I've noticed a bit that many people who had been raised as Christians tend to turn viciously against the religion once they do stop believing.

For example, my former downstairs neighbor, She was raised in the midwest by a violent Christian father who sexually molested her. Ultimately she was removed from the home and raised by her mother's parents. She came to NY to start over in her early 20s. When I met her she was in her late 40s. She was very very intolerant of Christians. In fact one time I had a party at my house and my other girlfriend and her husband (who are born again) were there and my neighbor began attacking them for their beliefs. (During this time there was the whole Catholic priest child molestation scandals going down) Even though my friends told her they weren't part of the Church she still went on and on about the damage the religion had done. My neighbor had also had a little to drink and so my friends left early. When they did I asked her why she did it and she seemed so upset like she was going to cry but she pretended that nothing was wrong and laughed it off like a bit of healthy debate.

But I could see that the woman was really suffering. When I spoke to my Christian friend later she told me that she felt bad for the woman. She said that in her opinion, the woman couldn't get past the fact that her father was a violent and abusive man and so my neighbor needed to blame someone for the problem. She blamed the religion saying that it had made him the way he was. My friend told me this was a common thing. That sometimes people blamed God, and by extensions all of his "followers" for what happened to her. It was because the religion had to the neighbor became something that HURT her.

On the other hand my friends husband had dealt with a lot in his life. He had struggled with feelings of being unworthy for a long time. He had searched for answers to help him and found none. When he came to the church that my girlfriend attended he met her, he felt "alive" and "safe" for the first time in his life and then embraced the church and all that it offered. He studies intensely and feels that he is saved.

Now what I notice in these situations is that religion can be used to either "HURT" or to "HEAL" and what does that say about the religion itself?

I just wanted to make it known to you that in most cases, when a person turns "viciously" against a religion as a result of mistreatment by an adherent of that religion, something else is involved. If you have a person who molested you, and claimed to be Christian, you have no right to dislike Christianity for that. Even if Christianity was the reason the person molested you. All in all it was the choice of the person who inflicted you that caused you harm. Period. Christianity doesn't teach or advocate rape or abuse of any kind. Those who do so in the name of Christ are wolves in sheep's clothing. If a person needs somewhere to direct their rage than they should direct it at the attacker because it was the attacker's sole choice, regardless of any influence anything had on that person.





Religion CANNOT be used to hurt or heal. Especially not a religion that doesn't teach harming. What happens is, you have a so called follower of a religion who uses the religion to justify his/her own evil actions. The religion did nothing, it was merely a victim, a tool used by the person to justify themselves in whatever way that person thought he/she could be justified in. If you act in the name of religion, and than do something that is not of that religion, you are no longer acting in the name of that religion, you are merely blaming it.

I agree with your first point Child, but unfortunately it seems like a lot of people can't accept that their father, brother, aunt, mother, teacher in Catholic school, neighbor, cousin, priest, etc is just a horrible human being.

Its pretty sad in the area of child abuse though because its like a gaping wound. As long as the person can blame it on the religion they can pretend that Daddy was a decent man who just got corrupted by religion.

Ahh, yes. My evaluation of that is that that is the person's way of copping out. If you have truly gotten over it and forgotten it (put it behind you), than you will realize that it was the person who was to blame not religion or an outside influence. I think the only way to get over something like that is to realize that it was the person who did it, and not religion, or alcohol, or drugs, or any outside source. It works both ways too, a person can't truly be sorry unless they admit that it was by their own fault that they did it, not of any outside source. It's like a DUI, you didn't drive under the influence, you chose to drive knowing full well that you were intoxicated. You hit someone under the influence knowing you shouldn't have been driving drunk. Alcohol isn't to blame, you are. You go to court, get the max penalty and deal with it. Alcohol didn't make you do it, you chose to of your own will. As is such with all actions that cause another person harm.

Great point. You are talking about personal responsibility. And its interesting because it does seem like when people reject personal responsibility, as you pointed out, they tend to blame religion. Both the believer and the non believer. And if the religion is to blame and not the person then the religion becomes something that hurts.

But when a person faces their personal responsibility then the religion could be used to heal.

Also, that person takes the spotlight from themselves and puts it on religion. If you murder someone in the name of religion, and say "Religion made me do it" and than the world blames religion, you get off. Lack of personal responsibility will lead to the end of the world. Sadly, it affects all people. *shakes head* it's like Fareinheit 451, even though that's only a small tiny itty bitty fraction of the point of that book.

I think that's a FANTASTIC comparison TrueThat...

I also know people who have had churches completely damage them (not many, but my experience is limited given that I live in a pretty much atheistic or agnostic community).

