The roots of some pagan practices. I must warn there is a graphic image in the first site.


http://www.forerunner.com/champion/X0040_M...f_Innocenc.html

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Rel...ove_exposed.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

how odd that a religion which promotes human sacrifice to forgive sins is propagandizing against paganism. Pagans, unlike Christians, believe that life is sacred.

I did not look at the sites because I prefer to learn things form an unbiased view point that is neutal rather than one where the outcome is already decided before it has even begun. Pagans aren't out to "get everyone". Gideon is right, they believe in the sacredness of life ,and those who don't, fall under a different category than Pagan ,IMHO.

Yes I guess all those babies that were and still are sacrificed are sacrificed for a sacred cause. How sacred.

Christianity does not promote human sacrifice.

Did you read the links?

OK I will remember that and properly discount anything that an atheist shares from an atheist site. Thanks for showing that you will not even look at or discuss anything that doesn't agree with you. Hmm.. so they weren't out to get all the babies they sacrificed to their gods? That's interesting insight. Could you expand on that?


Moloch in medieval texts
Like some other gods and demons found in the Bible, Moloch appears as part of medieval demonology, as a Prince of Hell. This Moloch finds particular pleasure in making mothers weep; for he specialises in stealing their children. According to some 16th century demonologists Moloch's power is stronger in October. It is likely that the motif of stealing children was inspired by the traditional understanding that babies were sacrificed to Moloch.

The ancients would heat this idol up with fire until it was glowing, then they would take their newborn babies, place them on the arms of the idol, and watch them burn to death.[citation needed]




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch


[edit] Moloch in Milton's Paradise Lost
In Milton's Paradise Lost, Moloch is one of the greatest warriors of the rebel angels, vengeful and militant,

"besmeared with blood
Of human sacrifice, and parents' tears."
He is listed among the chief of Satan's angels in Book I, and is given a speech at the parliament of Hell in Book 2:43 - 105, where he argues for immediate warfare against God. He later becomes revered as a pagan god on Earth.


http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopol...20Owl%20Worship

Heather, how dare you post an article from a Christian site!?

We're going to have to give you 50 lashes now. Don't you know Christians lie! Any article that comes froma Christian site is biased. Biased is a nice way to say "full of lies"

i read the information, and it was just about the most biased propaganda i have ever seen.


then, you don't believe Jesus was sacrificed for your sins?

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp...0&dict=CALD

Like I said, Christianity does not promote human sacrifice. Jesus Christ: Sacrificed Himself, and: Was God in human form.

I see you have nothing to say about the countless babies sacrificed to pagan gods as regular practice, just attacking Christianity as per your usual. I see you also have nothing to say about the current ties beteen the abortion industry and modern Wicca. Gee thanks for the fresh input. That was unbiased. I guess anyone who has an opinion or a belief is biased, huh what do you know. I guess we all should log off and go to bed now, none of us is fit for debate.

thus a human sacrifice. besides, he wasn't a god.

I see you have nothing but the usual ad hominem attack, and xian websites. I read your articles. they were lies. there are no pagan groups incouraging abortions. most pagans are even more anti-abortion than christians. have you even ever met a pagan? I know many, and none are pro-abortion.

What out there isn't considered biased?



Jesus was sent here for the sole purpose of sacrificing himself, & all in the name of saving US ALL from an eternal death.

I don't know why Christians would dare criticize the past of any other religion. Christianity has a horrific past and its roots are stained with blood. And before the whole Jesus thing, the Bible commends animal sacrifice to atone for one's sins. Jesus was just kind of the super-animal. Sacrifice to atone for sins is ridiculous. Any God that is said to require sacrifice (IE Yahweh in this case) is ridiculous.

I was referring only to the here and now , not what happened years ago. There are alot of sick people that do things that are wrong. I apologize for not looking at the sites that you took the time to post. It is hard to have a discussion if you do not understand the context. I was referring to modern pagans that I have met who take it to heart when things put their religion in a harsh light.. And BTW, I am catholic and get the whole you are not a christian thing all the time, so I tend to try to stay on the fence when it comes to religions being discussed. However, this will be the last time I enter a conversation about it. Thanks for the learning experience, I will sit back now and reflect. Blessings

"You practice your religion and let me practice mine."

