(...) writes:

"There are hundreds of different god beliefs and thousands of different religious beliefs. No, god has ever appeared to or spoken to the SIX BILLION 'sane' members of the human race. No dead father, mother, sibling or friend has ever spoken to or confirmed their after life to any of the SIX BILLION 'sane' members of the human race. No god has ever confirmed it is the real god and that all others are fakes. Why does any 'real' god permit all these fakes? Could it be because no gods exist and 'all' gods are nothing more than the hopes and wishes of man. Could it be that man's frightening fear of the finality of death causes him to create scenarios of an after life?"


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********


V writes:


Yes, all good questions you have brought up.

Well, Yahweh was supposed to have spoken quite a bit to the Hebrews. That is what most people of faith base their faith on, that the Hebrews had contact with Yahweh.

If you ask such religious practitioners why God is silent, you often get the canned answer that "God's way is not man's way" or "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test!"

If we go back to the OT we can see God communicated extensively with the Hebrews. God directed them specifically with how to design and build things and how to worship him through burnt offerings and penance. God was very detailed with his directions about unclean women during menses and how the Hebrews should keep their slaves.

God even commanded the people how to bake bread, (with human excrement) discriminate against the handicapped, kill the faithful of other religions and how much money to pay to rape young women.

But for some reason Yahweh stopped talking. What happened to this vocal God that seemed to die with the authors of the Old Testament, for no one ever hears a peep from God?

Did God die with the writers?

BTW, if God was a perfect designer, should he have not made women 'unclean' and not have menses? That way God could have saved some breath and cut his 600+ commandants to the Hebrew down by one?

See: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~adamgosp/otcomm.htm

I do not write this to browbeat theists into becoming atheists. For without spiritual guidance, most people are sunk. But being a devotee to truth, I just give my opinion on this subject. No, the deluded theists are generally much better off than the deluded atheists is whose mind is filled with hatred and ill will.

See:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism...d580376205a536b?

I just have included a few thoughts on why I am agnostic, when the subject turns to the God of the monotheists. As a good agnostic, I hold no favorites. I comment on atheists just as freely as I do with theists...wherever the truth is...that is where I go. And if we don't know what is true, then we must always say so and say it is just a personal belief and speculation.

When I became an agnostic (but pointed in the direction of atheism) I surveyed this very question of what God(s) were there that were real.

I found two such Gods.

The God of Nature and The God of Inner Peace.

Many atheists scoff at these Gods, but they are quit real.

They say I created them.

I did no such thing.

These Gods speak to us all if we bother to listen to them.

No, you cannot see them, but just as you cannot see the wind or gravity, but see its effects, so it goes with these two Gods.

You see, every atheist serves two Gods. And in reality, these Gods require worship from all humans whether they be atheists or theists.

The 'God of Inner Peace' is the first God. Without serving this God of Inner Peace man will turn to the destruction of humankind, self destruction and suicide.

The other God is that of the 'God of Nature' which makes itself evident with it natural laws or commandments.

No matter how defiant the atheist or theist is...we will ALL bow to the God of Nature sooner or later.

Speaking of nature, it is also good to keep in touch with the lesser cousin of the God of Nature which is seeking peace with our own nature through right actions.

Yes, learning to accept the nature of all things is an important part of the equation for living a life at peace, but there is a missing link that needs to be added to this equation. The missing link is marrying authenticity with rightness.


The formula for success is: Authentic Nature + Right Actions = Peace


The formula for failure is: Authentic Nature + Wrong Actions = Destruction


There are many 'natures' in our life to be mindful of - we have our own nature, the nature other persons we have contact with, as well as the 'nature' of nature itself. But, just becoming a 'blissninny' and blindly accepting the various natures will not give us peace. To apply this tool rightly, we need to adopt a life of proportionality, balance and wisdom.

How do we learn to live a more balanced life?

By using rational thought patterns and by putting reason before passion. Then we can view our actions as balanced or not, for without rational thought we have nothing to weigh in our quest for balance.

There are 3 main components to rational thinking.

1 - Rationality requires reflection.

Many of us are too busy to reflect. Other times our minds our consumed with troubles and out of control passions. Over thinking also plays a part in keeping our minds working in the wrong direction. An old Buddhist saying tells us that a constantly busy mind cannot heal itself. Reflection time must be 'open thinking' time where we look at both ends of the spectrum and everything in between for answers and choices and not just the comfortable ones we are accustomed to. We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking that we used when we created them. Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."

