Wow talk about a lot of misinformation put out here. Texasheathergirl, where to begin..First let me tell you about myself, I'm a history major and a pagan, and while I do not think that every Christian webiste is biased, I can say that the ones you posted are full of historical flaws. First lets take Moloch (you mentioned) which you said was medieval, ok well is a problem with that alone. Medieval times were full of demons and bad things used to explain things and frighten people into submission BY THE CHURCH. Yep thats right the church. Your quote "He is listed among the chief of Satan's angels in Book I, and is given a speech at the parliament of Hell in Book 2:43 - 105, where he argues for immediate warfare against God. He later becomes revered as a pagan god on Earth." Problem with that, Pagans do not nor would they worship figures from the Bible, because well they are pagans.

As for MODERN pagans and womens reproductive rights on that point you're semi correct, but again not historically correct at all. Modern pagans do believe for the most part (can't speak for all) that it is of utmost importance that their bodies are their own, and no one has a right to say what they can and can't do with their bodies. This may in fact be a intermingling between the feminist principles of the seventies melding with those who of pagan beliefs, but generally most women who aren't Christian (and even some who are) believe they have a right and all women should have the right to terminate a pregnancy if they so choose. This has nothing whatsoever to do with ritual sacrifice which while has been rumored to be practiced by pagans in the past but NOT done by modern pagans. As for bringing Artemis the goddess into this, this is something that as a person who obviously didn't do any research didn't understand or get the connections between a Greek goddess and abortion (which in all reality have nearly nothing to do with one another). In the past women (this is in Pre Christian, Pre Burning Times (might want to research burning times on your own and find out how much Christians in the past love to sacrifice people)) were able to control either with their own knowledge of herbs or a wisewomans knowledge their number of children, ease the pain of childbirth and generally have a more active role in society. Then came the burning times when it was no longer ok to ease the pain of childbirth (because of the sin of Eve) women were thought to HAVE to suffer chldbirth because basically they deserved it for the the sins of Eve. Wisewomen were killed and tortured for being witches. SO yes being free to decide your reproductive rights is a HUGE deal to pagans because Christians seem to say we shouldn't.

As for human sacrifice, that is a tougher question, why? Because pagan by a Christians definition is anyone who isn't a Christian, or who doesn't follow Abrahamic traditions. (Sometimes the latter doesn't even get you out of being labeled a pagan in past times). The only actual knowlege I have about human sacrifice which would have some bearing on this as, so many pagan beliefs were wiped out in a genocidal fashion by Christians in the past that only those that still managed to get through with some small part of their beliefs intact are left to discuss. So for an example I'll take druids. Now there are some that say that druids practiced human sacrfice, but alas funny thing is TexasHeatherGirl you actually reminded me that that is not only not the case but Druids took it like Jesus. Yep that is right, Druids (from bog bodies we know this) were sacrificed for the good of the people but did so WILLINGLY, and were adults. No bog "babies", in fact no babies at all were sacrified and why should they have been. You have to understand that infant life was cheap, sad to say not out of culutral bias but out of the sheer fact that so few of them survived from disease, famine, you name it. Infant deaths were up and until modern times (and still in some countries) quite high. So adult human sacrifice although EXCEEDINGLY rare, did happen but again with VOLUNTEERS who were as we know from the manner of death, usually done in a pretty human way. Feel free to look up the details yourself.

But to lump all pagans together as baby killing demon worshippers, well that just shows wanton willful ignorance. It shows that you would rather believe the stereotypes and the silly one dimensional propoganda than say MEET some pagans and see they are just like everyone else. Pay taxes, have kids, love them (don't sacrifice them) and believe in a world where "harm none" is the basic tenant of belief. So don't fall into the all so easy trap of fearing what you don't know and judging who you have never bothered to get to know.

So, questioning what the God of the Bible did or didn't do, calling Christians killers and haters because of the horrible things some people do and did claiming to do it in God's name, and calling their beliefs a hoax, all of that is fine, we're supposed to just grin and bear it right, but as soon as someone starts asking questions about whether some pagans (and yes, it was SOME pagans, never did anyone say ALL pagans believe/do this) really do consider abortion a blessed sacrifice, then it's bashing.

Come on, SC, why is it not OK to discuss whether some, not all mind you, but some pagans practice acts which are horrid and do so in the name of or to please particular gods or goddesses?

