Am I reading you incorrectly? Do you think cultural identity is "overrated" to the point that you should not care about it?

The effects of a group of people having their culture stripped from them is devistating. Most people are not what we could call independently self-aware. Identity is drawn from the group. Undercut that group indentiy, you undercut the individual identity.

There will always be cultural identity, I just say any specific cultural identity is overrated. I don't see holding onto a culture that hinders people from becoming a better society as being a good thing.

Another reason this site is becoming nothing more than a platform for the oh so moral christians. These people who seem to think that this is some contest. And this is not the first time I have seen a christians on these boards refer to anyone who thinks differently as "morons", "idiots" or worse.

Christians, in the guise of asking about other religions simply for the purpose of proselytizing their religion, or posting very biased articles about any number of subjects. While totally unbiased sources are few and far between, and given the fact that simply having an opinion one way or the other is biased, an effort should be made to post more neutral sourcing.

Not that I expect anyone in authority here to say anything to the vitriolic postings of these pro religion members, but watch the hammer fall if someone else called their faith the same terms.


And as for Wikpedia as a source? In a word it sucks. Recently there was an article regarding a contributor to the site who claimed to be a professor of religious studies who fought to have entries changed to a pro religious stance. Turns out he was a college drop out. I will locate the article and post a link.



Found it:




The rest of the article is found here:
Times Online

I am not certian as to what you mean. What exactly is a specific cultural identity? Do you mean a specific culture, like the Haida, or do you mean a specific cultural icon or practice? If the latter, are you suggesting assimilation through the systemic removal of "subcultural uniquenss" is the path to harmony amungst humans (one tribe - one culture).

I suggest that people shouldn't care so much about their own culture, that's all. "Insert _here pride" is overrated.

I notice none of those Christian sites had their sources cited, which makes them unreliable. Which is why people say Christians are ignorant about history. Well I have to go and take the cover off the baby in the roaster so it will brown.

fair enough. I can agee with that, especially when such pride has nothing to do with them other than genetics.

Actually, I consider it laughable when a person starts talking about the great achievements of "their" heritage when their this is all they are connecting with. However, when a people are still living day-to-day within their cultural identity it is very valuable (it is a double edged sword - it also makes warring more easily initiated => see interagroup bonding and its correlation to intergroup fighting)

God didn't have to do anything. God sent his only son here in order to save us from our own wrong doings. God doesn't force anyone to commit sin, that choice is given to us and we choose to commit those sins. Because we humans choose to act like hellions, God has given us the opportunity for repentence thru his son, Jesus Christ. God has allowed us to be hellions, but also be forgiven for our hellish acts....

so asking for repentance is enough? As in "a sinning i will go, a sinning i will go. bring on the wine, women, and debauchery. I will stop by the church in the morining to settle the bill."?

Not necessarily. We could ask all day long and it doesn't make a difference if our hearts are not sincere in its' repentence. I don't personally believe in the once saved always saved logic either..because of this fact. We must be sincere.

I think only those who seek true forgiveness would be the one's forgiven. I hold that same belief for how to deal with criminals on earth. Those who are actually sorry for what they've done and are reformed, should be released from prison. Of course, since we're human and not God, we can be deceived by those who are not actually sorry for what they've done.

A God would be able to see through the deception of the man.

A sincere repentence would include the conviction in our hearts to avoid those wrongs that have been committed and forgiven for...

Only God knows our heart's thoughts and intentions.

JM, I can see where you are coming from here, but really, many of these people feel compelled to defend their beliefs only because they are so regularly attacked or mocked. Why are so many compelled to post daily new threads about how stupid, or wrong, or morally and socially backward people of faith are? Yet one topic pops up about potentially immoral <insert other belief set here> and out come the big guns.

I have seen as many non-Christians belittle and mock believers as you have seen believers name call non-believers. I don't think that can be denied. And I think starting a thread that is PATENTLY anti-Christian is as vitriolic as anything you may have seen here.

And yes, Wiki is as unreliable as many other sources. Unfortunately, we can't vette (sp) everyones sources. It pays to approach any source with a little caution.

This thread is a perfect example of something I've been saying for years.

I started a thread about Pagan problems a while back. It was pretty much ignored. But how "DARE" a Christian say anything about anything other than Christianity and only then to say how sorry they were for the problems of it.

Your reactions are so utterly predictable that its LAUGHABLE. And you know what sounds out loud and clear? FEAR.

You've gotten so comfortable trashing Christianity rather than truly examining your OWN belief systems that you want to pretend that there is nothing bad any Pagan or Wiccan could do.