2- Rationality is the ability to anticipate consequences.

Reflection pays big part in this as well as past experiences and the process of extrapolation from past experiences and others mistakes. Weighing and balancing are two key words that come into play. Sometimes 'gambling' is more a component to those that 'shoot from the hip' and worry about consequences later. Many of us get stuck in a place of justifying our actions with blindness to the consequences. Our actions are ego based and not truth or rational based. "First one decides the goal, then one gathers the principles or delusions to justify reaching this goal." Principles or delusions? This depends on whether the mind is being used for rational thought or if out of control passions are in command.

3 - Rationality requires adherence to certain standards.

There are many standards to consider and each individual has to judge these for themselves. Another name for a standard is a rule. Many people are defiant against 'rules' and they are entitled to not follow the rules as they please. But such freedom has a price to pay, so they should not balk at paying the price for their freedom with the necessary consequences that come from not following the rules.

Knowing what is true and developing wisdom to be at peace are two very important qualities for the confused spiritual practitioner to develop.

With respect to myself, I try to balance wisdom with that of peace perception.

For whether something is a truth or not, it still has to pass the peace test.

There are many things that are true and good in life, but they will still end up destroying my peace if I let them.

Usually the dividing line for such 'good today ~ bad tomorrow' questions are rooted in the area of balance and proportionality.

If you don't know what I am talking about, then I will give you this example. we need water to drink and air to breath in order to live. But, even though water and air are life sustaining, too much water and too much air will become life destroying...proportionality and balance divides life from death. I always ask if a person, place, thing or activity promotes my peace or destroys my peace?

It is important to work in a a balanced way. So borrowing a tool from the Buddhists, I practice compassion for others, so I ask this same question of peace promotion or peace destruction in my neighbors the best I am able to.

But just turning to Buddhism is not all it takes if your goal is to live a flourishing human life. Yes, Buddhism contain many truths, but it also contains many non truths as well.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=9.0


But isn't that how man made religion is? It all comes from imperfect man so imperfect man can never make anything as complex as religious thought perfect?

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=318.0

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=133.0


Yet, we as humans must still serve the God of Peace or we will self-destruct , so we must give it our 'best efforts' irrespective of how imperfect those efforts are.

A simple tool to smooth out the everyday fluctuations in our life is: forget perfection and look for direction. We can either be going up, down or sideways with our goals. Use this direction tool to get a quick gauge of your inner spiritual condition.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=91.0


As I list at the end of my posts I am a practical philosopher. As such I am not into theory so much but concentrate of practice. The rest of this post discusses how I apply this practice when it comes to seeking guidance fromThe God of Nature and The God of Inner Peace.

Accepting a persons nature must always be balanced with rational thought as I said above. We can accept another's natures as an abuser and be at peace that they have this nature, but we do not have to stay in close proximity of them ourselves.

The missing link so to speak with the blissninny that accepts everything blindly is; they are neglecting to align one's authentic nature with that of finding inner peace.

The serenity prayer that 12 step addiction groups use tells us we have 2 possibilities to find peace...by Change or by Acceptance.

(Some ask me why should I follow that prayer since I am not an addict? Addict or not, concentrate on what is said and not on who says what. Truth never changes no matter how it is gist wrapped.)

We should always seek out change for the most part and practice acceptance as the last resort.

That is the general rule. Change first - Accept later.

For without feeling anger or discontent we wound not seek out change - as in changing our environment that might be an unhealthy one for us. So, we should never regret feeling anger, but just as anger and excretion are two naturally occurring parts of being a human, we should let them serve us instead of we being enslaved to them.

In Sexual Compulsives Anonymous they have a tool called abstention. They abstain the best way they can from people places or things they have found to be detrimental to their recovery program efforts from past experience with them. My recovery success is based a lot on abstaining from people, places and things that do not mesh well with me and if I cannot avoid them, then I work to make the unavoidable fit better by changing things on my end. Yes, we cannot change others, but we do usually have control of ourselves and how we participate in dealing with others.

