I am a non believer who respects a believers right to believe. I also hold off (most of the time) on assuming that I am correct and the believer is wrong.

Sometimes people say that I am an agnostic then. Except I absolutely do not believe in the possibility of God for me. But I do think that others may have encountered it.

The closest way I can explain this is if someone tells you they saw a ghost. Now say someone swears up and down they saw a ghost. I am a skeptic and but I do believe that this "ghost" might represent something I don't understand. An energy perhaps.

So when the believer tells me they know God exists, I wonder if that means that they are tapping into to something that I can't.

Use the ghost example again. Someone tells me they saw a ghost. Do I believe them? Well I believe they saw something. But do I believe in the ghost? No I don't. The ghost doesn't exist for me. Only for my friend?

Does this make sense?

I wonder why people can't take this attitude when it comes to beliefs. Ok you believe in God and God exists for you, just like that Ghost. But God doesn't exist for me. I don't believe.

On the other hand the atheists and Deists and Agnostics will try to disprove the God that people believe in. Why is that? Why does it bother you that people believe what they believe?

Just curiou?

Perhaps that it is not that you can't or won't, maybe it's just your brain handles it differently.

That's kind of how I look at it. I can believe that perhaps others brains see it different.

Thats a good analogy.

That statement also say you do have some belief. Maybe your looking for a "sign"? Humans are complex aren't they!

I talked with "God" once. It was in a dream so maybe it was my subconscious, I don't know. I do know it scared the H.E. double hockey sticks out of me. It was the most lucid dream I had ever had! (He was mad at me, I had to change )

No I've had loads of signs and miracles in my life. And I went from believing very much in God, though I was never a Christian, to just one day "CLICK" it was off. I don't believe. I'm not prepared to pretend that I don't know what I know in order to believe in the fantasy.

But I do believe others when they say they know God exists.

This is a very interesting way to look at it true.

My father's side of the family seems to attract supernatural experiences. I grew up knowing that there are more things going on around us than most people are aware of. I have experienced, "ghosts" (I don't believe they are the spirits of dead people), demonic activity (same as ghosts but more "in your face" and potentially more physically and psychologically harmful), have had at least one interaction with an angel, and I've had several UFO experiences, (including a "glass" ball twice as big as a basketball which floated past me at about a distance of 20 feet). Before we got married I told my wife about all of these experiences because I didn't want her to discover she'd married a nut later on. She accepted that I had experienced these things (I usually say that she believed that I sincerely believed these events had happened), but that was really all she could do, since she had absolutely no reference point with which she could connect any deeper than that. Unfortunately for her, since she married me she has also experienced the "supernatural". After she had her first personal experience, she sat me down and tried very hard to explain that something had changed. She now knew that I really had experienced the things I had told her about. It was very sweet because she seemed to feel bad that she had been unable to completely grasp how real the events I had told her about were.

So, maybe that's where you are. From the conversations you and I have had, I know you are very sincere in your acceptance of my beliefs and in their reality for me, but they are not real to you (I want to add "yet" here). I'm not sure how that can change for you, but I respect where you are and why you take the stand you do (for now).

I've always thought it's pointless to try to prove the existence or non-existence of any god, simply because it's not possible. As a Deist, I believe that we each have to find our own way... nobody else can do it for you... so even if someone wanted me to tell them what to believe I couldn't.

I don't believe in divine revalation, and people can become very offended by this because they know I don't believe they communicate with the Creator. I've never quite understood why they care that I don't believe them, because they, after all, believe that the Creator I believe in doesn't exist, and that doesn't bother me one bit.

I think it goes beyond religious beliefs. I think some people like sameness around them... they don't like difference. Me, I like a lot of difference... because life's more interesting that way... but each to his own I guess.

I like the differences too Shadow. I think its more interesting that way.


That's an interesting post IamsSon. I forgot about that story but it does make a good example of what I mean.

I believe in an "Universal Consciousness", maybe that is "God"? I dont know? Something higher, in my opinion, exist.

I think "signs" are what each individual makes of them. Either you see them or you dont. But My belief is they exist. How one interprets them is "the game".


Question; May I ask to what some of the most prominent ones were?

Essentially to comes down to whether or not what the other person believes fits within the realm of comfort you have (and how easily it can be sychronized wih your own beliefs). This is why the debates turn from whether or not there is a god to if the role such a creature would hold in the universe is valid or not. People have different needs, and get defensive when those needs are challenged.

I've had examples that were more "karmic" so to speak. Where someone did the right thing, sometimes me, sometimes others I was close to, and a lucky string of events, one right after the other happened and turned it around.

If that makes sense.

Yes it does! not being funny: But like "My name is Earl."

I'll be on in a few hours....later!

