I first heard about this story while listening to talk radio on my XM satellite radio. I was shocked at such idiocy but I really shouldn't be surprised. You can read about it here... Catholic Parish Fires Organist For Selling Sex Toys
I for one agree with many of the comments left at the website at the end of the article. Anyone care to comment... have an opinion?

I think the Church was quite within its right to relieve the organist of her duties. Being active in the church gives a person a responsibility to uphold the tenants of the Faith. If a person's life is seen to contradict the Faith, then how does this impact on the image of the Church as a whole? If the Church teaches one thing, but those who are active members (ie, the visible members who are on the pulpit singing or playing or welcoming or preaching) are acting contrary to that, all it shows is an atmosphere of hypocrisy.

Though I'm sure some happily married couples do make their way to shops to purchase sex toys to stimulate their relationships, I'd guess a goodly number more are not married and perhaps not even in a relationship. For a Church that teaches the immorality of sexual promiscuity, this has to look nothing other than hypocritical for the visible members of the church to be involved with just such an industry.

And so again to reiterate, the Church was quite within its rights to ask the organist to choose to live according to the beliefs of the church, or to step down. The same would apply to me at my church. If I were seen to be living my life contrary to the Bible, I would be asked to step down from the Drama Team and the Music Team (and if I were still involved with the Youth Group, I'd be asked to step down from there as well). I don't even know why this topic is an issue, it should be a given that if you attend a church with specific beliefs and wish to participate in the active running of said church, you should abide by the beliefs of that Church.

Regards, PA

Isn't that what an organist is supposed to do?

This is just hillarious LOL

such a scandal for the church

And I'm guessing that your entire post here is based solely on the title of this thread and that you didn't even read the article itself. The woman who was fired is a cancer survivor. After surviving cancer the cancer treatment left her sexually dysfunctional. A fellow cancer survivor, who also was left sexually dysfunctional, told her about the "romance enhancer" business and that's how she got started her own business in the "romance enhancer" business. In the radio news report where I initially heard this story she is quoted as saying that she feels that it is her ministry to help fellow Christian woman who have survived cancer and have been left sexually dysfunctional due to the cancer treatment. Now... I ask you.. how in the hell is what she is doing against the Vatican teachings? It's not! That church is no better than those tribes in africa who believe it's ok to mutilate the genetalia of all it's females to keep them from feeling sexual gratification.

No, I did read the article, but I think her reasons are immaterial. The sex industry serves more than just married Christian couples, and there is no way that this woman can run a business and not serve these people as well as her Christian brethren. Indeed, her motives for starting this business was that she is "empowering women and helping them strengthen their relationships.". She is clearly not doing this solely for the benefit of married Christian women.

All in all, as I said, I agree with the stance of the Church (and I'm not Catholic) and I don't think her cancer is an issue. It's a Red Herring, as is the comments on pedophile priests in the article. Both comments (imo) are designed to take the focus away from what this issue truly is about - an active member of a church living a life contrary to the teachings of said church.

Just my 20 cents worth (inflation makes me pay more than 2 cents )

I beg to differ PA. She can serve Christian women only if she so chooses. The business that she is in is like unto any other business that many women are into who are trying to make extra money... like Pampered Chef, Tupperware, Avon, ect. She is the romance enhancer company representative. As she spreads the word about her products any potential customer can ask to "host" one of her parties so she can show what her romance enhancer company has to offer. The person who is "hosting" the party gets others to come to this party to also be potentail customers. So in a sense yes, if this woman wants her customers to mainly be Christian women then yes she has a lot more control over her who her customers are that lets say that of an adult store owner where every Tom, Dick, Harry, Sally and Jane walks in off the street and buys from the store.

And by the way, do you know anything about the cancer treatments and what it can potentially do to a *spam filter*ually speaking? If you don't, I suggest that you research it. Maybe you wouldn't think it's such a "red herring in this instance. In fact here is one link to help you get started. http://www.cancerbackup.org.uk/Healthprofe...leffectsinwomen

It sickens me to think that there are people out there in this world who think that it's ok for a woman to be sexually disfunctional when she doesn't want to be all because of religious dogma. It truely sickens me. If they believe in their God so much don't they realize that God made a woman to enjoy sex? She is just not a piece of meat to lay there for the a mans sexual gratification. If they believe in their God so much they would understand that their God made sex to be enjoyed by both partners... it was made to bring them closer spiritually. And hey if a sex toy helps why the heck not?! Because Vatican doctrine says no-no? The Vatican can kiss my a***!

Hypocricy at it's finest. The church fires this lady for selling a product that is perfectly legal for a little extra cash and then turns around and takes a Priest that has sodomized young boys and hides there crimes so they can still serve the church. Thats just not right oh wait a sec yes it is

Its my view there is a real lack of compassion with many structured forms of thinking. Its not just with religious dogma but also other forms of insensitivity.

I was always under the impression that the golden rule of harming no one comes first. Then helping others and yourself to enjoy being alive should not be considered a crime but a blessing.

I think it best that compassion is applied equally. The truly lost leaders of morality also need understanding and forgivness.

John

Very interesting discussion.

But, Lady Valkyrie, I think you are reading too deeply into it.

Firstly, the women was a mostly a volunteer. It sounds as though she was relieved of her volunteering duties over a period of time.

The Priest (who seems to be making the decisions, not the Vatican) has deemed it inappropriate for her to continue volunteering because of her insistance on selling the 'enhancement' devices. All he is really saying (IMHO) is that he cannot allow her to be a 'leader' in the church and continue to do that. He has not banished her from being a member of the church, he just doesn't want her in a role that could be in conflict with the Churches Teachings. He is in no way saying she cannot do what she wants in her private life (which she is choosing to make public). He is just saying it is inconsistant, and he doesn't want her to be a church leader.