Andrea Yates drowned her kids and the story blamed it on her church even though the woman was totally insane.

Two kids kill their parents for part of a Pagan ritual and people blame the religion.

So what. Its the media and that's what media does. It likes to sensationalize everything.

I can't believe how some of you acted in this thread.

What utterly disgusting behavior from people in a thread supposedly debating Spirituality and Skepticism.

TOTAL Hypocrites as usual.



Now OT Heather, How do you explain Lillith being so corrupted if God made her the same way as Adam? Does that mean that God messed up big time?

I started a thread about Pagans too...waaaaaayyyy back before this Spirituality Forum even existed...because of the onslaught of Christian Bashing, I started several threads simultaneously...Bashing Wicca, Bashing Paganism, Bashing Islam, Bashing this religion and that religion...all to make the point that it is so ridiculous to criticize and 'bash' another persons belief system.

If a person is 'secure' in their belief system then it should not be a big deal to accept someone else's. It seems a bit strange that someone who is secure in their faith would feel the need to trash another faith.

And yet... I really don't see pagans making threads bashing christianity... yet... here we see athiests making threads bashing christianity, and what happens in return? Pagans being bashed by the christians to "make a point".

You know what.. no.. if you want to make you bloody precious points.. then effin bash the athiests... untill then, you just look like bloody hipocrists.

You wanna know why I've been pissy and apathetic and just plain old seething mad at times? This is why. ENOUGH is ENOUGH.

Athiests, yeah we get it.. christianity is flawed. It's done to death, leave them alone.

Christians, you got an issue with being targeted and picked on? Suck it up, or retaliate by sticking up for yourselves agains the athiests... leave the pagans alone. You don't go and kick someone else when another person kicked you. Yeah, some pagans bash you.. but stop and think... THIS THREAD IS WHY YOU GET PAGAN HOSTILITY!!

Pagans, yes I know.. you're the whipping pony. I'm sorry... just defend yourselves to the best of your abilities.

As for myself.. time to show what apathy is..

I just bloody don't care anymore.

Number one, thanks for this:
I appreciate the candor. And thanks for this too, I'm sure some of our Christians here nearly wept when reading this:

Now, on to Paganism...
Personally I could care less what you call yourself, or what others call you. Keep in mind though, some one is going to call you something eventually, and you'd better be ready when the labeling starts. Because ALL people of ANY faith get it eventually. So rather than hide under a rock, only to crawl out in another thousand years as they have in the past, Pagans/Wiccans/Whateverans had better join the SANE people that believe in a greater power than themselves, and fight for their right to BELIEVE. Now is the time to do it, since no one BURNS witches, or FEEDS Christians to lions in the "civilized" world. Keep up with your apathy routine, and your secularist friends will make YOUR beliefs illegal as soon as they get done with Christianity. Christians are NO LESS guilty. You better lose that "thou shalt not suffer a witch" BS, and realize that FAITH has more in common with NOTHING.

Wicca, Paganism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Scientology, Deism, Atheism.
One of these things is NOT like the others. Like the Sesame Street song. Can you guess which one is the only one that has NOTHING in common with the others? Which one freely mocks ALL the others, and openly has NO respect for any of the others.


Edited for this: I re read jocs post. This made me think: Does this apply to atheists too? If so (which I think it does though they would argue I think) that explains a lot.

Trust me...I left no stone unturned.


You took the words right out of my mouth! Literally! Imagine how you might feel if every single thread in the Religion Forum was bashing Pagans?

Which is why 'way back when' I created simultaneous threads and got in 'huge' trouble for it...although I do believe everyone (well, most everyone) recognized the point I was trying to make. But that was a long time ago, so...for the record...I will make the point one more time:

Wiccans don't like to have their belief system trashed by Christians.
Christians don't like to have their belief system trashed by Atheists.
Atheists don't like to have other's religion shoved down their throats.
Pagans don't like to have their belief system trashed by Christians or Atheists or anyone else.
Nor do Muslims...Deists...the list goes on and on.
No One likes to hear someone else tear down their faith. Political Ideologies are just that...but personal faith is, well...personal. It isn't nice to bad mouth someone else's mother...and it isn't nice to bad mouth someone else's beliefs.

In short: To create a thread for the sole purpose of trashing the belief system of someone else...someone you don't even know...is arrogant, childish, and just plain old MEAN! And there is no 'point' to be made with this thread...it is just an attempt to tear down a belief system.

Atheists don't have to believe in God...but Christians, and everyone else should respect their right to Non-Belief. All Belief Systems are flawed. When are we going to stop killing and arguing and hating over flawed belief systems? Never, that's when. Some of us get it...and some of us will never, ever get it.