Funny... the only horrid acts done under paganism was done thousands of years ago.. Yet christians still do horrid acts to this day....

The "current" bad crap is done by people under the guise, in the name of the abrahamic satan but labled pagan by idiotic news medias and people who panic at the sight of a pentagram/penticle... Or teenages who take their Vampire game way to serious or trying to be wannabe goths/wiccan and don't know first thing... then if something unfortunate happens.. there goes the media again!

Then there's the tribal people who really have no connection to the modern world except for film makers and documentary people... what they do.. they've done to survive through out thousands of years.


But in your sence... it's ok then for christians to call pagan faiths a hoax as well, along with questioning our faith.. but damn us if we do so in return? Coward and a hypicrite.

And you wonder why my snideness has been growing...

OH I"M SOOOO SORRY, Christians are the epidomy of all that's good, holy, correct, and they NEVER do any harm, or murder, or commit genocide... We must ALL appologize for not bending over and letting them call us poor pethetic pagans worthless, satan worshipers, and a misguided lot! (sarcasm agan by the way)

I was trying to bring this conversation back to an even keel, but oh, well, love ya anyway.

Holy crap! I don't know which side to jump in and defend!!

You guys are awesomely cruel. Modern Christians don't kill people, just like modern pagans/Wiccans/etc don't kill people (for religious reasons sanctified by any governing body at least). So you guys all need to quit that crap. For every nut-bag that kills because "God told me too", I can probably find as many cases where some nut bag says "Satan told me too" or some one says "I paid a witch to curse so and so and then I killed him". Granted, these people are usually verifiable mentally ill or come from undeveloped countries. So what's the point?

I bet the reasoning behind that whole abortion clinic/religion thing was to try to somehow politicize abortion and use religion AGAINST the Christian anti-abortion groups. If you make abortion part of any bonafied legally recognized religion...it adds to the legal confusion.

Now cut it out, or I'll fire up BM and watch her unleash that Irish temper on all of you!

pht.. She ain't the only one here with that Irish temper...

What's funny is your first comment about Christians "still doing horrid acts," but your second paragraph is apparently excusing horrid acts done by self proclaimed Pagans, as not being real pagans at all; therefore their acts shouldn't be considered in the name of True pagans.. Yes, I suppose those acts should be considered! Christians who do horrid acts aren't really Christians, they are wanna bees, and do not represent the true Christian. Yet their acts reflect on Christianity as a whole regardless.... Are Pagans some exception to the rule..

Hmmmm....baby eaters? Why would a baby eating pagan be pro-abortion? Kind of kills the meal doesn't it? But wait a minute...Now the Catholics are very Anti-Abortion....Hmmm...and very Pagan in their roots...Hmmm

Makes me wonder now why Catholics are so Anti-Abortion....

I'm not denouncing. I'm stating that all these horrible "pagan" acts done in these days are usually overblown by the media and fearmongers...

"Two teenaged boys slaughtered their parents because of they believed that they were their two Vampire charagters from a roleplaying game. People believe that it's pagan witchcraft..."

>.> Yeah.. right... Let's try to bring reality in on that. That's not pagan acts.. that's two idiot teens who can't tell reality from fantacy. (article I read pre intrawebs but most of these "It's witchcraft!!!" articles read like that)

ABORTION: According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, during the Clinton years, the abortion rate fell by about 27 percent. A new independent study by an ethics professor at Fuller Theological Seminary finds that today, "contrary to popular assumption, abortion has risen in the U.S. during George W. Bush's presidency." (here) and (here)


Christian Terrorist On Trial for Anthrax Hoaxes
While the administration debates treating Muslim terrorists as "enemy combatants" and denying the basic rights afforded to those normally accused of crimes, the trial of a Christian terrorist continues in Pennsylvania. So far, there have been no suggestions to send him to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, or to put him in a military brig. I wonder why?
CNN reports on the case of Clayton Lee Waagner, accused of sending hundreds of letters to women's clinics claiming to contain anthrax:

Waagner, 47, previously had claimed responsibility for the letters, but also suggested it was possible he lied about his involvement to take the pressure off other anti-abortion activists. Waagner already is serving a 30-year jail term for weapons violations, and other charges are pending in several states. He was on the FBI's most wanted list when he was arrested in Ohio in December after 10 months on the run following his escape from an Illinois jail. Interestingly, not all of the places that received Waagner's letters actually provided abortions; at least one is opposed to abortions! Waagner seems to profess to be a member of the "Army of God" extremist group, which would mean that he is an extremist and a terrorist in the name of a religious ideology. If he were a Muslim who sent such letters to Jewish groups in America, I guarantee you that the case would be getting more attention and would be treated differently.


http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/11/23/anthrax.hoax.ap/index.html

Christian Terrorists Kill 44, Wound 118 in Attacks in Northeast India

GUWAHATI, India (AFP)

October 2, 2004

The blasts were the second major burst of violence in the northeast since mid-August. Fifteen people, many of them children, were killed in a rebel attack on an Independence Day parade in Assam August 15 for which the United Liberation Front of Asom claimed responsibility.

The armed insurgency in Nagaland began soon after much of the local population converted to Christianity. Many militant groups, seeking to secede from India to form an independent Christian state, are funded and armed by the Southern Baptist Church. Some of the groups such as the National Liberation Front of Tripura have been involved in a campaign of “gunpoint conversions� and “ethnic cleansing� of native non-Christians, which has left over 50,000 dead and many more refugees over the past two decades.

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christian_ter...sts_kill_44.htm

Is Terrorism Tied To Christian Sect?
Religion May Have Motivated Bombing Suspect
By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, June 2, 2003; Page A03


The arrest of alleged Olympic bomber Eric Robert Rudolph may finally allow authorities to answer a question that has loomed since the beginning of the five-year hunt for him, but that has taken on deeper resonance since Sept. 11, 2001: Is he a "Christian terrorist"?

The question is not just whether Rudolph is a terrorist, or whether he considers himself a Christian. It is whether he planted bombs at the 1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta, two abortion clinics and a gay nightclub to advance a religious ideology -- and how numerous, organized and violent others who share that ideology may be.

Federal investigators believe Rudolph has had a long association with the radical Christian Identity movement, which asserts that North European whites are the direct descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, God's chosen people. Some investigators also think he may have written letters that claimed responsibility for the nightclub and abortion clinic bombings on behalf of the Army of God, a violent offshoot of Christian Identity.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer

and not the last --- and by 'christians'




A Call to Arms for 'Christian Terrorists'
Anti-Abortionist Calls for Violence, Says It Is Religious Duty By DEAN SCHABNER
Jan. 22, 2004 --
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E-mail
Print An anti-abortion activist, calling for a new wave of violence against clinics and doctors, is following the example of violent Islamic fundamentalists, telling those who share his views to become "Christian terrorists" and promising them a reward in Heaven.

"As cream rising to the top of the milk, so the Christian terrorist rises above the huddled masses of churchgoers and the many voices which denounce their violent attempts to defend the innocent from they're [sic] murderous assailants," Chuck Spingola wrote in a posting on the Army of God Web site


http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96790&page=1

and don't be a hypocrite and try to justify. I hate that excuse for stupidity. and don't say they weren't real christians then. that's such an easy cop out answer.

if 80% or so of this country is 'christian' then most of the crime and corruption is 'christian'. numbers don't lie.

almost forgot -

"Larry Hooper was killed for being an atheist. His brutal murder, perpetrated at the hands Arthur Shelton, a Christian and Eagle scout, was justified simply because he was an atheist.

The trial began with the taped phone call Arthur Shelton placed to the Taylor police department in Taylor, Michigan, October 18, 2004, at precisely 12:44 AM. Shelton sounded calm and pridefull when he told the dispatcher he had just shot "the devil himself" with a revolver and a shotgun because "he (Hooper) didn't believe in God." Shelton told the dispatcher he was "still armed and ready to shoot again in case he moves. I want to make sure he's gone." When the dispatcher asked how many times he shot the victim Shelton replied, "hopefully enough.""

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/258653.htm

A Christian Terrorist kills seven innocent Americans including children and women. The terrorist act happened on Saturday at a church service held regularly at the Sheraton Hotel in Brookfield, Wisconsin. After killing the seven innocent people the Christian terrorist killed himself. Four died at the scene and three others died later of their injuries, police said. They ranged in age from 16 to over 60 year olds.

