In a thread on "where satan got his look", i promised Draconic Chronicler that i would get back to him about biblical, references to dragons. After some research, it seemed better to open a new thread, as this post will be quite long, but may also be of interest to others

First i do not dispute D.C's assertions that dragons were represented in earlier creation stories, or that possibly certain elements of those stories eg, the flood and the garden of eden may have been told again in the bible. However, my brief research seems to indicate that there is no connection between the dragons of such earlier stories and any reference to dragons in the bible.

First, I could find no biblical reference to dragons in heaven in the old testament, as part of the governance of the kingdom or not. Certainly, in the N.T., satan is referred to as the dragon and i will come to that later. (As an aside i did find some interesting information about seraphims and cherubims which i may post separately.)

Second, the first reference to dragons in the old testament is in Deuteronomy 32:33

"their wine is the poison of dragons and the cruel venom of asps"

This is significant, in that it tends to bear out the findings of my research.

Concordances, which are like theasurus's for the bible, give the following back ground.

The word dragon in the old testament ( from the Authorised version of 1611) is a translation of the Hebrew word, "Tan". It is always used in the plural, and is applied to creatures inhabiting the desert. It most probably refers to wild beasts and NOT (my emphasis) to any of the serpent family.

The revised version of 1881 actually translates tan as jackals.

The other Hebrew word "tannin", also translated in the old testament of both the authorised and revised versions as dragon, seems to refer to any great monstrer of land or sea, usually some form of serpent or reptile but not exclusively so.

And so it would seem clear that the Hebrew writers of the old testament were not writing about dragons as we know them, or as they may have been represented in earlier creation stories. They were applied to real beasts of the desert and sometimes large serpents.

In the New testament the word dragon is found only in the book of revelation, where it is applied metaphorically to satan. Both versions of the hebrew word are frequently used metaphorically.

D.C also represented the idea that satan (as a dragon?) represented god in some way rather than being the evil angel who fell to earth. While satan certainly was high up among the angels, and may well have had an important part in gods governance, Revelation 7-10 leaves no doubt about what happened.

And there was war in Heaven. Michael (probably another name for jesus), and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not.......
and the great dragon was cast out that old serpent called the devil and satan, which decieveth the whole world, he was cast out into the EARTH (my emphasis) and his angels were cast out with him.

DC goes on to present an iteresting alternative for satan's role on earth and his relationship(or lack of it) with jesus while He was on earth.

I went back to check that my recollection of satans temptation of jesus was correct. It was. Here is the gist of it Satan does not come out of it as the good guy. In Mathew chapter 4Jesus was lead into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. First, the devil urged jesus to use his heavenly powers to right wrongs etc, Jesus knowing that to give up his humanity would negate the sacrifice he had to make, refused.

Getting more desparate, and less subtle, the devil then said (verse8 and 9)The devil took him up to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world., and said,"All these things will I give thee if youfall down and worship me" IN verse10 jesus replies, "get thee hence SATAN (my emphasis) for it is writtenThou shalt worship the lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve"
V 11 Then the devil leaveth him and angels came and ministered unto him.

Again, fairly hard to misinterpret i would think, but I remain open to an alternative viewpoint on this if it can be both logically and biblically supported.

The New Testament writers were very Anti-Dragon becasue much of this theology was based on dualistic Zoroastrianism in which a dragon named Ahriman is the evil opponent to God. This contradicts the Holy Torah. God is responsible for all evil in the world according to the Torah. Satan is called one of the Sons of God, and long after Eden, God sends Satan to do his bidding.

Tannin cannot be a whale or sea monster becasue they also live on land in the Bible. You are right though, and I have said it here before, the word Tan is a Jackal and the Tannin is a reptilian creature. Tannin is the creature Aaron Rod is turned inot in Exodus, and this is obviously not a snake, becasue there were many other Hebrew words for Snakes. These same Tanin sing praised to God in the Book Of Palms.

Proof of what these Singing Tannin are is revealed in Isaiah, where the seraphim also sing praises to God. Is this a coincidence? No. Becasue the ancient Jewish Priests translated the word Seraphim to the Greek word Drakones. And this is absolutely proven in the Dead Sea Scrolls, written down and preserved for 2000 years, so Christians could not change and rewrite the scripture. So yes, the highest heavenly creatures are dragons, and the dragon Satan works for God in the Holy Torah endorsed by Jesus as the word of God. I cannot help it if later Christians introduced perisan mythology about god fighting a dragon, and put it into the "New" Testament.

What would cause these Jews who believed Yeshua to be the Messiah to suddenly become "Anti-Dragon"? The Hebrew mannerisms and culture still pervade the NT. This seems to be your trump card in promoting your ideas. So, let's have some viable proof that they suddenly became "anti-dragon"?

because dragons are bad mmmmkay?