"My religion is a holy ritual child sacrifice."

Patricia Baird-Windle,
Founder and owner of Aware Woman Center for Choice

* On August 4, 1992, two employees of Aware Woman abortion clinic, Veronica Jordan and Rebecca Morris, registered a non-profit religious corporation known as the Wiccan Religious Cooperative of Florida (WRCF). The stated purpose of the WRCF is to provide an umbrella organization for witch covens throughout the state of Florida. The incorporation papers list two abortion clinic employees as directors of the Wiccan organization.

* Shortly after the Wiccan Religious Cooperative of Florida was founded, Carol Ebbing, another Aware Woman abortion clinic employee ordered this book entitled: The Sacrament of Abortion.

* The book, authored by a Ginnette Paris, a witch in France, presents abortion as "a sacred act." Paris calls abortion: "a sacrifice to Artemis, who refuses to give life if the gift is not pure" (that is innocent or preborn life).

You didn't read it, Gideon.

I didn't know Wikepedia was Christian

Is this topic not criticizing the roots of Paganism?

The first site is an Anti-Abortion site.

The second site says our Presidents are Satan Worshipers.

The third site is a Wikepedia definition of Lilith.

ANd the point of all those sites: I haven't the foggiest.

I couldn't tell you, but I know the roots of Christianity get attacked all the time.

And with good reason. I'm saying no Christian is in the position to talk about how another religion had horrible foundations, because Christianity was likely the worst of them all. I don't think there's many a Christian who wishes they could live in the dark ages when godlessness got your face burnt off clean (or a wonderful selection of other punishments, such as your throat or genitalia being ripped open from the inside, or being sawed in half while hung upside down to keep blood flowing to the brain and prevent loss of consciousness as long as possible.)

Sorry, but God always has and still does, allow abhorrent cultures to experience the consequences of their actions, as well as people who wish to follow practices that result in being seperated from God. God punishing individuals and cultures that practice following evil, is not something in the closet of a Christian that we are embarassed of, it is a fact of life.

Not the same as following gods (demons) that call for baby sacrifice. So how is it holding life sacred to practice sacrifice to a demon?

And why the uproar? Christianity is picked apart and called evil daily here, I see no issue whatsoever with doing the same thing to a religion that worships demons.

Yea, Well, your descriptions there does sound as brutally evil as the suffering given to that MOLOCH "Pagan god."

That's not a very good excuse until you can prove God exists. And these types of torture lasted for hundreds of years. Looks like God is pretty slow, eh? Or maybe he just didn't mind offing a few heathens before stopping it?

I've never met a pagan who wants to kill babies.

And the uproar is because it's hypocrisy. You can't just say that pagans are horrible because of these things, when your own holy book says to murder minor offenders (The new testament is NOT an excuse), and your religion's history is one of utter violence and bloodshed.

I'm certainly not justifying Christianity's wrongs.. But, what religion has never caused grief, at some point, somewhere, somehow?

Oh there are some. Buddhism has quite a clean slate compared to the main ones as an example.

The religions that have holy books seem to be the ones that have the more murky pasts.

And I'm saying that there's no sense in trying to promote one's religion by pointing out faults of another religion that their religion has as well.

yes, I thought that was the intent .
Paganism, just like christianity has evolved over time and we also must evolve and stop the finger pointing at each other. Can we really help everything that people have done in the past in any religion?
I am rather sad that criticism is thrown around so lightly. Have we all really learned nothing from one anothers faiths? I may be mistaken but aren't pagans the main leaders of the whole "keep our earth clean" thing?Is that recognized?
I hold to my belief, people who do these things such as sacrifice are not what I consider a pagan. Also, pagans, witches and wiccans are not necessarily the same thing. There are actually Christo-Pagans who celebrate Christ and the Trinity in their rituals along with their Goddess. blessings.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Moloch

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/b/baphomet.html

I'm sorry to leave the discussion at this point but I have to get up early. I will return tomorrow and look forward to discussion with you all.