I don't know the answer... and I feel stoopit.

LOL

Me too!


Well Silver Cougar I can understand why you are upset if that's how you see it. Pagans being the whipping boy for retaliation for Christian bashing makes a lot of sense.

Seriously that does explain why you are upset.

But what I'm curious about is why you don't get upset the same way when ANYONE makes a thread bashing ANY religion. Honestly it seems like its ok to day after day start new threads asking Christians to defend or explain their beliefs.

I have a lot of problems with religion in general but it is completely over the top the way Christians are constantly bashed.

And I don't understand why people do this.

I agree ENOUGH is ENOUGH

Umm...Atheism.
I thought it was obvious, as it has no "higher power" ideals, and is the one that is patently opposed to any and all ideals espoused by all the others.

I have.. and got slammed by people who i won't name... for bashing christians.

So yeah... damned if you do and damned if you don't.

AND to add in.. I never see *YOU* stick up for anyone else but the christians.. Even though they bash the athiests, like you claim to be.. or the muslims, like you claim to be raising your sons. Or even when they pash pagans for no damned reason other then they think we're evil beings that need to burn in hell.

And Egg's.. your pagan triad makes no sence. It's like you're trying to tell pagans to become christians, and not to worry.. believe in the abrahamic god and all will be well. Phht Bull. And if it's not... Welp.. time to explain it for the angry ol werecougar to understand.

Tcha.

With all due respect True...I took some time out to read up on one of the links posted, just like I would pick up a book and read it..I gave my thoughts on what the author had written..just like I would give my views on books I have read in the past.

I made it very clear I wasnt having a bash at christianity...only getting at the author of that site...he could have been a devil worshiper for all I cared...I was still getting at the artical he posted...not christianity as a whole

Hope you understand

Actually not at all..can you point out where I seem to be implying that, so I can correct myself? I certainly don't want ANYONE to think I am trying to convert them from or to any thing. As I have pointed out, as long as you are not harming anyone (even yourself I hope) I don't care what you believe. What tirade (I think that's what you meant) are you talking about? The links I posted?

OK, I reread MY OWN post and I think I know what you mean.

You are most mistaken Mon frer. (My friend in really bad French!)

What I am implying is, people of all and ANY faith, be it in God, Allah, Jesus, Mother Earth, The Great Pumpkin...ANY faith...should recognize that they have more in common with each other than with those who believe in NOTHING.

In a democracy where freedom of speech AND religion is guaranteed is the place to recognize that, and start defending EACH OTHER.

I don't want Pagans to change WHO or WHAT they worship or believe in. I want them to fight for the rights of all people to believe in SOMETHING. Does that make any more sense? I'm not trying to be redundant, just clear.

I don't actually see how that's true. That's why I didn't get the answer to that question you posted... it really wasn't obvious to me.



Why do we have to fight for the right to believe? Who's preventing us from believing what we do? Am I missing something?

Apparently you aren't paying attention. Why don't you ask KRATOS if I stick up for Islam? I almost got suspended in this thread several times.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=85050

Maybe the reason its so noticeable that I defend Christians is because it happens EVERY SINGLE DAY several times a day on this Forum whereas other groups don't get swamped for their beliefs. So the fact that it seems like I only defend Christians is actually more evidence that Christians are slammed simply for what they believe. Its absolutely vile and ugly and I can't even believe that you defend it.

You attacked Texas for being a Christian posting this stuff, not simply for posting this stuff. Nearly every one of you mentioned her religion.

I have NEVER seen another persons religious beliefs brought up when they start a thread. M

So then truethat, if I posted information about Islam from an atheistic website that contained erroneous and slanderous information, including disproven myths for the sole purpose of saying "Atheism is better than Islam", you wouldn't bring up the point that my atheist background plays into the agenda?

>moment of raptured awe as I stare at truethat<


Sorry, but I just never meet a perfect person before.................

Please show me where Texas said "Christianity is better than Paganism????" Please....I'm waiting.....

Answer my question. I was refering to YOUR statements from post #127 regarding others religious background being brought up.


But to respond to your query, EVERY friggin thread is aimed at taking potshots at somebodies religion. Heathers is no flippin' exception. She is comparing ancient pagan groups to modern day ones and tarring them with the "sins" of the ancients. Her well known stance as a christian, tends to make one think she is claiming the religious & moral highground.

Every one here has an agenda (yes, including myself) and there is quite a long list of people who seem determined to destroy other peoples beliefs.


But, as another poster said:


I really don't give a damn anymore.