Not the Jews, Moondoggy. By the time Revelation was written, Christianity had largely become a religion pagans were attracted to, not Jews. After all, Jesus failed to be their conquering Messiah they had expected. Proof of this are all the letter to all the chruches in pagan Greece and Asia Minor. Remember this is before the diaspora.

No, the ancient Jews were not anti dragon. The Dead Sea scrolls prove they regarded Dragons as the highest heavenly creatures, the seraphim, and I strongly suspect, the Cherubim too. This is why there are dragons on the temple Menorah, just as the creatures on the ark of the covenant would have been winged serpents/Drakons as well. There are even religious laws on how to depicts a "holy dragon", and what features made a dragon unclean (resumeably dragon servants of pagan Gods).

Even in early Christianity dragons were still regarded as heavenly creatures, as we see in the apocolypse of Baruch. But unlike the Jews the Christians regarded Satan as an enemy of God, not the servant of God as stated and demonstrated in the Old Testament. And we see in Revelation that John essentially took the Perisan myth of the Dragon Ahriman's defeat, binding, imprisonment and finally fiery torment, and assisgned this myth to Satan instead. Becasue of the identification of Satan as a dragon, this is why the dragons of the Bible would gradually be covered up, until many Christians are no longer aware of their role in Christianity, and the fiery flying serpents have been transformed into pagan winged humanoid demigods, ie. "cartoon angels", sometime during the Middle Ages And by this time the Jews had largely forgotten about the Biblical dragons, and in Europe, they were exposed to North European, anti dragon legends. This is when Jews too, turned the Seraphim into Christian angels.

Ahaa! Sorry If i came in late to an ongoing argument, and at least this informs me of your theological perspective, D.C. However, I guess i will have to beg to disagree with the biblical perspective you have developed based on other, or pre existing, beliefs about dragons.

My personal experiences lead me to the knowledge that people do have real and verifiable visitations from beings we may call angels. I then tend to lthe logical conclusion that both the bible and earlier religious beliefs were based on, and spread by, people who had similar experiences. I don't really see a symbolic or textual relationship between the dragons of the bible and either earlier, or later, draconic belief, but this does not mean those beliefs are not valid, and based on actual experiences.

If someone claimed to be an angel, and that they came from heaven, yet did not know the Seraphim were really fiery Flying serpents, or dragons, as they were later called, I would say they are fakes. It is no different than the charlatans that claim they were a Napoleonic soldier in a "past life" yet not know what his uniform buttons looked like.

This is not to say they are all fakes trying to deceive people, some really believe they are angels, fairies, even dragons in a "past life". They call this being "otherkin". But you know this is fake because sometimes an otherkin might be something like a Hobbit, which is only an invention of an author, and therefore cannot be a creature they once were. So even though someone might believe they were once an angel with all of their heart, they are only goin to know as much about it as they can learn from a book, and many of these people don't know enought about their otherkin lives to be very convincing.

You will discover though, if you read my book that dragons had a far more prominent, and positive role in Christian theology for centuries. Quite amusingly, most Christians are completely ignorant of this fact. Jesus goes so far as to say that the winged serpent dragon of Heaven is his symbol. And maybe it should be considering it was the only idol Yahweh told Moses to make, though most Christians don't like to call it an idol, for this implies it is the physical appearance of Yahweh, and there may some truth to this.

It is a bit difficult for someone to fake appearing as a pillar of light just over 2 metres tall and nearly a metre in diameter. Especially when they appear out of nothing in front of you, and light up the surrounding area for a wide space, with a light just short of blinding.

Also hard to fake a deep authoritative voice, which as far as i could distinguish emanated externally from that figure; but hardest of all to take away a nicotine addiction of many years in that very instant, allowing me to stop smoking from that moment on, after having reached more than a packet a day, over about 5 years.

Outside of biblical references, I don't really have any dispute with you about the place, real or religious, which dragons played in the life of early people. Having considerable experience of dragon riding during lucid/controlled dreaming, i can appreciate the power and significance which these animals could exert over people's lives.

I agree that there are some similarities of John's writings and other ancient texts. But similarities are not identical. I think similarities point to a central truth. John's writings are far more detailed and no other writings have four chapter that are addresses to the Church from Christ via an Apostle. Perhaps the only similarity is Satan's imprisonment. I see no logic for the Jews to adopt any of the Christian writings as they were viewed as heretical and forbidden. It simply is not a logical premise from that stand point. Jewish Angelology predates christianity. Also many of the scrolls found in Qumran were not canonical from a Jewish standpoint and the people that wrote them were considered to be Mystics. This is why they lived in apparant exhile. It seems that the beliefs that are non-dualistic as you may put it seem to not have the idea of dragons. The more the belief system stems into mysticism and pagan related ideas that dragons seem viable. Interesting!