The terrorist was described as a 45-year-old man who had been affiliated with the church, which met at the hotel every Saturday morning for several years. The group, the Church of the Living God, is an evangelical church that observes the Sabbath on Saturday, not on Sunday. It was reported that the gunman had differences with the Church Leaders on various religious affairs including the Christian Sabbath day. Experts believe that his act was inspired by several biblical verses that promote violence in the Old Testament. However, no one has demanded a serious study on the issue of Biblical roots of Violence.

Experts also believe that the inspiration for the terrorist act came from the belief that the killing would be forgiven as Jesus has already died for the sins of all the Christians.

Several Experts on Christianity tend to believe that the rising violence in the US can be attributed to this belief. In a survey done by some experts it was revealed that most Christians believe that their sins have already been forgiven as the Son of God has died for their sin. "The rising violence and the indulgence of Christians in the killing, looting and cheating acts all over the world can be attributed to this belief", said an expert. "When people believe that they are not accountable to any higher authority as they have already been forgiven, they tend to commit excesses regardless of the harm they inflict upon people", explained the expert.

"If the world wants to see a decrease in violence in countries with Christian majority, they have to look at the Christian theology of sin and crucifixion", added the expert.

Seemingly, the incidents of violence are on the rise in the USA, after the re-election of Mr. Bush who is said to be a staunch evangelical born-again Christian.

Experts feel that his re-election has emboldened several rightwing Christians. Several religious communities are questioning the silence of Christian leaders and scholars in discussing the theology of the forgiveness of sin.

http://www.iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IV0503-2640


now where is the latest on the horrible attrocities committed by pagans or athiests ? have they killed any christians ? proof please ?

I know yall don't see what my point is, but there is a point and a purpose to this thread, I am still researching. I have thousands of sites to look at and a couple books to finish going through, so it will be probably be one or two days before I conclude my point. Thank you for your patience. I don't want to post anymore until I am ready to wrap up my conclusions, I am still in the rough draft stage right now. I am the worst thread-starter ever lol. I do have a bad habit of abandoning my threads (ADD is a horrible thing I just can't concentrate on any one thing for too long ), but this has got my full attention right now and I will be back to finish my thoughts. Thanks again for giving it your time.

It' NOT a cope out answer, It's the truth- A real Christian wouldn't do those things. To think that Christians are more likely to develope a criminal mind is ludicrious. & if this country is largely Christian ( as you say 80%) then the crime stats would more than likely show that same high number in proportion to other religions.. that's no lie.

Sorry, but... this sounds like a really lame excuse for not directly replying to other people's arguments.

Nobody's expecting a dissertation on the subject...

I think I already get the point:

Bash!


Really isn't much more of a point to it is there? When you boil it down to its salt.

I agree with all arguments so far. If you go to the roots of all religions and beliefs, you will find a dark underside. In the modern day, while there may still be a small portion of the population from all beliefs that commit these acts, they should not be mistaken for the everyday majority. If a so-called Christian bombs an abortion clinic, this should not reflect upon the entirety of Christianity. If a Pagan eats babies for dinner, this should not reflect the overall Pagan beliefs. If an atheist bashes up a Christian simply for being Christian (yes, it happens) that does not reflect on Atheism itself.

Rather, I think it reflects more on the state of humanity than anything else, and until that is addressed we won't get anywhere, regardless of religion and beliefs.

Regards, PA

Well said! I try to get the same point across all the time. I even said you could post evil Christian stories all day, and I could come up with one pagan/witchcraft one for each of yours. And sure enough, someone started with all the "Christian terrorists" in the news.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4705201.stm Child sacrifices?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...witchcraft.html Witchcraft linked to child slavery?
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardt...raft_murder.htm Is this a typical Wiccan?
http://www.centralchronicle.com/20070605/0506321.htm Is this how "witches" behave when people go to them for help?
http://heathenblog.wordpress.com/2007/01/1...d-to-nm-murder/ Sounds like people condemning all for the actions of one to me.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archi...ames;read=81340 Sounds like a self proclaimed Christian Witch to me.

This is NOT to indict ANYONE! This is to illustrate that people of ALL backgrounds or who claim to have some background are capable of this sort of behavior.

I'm going to say it again, this time in all caps AND bold...

ANY RELIGION, SECT, CULT, CLUB, ORGANIZATION THAT CONSISTS OF HUMANS HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BEHAVE IN THIS MANNER. IT IS NOT THE RELIGION OR ETHNICITY OR NATIONALITY, BUT THE HUMAN FACTOR THAT CREATES A CLIMATE OF EVIL.