Even though we cannot completely change or wipe our many problem areas in our life we can usually change *some* aspects of most problems to make them more bearable. So, I am always looking for small changes to make in the right direction and this recovery orientation towards the direction of change helps by giving hope of possible larger future change as well.

When Socrates was a young man he had to make a decision to make with which road to take in his own study of philosophical knowledge. He looked at his predecessors and their study of science and nature and also weighed his talents in this area. His conclusion? "I am not of the nature to study nature." Socrates was at peace with his own nature. We only have so much of 'us' to spend, so spend it wisely. Fighting one's authentic nature spends our time and energies unwisely. The serenity prayer gives us the answer, "God / Higher Power, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference."

We can see this battle over accepting others nature happening all the time with the sexes. Many women say they can't understand men, just as many men say they can't understand women. In the bible it says that God's way is not man's way. Well, to further distill this we can say that God's way is not man's way and man's way is not woman's way. Every creature has it's way and when you can come to peace with this you will be on your own way to accepting life on life's terms and not your own.

To start on your peace journey look for insight into the other creatures suffering and problems. Each sex has their strong and weak points just as the yin and yang dictates. To change this would be to change the underlying duties and essence of that creature. It is of their nature for men and women to be men wand women. "Were I a nightingale, I would act the part of a nightingale; were I a swan, the part of a swan." ~ Epictetus

I had a mentor that I held in high esteem for his various talents in sports. As he aged he started to get back problems. One sport he excelled in was kayaking. Kayaking eventually had a particularly bad affect on back problems. At age 51, I cannot sit in a hard-shell whitewater boat for longer than 10 or 15 minutes before my back starts bothering me. This fellow had the same issues. What did I do with my back problem and kayaking? I accepted my nature and went to inflatable kayaks and can kayak for a few hours with only moderate back problems.

What did my mentor do?

He continued with hard-shell kayaking and made himself so uncomfortable he saw no other choice other that to kill himself and he blew his brains out.

My mentor did not have the ability to accept ones changing nature.

No flexibility gives us no hope and we get locked into tunnel vision with death as being the only option from escaping our pain.

Accepting others nature helps when we apply live and let live. It becomes much easier to do once we accept our own nature, then we can apply a little of this acceptance to another's right to exist. The Buddhist tool of compassion helps as well. It reminds me to look for insight into he other persons suffering. When we spend out time looking for insight into their suffering it does not leave much time for building up hatred against them. The two do not mix well. we cannot develop compassion and hatred for someone at the same time.

On some discussion lists the topics have come up of doing good for others. It seems some list members are not at peace with doing good. Whether they feel like they must be obligated to do or give a certain amount of themselves or their money. Or they feel something is wrong with them for not wanting to do more good, as society 'puts' the goodness conciseness on them. We are NOT required to do a certain amount of 'good' for others. I would say we are required to not harm others if we desire to be at peace.

In my own case, I donate a very small amount of money to charity and I give very little time to volunteer work. I give what is comfortable and natural for me to give. But, I do donate good in an area that is authentic and not forced for me with writing my posts and planting seeds of peace in others. As I plant the seeds in others, I water my own seeds of peace, so I get double benefits. Find your own strengths in this area, do what is natural and authentic for you. If you are uncomfortable with your life write on it to clarify what you would like to get on it. The world needs all sorts...for balance.

You can get some clarity on the authenticity issue if you ask yourself why you wish to do something?

What is your driving force?

Do you act from fear or act from desire of begins at peace?

Don't let others dictate your balance point to you. Just as no one could dictate to you when you have had enough to eat or drink, or how much money you have to spend. so it goes that no one can tell you how much of you that must be spent in the world to try to do good. The decision must come from within you.

My actions are based on inner peace and if I stray - there goes my peace - it is my choice.

Put your inner peace foremost and you will have your answer.

Fear or guilt based reasons for acting are not authentic and genuine. The persons actions are based on negative consequences otherwise they would not do them. I see this a lot on the Buddhist and Christian oriented discussion boards the practitioners are worried they will develop bad karma or go to hell for a mis-step.

They are not worried about peace...they are worried about pain. "People that practice religion are worried about going to hell - people that practice spirituality have already been to hell and don't want to go back." As I will tell you below in the section on Heidegger, "When you align real and authentic actions with those that promote inner peace you are moving closer to enlightenment."