I'd also like to add to this topic.. that Pagan beliefs are more of a cloudy thing. There's no real "pagan Bible", and I would bet that many Pagans have no idea what their beliefs are supposed to be.

Other religions have horrible foundations and current practices. I can say that because despite what others may have done in the name of Christianity or God, I have done none of those things nor did I agree with them. As to what God did or did not do, since He was also the grantor of life, ALL life His record still runs higher in the lives given side of the board than the lives taken away side.

Just because there are few records of the atrocious acts that pagans may or may not have visited on those who disagree with them doesn't mean they didn't engage in them since it seems to b part of the human condition and not an attribute solely available to Christianity. But hey why do you care, we're talking about biased information here.

list a single, non-christian source that confirms your fascist anti-pagan hate literature. thanks for another ad hominem.
the lilith article didn't mention pagan abortion supporters. lilith is an old jewish legend.

are you going to tell us next that jews sacrifice christian babies to make matzoh?

You're too happy to accept the translations of Man, and his own interpretation of Gods laws & use those very translations to criticize God, but then you deny God's existence all together...?
I am a CHRISTian based ON THE NEW TESTAMENT! I follow Christ who is the inspiration in the NEW TESTAMENT.. it's just as much apart of our bible, as the OT.
The new testament is not an excuse it's a solid reason too, it contradicts everything that you say otherwise... conveniently, you would want it ignored, why?

Then don't accuse pagans who don't support these practices. I've never heard of a single case of a pagan supporting the ritualistic or otherwise killing of babies, so it seems they don't support those acts as a whole either. Although I have heard of multiple cases of Christians killing babies because "God told them to do it" ..

I'm not criticizing God, as you said, I don't believe such a being exists. I'm accusing the Christian belief of God, by pointing out the lack of evidence that would seem to contradict what they are saying.

And CHRISTianity is based on both the old testament and the new, the old which YOU conveniently ignore, because it's the barbaric one. I don't ignore the new testament at all. There is confirmation in the new testament of the old testament laws (that means public stoning too) as laws that should be followed by God's people. The new testament never says the old testament no longer applies, it only acknowledges it and confirms it.

Here's some new testament fun for you, I'm not ignoring it at all.

Hebrews 10:28-29
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Matthew 5:17-22
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

(This CLEARLY states the laws are to remain in effect. Anyone who says "fulfill" means Jesus didn't want you to follow the laws anymore is obviously ignoring the rest of the passage.)

"Our culture needs new rituals as well as laws to restore abortion to its sacred dimension, which is both terrible and necessary." (p. 92)

"Abortion is a sacrifice to Artemis. Abortion as a sacrament for the gift of life to remain pure." (p. 107)


Ginette Paris, "The Sacrament of Abortion"

http://www.forerunner.com/champion/X0004_P..._Sacrament.html

http://www.priestsforlife.org/columns/colu...tofabortion.htm




Ginette Paris, "Pagan Meditations"

http://www.online.pacifica.edu/ginettepari...aganMeditations


Artemis

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/artemis.html

Had you looked at one of the other sites you would have seen the connection. I am not going to do it for you. You didn't want to read, that's fine.

http://www.gargaro.com/911.html

A 911 call made from the Aware Woman clinic, owned by the woman noted in post #13.

what is your agenda, texasheather?

botched abortions? abortions in general?

botched medical services of any kind are not good news, but they are a reality. Medical services need to work to minimize them, indeed. Guess what? Doctors go out of their way to cover up medical errors. Are you enraged?

Her agenda Hyper, like many christians, is to villify that which is different from her own beliefs.

While she ( and others like her) will quote one or two ( or even 3! ) "pagans" and claim that they represent all pagans, she will vociferously deny that people like the WBC represent all christians.

She will quote historical items like the "Moloch" worshippers, and point an accusatory finger at modern pagans, en masse, but then claim you cannot use the old testament to paint modern christians with the tarred brush of primitive superstition. Or to hold modern christians accountable for the actions of past christians.