Christianity has killed millions.
Judaism has killed millions.
Islam has killed millions.
Pagan/Nature worshipers have killed millions.
Communism has killed millions.
People who believe in no God have killed millions. (Atheists? Seems too vague.)

Bottom line? PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE. IGNORANCE KILLS PEOPLE. FEAR KILLS PEOPLE. INTOLERANCE KILLS PEOPLE. POWER KILLS PEOPLE.

Here is what I believe: There are good people of all races and religions all over the world. If the good Jews, Islamists, Christians, Pagans, etc. all recognized that fact, and INSISTED that the people they followed and turned to for inspiration and guidance (Popes, Ministers, whatever) acknowledged that fact, the world would be a better place.

you have a newspaper link that says babies are being sacrificed ? christianity has murdered , no need for sacrifice.

it is a cop out answer . that's like saying christians don't murder. or steal.

that's akin to saying christians are sinless because as soon as one commits a crime christians are quick to say ' he wasn't a real christian' yet before the act they were.

it's a cop out.

I have been gone for a week and come back to such biased websites! Point of history...Christians in ancient Europe practiced both abortion and exposure of unwanted children and it was accepted by the church as a necessity! This was the only two "birth control" methods available to the people because the Church had destroyed the fairly good medical knowledge of Rome and Greece because it was Pagan! I don't mind Christian websites if they can back their message up with facts not opinions, but the ones you posted not only are extremely biased but are chockful of historical errors! Please, if you must post other websites, at least choose those that are so ignorant!

excellent post....you have made a remarkable statement here....i have noticed that this is already being blamed on Christians....God promised a veil of deception that would be cast on some who were too far gone....thank you for posting this.

randomhit10

You guys bag on texas because she used Christian based websites to make her point. I didn't, and I got nothing. Talk about bias.

I can feel the love.

bias is in the eye of the beholder....why do you feel this is bias?

randomhit10

i assure you that nothing is more exciting than waiting for a big smack on the cheek by one with one big blue eye...lol

randomhit10

LMAO

What statement?? yuu only quoted the links she posted

Texas used Christian based sites and got hammered for it.
I used secular sites like BBC, and silence.
It's not a matter of making a valid point here, it's just a matter of finding fault. Why bother posting and cruising the thread if all some people are going to do is look for fault. It's like saying someones political stance is wrong because they can't spell. It's a weak tactic. Like saying "Oh yeah, well...your fat!"

It amazes me that Mako would call this biased too! As if all the Christan bashing threads created by GW are NOT biased? For the love of Pete! She creates like 5 or 6 a week!

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=96416
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...c=96411&hl=
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...c=96412&hl=

Here are just a few. But there is no bias there? Yet texas starts a thread critical of Paganism and she's biased?

Sorry, that's just what I felt was being implied. When I posted a few links backing up some negative takes on the subject that were pretty much secular, I got NO response. Silence.

So in reality..its only the non believers that do all the killing...every last murder you have heard of to date, is and has only ever been done by an atheist??

The world must be coming to the end...i am agreeing whit Joc

By the way, some of the links about "wichtcraft" are about local religions and practices in places like India or Africa, not related whit what in the Occidental world is comonly named "Wicca" or "Neo-paganism".

In fact, one of the few links related to the occidental world talks about a very deranged women how killed one of her sons.



She also have suicide records. I dont think her actions were influenced because she was "Wicca".

Source

you are right that people only want to be critical....i feel bad that your post was not given the same attention....i have seen this more than once on forums, not just this one...

randomhit10

that is all i needed to put...the links speak volumes...texasgirlheather had something to say and did it very well, factual, to the point.

randomhit10

Several times I and other Christians have posted about the real problem that is caused because so many use the word "Christian" that it has lost it's true meaning.

From some of the posts here it seems that maybe some of you pagans should realize the same thing about the word pagan. heather did not say all pagans, but the sites use the word pagan as a generic term, just like some use Christian for anyone who uses the word God, goes to church, owns a Bible, etc. If you and/or your group do not engage in these acts, then obviously this is not about you... but that doesn't mean there aren't other pagan groups who do (just like there are those who call themselves Christian and yet are out there inflicting even more pain on families already suffering from the death of a loved one), and it also means that you will at times get lumped in with them just like I get lumped in with all those Christians who do things I would never support.