Another area of nature that some disregard is that of natural law. I find that sometime spiritual practitioners neglect the natural laws that govern our bodies and suffer in this area from lack of living a balanced life. Some of us forget we are spiritual beings residing in physical bodies living in physical world and governed and as such are governed by the following 3 branches of laws:

1 - Natural or physical laws

2 - Man made laws

3 - Divine or spiritual laws

Proportionality and balance used to be taught in ancient Greek educational curriculum. Unfortunately, these studies have gone the way of the dinosaurs. There is no one magic bullet in life that will fix all our problems. Living a good life is composed of many qualities and when we reach for one thing only with thoughts of disregarding the rest of life's laws we will be out of balance. To be at peace is a natural ability that is instilled within us all - you only have to become balanced to be at peace. When Socrates was in his cell awaiting execution, his friend Crito visited him offering plans of escape and the resources of many of Socrates friends to help him set up a new life away from Athens. Socrates responded to Crito, "My friend Crito, your zeal is invaluable, if a right one; but if wrong, the greater the zeal the greater the evil..."

Socrates accepted his fate and practiced virtue by being at peace and living within the 3 branches of laws that governed him. This is what the author James Allen had in mind with his famous quote from his book "As a Man Thinketh" ~ "Circumstances do not make the man - they revel him to himself." Manmade law imprisoned Socrates and man made laws sentenced him to death. Socrates chose not to break the law, even when it was a simple task to escape with the help of his friends and live instead of die. For Socrates, circumstances did not make him into anything other than what he 'genuinely' was.

If your an atheist or agnostic, you may not think much of divine or spiritual laws, but you still have to answer to natural and man made laws. Don't get confused by the term spiritual. I am not always referring to organized religion when I use such terms. Atheist or not, there are many mysteries in the world. The spiritual studies deals with such mysteries, for the root of spiritualism is that of the unseen and the force behind it all. Some people say they can defy man made laws as well as divine laws, but no matter how defiant the person or addict is - no one escapes natural laws. To be successful in life we have to put some effort in spiritual work and some effort in physical work for a good balance as well as be mindful of not violating manmade laws.

It is by restructuring my life to accept and live within all these laws that I have been able to find much peace...by living within my means. My prior life was just the opposite. I lived a life that violated all 3 branches of these laws. As I wrote in my earlier post 'Putting Peace First' ..."All our actions have consequences and many of these actions are producing consequences that rob us of inner peace." If we expect to escape from the consequences of ALL our actions - that is delusional thinking. Desire plays a big part in guiding our actions. If we have a constant supply of never ending desires that end in the disruption of our peace what chance have we to find serenity? To find peace I had to rework my life when it came to excessive desires as well as being mindful of living within these 3 branches of laws.

Accepting ones nature as well as the nature of others is not the total answer to the mystery of being at peace.

Yes, we can accept our nature, but if our nature continues to be that of peace destroying instead of peace promoting, then some additional work needs to be done.

Sometimes we can have a say at our nature and other times we cannot. Martin Heidegger, a famous existentialist philosopher wrote much on authenticity. While Heidegger could be arguably be said to have 'written the book' on authenticity and genuineness, Heidegger was also a Nazi supporter. Now, we can sometimes blame such affiliation on design, such as being forced against our will. But in this case, Heidegger seemed to be a Nazi by desire and not one by design. I discussed this in an earlier post 'Addict by design ~ Addict by Desire'

For authenticity and genuineness to be of real value, they must also be in the 'right direction' as the Buddhists set fourth in the eightfold path. Yes, Heidegger new about authenticity, he seemed authentic and genuine in his actions, but fell short of the other half of the equation of marrying authenticity with 'right' actions. Heidegger accepted his nature, but his natural and authentic nature was one that was not that of 'peace promoting' in nature within himself, nor peace promoting for others. Academic smarts are no guarantee of peace smarts. As I wrote in my own post on authenticity, "When you align real and authentic actions with those that promote inner peace you are moving closer to enlightenment."

BTW, if you made a study of such a person as Heidegger while looking into the subject of authenticity. Would finding our his Nazi affiliations blind or prejudice you to what he had to say about authenticity? Would you spend your time trying to 'prove him wrong' to make your ego right? If you liked the philosophy of Aristotle, but discovered Aristotle promoted slavery. Would that blind you to all of his teaching? The nature of humans is that they are imperfect. If we only seek out perfect humans to learn from the pickings will be slim...really the pickings will be zero.