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. (Rom 8:28)


I have been involved in several situations that were very ugly, obvious failures, and yet when the dust cleared, what happened was actually the best thing that could have happened. When you go through several of these situations, you LEARN that God really is in charge and really is trying to make sure you learn the lesson you need to learn and He really does have the best in mind for you if you can do the most difficult thing there is to do... have faith.

I certainly can respect this attitude, True. It really is remarkable to feel that way. People have that tendency to go into attack mode when their own beliefs are being questioned or doubted. I think it takes someone who is willing to let all that go out of respect for the person who may disagree. It's not about accepting that belief or willingness to believe it yourself, but simply listening and understanding that person who believes it. Regardless, which way you choose. It works for either side.

Like your ghost theory.. the only reason I believe spooks exist is because I have had encounters with them. If I had not ever experienced a ghost in my life, you probabally couldn't convince me they did exist.. It's experience, I think, that draws our conclusions, and not necessarily convincing words all the time.

I think that is the root of the conflict. We naturally tend toward our view being absolute truth, in a way it is. Cram a bunch of people together on the wrong day and tadaa! debate and argument over these absolute views. People tear apart other views because they analyze things according to their worldview (kinda like what I'm doing now). Some folks have a problem just leaving well enough alone (guilty).

I have a feeling that for some people it's always the wrong day.

Thank You!

Welcome to the new Crusades!

I see where you're coming from True... I'm a believer who completely respects the non-believer's right to not believe. I respect the non-believer who doesn't ram their "non-belief" down my throat in a way that ticks me off.

I don't mind a spirited debate between a non-believer and myself, I rather in enjoy it in fact. What I don't like is having that person tell me I'm delusional, stupid, immature, misguided, unevolved, etc... that's not a debate, that's just plain rude and ignorant.

So I hear ya on this one, loud and clear.

I thank you for your respect of others' choices and beliefs. You've always come across as a fair, open minded individual, and I thank you for that as well.

Now, to answer your question; yes, that makes perfect sense. If you've ever noticed, when a Christian asks if someone's "found" Josh, they tend to ask, "Have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior?" The most important part of this quetion is the assumption, even if done unwittingly, that God is a personal choice, an individual awareness. One does not simply choose a religion, instead it's something within a religion that resonates with an individual's soul/psyche/heart/whatever. It's almost as if the religion chooses the person, so to say. In this light, True, your understanding is astonishing. One cannot "see the light" if the beam isn't pointed at them, or something to that effect. Brilliant post!

As for your later questions, I coudn't say. For me, it's about showing people that regardless of belief, we are all people, and as such we all initially deserve to be treated to the same courtesies and respect.

I love deVol... hahaha.

I wish I could be half as eloquent. Truly.

I know that's a great part about the beam of light. Gets me thinking.

I come for the understanding, I stay for the love.

That is because we live in darkness. The Light doesn't 'point' at anyone...it is just there, always...we must step into the Light. Truethat has stepped into the Light. It is obvious from her posts that she is in the Light. Because one doesn't believe in God does not mean one is in darkness. To be in the Light is to not be in darkness. I have found that people will believe passionately the wildest things. And I agree with Truethat...why can't people just let folks believe what they will? I think it is because those individuals are not in the Light. It is hard to see in the Darkness.

What a kind post! Thanks joc!

You know though, honestly I wonder why people think this is so unusual. Because I do very much believe that most people do understand this concept and that most people in some way live their lives in it. Like if someone thinks Brad Pitt is the bees knees and someone else thinks he's a barbie doll head stuck on Arnolds body, people don't feel the need to pull out the knives and take each other down. Its ok to disagree.

One of my favorite sayings is "To praise one thing is not to damn another"

But I think you make a really interesting point about darkness. Perhaps even when someone is IN the light, they can fear the potential darkness, perhaps they are afraid if they lose control someone will turn off the lights. That's why we get this alpha dog mentality going around.

Nice post joc. Very interesting.

I think Fear is part of The Darkness. Another part of the Darkness is Ego. It's MY Light... You are obviously not in the Light because you are not in MY light. ~~~~ The Light belongs to no one. It isn't 'their' light, it isn't 'your' light, it isn't 'my' light...The Light just is. When we step into it we are illuminated...and just as quickly, when we step out of it...we stumble in the darkness.

I think thats very true.

I have an ex-army chaplain friend who knows exactly what I believe... and I know what he believes. There's no conflict there. When he mentions some passage from the bible and tells me what Jesus would have said (not that he does it all that often), I may not believe in Jesus but I can see the wisdom in what my friend is telling me. Does it matter whether or not I believe Jesus said it? To my friend it does not, to me it does not... I think we can have mutual appreciation without it needing to go any further. But I think some folks see rejection of their path by another as personal rejection of them... a slap in the face.