No I wouldn't. In fact if you read the thread that I posted for Silver Cougar you will see that I quite often accused Kratos of having an agenda of hate towards the Muslims but I never brought up his religious beliefs.

Apparently you don't paying attention either.

I'm not attacking Heather for being christian. I never attack anyone for being christian. But this is just another runmill case of you simply seeing what you want.

Heather blatently attacked paganism first. No rhym no reason. Sure she /says/ it's because she's tired of christianity being attacked. But she's just being a bloody hypocrit for attacking my faith because her's is attacked by athiests. There is *NO* logic in this. Just because A kicks B, that dosn't mean the logical thing to do is for B to kick C. Especialy since B has a long standing history of attacking C, and C will fight back. Which leaves us to B whining like little infants wondering why they're so bloody "pursicuted".

And since you pointed your miniscule little logic towards me, you know damned well that I don't attack people for being christian. I defend/attack the individual that slanders my faith.

I've *ALWAYS* stated that anyone can worship whatever their little hearts desire. Or not worship. They can be Athiest, Christians, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, or worshipper of Frufru the purple dancing slug for alls I give a damned about. But the moment someone starts bashing me or my faith, or other pagans... all bets are bloody off, and it's that individual that gets me ire and temper.

And if they're going to stand there and say "PAGANS ARE BABY EATING, HUMAN SACRIFICING HEATHENS!!" I'm going to hold a mirror to their face and tell them their faith ain't no better.


But, this is probaly going in one ear and out the other.. because like always, True.. you're just going to boil it down to "SC don't like christians! PURSICUTER!!" So realy.. whatever. I've bloody done with this thread.

Actually I don't think that is what Heather was saying. I think she had some other point to make but shame on her she didn't make it.

My interpretation of this thread was that she was pointing out "hidden details in things" for example if someone started a thread about the history of Halloween and the Satanic, Pagan or Wiccan aspects of it, I would take it as a "historical aspects you might not know about" just as a topic of interest.

Sorta like..............the way she titled the thread????


Like the way the Eugenics movement is what started the abortion movement and that Margaret Sanger was a fan of Eugenics and that Hitler picked it up for the Jews????

Like that. I didn't see anything that could be construed as Pagan bashing. I thought the thread was informative about a topic that most people were unaware of. I think your own sensitivities made you guys interpret it the way you did.

Sorry but that's how I saw it go down.

Seems like a Christian bashing comment to me??? Why you meant it to be nice? Or wait, you didn't mention Christianity?

^WARNING: WINDBAG POST AHEAD^

HYSTERICS. LOL. *Gives everyone a tampon* <---------- (Good-natured joke)

I really am a bad thread-sitter to begin with, I know it and that's why I never start them. Also, I just started a new job and I've been doing a lot of training, so I haven't been here much this week. Sorry.

You revealed a lot right there, JMPD. You revealed a lot of hostility and assumption about what my goal is. When a goal is judged beforehand to be negative, because relative to your belief it seems like an attack, it is called an agenda instead of a goal.

Maybe we can just accept each thread for it's discussion value and stop reading into the intent of the poster. Lots of anti-Christian threads are started, and if that is OK then we have to accept anti-anything else threads. But the question is, can we have one consensus about whether discussion is anti-anything? IOW, if someone starts a thread in which points within Christianity are criticized, we have to decide if that's attacking it or not. If it is, then those threads can't be allowed anymore. If it's not, then it's OK, and so threads criticizing anything else are OK, too.

I see everyone here always say several things that are just not being realized in this thread. One of them is that it is good and healthy (especially for Christians because we are apparently more ignorant somehow than the rest of humanity) to explore and learn, especially healthy to criticize anything and everything that we come across; but I don't see anyone being of that opinion here. I do see it a lot when Biblical teaching is not understood. Also, everyone seems to be against anyone putting theirself "above" any one else, but calling people ignorant because we believe something different based on personal experience, feels like some putting theirself above others, to me. Can we seperate the ideas from the person? If my ideas are in conflict with your ideas, does it call for personal attack? Attack my ideas, but when the word "ignorant" is thrown around like confetti, it's really just personal attack. I am in disagreement with the actions and ideas I have seen so far represented in paganism, but I think we can keep from bombing each others' countries over it. It's just a discussion forum, people. The ideas debate each other, but we don't have to attack each other.

BTW, I never meant to imply that your average Joe pagan sits around and eats babies in this day and age. I guess I should have explicitly said that, but I thought it would be understood.

