So I'm asking for a little help to make my points. Keep in mind though, this isn't about attacking Christianity. I want to get across to him why I don't believe in Christianity, many reasons which I have gathered on these forums.
This was my first question:
QUOTE
All right, here's one.
Christianity believes god was before all things, so did god create evil, or was evil with him from the beginning?
Satan commited the first sin of pride, but for him to commit a sin, evil has to exist already, a sin being an act of evil.
If god created evil, he's not as good as people like to believe. If evil was with god from the beginning, the bible is false.
Christianity believes god was before all things, so did god create evil, or was evil with him from the beginning?
Satan commited the first sin of pride, but for him to commit a sin, evil has to exist already, a sin being an act of evil.
If god created evil, he's not as good as people like to believe. If evil was with god from the beginning, the bible is false.
The reply I got was this:
QUOTE
Your friend’s questions are thoughtful questions. They are questions that have been asked by many people who are astute enough in their thinking to pose them. The answers demand thinking that is at least as deep and careful as that which produced the questions.
First, no, God did not create evil. Evil is not a personal entity, nor is it a force or an object. Evil is an abstraction. One image that has served to create much confusion is the Taoist (and surfer) symbol of the ying and yang, where the black and white portions of the circle are equal and in balance. Evil is not a positive quantity of anything; instead it is the absence of good. God is good by His very nature. Sin is not the opposite of God’s goodness but instead the absence of it. The Greek word aJmartiva [pronounced hamartia] literally means “to miss the mark.” Missing the mark can, of course, involve deliberately shooting an arrow in the opposite direction. But that is not necessary for one to miss the mark. The NT says that all unrighteousness is sin. Sin is anything that deviates in the slightest from the righteousness that is characteristic of God’s goodness.
There are two phenomena that serve as apt illustrations, I think: cold is not a quantity of any sort (although we tend to try to measure it as such). Instead, it is merely the absence of heat. And similarly darkness is not a force of any kind; it is merely the absence of light. Light, even the small amount of light from a little candle, displaces even the darkest space. But darkness cannot overcome any source of light.
Secondly, since God has always existed it is natural for many to imagine that He must somehow be responsible for the existence of evil, especially since the Bible teaches that God is both omniscient and omnipotent. But God devised His creation so as to facilitate the greatest possible good and virtue. For that reason He endowed us with the ability to think, to reason, to feel, and to make free moral choices. The modern era has become well acquainted with mechanization, and with computers in particular. A good computer design is one that functions perfectly, without variation, and always to the will of its designer/operator. But a computer is unable to feel, appreciate, judge, or give such things as love, friendship, loyalty, mercy, kindness, trust (i.e. faith), etc. God prizes these; and so do we when we are thinking clearly. Would the world be a better place if people were incapable of sinning? We would be inclined to think so . . . until we should realize that to be deprived of our personal volition would reduce us to being nothing more than fleshly computer. When any real choice exists there must necessarily be the possibility of the one to whom the choice is presented making the wrong choice. Love or friendship or loyalty, etc. would have no value whatsoever if there existed no other possibilities! So when Satan chose to exalt himself and when Adam chose to defy God’s commandment, they did so of their own volition, not because they were preprogrammed to do so. So consequently the burden for sin belongs to us, not to God!
Thirdly, if one is inclined to doubt God’s goodness he/she ought to reflect deeply on what He has done to redeem us and to restore us to a right relationship with Himself and with one another. He owes us nothing! There is no necessary reason why He should care about us. Generally if we plant a vine or some vegetable or fruit plant and it becomes diseased or fails to produce we simply pluck it up or leave it alone to die. We might begin with another and forget about the first one. But God, realizing the frailty of our natures, was merciful toward us. He, for whatever reason, loves us; and so He undertook to save us from the fate that was the natural, logical consequence of our rebellion (and make no mistake, we have all rebelled against Him as some point or points!). To give His only begotten Son to suffer in our place is not an abstraction: it is the most concrete expression of love and grace that anyone has ever seen or heard. Never would any human imagination have devised such a plan of redemption.
There is much more that could, and perhaps should, be said about your friend’s questions. But perhaps these brief arguments might provoke him to think deeply about how he has perceived the world in which we all find ourselves. Let me know if I can be of any further help.
Lord bless!
Pastor John
First, no, God did not create evil. Evil is not a personal entity, nor is it a force or an object. Evil is an abstraction. One image that has served to create much confusion is the Taoist (and surfer) symbol of the ying and yang, where the black and white portions of the circle are equal and in balance. Evil is not a positive quantity of anything; instead it is the absence of good. God is good by His very nature. Sin is not the opposite of God’s goodness but instead the absence of it. The Greek word aJmartiva [pronounced hamartia] literally means “to miss the mark.” Missing the mark can, of course, involve deliberately shooting an arrow in the opposite direction. But that is not necessary for one to miss the mark. The NT says that all unrighteousness is sin. Sin is anything that deviates in the slightest from the righteousness that is characteristic of God’s goodness.