Tough break for all of us.

Hi Texas...this has taken me some time to look through...if you don't mind I dont wish to talk about abortions...I once saw graphic pics on it and it was disturbing

Anyway...i took a look at the second link...wich itself held other links

I does look as though these christian authors have gave Lilith a horrible name, and I can't help but wonder is it because of this....

In modern mythology Lilith has become a symbol to many feminists of the independent woman, who refuses to submit to the control of men. because we know that religion is male dominated, and any woman that stands up to a man, is looked down apon and in them days were punished

What shocked me was this --> Lilith is described as either a winged serpent or a screech owl (or a anthropomorphic combination thereof) who murders infants (it would appear from the perspective of modern medicine that infants who succumbed to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome would have been thought to have been victims of Lilith), and who torments men at night who sleep alone -- the original succubus
I'm wondering - there is a brave difference between a winged serpant (im guessing linked to satan) and an Owl............who murders infants..........this is what they call - SIDS??? WTF?? how can these people, make it out as though the lil babies that die of SIDS is the work of some made up creature, that goes by the name of Lilith No offence but that can't be proved and it' sounds like a load of cobblers.

Babies are born sinless..a lot have died of SIDS <--it's called SIDS for a reason...and that is no sod knows the real reason WHY these lil babies die................................but this christian author that wote this garbage on the site posted, I am so glad he is not a doctor..he would make matters worse...I can just pic it now

Parents crying cuz their baby died of SIDS...in come the christian author of the website and he says -- > "This has to have been to the work of Lilith...she did it, she works for satan" and in his lil mind, at the same time, hoping that the parents will grow closer to God

My arguement is this - no baby should die...if a baby is believed to be born without sin, then it's up to God to protect them...........but in reality it don't work like that does it?? cuz if it did, no baby would die of SIDS

The site moves on to have a pop at pagans and wiccans

Wiccans do not believe in sin as Christians do. They see sin as an outdated, constraining concept. Therefore, they see no need for God. Wiccan high priestess Starhawk says, 'We can now open new eyes and see there is nothing to be saved from, no struggle of life against the universe, no God outside the world, to be feared and obeyed.' Through spiritual self-improvement, Wiccans hope to reach their equivalent of heaven, called the Summerland or the Land of Eternal Youth. On the other hand, the Bible tells us that no amount of good work can get us to heaven. Through Christ alone we are saved." truly baised!!

He goes on to make more weird claims like...

Wicca adherents will tell you over and over that Wicca is older than "Christianity" (not a Bible word). Witchcraft is not older than worship of the true God. It came up in OPPOSITION to the worship of the true God.

Yet when you look up REAL Wiccan expert sites, it differs from what christians have to say about their religion

For instance...

Brief History

Wicca is a neo-pagan religion based on the pre-Christian traditions of the ancient Celts from England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. Its origins can be traced even further back to Paleolithic peoples who worshipped a Hunter God and a Fertility Goddess. Cave paintings found in France (and dated at 30,000 years old) depict a man with the head of a stag, and a woman with a swollen, pregnant belly. They stand in a circle with eleven mortals. These archetypes of the divine are worshipped by Wiccans to this very day. By these standards, the religion that is now called Wicca, is perhaps the oldest religion in the world. I cannot say who founded it since it was not really founded by one man, culture or religious group, it simply was the nature based religion of the ancient Celts. In 1951, the laws against Witchcraft were repealed in England. A man named Gerald Gardner was the first to come into the public eye with a description of what modern witches were practicing. His information came from the traditions of a coven called the New Forest Witches, and from Ceremonial Magic and the Cabbala. He began what is now called the Gardnerian Tradition of Wicca. From Gardnerian came Alexandrian Tradition, and a host of other offshoots that today number in the hundreds.

but the christian author of the website says.....

WICCANS SAY THAT WICCA IS THE "OLD RELIGION"

Wicca as a group is not old. Wiccans believe the lies that their leaders have taught them. This should be no surprise because their father, the devil, is the "father of lies"

above we can clearly read where it says that - Gerald Gardner was the 1st one to come to the public eye with a describtion of what MODERN witches were practicing........................it doesnt state he was the founder of wicca

But the christian author of the website says lol....

BASICS OF WICCA

Cult name: Wicca.