I'm going to be adding to this thread as I learn more about paganism. If you don't like it, then don't like it. I'm not playing the cat and dog fight show anymore. This forum is for mature debate of ideas, observations, faiths, principles, religions. I will not accept what I'm told (I don't accept what I am told about Christianity either, I have a relationship with God from which I get my ideas about it), I will be digging into history, not just the popular history that the media portrays but as much as I am able to find within my limited time (I do have a job and kids so I have to read little by little). As I learn I may find that some of what I come across jives with what I am told and some of it may not. Who knows? Maybe I'll find something about a sect of Christianity that I don't like and want to discuss, when I am done with my paganism fascination. Maybe in the course of reading, I'll find something that I think is really positive about it and want to discuss that, too. Maybe I'll become of the opinion that extreme pagans are kind of the Westboro Baptists of the pagan world. A bad representation of the religion. Who knows? But can we talk about it in the meantime without all of this?

Can we all stop sneering at each other. I know this is a place where everyone's favorite pasttime is to psychologically analyze each other. We all think we're undiscovered psychological genuises, don't we? lol. Can we clean this place up and make an effort for this to be a place where we can talk about things? Can we talk about ideas, new paths of explorations and learning and finding out about (which I thought was a good thing, remember that's what everyone here always says?) A little less psychoanalyzing of the parties here, and maybe a little more of actual discussion? Is it a good idea do you think? When I was green to UM I honestly was very excited to be here every day, lately I find myself having to wade through so much muck to get to an actual thought or anything to discuss, it's almost pointless. I think UM has got to be the laughing stock of all internet discussion forums. We can't even get along and find discussion sometimes, amid all this variety of things there are to talk about.

I personally would like to apologize first. Sheri, I have reached a peak frustration level with your communication style and I have possibly mishandled it. The content of what I think about your positions is not what I am apologizing for. I am apologizing for the way I chose to express it. I am a very blunt person and although I don't think I did anything that was completely wrong, I think that I had options of how to handle how I communicated my perceptions to you and I chose the least good way. Just because I can be a b**** doesn't mean I should. And frankly, I am uncomfortable with the fact that I have chosen to be.

Let's not set up shop against each other just because we can. Human nature affords us the desire and intellect affords us the opportunity to use less than good manners with each other, but we don't have to choose to go along with it. I do not propose that we stop disagreeing, or even criticizing thoughts, faiths, religions, ideas, postions, etc.. But we can stop using hostility to express our frustrations with each other. We are all guilty of it.

My goal is to learn more about paganism, right now my concentration is on the history of it. I am finding disturbing things and I thought and still think that we are all capable of discussion about it. We must decide if it is OK to relate the history of something with the current practice of it. To me it seems like the same gods are being worshipped simply in a different form of worship. If it makes you angry what I am finding, please let's all consider each other as learners in progress. I may find and say things that some of you either like or don't like at any given point in time, but please let's talk about the points and not do this anymore. Please.

I don't want to not like you guys. I am pretty resilient, you can whack me around a little and I'll take it like a good sport. But lately, I find myself just not wanting to come here, and before I give up entirely I want to know if we can find better ways of expressing our frustrations than the accusations and assumptions that go on here. I think we can. Our ideas will always be in conflict, but it really is starting to enter in to our ability to talk to each other.

I still love you UM but let's improve this relationship. It can go good places and we are not realizing our potential. Not just between me and you personally but all of you with all others of you OK? Do yall realize what a wonderful thing we have here? It is what we make of it and I think it's all in how we handle our differences. Like any group of friends we are going to reach an impasse in communication. That is a signal that it is time for us to regroup and put more effort into keeping this friendship going. Relationships are always growing, they need maintenance, and they don't sustain themselves.

I know some of us are jaded and bitter, but why are we still here? Why do those of you who say you don't care anymore, even bother to post it? It's like when NB's ask Christians why we continue writing about our faith if we don't need validation for it. Why do you write that you don't care? Do you need validation for that? I don't think so. I think it's just that we all like to communicate. And several of us regulars have obviously chosen this to be our forum for communication, or one of our forums anyway. We like to be here. And when you say you don't care, you are communicating frustration, and communicating that you feel like you are not being heard.

I am not perfect and I am far from always right, but this was my attempt to get across to you that I hear what you are saying and I am trying to act on it. UM will not always be perfect either, but let's be like a bunch of friends who can drink a beer and toss controversial ideas around without pouting the next day and having drama.