I think you're right. Churches ... not necessarily religion, can certainly hurt people because they use it in a way that it was never intended to be used. It's used for control, power, or oddly as a way to push away someone who is different from you. The last is the example I see most frequently.

My church welcomes and fully accepts homosexuals, so most of the stories I hear come from our Queer Friends (their words, not mine). Many of them grew up in rigid Churches where the sin of homosexuality is to be strictly shunned. Many of them were completely cut off from the families who were suppose to love and cherish them. Interesting enough, these folks I know still kept their faith, and forgive their families for shutting them out. Saddly, in many cases that forgiveness is not reciprocated.

I'm not sure I know anyone (in real life--Ive run across some here at UM though) that absolutely detests Christians as a group. I can basically only think of one evangelical/pentacostal church in my area -- what I would call "fundies" and it is the biggest church in our state (the place seats some 3500 people! The police come out to direct traffic on Sunday!) But even the people I know who attend there are still fairly moderate compared to some of some of the stories I've heard here.

My experience is limited. I live in Seattle, it's the most educated city in the USA which probably has a huge impact on the religious climate here. I don't doubt that in the least.

I swear Child-of-Israel... you can't be a teenager. You're pullin' our leg huh?

You're awesome kiddo... never lose that perspective.

hmm...how discriminatory, as far as I'm concerned all sin should be shunned, including homosexual actions, but the sinner should be welcomed, and led to the denial of the sin...denying one's self, ah how beautiful.



oh yes I can. The only way I'm pulling your leg...nvm If I told I wouldn't be pullin' your leg anymore huh...

Child-of-Israel, I'm talking about REAL shunning.... where these folks have been completely abused and cut off by their families. I don't think that's what you really meant was it? Oh please, I hope not. Love the sinner, hate the sin if you must. (I don't, but that's between me and God isn't it? )

OH haha, yeah I didn't mean that...I edited the post....I don't think shunning anyone is right, it's only acceptable in some circumstance where psychopathy/sociopathy is evident (like people who don't believe in right or wrong).

Truethat, I think you've asked a fair question. I will share with you why, as I said in another post, I had disdain towards my past beliefs. It was because as a Christian I believed that "Christians" were the only worthy people, and were the "only" ones who were going to heaven. My degree is in Theology, and when I think about my self-righteousness and how I unjustly judged others, it just breaks my heart. I basically studied my way out of Christianity, and when I realized that a lot of the doctrine I believed in was in error, the disappointment for me was devastating. Being on this forum has reminded me of how I use to be and don't ever want to be again, and the stench in my nostrils still lingers. I'm not saying that all Christians are like I was, but I was a pharisee among pharisees. When I mentioned openly to IamsSon a while back about him not being free, I couldn't believe I had said that. I was really pissed at myself, because we are all on our own paths for a purpose, and my path is not meant to be the same as another's. I had made a promise to myself when I left the Christian faith that I would never deliberately try to impose my beliefs on someone else, yet I still sometimes fall short of that promise, and I'm not proud of that. That's why I really don't like to debate on religious matters. Who in the hell am I to tell someone else what they should or should not believe. I've missed the mark many times and I'm by far not qualified to tell someone else how they should live.

Edited for grammer, and to tell Joe I'm sorry.

Actually, now that I've given this a little more thought... I can think of one instance where a Church has contributed to the extreme damage of one person, who in turn, damaged her family.

I mentioned this a long time ago actually. I know someone who was slightly "damaged" to begin with, and she and her husband and their 4 children got heavily involved in a Revelations style church. She was already stressed (I think) due to having 4 children in 4 years and right about the time she started to lose her marbles she got involved in his church (she'd have lost her marbles to a certain extent anyway I think).

Basically she began to think she was an apocolyptic prophet and the church encouraged her "prophetic visions" rather than seeing that she was truly having some mental problems and needed serious medical help. During this time, she put her children in danger, and really, became almost dangerously like Andrea Yeates. I have no doubt that her children are scared and will likely become the type to grow up hating Christians. I'm starting to see it in her eldest who is now 12 already. He thinks that what that church did to prevent his mom from getting help is how ALL churches are. Abusive, ugly, hellfire, brimstone, false and unsafe. His mom is still (finally) commited to a state institution, but he and his sisters will have HUGE issues to deal with. Luckily their father is trying to show them a better way now that mom is away, but it's not going to be easy, they've all been damaged. Hopefully dad can help them find the Light.

Where exactly was the church to blame?

Well, my sister is currently moving away from the Christian faith, but I can't see her becoming bitter. She has always had a very philosophical outlook regarding everything, and for her I think this will just be a learning experience and she'll move on to whatever it is she ends up doing/believing in. I come from a family of people who just move on... my sister and I were raised to do that.