So is satan according to christian theology, so why not adopt an anti-satan ideaology in script as well. Bad has nothing to do with it. Besides if DC is correct then the "biblical dragons" are servants and not "bad" as you put it.

what I'd like D C to tell us is if hes right and dragons are constantly referenced in the bible why is it that the word Dragon only actually appears in the book of revelation
bit of a stumper to the theory imo
also some people seem to be unaware that until the babylonian exile there were no such things as angels in Hebrew mythology at all
and that seraphim despite all the potestations to the contrary by a certain member are always described as having a human form and siz wings
one pair to fly with
one pair to cover their nudity with
and one pair to cover their eyes so they don't look directly at god
so a six winged dragon with a dysmorphic body disorder and low self esteem
sounds really dragonlike doesnt it
some people will try and twist any little detail to fit their agenda
the worst mistake anyone can make is by assuming that everything that appears in a book about mythology is real
it isn't
the second worst mistake that anyone can make is picking and choosing which pieces of evidence to believe
this is typical of pseudohistorians the world over

The word dragon only appears in the New Testament because it is based on the Greek word Drakon. The old Testament was written in Hebrew and Dragon is not a Hebrew word.

But the respected Kings James Version of the Old Testament refers to dragons MANY times, mostly translating the word Tannyin to Dragon. The singing dragons in Psalms seems to prove the Tanniyn are the same creatures as the Seraphim, the highest heavenly servants who also sing praised to God.

The dragons in Isaiah cover their cloacal vents with their wings becasue they are naked. Dragons do not wear clothes. If these were humanoid angels they would be wearing white garments like the rest of the angels. But they are dragons because that is what the word Seraphim means; fiery flying serpents. The Jewish Encylclopedia, Encylopedia Britannica, Encyclopedia Mythica, and many many others all confirm this. And to remove all doubt, the ancient jews themselves translated the word Seraphim to the Greek word Drakones. This was found in 1947 in the Dead Sea scrolls, so the Catholic Chruch had no opportunity to destroy the truth.

I am right. All the proof is on my side.

Okaaay.............next time you talk to God then, please ask him if he will confirm what I am saying about his dragon buddies. But I hope you are referring to Elohim, because Yahweh is also a dragon, just like his brother Enki-Satan. Or next time you ride a dragon, ask him if he is a seraph, and works for God. I'd really like to include these conversations in my book. And pictures, please take pictures, though I understand Seraph Dragons are extremly adverse to having their picture taken, and liable to eat you if you fall a little short in the righteousness department.

Now with Mr Walker's previouse post in mind, how many dragons have you seen? Most personal faith is based on personal experiences, seeing angels, talking with God. Speaking to a demon and ect. Since you have such strong faith and belief that dragons exist and are what you say they are, how many have you seen or spoken to?

I won't open that can of worms right now.

You guys missed one. I know it does not specifically say dragon but I think dragon (or maybe even dare I say, Dinosaur) is refered to in Job. It’s a fascinating excerpt.

Job 41:12-34
12. I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion. 13. Who can discover the face of his garment? [or] who can come [to him] with his double bridle? 14. Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth [are] terrible round about. 15. [His] scales [are his] pride, shut up together [as with] a close seal. 16. One is so near to another, that no air can come between them. 17. They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered. 18. By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes [are] like the eyelids of the morning. 19. Out of his mouth go burning lamps, [and] sparks of fire leap out. 20. Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as [out] of a seething pot or caldron. 21. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth. 22. In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him. 23. The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved. 24. His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether [millstone]. 25. When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves. 26. The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon. 27. He esteemeth iron as straw, [and] brass as rotten wood. 28. The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble. 29. Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear. 30. Sharp stones [are] under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire. 31. He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment. 32. He maketh a path to shine after him; [one] would think the deep [to be] hoary. 33. Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. 34. He beholdeth all high [things]: he [is] a king over all the children of pride.

No, I certainly didn't miss Leviathan. The invincibility of the creature was empahsized in the ode to declare the invincibility of the God who created and controlled it. But we also see in the Leviathan, Yahweh himself. In the only descripton of Yahweh, he also spews fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils EXACTLY like Leviathan, and also seems to have a thing for "consuming" disobedient little humans. And the only idol he ever approved, was a fiery flying serpent (dragon). But this should come to no surprise, because over a 1000 years before the book of Job was written, there was a Sumerian storm god who flooded the world except for one righteous man who was told to collect animals. And praises to this god included commments about his sign of the rainbow, that he appeared in storm clouds, and was a "good shepherd" to the nomadic tribes that made him their personal God. It sounds a lot like Yahweh, doesn't it? Oh, and in the same Hymns his title was "Great Dragon of the Earth". And no, this isn't Satan deceiving people, because Satan was another dragon originally called Enki, who built a Garden of Eden and is the BROTHER of the dragon of the flood. In fact it was the Eden dragon who warned the original "Noah" about the flood, not the dragon who did the flooding. And yes, it was really called Eden and the dragon's assistant that lived in the Garden was named Adam. Yes, the original stories differ a little bit from the Bible, but understand that for centuries the Hebrews were illiterate shepherds who repeated these stories as an oral tradition, and it is understandable they might mix things up a bit after telling the story again and again over the centuries. The world would not learn about the original stories again until archaeology would reveal them in the early 20th century.