OK I actually have some on-topic things to talk about here, and I will come back in a little while it is time for me to cook my kids' dinner. Thanks for listening.

i honestly don't understand why so many christians(mind you, i don't say ALL) find it so necessary to disprove/bash other faiths, and convert others?? why convert others??? can't you just be happy with your own lot?? and let others live the life they choose, aslong as it isn't harming anyone else or themselves?? ever hear of, "live and let live", no???

i mean you can't deny that all the threads and posts praising their faith, bashing others, and damning everyone else to hell has been by some form of 'christian', and why?? why do they feel the need to do this??(again, not ALL christians, but ALOT...this is obviously the only reason people are so miffed with them...if they weren't trying to shove their beliefs down others throats all the time, they wouldn't be getting any abuse from non-believers in the first place. no-one complains about muslims on here cos theres no person of islamic faith on here parading their personal beliefs and trying to force them on others!!! its not like everyone suddenly just decided to be 'anti-christian' they're retaliating, and though it might not always be in a favourable manner, there is reason for it...)

i mean, the undeniable fact is that, no matter what you call yourself, you are all capable of doing horrible things, we as humans are, be you that of christian, jewish, islamic faith or whatever faith, it doesn't matter. especially when you actually start bringing up the bloody past. yeah certain individuals whom referred to themselves as pagans did some crummy things, as did certain individuals whom referred to themselves as christians, or muslims, or whatever...so whats your point???

isn't the point really that we all struggle to live up to that perfect image of peace and 'sinless' life, be you christian, pagan, or atheist?? and so, someone who kills another, heck, eats a baby even, could be of any of these faiths or denominations??

in reality, all this thread accomplishes is to demonstrate that we as humans can be murderous beings, sacrificing children...it doesn't show that christians are better, or that pagans are bad...the only thing that those links tell me is that some humans kill for stupid reasons...it does not reflect on their faith, it only reflects on them personally, because if you think about it simply commiting that act is in itself going against their religion is it not???

Hmm. OK. Just a difference in perspective I suppose. Not as self explanatory as i thought.



Well, here in the states separation of Church and state is often an issue. Displaying a cross or other item of Christian origin in a government building often results in a lawsuit.

Meanwhile, government schools are installing foot baths in restrooms for Muslims so they can wash their feet before prayer and the intellectuals think that's OK (under pressure from Muslim groups naturally).

So it's a constant battle, the right to worship and the governments involvement. I even recall a Christian group being banned from having activities at school, while Muslims were allowed to do their prayer thing a the same school. Seems a bit skewed to me.

Hey! Don't you ditch til we finish our POLITE dialog you heathen!

I'm sorry to tell Christians but they put themselves in the hot seat since the evangelical movement has taken the lead in trying to legislate a belief system. While some changes have been made in the law to accommodate for beliefs that had been discriminated against, for the most part it has been a serious task of the Christian Right to make this nation ONLY Christian. I think that is where the deep felt anger and resentment towards Christians is coming from. No one is saying you can't believe what you want except Christians. To create a base of political Christians who say they will put forth the moral ideas of the Christian Right into law for EVERYONE regardless of their beliefs is going to cause problems. Just like with hot topic issues like abortion and gay marriage, the Christian Right is trying to polarize and gain power. That this action makes all Christians look bad is sad, but until there is a louder and more political movement out there that surpasses the push by the Christian Right, then the moderate Christians are going to get lost in the crowd.

Having said that, discrimination is NOT okay. To tell a group of people that their religion isn't even a religion as George W. Bush said about Pagans that tends to anger people. I don't think he could have gotten away with saying that about any other religious group but he did say it and I tend to think he still believes this. Again, Christians can't discriminate (as the now President has done) and not expect people to feel hurt, resentful and upset.

Just like the OP instead of bothering to talk with Pagans, or get to know them, instead posted really odd and slanted misinformation. Again this is going to do nothing but cause resentment. As for atheists who are vocal and are angry again, they are at the end of discrimination where national polls say they are some of the least trusted people. Why? I imagine that on a daily basis atheists and Christians interact and are friends and coworkers but atheists know that if they are vocal (which Christians are not only allowed but encouraged to be with seemingly no repercussions) they fear losing their job, or any other type of discrimination or harassment. So if the mood on the religion board is testy and if atheists and pagans seemed miffed this might give you a little insight as to why...

That's a huge assumption, and additionally, never did she say ALL pagans did or supported the actions described and documented on the articles, only that there are pagans who engage in these activities, just like there are plenty of threads here documenting the horrible things that Christians (not ALL Christians) do. Why is that so hard to accept? There is NO way anyone here can prove that NO pagans engage in those actions, especially since there is documentation which indicates there are those who do.

Hey, I have a great idea. For Christians starting threads...if you are going to start a thread where Christianity is going to be discussed...how about having them be 'about' Christianity. Hmmm...I don't know...start a thread about the Love of Jesus...How forgiveness is a virture...how much Jesus has changed your life for the better...Oh, wait...those threads would be found in the 'other' NON-CONFRONTATIONAL forum. So I guess....