There are two phenomena that serve as apt illustrations, I think: cold is not a quantity of any sort (although we tend to try to measure it as such). Instead, it is merely the absence of heat. And similarly darkness is not a force of any kind; it is merely the absence of light. Light, even the small amount of light from a little candle, displaces even the darkest space. But darkness cannot overcome any source of light.
Secondly, since God has always existed it is natural for many to imagine that He must somehow be responsible for the existence of evil, especially since the Bible teaches that God is both omniscient and omnipotent. But God devised His creation so as to facilitate the greatest possible good and virtue. For that reason He endowed us with the ability to think, to reason, to feel, and to make free moral choices. The modern era has become well acquainted with mechanization, and with computers in particular. A good computer design is one that functions perfectly, without variation, and always to the will of its designer/operator. But a computer is unable to feel, appreciate, judge, or give such things as love, friendship, loyalty, mercy, kindness, trust (i.e. faith), etc. God prizes these; and so do we when we are thinking clearly. Would the world be a better place if people were incapable of sinning? We would be inclined to think so . . . until we should realize that to be deprived of our personal volition would reduce us to being nothing more than fleshly computer. When any real choice exists there must necessarily be the possibility of the one to whom the choice is presented making the wrong choice. Love or friendship or loyalty, etc. would have no value whatsoever if there existed no other possibilities! So when Satan chose to exalt himself and when Adam chose to defy God’s commandment, they did so of their own volition, not because they were preprogrammed to do so. So consequently the burden for sin belongs to us, not to God!
Thirdly, if one is inclined to doubt God’s goodness he/she ought to reflect deeply on what He has done to redeem us and to restore us to a right relationship with Himself and with one another. He owes us nothing! There is no necessary reason why He should care about us. Generally if we plant a vine or some vegetable or fruit plant and it becomes diseased or fails to produce we simply pluck it up or leave it alone to die. We might begin with another and forget about the first one. But God, realizing the frailty of our natures, was merciful toward us. He, for whatever reason, loves us; and so He undertook to save us from the fate that was the natural, logical consequence of our rebellion (and make no mistake, we have all rebelled against Him as some point or points!). To give His only begotten Son to suffer in our place is not an abstraction: it is the most concrete expression of love and grace that anyone has ever seen or heard. Never would any human imagination have devised such a plan of redemption.
There is much more that could, and perhaps should, be said about your friend’s questions. But perhaps these brief arguments might provoke him to think deeply about how he has perceived the world in which we all find ourselves. Let me know if I can be of any further help.
Lord bless!
Pastor John
Formidable intellect, this man has. I sent back this reply:
QUOTE
I like your reply, well thought out. Better than what I was expecting. Just one thing I don't agree on. That cold is the absence of heat. Heat is energy given off by the movement of particles, herefore hot and cold only has meaning comparatively, such as tall and short, big and small, etc. For instance, a tall man would be tall in comparison to other humans, but besides a giraffe the man becomes "short". Light and dark, as with the candle example, only makes sense if both exist. Should one or the other not exist, we wouldn't have concepts for light and dark. Similarly, good and evil could only be if both exist, like the Taoist yin/yang symbol you mentioned.
I think that calls for a revised answer on your part. Besides, Isaiah 45:7 can be translated to say that god creates calamities/evil. There are people that go along with either. Anyway, thanks for your answer.
I think that calls for a revised answer on your part. Besides, Isaiah 45:7 can be translated to say that god creates calamities/evil. There are people that go along with either. Anyway, thanks for your answer.
And received this response:
QUOTE
I'm happy to know that you are interested enough to try to think through what appears to be a great dilemma. I'll try my best to help you work toward some solutions.
I will contend that evil in the abstraction is the absence or deprivation of goodness. It is for that reason that we recognize that all that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. Heat, as you have noted, is the effect given off by the movement of particles. Absolute zero, by contrast is when there is no molecular movement at all. Movement of any kind must be initiated by something or someone. Therefore, heat is the product of a positive influence that is necessary to overcome inertia, whereas cold is simply the state that exists where there is none. Light can dispel darkness; but darkness cannot quench even the smallest light. Now, these are philosophical arguments, which almost always must be construed in terms of analogies. And, when it comes to what I call "ultimate realities" analogies often tend to break down. When we speak or think of God, heaven, eternity, et al, we are addressing subjects to which there is no corresponding phenomenon in our direct experience. That's why the Bible is necessary. Apart from God's having revealed what we could not otherwise know, we could discover nothing about such matters with any certainty.
As for the passage to which you referred, Isaiah 45:7, it needs to be understood that the Hebrew word [transliterated into English ra] has a rather broad range of meanings. That is the case with many Hebrew words, since Classical Hebrew had such a small working vocabulary. Ra generally denotes something that is unpleasant, inferior, of bad quality, or disagreeable. It can even describe a person who is depressed or in a foul mood. That is why translators and commentators are not entirely agreed as to the precise meaning of Isaiah 45:7 and certain other passages. The context of the passage is proclaiming God's sovereignty over all things, to create circumstances as He wills to do. And, by the way, something that may grate against our personalities is that He is God, and we are not. To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; that is to acknowledge just who He is.