I had a friend a number of years back who lost his faith and went totally potty at his old church. Ok, they were a nasty bunch to be honest, and they made him very miserable, but his anger went beyond them and he hated every church out there. It took time for him to heal, but he got there.

One thing I've noticed is that a particular church/group's interpretation of scripture seems to determine the type of Christians it produces... or maybe the type of Christians who join it bring about the interpretation. Either way, there seems to be vast differences from one church to the next... some seem very welcoming, such as one in the village where I used to live. Then there are others which are so strict that they won't take anyone who isn't whatever their picture of Christian perfection is. It's like there are a squillion little sects out there, but they all call their faith the same thing.

I hate churches like that because they go on about "Evangelize, go out and make disciples" but they don't accept it when another Christian comes with an idea that is different from their beliefs.

Inner Space, forgive me if this sounds awful, but your story made me think of something. For a while I have noticed that people who are absolutely hateful towards other Christians are ones that were complete jerks to non believers when they themselves were Christian.

But going back to personal responsibility, is it the religion's fault or is it the persons fault that they were so mean and exlusionary?

I know plenty of Christians that are not distainful towards nonbelievers.

Truethat, For me personally, I never had disdain towards non-believers, I pitied them and I wanted desperately for them to be saved so they would not burn in hell. I was indoctrinated to believe that all were lost except Christians. This indoctrination was not church based per se, but Bible based, and I only wanted to attended Bible based churches, so for me I carried a great burden for the "un-saved". I still have many loving Christian friends but they still believe that I'm a lost soul.

edited to add: I don't know if I actually answered your question about whether it is religion or personal fault,. but in my case I believe it was both.

I'm not sure how much fault my friend had to play in what happened to her--she was truly ill, delusional, she thought (still thinks) she's a Prophet named George. I think her husband needs to be held partially responsible for not recognizing that the church clergy was encoraging her delusions, allowing them to get progressively worse and holding off getting her help, further endangering her children. I think she'd have been delusional without the church, but they were the ones closest to her. She needed help, she didn't need ministers and decons applauding her "revelations" and encoraging the violent visions. Without the church and without the hellfire and brimstone, her disease may not have have progressed in such a violent manner. I suppose there's no telling really. But I do think they should have been helping her, not keeping her from getting help which was what they were doing.

They aren't a bad church I don't think (although I'm not fond of that revelations, vendictive God type of ministry) but I think their clergy did some damage that didn't need to be done.

I hope that makes sense.

I hope the kids dad can show them that Christianity and God can't be held responsible for what a few bad clergy did to encourage their mom's poor mental condition.

Here comes the broken record:

Religion doesn't work because it can never accomplish it's intended goal: bringing man closer to God through man's actions. So, it's not religion which hurts or heals, it's the individual by either taking responsibility or refusing to take it.

Given that statement, an obvious question to ask me (given that I am not shy about my relationship with God) would be: "So, your God doesn't heal?"

And my answer is, yes, He does, but we're talking about what religion does or doesn't do, not about God.

What annoys me is statements like this ::::For example, my former downstairs neighbor, She was raised in the midwest by a violent Christian father who sexually molested her.



.How could her father be a Christian and molest his daughter ?in his case "Christian" was just a label.this is how Christianity and other religions get a bad name ,he wasn't a practising Christian ,just some one going through the motions to impress his neighbours.


fullywired

I understand what you're saying fw, and agree to a certain extent, because in the end you are right, this person was not a real Christian. But at the same time, you can't say he was only doing it to impress his neighbors, he may really have thought he was a Christian, either because his family considered themselves Christian, or because he went to church, or because he had a Bible (may never have cracked it open, but it was there), or because one time he prayed a particular prayer. I think this is one of the greatest dangers of how diluted the word Christian has become, and why Jesus said, "Some will say to me , 'Lord, Lord' and I will say, 'I never knew you'" (paraphrasing Matt 7:20-23). Since "everyone" is a Christian, very few are actually Christian.

Well said C O I I agree with you

This is a first because I am in complete agreement with you



regards fullywired

There's hope for me yet!

...or maybe there's no hope for you now

I promise not to make a practice of it !!



fullywired

This mornings news story was about the US military surge in Iraq and when we would be able to tell if it was working or not...they wanted to make assessments before Ramadan because they said Ramadan always increases violence. I was wondering why Christmas doesn't increase violence...

I think I'm right in saying that Ramadan is a time of fasting for Muslims so they are hungry and irritable. Wheras we eat drink and be merry at Christmas and probably fall asleep after eating so well

Modern world have Medical Science to Heal or to give side effect? Then again for side effect we will find one more religion soon or later that too Hurt.

Depression increases around that time of year (christmas).

There is a positive correlation between depression and certian types of violence.

Take from that what you will.

It sure does