But, even with all our imperfections, many of us contain small perfection's to learn from if the student is willing to look for them and be open when they surface. The answer to these question of prejudicial blindness will tell you a lot about your own nature. If your nature is that of passion before reason and a tendency to being blinded to the truth due to prejudice, then reread what I wrote in my earlier post 'Our Guiding light Prejudice or Truth' Always remember, truth stands on it own and is without political or religious affiliations ... just as nature rules ... so does truth.

Accepting one authentic nature, balancing authenticity with doing good, not harboring hatred or fear, being generous and compassionate to others, being at peace within and with all - these are all qualities of the enlightened mind. When Socrates was leaving his trial after being condemned to death he had these parting words. I'll leave you with them as they show how one man applied the equation of Authentic Nature + Right Actions = Peace (Translated by Benjamin Jowett)

"Wherefore, O judges, be of good cheer about death, and know this of a truth - that no evil can happen to a good man, either in life or after death. He and his are not neglected by the gods; nor has my own approaching end happened by mere chance. But I see clearly that to die and be released was better for me; and therefore the oracle gave no sign. For which reason also, I am not angry with my accusers, or my condemners; they have done me no harm, although neither of them meant to do me any good; and for this I may gently blame them.

Still I have a favor to ask of them. When my sons are grown up, I would ask you, O my friends, to punish them; and I would have you trouble them, as I have troubled you, if they seem to care about riches, or anything, more than about virtue; or if they pretend to be something when they are really nothing - then rebuke them, as I have rebuked you, for not caring about that for which they ought to care and for thinking that they are something, when they are really nothing. And if you do this, I and my sons will have received justice at your hands.

The hour of departure has arrived, and we go our ways - I to die, and you to live. Which is better God only knows."




Take care,


V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2

I do. :whistle

And its intriguing that the question can even be posed, in a world full of the religious. Else if one didn't have cause to notice the silence, there wouldn't be reason to ask.

Given that there are many who do hear from God, the question may actually be: Why aren't you listening to God?

Perhaps the answer would be, because jesus said he isn't speaking to everyone.

also didnt' the diety say this too, unless of course you beg for forgivness and hit the local church to tell you how to get to god.... i am suspect to this god/life lives in all one doesn't need directions actually one who is seeking exterior to oneself has not found anything .. one wouldn't spend time con-vincing anyone of anything if they have found spirit... it si the fool who thinls he is the only one who knows..you'd you agree GW????

Well actually, not being a believer and going by gods breath alone, I would say reason or questioning, was forbidden in gods word. One may be ignorant, and ask god for knowledge. But when they ask, what ever comes can not be questioned. Perhaps that is the issue, for those that believe those that question have no right. Because they hold faith they do not, by gods word, have that right. So it must then apply to everyone else as well. (See:James 1:5-7)

But then in 2Tim 3:16-17, all scripture is said to be god-breathed, as I mentioned. So one would wonder if all scripture is such, why sinful mortal men determined which of that breathed word was fit to be bound and declared to be the official version.

And it is not christian to condemn those to whom the bible does not speak. Or those that do not accept that god, or that there is a god. Because to do so is to condemn those jesus spoke about, when he said his purpose was not to be heard by everyone, and thus lead all to salvation from the sin they carry from their god. Matthew 13:10-13.

So it's not a matter of questioning gods word, in so much as gods word spells it out rather bluntly. And while there shall ever be the defense of context, if that were indeed true, the bible would serve no purpose but as a bound book of fable, because in the context of the 21st century, thousands of year old doctrine means nothing in relativity to it. And if it is then said, but gods word is eternal and unchanging, it may be observed the "Version" that was made to exist by men, would lend evidence there is yet again cause to disagree.

not everyone wants to hear.....

randomhit10

That may be answered by saying, what some say, claiming it to be gods words, isn't worth listening to. Because if one then stands a chance of becoming like that, for the hearing, they've lost something vital and good in themselves, at the cost of paying attention to what some example, through their own inspiration.