....and just so everyone who may read this and doesn't already know...I AM a Christian...

...I guess...Some people think it is okay to bash another's faith. Jesus wouldn't...didn't...if you are a Christian...a follower of Christ why would you?? Isn't it interesting that the same bunch of folk who heralded Jesus as KING on a Palm Sunday, one week later wanted him crucified?? SC is correct in her assumption of hypocrisy. Wake Up Christians! You aren't spreading the gospel here...you are spreading hate.

So, any discussion of the negative side of any spiritual belief, other than Christianity of course, is bashing!?

Can't discuss the issue without spreading hate?

Wow, and Christians are accused of being thin-skinned.

I am curious out of pagans here on UM, do you worship some of the violent deities like Artemis/Diana?

Do you just find the ones that you like? Do you worship them or do you acknowledge them, communicate with them, can you tell me how it goes?

I posted the link to the abortion provider who tried to cover up the damage done to a woman who was held down and forced to go through with an abortion that she changed her mind about right before it started, because I couldn't understand how the act of that squared with the Do What Thou Wilt, As Long As It Harms No One, idea. The abortion provider was Wiccan. This is my big question, or one of them, there are many right now. If it is relative whether you are hurting someone or not, then how do you know when doing what you will, is hurting another? Does that mean when YOU think it's hurting another, or when they say it is? Or is there an absolute standard that everyone tries to go by, of when harm is being done? Perhaps it is hard for me to pin down whom to ask this of because the pagan/wicca/satanist lines seem to be fuzzy, but I believe this principle applies to pagans as well as wiccans and satanists, yes?

I have more questions but I'll just go one at a time right now. Thanks. I have several other things I want to explore but I want to get this question out of the way first.

Actually that is a valid question. Christians have the bible as their "barometer" I guess, or guide lines. What do faiths that have no specific rules use? Personal judgment?

Not exactly. If you and I for instance are discussing Christianity, as you know, I have several 'negative' views of the goings on of the churches. However; this is MY faith and YOUR faith that we are discussing. Because our beliefs are within the same Faith, it isn't 'bashing'. But for a Christian to discuss the 'negative' aspects of other Faiths is considered 'bashing'. Why? Because it isn't our faith...it is someone else's. To put it another way...suppose you and I are brothers...we can say practically anything to each other about our own mother...but if someone outside of our immediate family wants to discuss our mother....they better not have anything detrimental to say or someone is getting their butts kicked. Faith is the same way...it is immediately personal. What you have to understand is that in pointing out the negatives of Paganism...origins or otherwise...you are badmouthing SC's Mom. Or her great grandparents or whatever. It is personal...why wouldn't she take it as such? That's why people get bent out of shape over negative discussions concerning their faith.

So, free speech is only free if it doesn't hurt someone's feelings?

Unfortunately, there are many people who are trying to tell us that the only right answer to that question is, "Yes" and in the process of giving in to them we are destroying our own rights.

Sorry, if someone speaks ill of my mother, I may not like it, but they have every right to voice their opinion, they may get their butt kicked for it (by me), but I will also defend their right to have voice that opinion.

I don't like it when people bash Christianity, but I will defend their right to voice that opinion, as stupid as I may think it is. So, I refuse to give up the right to give my opinion or to question others' religious/spiritual beliefs.

I will certainly try to be respectful, but I think it is extremely detrimental to all of us to think we don't have the right to do so.

Having not been here long enough to take part in any Christian bashing I find myself wondering a few things.
1. When threads are started that people know will be controversial how can they not expect that someone out there will disagree vehemently about the subject? I mean if you bring up anyones belief system and make a statement or question it in such a way as to be leading (you know like they stop lawyers from doing in courts) you can't possibly think that they are just going to roll over and take it.
2. I am still waiting for what exactly the actual question was that started this thread...asked for it a while back but I guess Tex missed my query.
3. Perhaps people make attacks upon religions that they know have a large presence in the forum in order to get quicker responses.

I mean I don't believe anything that I have said in the few posts I have made has been attacking or bashing anyone so perhaps that may be why I have not received a response. Not that I particularly wish to be beat someone else or be beaten with a club or crucifix or other blunt object. I noticed a few other people who have posted on this thread who have not been responded to who seem rather upset about it and seem to be taking it as an affront. At least one of them seems to think it has to do with their religious affiliation. To you who feels slighted I say hey maybe you should take it as a sign that you are not being a pain in anyone's nether regions. Take it as a compliment man or woman or whatever I didn't look sorry. lol

O.K. thats what I was looking for some actual questions! I do worship some aspects of deity that might be considered by some if looked at from a negative point of view from the outset as violent. Diana for instance (since she seems to be the one who has your panties in a bind) is not only a goddess who ran around killing people for offending her and offing infants and children but also has many positive points.