Fearing the Lord, ie to regard Him with respect and reverence, might seem an onerous task were it not for some things that we can and should know and believe about God. One of my favorite verses in the OT is Nahum 1:7. It reads: "The LORD is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble; and He knows those who trust in Him." All this business about His being omniscient, omnipotent, eternally self-existing, etc. is not much comfort if we are not aware that He is good. Goodness, which has its manifestation is such expressions as righteous judgment, mercy, etc. is one of what we speak of as God's "essential attributes," that is to say that they are aspects of His very essence. With that in mind, when we contemplate evil in the world, the calamities that seem to occur to
all people as some point, we can trust in One who is good and be confident that He who works all things according to His good purposes has a plan that we just might not be able to perceive.
Let me finish this by saying that I am often dismayed that people speak of faith glibly and without thought. I believe that faith is (and should be at times) a struggle for thinking people. It is not as Soren Kirkegaard and others have described is, ie. "blind faith." To take a blind leap into the unknown is foolishness, not faith. It is instead a deliberation to trust in something or someone for which or whom there is good reason to trust. I, though I have been a Christian for almost 35 years, have from time to time prayed as one man who once stood before Jesus weeping: "I believe. Lord, help my unbelief!"
I hope that some of this will help to provoke you to continue your journey.
I will contend that evil in the abstraction is the absence or deprivation of goodness. It is for that reason that we recognize that all that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. Heat, as you have noted, is the effect given off by the movement of particles. Absolute zero, by contrast is when there is no molecular movement at all. Movement of any kind must be initiated by something or someone. Therefore, heat is the product of a positive influence that is necessary to overcome inertia, whereas cold is simply the state that exists where there is none. Light can dispel darkness; but darkness cannot quench even the smallest light. Now, these are philosophical arguments, which almost always must be construed in terms of analogies. And, when it comes to what I call "ultimate realities" analogies often tend to break down. When we speak or think of God, heaven, eternity, et al, we are addressing subjects to which there is no corresponding phenomenon in our direct experience. That's why the Bible is necessary. Apart from God's having revealed what we could not otherwise know, we could discover nothing about such matters with any certainty.
As for the passage to which you referred, Isaiah 45:7, it needs to be understood that the Hebrew word [transliterated into English ra] has a rather broad range of meanings. That is the case with many Hebrew words, since Classical Hebrew had such a small working vocabulary. Ra generally denotes something that is unpleasant, inferior, of bad quality, or disagreeable. It can even describe a person who is depressed or in a foul mood. That is why translators and commentators are not entirely agreed as to the precise meaning of Isaiah 45:7 and certain other passages. The context of the passage is proclaiming God's sovereignty over all things, to create circumstances as He wills to do. And, by the way, something that may grate against our personalities is that He is God, and we are not. To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; that is to acknowledge just who He is.
Fearing the Lord, ie to regard Him with respect and reverence, might seem an onerous task were it not for some things that we can and should know and believe about God. One of my favorite verses in the OT is Nahum 1:7. It reads: "The LORD is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble; and He knows those who trust in Him." All this business about His being omniscient, omnipotent, eternally self-existing, etc. is not much comfort if we are not aware that He is good. Goodness, which has its manifestation is such expressions as righteous judgment, mercy, etc. is one of what we speak of as God's "essential attributes," that is to say that they are aspects of His very essence. With that in mind, when we contemplate evil in the world, the calamities that seem to occur to
all people as some point, we can trust in One who is good and be confident that He who works all things according to His good purposes has a plan that we just might not be able to perceive.
Let me finish this by saying that I am often dismayed that people speak of faith glibly and without thought. I believe that faith is (and should be at times) a struggle for thinking people. It is not as Soren Kirkegaard and others have described is, ie. "blind faith." To take a blind leap into the unknown is foolishness, not faith. It is instead a deliberation to trust in something or someone for which or whom there is good reason to trust. I, though I have been a Christian for almost 35 years, have from time to time prayed as one man who once stood before Jesus weeping: "I believe. Lord, help my unbelief!"
I hope that some of this will help to provoke you to continue your journey.
And realised I was out of my depth. Now, I'm not sure if posting these was a proper thing to do... After all, the intended audience was me alone, as far as I know. But I need help in structuring some questions and answers. Umm, not sure what else I should say. But thanks in advance.
. She's smart, but not one given to questioning and thinking outside the box. I've already said I'm not Christian, and she couldn't understand it. She asked me for reasons, assuring me it's the truth, but she couldn't answer my questions, which is why she brought her pastor into the equation.
Enjoy the experience and do let us know how things work out, all around. 
. Also, I learn a lot from just reading threads in these forums, and usually someone would make a point I wish to make better than I could, which explains my dismal post count