But you are right, there is a connection between the heavenly dragons and their dumber dinosaur relatives, who cannot breath fire or talk like the Biblical ones that would become our gods.

DC, you make some references to "Yahweh". This of course is Hebrew, but I was wondering does this word have any Sumerian origins in your findings?

I am curious as well. Early Judaism seems to have formed out out of early Egyptian experiments with monotheist beliefs (the Atun), native Mid-East pagan influences, and (I believe) some actual Divine influence. As to the Mid-East influences, do you postulate that the Hebrews picked up some lore and legends of their neighbors, or do you believe that they adopted Enki and Enlil in whole as their patron deities?

Many Biblical minimalists dismiss the whole legend of Abraham coming from Ur in Mesopotamia, but this is really the most logical conclusion when we see how close the Hebrew beliefs were to those of the Sumerians. For example, they knew of Eden, tower of Babel, flood, dragon gods or dragon servants of God, etc. According to the authentic deuteronomy, these "dragons" were each allocated a human tribe to cultivate, and Yahweh's tribe was the Hebrews. This also confirms the Sumerian connection as his brother Enki's city state was at Eridu, very close to Ur.

Monotheism came about in Egypt as a direct result of Akenaton seeing his older brother (the first born son) being eaten by an avenging Seraph on the night of the passover. This is the correct period of the Exodous as the book will explain in greater detail.

No, in Sumeria he was called Enlil. There is little room for error as it is Enlil who floods the world in the original story, associated with the rainbow, appeared in a storm cloud, and considered a good shepherd to his flock, all related in hymns that sound as if they were written to Yahweh, except for the part about him being the Great Dragon of the Earth. But when this fact is accepted, many biblical events make much more sense.

Hmmm...

I had thought the Exodus occurred during the reign of Ramses II. I had wondered that the Hebrews were the downcast survivors of the Atun cult started by Akenaton earlier. I am not an Egyptologist by any measure, but this theory of the passover puts the Exodus back by a couple of generations than when it normally attributed. Still, it's in the ball bark. We are talking about a nomadic oral historical tradition (early Hebrew) combined with a highly censored, and revised official propaganda (Egyptian, and unlikely to record any such spectacular disaster as we find in Exodus).

Early Mesopotamia certainly appears to have heavily influenced the early Hebrews. Do you think it was an outside influence, or part of the original culture?

The Amarna tablets confirm this as well. This is the first time we read of the "Haiburus" attacking cannanite cities. How could this be if the exodous occured in the time of Ramses? Also among the Armana tablets were Akkadian versions of the original Adam story. Why? Probably becsue Akenaton wanted to learn as much about the God who controlled dragons that devastated his country. If anything would make you a "believer" it would have been this.

This earlier date is more historically correct for the dating of the destruction of Jericho. Everything fits. Dragons, of course, created the pillars of smoke and fire that guided the Israelites.

My sources had little to say on exact dates for these other events. Its good to know that modern archeology is finally tackling dates these subjects.

The dragons are one thing. I think i created them, based on readings from everything from "st.george and the dragon" to the many modern authors and interpretations. They don't appear anything llike the descriptions of seraphims as given in the bible.

The angel doesn't usually talk much except to deliver critical messages, at equally critical times. While i have only experienced such visitations half a dozen times in 56 years, this is one common denominator. One angel was a pillar of fire. One was a perfectly ordinary young man who apparently dropped off a bible while i was waiting for a triple by pass in hospital. The fact that the hospital had a policy banning bedside bibles at the time , and the fact that the young man entered and left my room via a balcony door 5 floors above the street and with no other way on or off the balcony were something of a give away.

He did not speak at all, but when I opened the bible and placed my finger on a text ( I am a fast learner when it comes to angelic visitations) the text said (to paraphrase) "Do not fear, for i am with thee/watching over you, and no harm will come to you." Until that time; 400 miles from home and family, facing a major operation and with a real statistical chance of not regaining consciousness, I was, if not scared stiff, then at least a little nervous. After that moment I no longer feared. I knew that what ever the result, I would be OK. More to the point, I knew that my wife and family, for whom I was more worried than myself, would also be OK.

However, I will certainly ask your questions, if I ever get the opportunity. I am not sure, even if I had managed to take a picture of such an intense light source, standing less than 2 metres from me, how convincing such a photo would be. In fact such a photo would be the easist part of the experience to fake, especially since the advent of digital photography.

I can understand your scepticism, D.C., although it saddens me. Until my first experience, my reaction to such someone telling about such events would have been very similar to yours.

My personal opinion is that the manipulation of particulate matter required for such manifestations comes at a energy cost which, even for god, is noticeable enough that it is not wasted. Thus such visitations are brief and only occur at critical junctures. Where a verbal message will suffice, this is more common, but i think my first angel knew that i would require "the works' to be convinced.

