the internet looking for anything that can push me further inward and this thread of yours has been a jewel. You've shared so many wonderful quotes, and I couldn't believe I actually found someone else who loves Parmenides, I was literally bouncing in my seat as I read you talking of him, lol! Nothing is the key, imo, the one thing that needs closest attention.

Anyway- I haven't really added anything to this thread with all this jabbering, but I wanted you to know that there are others out there who very much appreciate the fact that you got bored one night and began this thread. Funny how things turn out, I go looking for something specific and you provided it a year ago!

-Jamie

thank you



Yes I have had these same thoughts. I have alikened the absolute enlightened state to this:

Awareness being aware of itself only as awareness.

Or nothing (which is something) identifying with nothing (since awareness cannot be put down to any particular image or form). However the irony is that awareness or nothing doesnt have to 'identify' with nothing or awareness for the reason that there arnt two awarenesses or nothings, one to merge (identify) with the other, there is simply an all encompassing nothing or awareness.

Seems that it is quite a conceptual head-mess that can only be cleared up by direct experience (which I havnt had) which mystics refer to as enlightenment, salvation etc



Was an absolute pleasure reading your post and I empathize intellectually with the paradoxes you are dealing with.