I think that to look at only the negative stories about this goddess is far from being fair or impartial and would liken it to saying that the Judeo/Christian God is violent because he (and I am just going by the stories from the bible) flooded the world killing everyone and thing except a boatload full of critters and a family he liked, or the whole raining fire from the sky thing, Sodom and Gomorah and turning people to salt and what not and lets not forget the killing of first borns in Egypt. (see if I was a jerk I would have brought that up earlier in the thread) I mean that would be rather callous and less than reasonable for me to give just these instances as a explanation of who he is.



I worship those who represent aspects which I find to be worthwhile and appeal to me. Just as a Christian or Muslim is drawn to God or Allah for reasons that are personal to themselves but I would imagine have to do with the fact that they find some personal truth in their teachings which they can relate to.
Yeah I worship them although I do not think that it is in the way that you would probobly picture it. I am not sure what you mean by how it goes...


The whole doing what you will thing is alot more complicated than it sounds on the surface, for the most part in my practice it means not taking action in many situations. I do not take part in doing anything that I believe may have any possible detrimental effects on others, if I am at all in doubt I take no action. For me to take action on behalf of another person they would have to ask me to do so, I would not force myself or beliefs on someone who did not want me to do so.
As for the fuzzy lines that you seem to be experiancing I would almost be willing to bet that they are due to lack of information, there is a rather large difference between Wicca and Satanism. Although a pagan can be a Wiccan and a Wiccan is always a pagan, not all pagans are Wiccans and no Wiccans are satanists.
(wow I think I got that out right but I have a feeling I missed addressing something)

very good thought...believers in Christ have guidelines to follow...do they all follow?..no, i am sorry to say but the guides are still there which make it easy for others to grade us...it is easy to bash someone when you know the rules that we have to follow...am i perfect and follow all the rules? no, i am less than perfect and so i make mistakes (but i may be mistaken about that...i'll have to check)...use personal judgement by other groups?...some other groups have guidelines and some are vague by public standards...but when you allow personal judgement as your guide you can find things like concentration camps, slavery, human sacrifice, abortion on demand (i am not talking about those who face life and death medical decisions or other equally devastating issues but the ones who are self serving with no moral values to judge their actions), and etc. etc....good moral values and personal ethics are needed anytme by all groups but especially when personal judgement is the only way to measure how we treat others...

randomhit10

Violent in your mind maybe but not in actual fact. I don't know where you are getting your info but honestly if you think Artemis or Diana are violent they pale in comparison to the Biblical God, who by the count of the bible alone is responsible for over two million deaths directly taken by the Biblical god. That having been said Artemis was a greek goddess, here is a listing of her in Encyclopedia Mythica

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/artemis.html

And while yes she did in myth mind you commit acts of violence, the Greek Pantheon is not like the Biblical figures, different times, different morals, and most especially different archetypes. Nearly all the Greek Pantheon was an archtype that tried to do good but usually failed. They were seen differently than Biblical figures, and not worshipped the same. Again no more violent than acts in the Bible by the Biblical god or those in his name.

Diana is the roman equivalent of Artemis but differs as all Greek/Roman counterparts as they were worshipped differently in Romanized areas then when they were worshipped by the Greeks. Here is her listing under same site.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/diana.html

As for violence, I don't get other than a few really wacky sites you listed that I have yet to see proof of, any real violence done by pagans as a whole. There will always be whack jobs who are basically crazy and do things in the name of one thing or another but that happens in all beliefs. The fact you went out of your way to look for such things, in an attempt to what? balance things or to make Christians look better? I'm still not sure it does not seem at all like you are coming at this from unbiased curiosity, more like you have your ideas of pagans with out really actually getting to know any. Pagans, Wiccans, most earth based religions follow that what you do to others comes back to you three times, you send out positive it returns to you in one form or another in a positive way, send out bad it will return to you one way or the other to negatiively impact you. SO what you do you take responsibility for. I suggest if you want to know more about pagans, sit down and have a conversation with some and engage in a conversation instead of asking inflammatory questions. We aren't the boogeyman and we aren't out there to sacrifice children. Old wives tale and when I say old I mean old, so its time to move on from that and create a dialogue. As long as you are coming at it though from a place of accusatory feelings I doubt that anything will come of it or that you are learning anything about pagans.