With most of our personal choices - which music we listen to, which actors we like - we manage to tell others about them without feeling personally insulted when the person we tell doesn't mirror our own enthusiasm. I don't see why our religion has to be any different. I'm a Deist, you're not, I like mature cheddar, you don't... no biggie.

Shadow,

People are threatened by what they do not understand. It is easy to accept something somebody believes in if you see it as no threat to yourself. The challenge is to accept something that could potentially threaten your worldview. This is where it gets dicey with things like religion. Religion is so life encompassing for beleivers that when the "one correct solution" mentality is applied, the potential of being wrong comes with too great a loss.

The greatest attacks are out of ignorance. Look around and you will see for the most part, those that claim tolorance are only doing so out of already deeming the alternate views as harmless to themselves.

Yes, I suppose there is a great deal at stake if you believe you've found the only way and are forced to face the possibility of being wrong. I've never believed that my way is the only one... it's just the only one for me right now... so I have a hard time trying to imagine what it must be like to believe you've found the only right path. It's perfectly conceivable for me that I could believe something entirely different as time passes, so the beliefs of others aren't threatening... they are something to explore as I develop. If I had found where I believed I was meant to end up, and didn't envisage any change, I imagine I would resist ideas that are outside of my understanding or which threaten the status quo.

I may be wrong, but from the past several posts it sound like you're implying that Christians who say they know the truth somehow fear looking at or exploring other beliefs because they might find out they are wrong. Is that right or did I misunderstand something?

If a person feels they have discovered the only true path, how do they view all other paths? I wouldn't know.

The Christians I've known who have been open minded have not been the "my way is the only way" kind. They've been free thinking, genuinely tolerant people, who had a desire to learn and explore. But they've believed that there are many paths to the Creator, so haven't felt threatened by anyone taking a different one to theirs. My army chaplain friend is one such gentleman.

Do you think that anyone who knows they have found the truth is threatened by other beliefs?

Your question is vague... the truth for them, the truth for everyone?

I don't believe in different truths, sorry, 2+2=4 no matter what time or place you are, so why should any other truth be relative?

I guess what I'm asking is, do you think Christians (those who are not "open minded") are threatened by others' beliefs? I mean it seems that's what you are saying, I'm just trying to ensure I'm not making an incorrect assumption.

Well, if we're talking about Christians who aren't "open minded" then I must assume we're talking about ones who have minds which are closed... and people who have closed minds, in any walk of life, tend not to embrace things which are contrary to that which they already hold to be true. In that case I would say that a person who has a closed mind would not seek to open it, so any exploration of ideas which are different to their own could possibly lead to fear and confusion. In that respect, yes.

iams,

the answer to your question, not just regarding christians, but everyone, is that tolerance and truth is relative.

those that claim to hold "the truth" are being deceitful.

those that claim "to be tolerant" are being deceitful.

the truth is they hold "a truth" or "the truth as they see it", just as they are really "tolerant to that which does not violate their views".

(remember 2+2=4 because of a system we constructed and control which is rather different than systems we neither constructed nor control)

I don't agree with this. I think you can have a strong conviction and still explore other ideas and simply because you don't accept their validity in no way indicates a concern that this exploration could lead to fear and confusion. In fact, I think that someone who has such weak convictions that they consider truth as being relative stands a bigger chance of being afraid and confused by other ideas and/or by the strong convictions of others.

one wouldn't be being threatened by others truths because they are comfortable in theirs, not because they have found "the truth" ..there is 'no truth" and to beleive there is, is the illusion......IMO Joc is a evolved voice for christianity one worth hearing..

son beliefs are relative they are tools, they are beleifs that have been taught about so much that they become 'truths'..... actually one who aware of this rarely experinces fear...

thought this fitted will here:

“Tolerance implies a gratuitous assumption of the inferiority of other faiths to one's own” - Mahatma Gandhi

After reading the posts in this thread ,I am driven to think that any one who doesn't believe what you believe is labelled "closed minded "


or could it be that your argument is not good enough to convince them????



fullywired

That's a good post hyper. I think this is what Iams is talking about. I often see people on here who claim to be "tolerant" but make bold statements of what "IS" or isn't.

For example Sheri says "there is no "TRUTH"" but isn't that an oxymoron? If you boldly state "There is not right and wrong" aren't you stating these things at total truths?

See what I see a lot of times is that the people who are so busy patting themselves on the backs and other for their fantastic ideologies are supporting that persons and their own, absolutes. But those same people are quick to trounce others when they do the same thing.

So even though they think they are being open minded they really are terribly closed minded. Which is why its the same stuff over and over again.

Whereas someone who states "I know there is a God and no one can convince me otherwise" but then goes on to listen and discuss with others their views, is actually a lot more open minded even though he (like IamsSon) is proceeding from an absolute conviction.