Since then, acting on a verbal message from the same entity has saved my life at least twice, almost immediately, and on other occasions with a longer time lag.

I also believe that if, for example, an angel needed to visit draconic chronicler, it might take on the aspect of a really powerful red dragon, in the knowledge that DC might take note of message, due to the nature of the messenger.

an interesting and thought provoking post mr walker.

perceptive final observation too.

Adressed to D.C.

Just because I’m curious I would like you to list your sources for these ideas: books, internet sights, or wherever they come from. I’m familiar with Gilgamesh and his parallel with the flood story but this is the first I’ve heard of a Sumerian Eden. It’s not that it surprises me. Unlike some I find the commonalities with cultural myths point to common origin so I remain curiously indifferent to their truths.

I shrug at discussions about the origins of Satan. No matter where the name(s) come from, in this day and age Satan means powerful evil being that hates humanity and wants us all dead. It really doesn’t matter to me if the name(s) have been switched or misplaced while regarding certain entities. If the original Satan/Lucifer/Devil does not want to destroy all mankind then the original entity fails the modern definition. It’s just that simple. I also disagree with the idea that the Old Testament Lucifer is different from the New Testament Lucifer. Some say that Lucifer was an obedient angel of trial in the Old and turned into the rebellious Devil of the New due to the Zoroastrian influence in Babylon. While certainly syncretism in cultural ideas is a real factor, I find the Devil of the New Testament to be playing the same role as he played in Job. In the New Testament Satan says to JESUS (paraphrasing), “all authority on Earth has been given to me and I can do with it as I chose. I will give you the world if only you will worship me.”
Again later in the New Testament JESUS say’s to Peter (again paraphrasing due to laziness), “Satan has asked for thee Peter, so he may sift you as wheat.” Even in Revelation it is written that the things that will due evil are given their power by GOD. Examining these verses makes me suspect that the concepts are not nearly as different as some try to make them out to be. In both the Old Testament and the New, Satan has to ask before he can do anything. In both the Old Testament and the New, Satan works against mankind and in my opinion, judging from Job, you get the idea that Satan really wants man to fail.

As far as demonizing Dragons, I really can’t say. I’m not sure that the bible necessarily demonizes dragons any more than it demonizes lions. Dragons can be used interchangeably like lions. In one part Satan is referred to as a lion and in the other part JESUS is referred to as a lion. But the status of either is kind of neutral.

Also…you mentioned that you were writing a book; are you serious about that or is it just an idea? Do you have it already written? What’s it about?

I do not know how much of the Bible you take seriously, but the spirit angels originate in the New Testament. The Angels of the Old Testament, as well as the Serpah-dragons who you wish to ignore all together, seem to be flesh and blood creatures. The Bible says angels must eat food. They eat food on earth and look identical to men, and they eat the substance called manna in heaven. Scriptures no longer in the "approved" body of the New Testament, like the Apocolypse of Baruch, state the dragons in heaven are sustained by the bodies of wicked humans.

If you believe you have the ability to "create and ride dragons" of you own design, how do you know you did not also create from your own mind the angels you talk about?

The best single source that explains the Sumerian origins of the earliest Bible stories is Bibleorigins.com

The Jews who know far more about the Hebrew Bible than Christians, never invented a Lucifer out of it, and never came up with the blasphemous idea that one of Gods created servants, could revolt and oppose him for all these centuries until a coming apocolyptic battle. Christians get these ideas from the evil Dragon in Persaian Zoroastrianism, NOT from the Bible.

Satan in the book of Job is God's prosecuting attorney in the heavenly court, and is counted among the Sons of God. Nor is Satan ever identified with the Serpent in the Garden of Eden in the Old Testament. And you are right, Satan must ask God's permission to do anything, which is why the Christian stealing of the dualistic Ahriman to make Satan the rebellious enemy of God is ridiculous. Based on various scriptures, Satan seems to be one of the Seraph dragons that consume the souls of the wicked. This is why he asks for Peter, and why Jesus warns he sought to devour the apostles "like a hungry lion". This was probably a warning to the apostles by Jesus of the consequences if they fell away from him, but taken out of context. The so called temptation makes no sense in the light of Satan asking permission from God to do anything as you have already acknowledge. This also was probably taken out of context by the New Testament writers. Satan is doing EXACTLY what the Old Testament prophecies said the Messiah was supposed to do. He was offering his God given power to help Jesus conquer the world and make Jerusalem its new capitol. Jesus claimed his Kingdom was not of this world, and this is why the Jews largely rejected them. He was not their conquering Messiah, but would have, if Jesus accepted Satan's assistance.

Jesus endorses the Jewish Old Testament. NOT the Persian Zoroastrian mythology that inspired the revelation of John of Patmos.