Founder: Gerald B. Gardner (1884-1964). In 1949 Gardner wrote a book entitled, "High Magic's Aid". He wrote under his witchcraft name "Scire". This novel set the tone for the myth of Wicca. Notice Wicca is based on a fictional book. According to Little White Lie!!

this guy is white lies on the brain! but he has just told one himself by not bothering his ar*se to look up the correct info on wicca his site that clearly slags off the other religions... - http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Rel..._witchcraft.htm false religions??? how can he make such a claim, when he himself cannot prove it otherwise???

on the wiccan site, it speaks about misconceptions

Misconceptions

For two thousand years the image of the Witch has been associated with evil, heathenism, and blasphemy. These ideas have their origin in Christian myths created to convert members of the Old Religion to that of the new. By making the Witch into a diabolical character of ill intent and action, the Christian missionaries were able to attach fear to a word that had once meant Healer, Wise One, and Seer. These fears are present to this day. When we think of the archetypal image of the Witch, we remember the evil enchantress of childhood tales. We think of an old, wrinkled hag with a nasty wart on her nose. We think of hexes, and devils, and foul incantations chanted around a bubbling cauldron. While we modern witches have been known to stir up herbal remedies in a cauldron, we are a far cry indeed from the horrifying Wicked Witch of the West! Witches Do Not Worship Satan. To believe in Satan, one must subscribe to the Christian mythos. We do not. Wicca does not have any belief in, nor do we worship a concept of evil incarnate. All life is perceived as a constant flow of positive and negative energies, which intertwine to create the balance of life. [From my own experience, I must say that the only evil I have ever observed in the world has come from Man. There are no ax-murderers, or child-abusers to be found in the animal kingdom, or in nature as a whole.] Witches Do Not Cast Evil Spells. Modern Witches have a very strict belief in the Law of Return - The Thrice Fold Law - Whatever we send out into our world shall return to us, so even the most ill-tempered Witch would not consider doing magic to harm another being. The spells that we do involve things like Healing, Love, Wisdom, Creativity, and Joy. The "potions" that we stir might be a headache remedy, or a cold tonic, or an herbal flea bath for the family dog.

Lots of sites claim it to be the oldest of religions...all accept christian sites

Witches of Ancient Wiccan Religion


Wiccan is an ancient pagan religion. As a matter of fact, it's one of the oldest religions in history. Members of the Wiccan religion call themselves witches. They are well documented throughout history. Witchcraft is magical powers believed to be given to witches. Many people believe these magical powers to be given by evil spirits. Throughout history many parts of the world considered witchcraft to be evil. For hundreds of years the Catholic church sought to root out witches, and untold thousands were burned at the stake. source - http://www.holidayinsights.com/halloween/witch3.htm

If i want to believe in satan and weird serpants that kill babies, and that wiccans are satans lil helpers ect..all I have to do is swallow all the ranting on the christian site posted above???

No thanks

No offence to anyone else here, but I took the time, read what I could, and the only one that speaks of satan and makes claims, is the christian author...slagging off other religions

We don't have proof there is a satan..nor do we have proof of this so called owl serpant creature, that goes by the name of lilith, who kills babies, which is also known as SIDS <--fancy using that as a way to change someones mind....shambles!! it sicken me they use SIDS as a good excuse to prove the devil exists............they should be ashamed of that

****Im not getting at christianity as a whole...no..if you read my post correctly, I am getting at the author of the web page posted in the OP**** <--can't be much clearer than that

Conclusion...who cares what religion is oldest or not??? you dont follow a religion going by how old it is do you??

From what the author has said about wiccans ect...was cruel...making them out to be devil worshipers..............for what valid reason?? What good would it do?? Who's mind would change? who can be brainwashed into actually taking his word for it??