I think in "owning' your truth, you take responsibility for it. And therefor are personally responsible for the way you treat others and in the way you represent your truth.

That's why I like sincere Christians who try to live in Christ's example.

But you also get Christians who SAY they are open minded, but then actually underneath it all are merely "TOLERATING" the other point of view in the attempt to get people close to them so they can try to "convert them" I think Shadow Hill has a lot of experience with these kinds of Christians. They remind me of wolves in Sheeps clothing.

Now is it possible for those of us who do NOT believe in God and think that 2+2=4 is true and the four means "No God" to actually proceed from this absolute and take responsibility for it?

This is what my original post was talking about.

Tolerance ain't got nothing to do with it. As hyper pointed out, tolerance can very much be an insult.

But RESPECTING other people and their views is totally different. I often see people who claim to be the most tolerant people in the world treating Christians with disrespect for their beliefs.

Telling them all sorts of nonsense like MMW pointed out, how they're deluded, live in shame, are victimized and unenlightened etc etc etc.

This is what Ghandi was referring to I think.

Is it possible though for people who might absolutely NOT believe in God, respect the believer's belief? Is this possible or just fruity dreaming?

I think its possible.

You believe that close minded people are willing to explore other ideas?

Close minded: Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas.

How do you come to the conclusion that someone has "weak convictions" because they consider truth to be relative? I strongly believe that my belief system applies only to me, and that each person must find the path that best suits them. There is nothing weak in that. And why should I feel threatened by another person's beliefs when I am more than willing to explore them to see if anything resonates for me, consider how such beliefs might apply to me, and change my belief system without resistance if I find a path which suits me better. There is no fear involved there... just acceptance and growth.

I think that's what he's agreeing with. He's saying that FOR YOU you believe STRONGLY in your belief system. Otherwise you'd have a weak conviction.

Great post, true!

I think you just said what has been rattling around inside my head, but had not quite become coherent enough to make it out.

Respect is the key to actual dialog. Me saying I tolerate your beliefs either says "Your beliefs and my beliefs really don't mean a thing so, yeah, believe whatever you want and, in fact, beliefs are really so valueless to me that I'll go ahead and adopt your beliefs too," or at best they say, "I really could care less what you believe, because you really don't matter." Respect, on the other hand implies that although I may disagree with what you believe or say, I accept you as an equal and believe you have every right to believe what you believe, and I am aware or want to be aware of what you believe and why.

Isn't that what's supposed to be meant by tolerance? But New Ageism decided that tolerance meant agreeing. So now if you don't agree with someone you're intolerant.

I try to be tolerant, meaning when I disagree I do it respectfully. But I'm not going to stop disagreeing. Just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I treated them badly or disrespected or devalued them in any way.

I did not intend to imply that I think you have weak convictions, Shadow. I was attempting to point out what true stated so clearly in her previous post. It's not about tolerance (open mindedness) it's about respect. And since it's about respect, whether I hold a strong conviction myself does not really impact how I view you and your beliefs. Respect also means that despite my convictions I should have a real interest in understanding your beliefs, not because I am interested in adopting them or because I am insecure in mine, but because I want to understand you.

What about those what don't wish to ever see a ghost? EVER!!!

then one day can't help but see one..and its not just a glimpse either..its there...they can't scream, to scared to scream...are they only telling themselves...this can't be real...then later make up their own minds - I only saw it, cuz I wanted to??

I have seen a lot of skeptics say - you only see things, if you WANT to

I dont believe that

Could you touch on this a bit more hyper. See when I see people make statements like this I sorta chuckle a little. Because you are contradicting yourself just by making the statement.

If you believe that there is no "truth" and someone else does believe that there is a "truth" who are you to tell them that their belief is not valid?

I mean its like statements like these argue themselves into a corner in my mind.

You state that "the truth is they hold "a truth" or "the truth as they see it" etc. Read that again a few times and you will see yourself stating "THE TRUTH" which you say doesn't really exist.

So why are you trying to promote YOUR truth as "The TRUTH"?

This kind of thinking always boggles my mind. LOL

When I said my friends were "open minded" I guess I took it for granted that respect went hand in hand with that open mindedness... because it does for them. When it comes to tolerance, the only time in real life that I ever use that word is in relation to my mother-in-law... I can just about tolerate her.

The bit I've bolded from your post. Don't take this the wrong way... I don't know how to ask other than straight out... how does this statement sit alongside your belief that non-believers are self-deluded? I'm not sure I could respect someone who I considered to be self-deluded. I think I'd be more likely to pity them.

When i read a post from a christian that says they are open minded...I often wonder, just what is it that they are open minded with??

Anyone?? IAMS even?? lol