I didn't say the Bible demonizes dragons. quite the contrary is the case. In the book of Psalms dragons sing praises to God. They are identified as the fiery fling serpents (seraphim) that also sing praises to God and are the highest heaenly creatures. Jesus says the fiery flying serpent is his personal emblem, and when he told his apostles to be wise as serpents, he was obviously referring to the Seraphim serpent dragons, who must we wise as early Christian scripture acknowledges it is these creatures, you judge souls and consume the wicked ones.

In almost every medieval bible, you will see God riding a dragon, because this was the more authentic view of the Cherubim he rides in various bible passages, not a chubby baby angel.

The anti dragon Chruch literature (except for Satan) does not come until late medieval times with invented stories of Saints slaying dragons, which actually contradict the earlier versions that contained no dragons. St. George is a good example of this. There were no dragons in his story until invented by a French novelist. But the dragonslaying nonsense made the Saint more more and made more money for the Church selling St. George souveniers.

The book is very real, and largely examines the Biblical dragons, and their connections with other worldwide dragon legends. It reveals much information about the signficant role these creatures play in the Bible and other Judao Christian scriptures, most Christians are compltely unaware of. I really intend to have it released this year, but I keep adding things as new information surfaces, sometimes in these forum discussions.

Been away for a few days, but just wanted to answer a q. from D.C.



This is a reasonable question . The answer has several elements.

One. In controlled, lucid dreaming i deliberately structure my dreams. i am aware that I am dreaming and it takes conscious effort during my waking hours to learn how to manipulate dreams. Even though the dreams are incredibly realistic, I am aware at all times that they are not "real" which is why i am able to manipulate them.

Second. None of my visitations have occured when i was on either side of sleep, rather in full waking mode, and sometimes with other witnesses present. Thus they are not likely to be that form of visitation quite common as one goes to sleep or wakes up.

Third, and most convincing, the visitations are accompanied by verifiable physical manifestations. Now while it may be physically possible for my mind to "take away" a physical addiction to nicotine occams razor suggests that the simplest answer is the most likely. Other angels have restored electricity momentarilly in the middle of a huge bushfire, when all the lines are down and other infrastructure destroyed, and at the same time spoken to me saying, "turn on your radio and listen". I Turned on the radio even though the power had been out for several hours. It came on for just 30 seconds or so, during which time a message came on to say that the bushfire had changed direction and was now bearing down on our property, and only about 15 minutes away. While we lost our house and all our possessions, without this warning we would have died, along with nine other people who were trapped within the fire, or overtaken by the fire front.

Other angels have given me direct prophecies of the future, enabling me to escape death at other times, or simply to change my actions and thus my future. While i believe the human mind is very powerful, i do not believe that it, alone, can predict the future, or manipulate energy and matter. Thus, it is the totality of my experiences, along with the power of individual visitations which has convinced me of the reality of angels and the power they have. From this it is no step at all to the realisation that it is highly unlikely that my experiences should be unique, when they match so many of the biblical and other descriptors of angels.

Dragons are winged beings portrayed in the ancient mythologies of most cultures. They link with winged gods from the heavens who came to Earth to create the human race and are very important symbology in the creational blueprint of our reality.

Much of dragon lore tells us that dragons were loathsome beasts and evil enemies to humankind. But dragons were born of a time other than men; a time of chaos; a time of creation out of destruction. The dragon is a fabulous and universal symbolic figure found in most cultures thought the world.

Some examples of the symbology of the dragon are:

- Gnostics: "The way through all things."

- Alchemy: "A winged dragon - the volatile elements; without wings - the fixed elements."

- Chinese: "The spirit of the way"' bringing eternal change.

- Guardian of the 'Flaming Pearl" symbol of spiritual perfection and powerful amulet of luck.

The early Chinese believed in four magical, spiritual and benevolent animals; the Dragon, the Phoenix, the Tortoise and the Unicorn. The Dragon was the most revered of all. In it's claws it holds an enormous magical pearl, which has the power to multiply whatever it touches. The ancients believed the "pearl" symbolized the most precious treasure; Wisdom.

Many legends say they were fabulous animals usually represented as a monstrous winged and scaly serpent or saurian with a crested head and enormous claws. - also - a monster, represented usually as a gigantic reptile breathing fire and having a lion's claws, the tail of a serpent, wings and scaly skin.

The various figures now called dragons most likely have no single origin, but spontaneously came to be in several different cultures around the world, based loosely on the appearance of a snake and possibly fossilized dinosaur remains. Mythology about dragons appear in the traditions of virtually all peoples back to the beginning of time - though dragons appeared in various forms.

Among their earliest forms, dragons were associated with the Great Mother, the water god and the warrior sun god. In these capacities they had the power to be both beneficent and destructive and were all-powerful creatures in the universe. Because of these qualities, dragons assumed the roles taken by Osiris and Set in Egyptian mythology.

An don't forget the storm dragon Yahweh, and his closest buddies, the fiery flying serpents that surrounded his throne called the Seraphim, that the ancient priests and rabbis would translate to "Drakons". Oh, has his brother Enki, the dragon who made the garden of Eden, and who Christianity would recaste as the red dragon of revelation.