You know, truthfully, I did not read your posting, nor did I read any posting after the original posting with the links. I responded to the original links…pointing out that during the medieval period in Europe that abortion and exposure (leaving newborns out in the weather to perish from exposure) were used by the Christians as the only forms of birth control allowed by the Church. British Archaeology had a rather good article on this practice several years back (I don’t subscribe to the magazine so I can’t do a quick reference on the article). The belief at that time (dating back to the Empire and the early Church) was that children did not acquire souls until after their first year and this was the good Christian justification for this practice. That comment covered the first link which reflects the CURRENT beliefs of Christians, a belief that only dates back less than a century. The second link isn’t really a Christian link, it is a conspiracy link and a rather ludicrous one at that….everyone that doesn’t believe as they do (Christian or otherwise) is part of this grand conspiracy! Anyone that even gives countenance to such an off the edge of sanity though process has my sympathy and well wishes with the “head doctor’ that they so obviously need to see. As for the 3rd link (which for what it is worth in non-Christian), what it is supposed to show – well, you lost me! It is strong evidence that some modern Christians took a Mesopotamian demon, that MIGHT be mentioned one time in their book of mythology and attempted to turn it into something. Yes, I know all the legends that she was the first wife of Adam (a poor attempt at explaining the “double” creation story) and such tripe…As I said before, the websites are short on evidence and strong on opinion and (dare I say) insanity. Eggumby, I did not read your posting, but news agencies are normally much less biased than sites whose sole purpose is to push a strong agenda either for or against a certain belief. This is why non-Christians refuse to accept even moderate Christian websites as evidence. They have only one purpose, to attempt to give evidence for their religion, totally ignoring the fact that there is no evidence for their religion, only personal opinion.

there was 3 links..you didnt make a comment on either one of them..did you even read them?? just asking

if you did read them...have you any points to make??


LOL I can just pic your face now going - grrr now I have to actually read one of those links

I can get behind that...I hate those combo Christianity/End-Times/Conspiracy sites too. Even when they MIGHT be close to even a FRACTION of truth, it's so surrounded by paranoia, it becomes invisible.
I was referring to my posts, which as you say are a little less leaning one way or the other. And my reason for posting them is explained in the post. They are examples only, not offered as evidence that either or any point of view is right or wrong.

To begin with it's not human sacrifice, it's murder and its against the law. These are sick people that think they can do anything and think they are above the law. What makes you think Christians don't think life is sacred? They don't go around murdering innocent children in the name of God.

Way to go Heather, kick thier a***, Iv'e got your back. These guys are (for lack of a better word) "idiots". I wonder how they would feel if someone in their family was to be sacrificed in the name of some pagan god and had to witness the sacrifice. I bet the would be on the ground in a fetal position crying.

The REAL christians DONT murder in the name of God..butthe nutty ones that claim to be christian have done and were locked up for it

WTF? Where and when...what evidence do you have other than a ridiculous website? If you have more why haven't you gone to the law...not going makes you as guilty as the alleged "pagans"...


That is what you call Amazing Grace...God had to sacrifice himself to himself so that he would not condemn his beloved creations to eternal torment in the fires of Hell...Amazing and totally illogical!

The above is a never ending refrain here. I agree BM. Same goes for anyone, Christian or not. Now, that was not the case at one time. I mean the Crusades were church sponsored wars, no doubt about it. But that's like condemning man-kind altogether because some cave-men raided another tribe and killed all the children and men, raped the women, and stole the goodies. Sure it happened. Hopefully humanity has grown beyond that, and hopefully Christians have grown beyond that.

yahoo well said eggy...<--again agreeing with you...please dont hink anything else, other than BM again agreed with the egger man LOL

Yea, I don't get why anybody wants to focus on any one religion for the immoral actions that have been done in that religions name when practically every religion has had this happen at some point. Doesn't mean you toss out the good the religion has or condemn the people who do good because of their faith.

As I said.. humans have been and always will be a violent race.

Much of the violence can be gotten rid of, if our priorities can be changed.

Folks Modern Christians have blood on their hands and still continue to cause death and destruction. The modern missionaries that head off to remote villages bring with them diseases that most indigenous peoples have no immunity to, it has been well documented that supposedly well meaning christians have killed thousands. On top of that is the cultural losses that occur when an indigenous tribe is "christianized" and loses its own cultural identity. Granted this happens rarely now for the simple fact there are so few indigenous peoples LEFT to convert, but it still occurs. Yeah sure christians show up and say hey lets build a hospital, but rarely take into account the people wouldn't be sick if for them bringing diseases with them.

It's true humans have caused quite a bit of harm in trying to help other people. But having indigenous people losing their cultural identity isn't something to be concerned about. Culture is overrated. I don't care about their past and neither should they. It's the present that should be of concern.

ignoring the past is dooming ourselves to repeat it.

I expected the cliche. you should learn from the past but not hold yourself to the past or past culture. You aren't your ancestors, living like them is not a necessity.