Just another example of why the name of this forum should be changed to "Christians are right, everyone else is dammed to hell".

Yep. Cat's out of the bag. We pagans are nothing but baby eating human sacrificing oddballs.

Yeha ah.. don't chastize pagan's roots like this, especialy when christianity roots are just as bloody. Humans as a whole are pretty damned violent. The only difference is.. Pagans arn't out there promoting genocide and other random acts of violence against other humans anymore. Oh sure you can link me the same tired old crap about "black magic" and whatever else... that's usually just kiddies trying to be "cool" or adults who haven't a damned clue.. and the media gets all over it like Jerry Falwell did a bucket of fried chicken.

Bottom line... we pagans know our roots... and grew above them. We learned from the bloody tribal ways of the past.


Hmn.. can't say that about Christianity though.. there are still large sects outside of the US (aside the fanatics at Jesus camp and the like) That kill other people due to religious things.

Now excuse me, I've a baby sammich to make.

There are several problems with your logic.

First you are taking information predominantly from biased sites. (yes having an opinion or belief does tend to make a person biased in favor of that belief or against beliefs which do not mesh with their own)

The second being that you are looking at historical religious practices and linking them with a religion whose present day practitioners may or may not even worship the deities in question. (This may be a bit of a stretch since much of modern paganism is an amalgamation of practices from many different pan-theistic religions thrown together to fill in gaps due to suppression)

The third problem is that you sited Wikipedia as a source, although it is a very nice place to start looking for information it is by no means a site that is without bias since its entries are done by average people, yes they do attempt to keep it as accurate as possible but there is always a possibility of inaccuracies there due to this fact. (If you were to try to use wikipedia as a source in a school setting your teacher or professor would not accept it.)

The last two problems are that you appear to be drawing the conclusion that since some pagans in Florida work at an abortion clinic and believe as they do (along with some people from Circle magazine) that they are representative of the religion as a whole. This is simply not possible in a religion that has no real central figure or definitive organization (it may be true of some sects but I don't know of any off of the top of my head). You also seem to be assuming that the books you listed speak for all pagans. Based off of that assumption if I were to write an anti abortion pagan book then you could say that all pagans were anti abortion which they are obviously not just as all Christians are not anti abortion.

Not that I am an expert on the Hindu pantheon but you might like to know that Kali is just one of the forms of a mother goddess. I have never seen images of her with fetus earrings but I would guess that if she were to wear them that her role as a mother may have something to do with it.
By the way if you would like some more information on Kali check here (and yes college professors would accept this site in a citation page)
http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa051202a.htm

You know it's funny, because I don't see any of you call it an agenda when someone criticizes Christianity. No, then it's called healthy skepticism and questioning what you are told. So, since it is healthy to question things, I am exploring something and have found information about it that I find fascinating. The same thing yall do when there' something about Christianity that you don't like.

All of you seem to think that Christians (and everyone) should criticize Christianity and constanly "question," yet when anything else is questioned it's not OK? Why is that? You might want to ask yourselves.

I'm not done tying it all together, I have a lot of stuff and only so much time, real life keeps me from putting it all together with a neat little bow on it. I will be at this for a couple days, so if you don't like it no one is forcing you to read it.

If you've got an opinion to add, or are willing to have conversation that's fine but constantly jumping in to ask me what my agenda is, is harassment and we all know it. My agenda is to look at an aspect of something that I think is overlooked in the popular culture, and to look at the history of a particular aspect.

it says that there is a picture of an owl on the one dollar bill, which represents lilith. if you like, mail me all your evil satanic lilithic one dollar bills. your websites are the products of the same type of sick minds that accused the jews of baking matzoh with blood of christian children. there is no difference.
Hate is hate, whether in the middle ages or now.

I guess you didn't read past the first line of my post or you would have answered what it is that really enraged you about that botched abortion link - the issue with the fact that people try to cover their mistakes, or that an abortion was being performed. Anyway, since you have the dubious honour of being the first person I have just asked "what is your agenda?" here on UM, making claims of constantly jumping in to ask such things is rather spurious.