Are you saying an angel physically manifested itself, and spoke to you, and the best it could do was make you quit smoking? Whoa...

Yep, and at that time that was the best thing it could have done. It reset the course of my whole life, but more importantly allowed me to marry the girl I loved, who was reluctant to marry a smoker, because someone very dear to her had died from it. Also Angels aren't really like santa clause. You don't make a list of demands in return for having been a good boy.. As I said, several times over the years they have saved my life.

A few questons for DC:


Ok, im trying to piece this together from a few differnt post and threads I've read of yours and im trying to get a outlining theroy here...Sorry if i get some things wrong...

Theres one main god Eloim and two demi gods that our brothers and dragons named Yewhaw and Ahriman. The bible tells us that we are created in the image of our God, so that means Eloim is not a dragon but a humaniod figure? And, are all the angels/demons Dragons or are they completely different intities? if they are the same how do the Nephlim fit into the picture? I dont see how a dragon could have sex with a human and producing a giant or what ever they turn out to be. I kind of agree with all this because I have never pictured angels to be the "chubby things with wings" and the devil to be a red guy with horns and a pitch fork...Modern day Christianity is so lost from the truth that this might be plausible. You've supported this completely differnt outlook on Christainity with alot more evidence and support than a modern day Christain can even try to support something like the pre-tribulation rapture or Chirstmas for instance.

Stang,
Glad to see there are some people out there that can see this is what the Bible, the Ancient Sumerian Legends, and ancient legends all over the world are actually saying. Anu/Elohim is the creator and never called a dragon or that he has a human form. The bit about God creating us in his image must be speculative, for the Bible was finally written down over a thousand years after the Sumerian legends were written down, and many things were changed.

There are far more "dragon assistants" of the creator than the two best known from the bible. Every ancient Sumerian city state had one, the chinese mention them, the Maya had a feathered serpent/dragon Kuklakan, the Aztecs had Quetzalcoatl, and there is evidence other chief gods like Odin, Zeuss etc. may have originally been dragons too.

These "dragons" are called sons of elohim or seraphim/dragons and Yahweh is the one explicitly in charge of the hebrews. But the Bible mentions the ones in charge of other peoples, though later the Jews lumped Yahweh and Elohim together as the same god (which contradicts the Bible) and Christians now claim the rest of these "sons" are demons.

Why dragons? Nearly every ancient culture talks of these creatures teaching humanity agriculture and technologies, an made them their Gods. What's the sicence behind it? Imagine a creator of the universe. He can probably only spend a short amount of time on each inhabitable planet. Humans have only been here for 2 million years. Giant reptiles have been here for 150 million years. The creator could not wait around for people, so he "improved" some kind of prehisotric reptile to "shepherd" the human race, just as legends ALL OVER THE WORLD say. (Including the Bible though most Christians are too arrogant to accept such a thing). It is all explained in great detail in my upcoming book.

As for Nephilim, these creatures do not appear in the Sumerian legends. The Nephilm are man's distant memories of the neanderthals that bred wth their ancestors. The ones in Mesopotamia were finally drowned in a certain localized flood. Angels are simply long lived humans that serve the seraphim. Nowhere in the Bible do they have wings. On the contrary they are alway mistaken as humans Adam is not the first man in the original legends, and men before him didn't have eternal life.. Adam was simply offereed eternal life as an angel, but "his" dragon "God" talked him out of it. But the story changed after a 1000 years of oral tradition. Nor are angels they spirits, the bible says they must eat food to survive. Invisible spirit angels and demons are a pagan greek invention, to explain mental illness, among other things.

If this doesn't answer all your questions feel free to fire away, or wait for the book.

Thanks for the reply... I got a lot of the answers I was looking for in a 15 page post you had back in 2005 where you were debating some people. Very interesting theory that seems to have a lot of validity. When are you releasing this book, I'm defiantly interested in it, seems like its a long work in progress since you were referring to it in the post back in 2005.

I thought this was interesting... i know you don't take revelations as credible but...

13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power[a] is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries[b] or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

If these Angels are bound to be released later... than this is a plausible explanation to where some of the dragons have gone to, and supports your theory that the "monsters" such as Nessie could be dragons just bound in bodies of water, maybe strategical placed through out the world?... I just came across this and found it interesting since this new information I have been digesting from your new (to me) theories. I'm sure you have studied this and have more insight on this than I do...


Ezekiel 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

Another reference to dragons underwater

Like how there is a complete distinction from wild beast and dragons in Isaiah 13

22And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

And in the same chapter...

19And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Which if you are correct he will use dragons to bring down the Babylon empire...

You should try and be a guest on coast to coast am DC lol...

Seriously

what??

Its a popular radio show at night that talks about pretty much everything discussed on this forum...