Some of the most vicious, self-serving, arrogant people I've met, claim to know god. I wonder, when I see that, which one they mean. And then I realize, it doesn't matter. Because in their world, they please it, being as they are. And as an Atheist, I can then say, I'm happy to be who I am, if changing my mind, would look like that.

Why do we expect the Creator to speak?

We are able to live our lives without some big cheese giving directions.

We have everything we need to get by within us.

I would always wonder at faith by the book. It is said, of all god forms, that they are not able to be fully known by their human creation. Moses, in the old testament, was told he could not look on the face of god and live. He could not walk, wearing shoes, on sacred ground. So then how could humans ever believe god only speaks to those he directed or breathed his words to, so that they might then be inspired to only release certain "books" , of those words, to be read in one bound book, by those that hold faith they are all god has to say!?

The christian scriptures, as well as the jewish, from which they were taken in large part, all agree god can not be known through mortal consciousness. If we're believed to be unworthy, because of what we are as sinful humans, how then are we worthy to hear god speak at all!? But if god spoke to the unworthy and gave his word to them, how is it they, being so worthless, decided they had the power or took that as inspiration too, to determine which of gods words were not fit to be included in that bound volume that is claimed to be gods word!? So we now have those "lost books of the bible" that don't "count", because their not in the man-made version.

And why is it, for anyone that claims to believe in god, that it is said by some that believe also, that one has to believe in the bible, or in a religion, to really make that work? How is it , in order to believe in the greatest power in existence, one has to abide by man made doctrines, in order to be said to truly know what they're talking about when they claim they know god?!

It seems to me religion is survived because people believe in it. When, it would seem to me, if there was such a thing as god, and all that that would have to mean to qualify it as such, that since all things come from that power, one doesn't have to believe other peoples interpretation of it, even in the institutional thinking that is erected to represent it, to know what it means. It seems that some religious people believe more in the religion than they dare to believe god to be bigger than that. I think I came to that conclusion long ago, when someone calling themselves religious told me that if one doesn't have religion, they don't know god.

I remember thinking, it's like that chicken/egg question. Which came first. God, or religion. For some, there is no difference. I find that odd. Analogous to a sense of satisfaction, if only a chicken looks like an egg.

i communicate with Him (Jesus) just fine...i did not always...i realized i was not listening.

randomhit10

Then that is a blessing for you, and I wish you all the best.

God isn't silent. God can't be in the presence of sin, which you are in right now (not trying to comdemn you) that's why you don't hear him.

It's very rare that you actually hear him with your ears, most of the time is through your spirit.

oh and about the unclean thing, ever hear of adam and eve? them and their childred were punished for eating the apple (disobeyed God) that created sickiness and deases to punish us....

thank you for your kind words...i wish you all the best also in your walk.

randomhit10

excellent post....the silence is in our state of being, not God's.

randomhit10

I thank you.

Correct me if I'm wrong... But wasn't our state of being created by God in the first place?

I would say you are spot on. If the bible has anything to say about it, all things come from god, including what is the human condition that requires saving ourselves from the sinful nature god manifest upon the generations, after Adam and Eve lived up to Omniscience expectations. They simply didn't have the knowledge to choose not to eat of the apple, until after, when they were then given knowledge of good and evil, which then provides the discretion factor of making a choice between them. (good or evil) Humans, so it is written, were cursed because it's all part of gods plan. That's why that tree of their fall, was installed in paradise by god.

Have you ever watched the movie, Devils Advocate!? Masterpiece of a Pacino part. He plays John Milton. This line pretty much sums it up in Hollywood script speak:
Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' ..... (Quote continues at link)

it is in our nature, to be self-centered, not to listen or take direction well...this is by our choice...we choose to listen or not...yes i guess our state was created by God and He also created our ability to make choices in all matters.

randomhit10

And yet, it may be said it is , on our side, not a true free choice. When, within the domain of omniscience, it is predeterminism. So what we think is a choice, is actually just part of gods plan, as the one that knows all things. From the numbers of hairs on our head, to when a sparrow falls from flight.

I find this to be a very good movie love John milton....excellent flick....

i understand what you are saying...the outcomes are known by God based on which path we decide to follow...but we do not know the outcome, usually, ahead of time ( not counting what i already know will happen if i make my wife really mad )...this is why people are trying esp, ect...so we can be like God, just like what satan told Eve about the forbidden fruit.

randomhit10