Yup very healthy to ask questions about everything....the weirder the question the better in my opinion but I think I must have missed your question somehow...
So what is your question?

Why do origins matter? What is now is now. Pagans of today are NOTHING like pagans of ancient lore...as Christians today are NOTHING like Christians of the NT.

It is soooo easy to be a Christian in America...at least now...but when it is a matter of The Lions vs Your Faith...different story...so what do origins have to do with the present practices?

Strangly, sometime i agree whit Joc.

Modern paganism its just a recolection of a multitude of ancient religions. Some of this religions in the far past, like a lot of other religions, have human sacrifice has a ritual component. This mean that is also part of the new version? I dont think soo.
Heather, you are beginning to sound like the 9/11 conspiracy fanatics, throwing totally biased adn unconected weblinks to connect abortion, pagans, amber grove (or something like that) and the old jewish/mesopotamian goodes/demoness.
Grow up, and stop the whinning because your religion is loosing power among the population of your area.

Hey back off there IAMS..enough already

It's getting old real fast, BM. Any information that comes from a Christian site is automatically a lie (biased to be nice) and therefore should not be read, but yet if a Christian doesn't read the articles linked to a post from non-Christian sites (which automatically means they are not lies) then they are criticized and harassed for not reading the articles.

For "tolerant" people there's very little tolerance expended on Christians.

Yea but you know fine well it was just ME that ever said about posting from christian web pages, and I recall you having a crack at me for saying so....


To top this whole thing os..what is this topic about?? we look at the links and are supposed to talk about what?? im serious

Further more - who wants to look at stuff about abortion?? wtf??

No, I didn't say this because of you, BM if it had been just you, we could have talked about it and settled it, this is a statement that keeps popping up in different threads.

To quote Fat B a s t a r d from the Austin Powers series....

"Baby. The other, other white meat."

But thats just GID..he always says something negative about christians/christianity.......he has been doing it for as long as I can remember......in time you wont even notice it..cuz you will be well used to it by now

I figured you were getting at me, only because it was me that had said it before a few times..and you did keep me going about it..so any wonder I thought it were me lol

remember when i then posted a new thread about christianity and used a non christian web link to keep you going?? lol well at the time we had a laugh about it

Stop and think why alot of christian sites are tossed off.

When alot of them are made for fearmongering against other faiths that are not christain, pander to saying absolute lies about other faiths.. Going all apecrazy that EverQuest, Harry Potter, DnD, and other assorted things because they think that it'll lead those tast..er.. precious, yeah precious children to the "evil satanic dark side!!" >.> Not tomention the metric ton of false and made up information about paganism in general. The most common is that we worship the abrahamic satan deity. But hey, you believe all that tripe, right Iams? Sure you do... or you wouldn't be having aproblem with these oh so informative christian sites being waved off as being INCREDIBLY biased.

And pretty much all the sites TG posted are like that.

Except being all upset that pagans work at an abortion center. That made me laugh. Especialy with the baby eating thing.
Oooo those damned pagans! How dare they get a job somewhere like that! How dare they help rape victems and women who need that kind of help! Bad bad of them. Meanwhile a select (note the word SELECT) few "good christians" are/were bombing the clinics and shooting the doctors. So yeah, pointing fingers at the pagans who work at the clinics murdering poor delic.. dammit! Innocent! I ment innocent... anyways.. murdering those poor fetuses... while a select few christians were doing their own murdering and collateral damage is kinda hypicritical... well not kinda, it is.


What I do find funny is that on these boards lately... The Athiests "pick on the poor abused christians" and these "poor abused christians" get all complany and whiney... then for some weird reason try to bash the pagan faiths in retaliation. Yeah, I wonder why the pagans here get snarky towards a few of ya out there. Oh poor me... the mean and evil christains are picking on my faith! Whoa is me... *sighs* I guess I'll make a huge post complaining about it... then bash those Buddhists! (sarcasm by the way...)