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/

Stang,
The fire breathing monsters in Revelation that destroy one third of mankind are inspired by Zoroastrian writings just as is the whole thing about Satan being bound, cast into the abyss, released, final battle, cast into lake of fire, only John has changed the name of the dragon to Satan. In the Zoroastrian version it xi less realistic in that only one dragon destroys exactly the same amount of humanity, which is one third, but not as a god controlled creature, but part of the dualistic "forces of evil". If we accept the zoroastrian theology to be divinely inspired, as the acceptance of Revelation suggests, understand that these texts also state the God of the Jews (Yahweh) is also an evil dragon and brother to their Ahriman dragon. Most Christians (and obviously Jews) would not want to believe that, although both the original Sumerian legends as well as Jesus' own word to the pharisees seem to state this as well.

An interesting part of the dragon-creatures prophecy is that their riders are described as humans, and in truth, the real Biblical angels are also simply long lived humans without nonsensical wings, which are actually only in the description of heavenly dragons.

It is funny how the Fundamentalists will insist every word of the Bible is true, insist Noah put all the worlds' animals on the Ark and believe the flood covered the whole earth, etc. but when it comes to this prophecy in Revelation, they ignore the fact that the Bible says these 200 million creatures are fire breathing, snake tailed, sharp toothed monsters, and insist this must be the "Chinese Army" though conveniently ignore the questions this would raise.

The other problem with the dragons in the Bible is the same word Tannin can have different meanings for it essentially menas "large reptile". In the casee of Pharaoh, it probably refers to a crocodile, becasue this is so symbolic of Egypt, but in Psalms where the Tanin "sing praises to God", they are probably the same "true" dragons with wings called the Seraphim (fiery winged serpents) who also sing praises to God in Isaiah. This is why this is so confusing. Dragons/Tannin can be the highest heavenly creatures OR the symbol of Egypt/pharoah because the same word is used for "crocodile" and "Seraph/heavenly dragon". The word also apparently means "dinosaurs" for in the Elohim creaton they appear in the same epoch as birds, which are after the epoch of fish, and before the epoch of mammals, which is quite an extradordinary bow to evolution and knowledge of the scientific record of life on earth, though fundamentalist ignore this and claim this all happened in six literal days, only six thousand years ago. It would seem then that tannin is essential a usually large "reptile", which can be a natural crocodile or a winged heavenly "dragon". Some bible dictionaries rather absurdly state the word can also mean "whales".

For centuries however, the Church maintained that God controlled huge dragons that would be loosed on mankind on judgement day to devour the wicked. Besides vague suggestions of this in the bible there were other Christian texts not in the final bible of today describe these dragons being in heaven, but also biblical accounts refer to them dwelling in the sea. One interesting thing though is the fact that 200 million "dragons" would be a very excessive amount of heavenly monsters to destroy the third "wickedest" part of the human race in the time of St. John, but in our time of 6 billion humans, it probably wouldn't be enough!

But yes, other people have mentioned Coast to Coast, and I will, but will finish the book first and send them a copy. It definately will be out this year. I am glad I didn't rush it now and release it sooner, for these discussions have brought up important points I did not address earlier. And this is why I am here. I hope people will find gaps and contradictions, but for the most part they have not. Multiple theologies from around the world and since the dawn of recoreded history support the existence of these dragons. It is perhaps the only true, recurring thread that binds all of humanities belief systems, though modern Christianity has tried hard to divorce itself from this universal thread.

Very interesting DC, I enjoy reading your theory on this matter because it does make sense. Based on the ancient texts and how virtually every civilization has a reference to some sort of alien, dragon, monster, etc. seems to put things into a different perspective. Now this book of yours, is it going to be actually published and written, or is it going to be an e-book, or what is it going to be?

What do you think the reasoning for shunning the idea of dragons in modern times? Its like... I want to talk and share what im learning here to other people but i feel like people, my friends and such, will find the idea absurd and think im crazy so im prolly not going to bring this up in a causal converstion. Catch where im going with this? Its like the more you learn the truth about the bible the more crazy society makes you seem. For example (one of the many I have) I will not celebrate Christmas due to the obvious pagan roots established by the Romans, but I am not the so called "norm" even though its blatent that Christmas has no ties to Bible retoric or teachings... I guess this is one of many reasons why the Bible states the whole world will be decived.

It will be a real book of ovr 500 pages and many illustrations of rare dragon images, many associated with Christinity that have largely been repressed.

All the main book stores will have access, but cannot say how many will order it.

It will also be avalable as an Ebook.

Thanks for the interest
DC

Dragons are so popular in human culture for all of these centuries that so much nonsense has been written about them so they are now trivialized and not taken seriously, even though virtually every culture has believed in their existence, and they are still the only plausible explanation for the many sightings of reptilian monsters that despite being seen so many times (like Nessie) never can be caught or cornered because they are not "mere dumb animal". But don't worry about what your friends think. There are many great scientists that believe there is "more" to life on earth than just an accidental mixture of chemicals.