It is not a Vatican statement that women have no right to be sexually gratified.

It's still hypocritical, on both sides. Why be in that church if the church has a problem with sexual toys? And if the church really believes in its doctrines (and the souls of its parishioners), then what's with the double standard -- don't ask, don't tell? In the church's eye, this woman is flagrantly "sinning," as simple as that.

And yes, there is more to it than just the surface because it's about hypocrisy.

Yup, I see your point. But this Priests POV may be that sinners are welcomed to the church as parishoners, just not as leaders of the parish.

I can't argue with the hypocrisy of much of it though. There is lots of that.

LOL well then, there goes that tired old line about "We're all sinners" right out the window

That's also a good point, if you're a Christian. But why then stop this woman from selling her sex toys (blatantly), if everyone is a "sinner," in a Christian POV? "Who are we to judge?, " some people say.

Perhaps if she would have molested a child or three she would/could have kept her job.......and yes it is sad.

Church fires organist ...
Maybe he should have stuck to playing on his organ. It can get pretty lonely in that organ loft on a cold, winter's night!!

Maybe they should have just shuffled her from church to church and hope no one finds out what she's doing....oh, wait..they only use that option for their priests.

If she'd only focused on the choir boys she'd probably still have her job.

EDITED TO SAY: I just scrolled back up and saw Zandore's comment. Great minds think alike!

Paranoid Android,

I beg to differ.

I do agree with you that it is an organization and that it has the right to dictate who it feels is best suited to lead as you say they have 'their standards'. However, their reasons for her dismissal is suspect.
It isn't a red herring, to use the example of pedophile priests when to quote you, 'an active member of the church living a life contrary to the teachings of said church' but still being in a position of leadership (or perceived leadership) as in this woman's case.
If she is not acceptable in the eyes of the organization for selling sex toys (which are legal) and the toys she is selling is for a woman's gratification but they will move, not expel or prosecute (considering what the priest/s did is not only illegal but a sin) is a tacit example of absolute male rule in the church and speaks volumes that a man's transgressions are lessor evils. Especially if they have invested a lot of time and money in his training. Her, she's a volunteer, what are they out by asking her to step down?

The Catholic church gave up it's right a long time ago to be considered an institution of moral standards and godliness and with each generation it continues to confirm it.

That's my twenty cents. Now we're up to forty!
Keep this up and we'll be able to go out and eat after this debate is over!
Regards,
Mabon.

More of the spiritual blackmail and control of the Roman Church. Like the believers are too stupid to think for themselves...

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

The church is certainly guilty of the past transgressions, and I think ANYONE who was involved in the coverup or the actual crime of pedophilia deserves prosecution to the fullest extent of the law.

But, that leap is a bit far to compare to this case. If the Priest would have knowingly let the woman stay on as an organist, isn't he then guilty of hypocracy that way too? I think he made the right decision. He gave the woman a chance, and she made her choice. If the church as an organization the right to choose thier leaders, why can't they exercise that right without being called hypocrits? If this Priest WAS one of the sicko pedophiles, then you definatly have a point, but to lump them all together is unfair.

Hello supervike.

If I implied that I thought that this priest was a pedophile it wasn't my intention. If the Catholic church as a whole hadn't made a point of sheltering known pedophiles then it wouldn't be fair to include it in the argument, that was my point.
The priest in this particular church may have been a decent fellow, since he did give her a choice. The point is he shouldn't have. There is nothing in the bible that says anything about it what she was selling, there is something in the bible about having sex outside of marriage and rape. If those are their standards and they expect their congregation to live up to them but do not hold church leaders to the same, is hypocritical.

Do you want in on the dinner?
Mabon.

Why sure!

The first course will be on me.

Very good points you have made. Not saying I agree 100% with you but yeah, the Catholics may have to reap what they sow.

That's cool! I'll get the next course!


Hey! you make good points yourself! I enjoy a good spirited debate!

What really saddens me by this type of controversy is not the black eye that the church (meaning the institution and its leaders) have given itself with hypocritical behavior, but for the parishioners that are caught in the middle. Such things can cripple a church and ruin a community (fellowship of people).
Regards,
Mabon.

I really wish the priest gave exact details as to what exact rules she was in violation of. Throughout this whole thread I've been wondering if someone who happens to be a Catholic would enlighten us to what exactly the Vatican teachings are against romance enhancers. Since no one has come forward I did my own research.

Catechism Of The Catholic Church
Part Three: Life In Christ

Offenses Against Chastity

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure: The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146

Now I'm confused... if a Catholic husband and wife are using romance enhancers (sex toys) during their sexual intercourse... how are they in violation of the above rules? If the organist who was fired is selling these romance enhancers to other Christian women who are then using them during sexual intercourse with their husbands, how is the organist in violation of the above rules? The organist made it clear that she is using this business as her ministry to help other Christian women who have been affected with the same sexual dysfunction as she has due to the cancer treatments.

Hello Lady Valkyrie.

That is a good find and does raise the questions of why she was asked to step down. Honestly only the priest could answer why he felt it necessary to ask her to step down. Perhaps he felt she was 'selling' sex or that she talked too openly about it. The comedy of this is if he asked her to step down to avoid a scandal.

Regards,
Mabon.

I do think he was trying to avoid a problem and brought scandelous things to light in the process.

I am reminded of the saying, judge not lest ye be judged. In a church community there are conventional points of view around sex toys. These tend to follow leadership teachings. These are the systems we have created to form our world view. In many ways each one of us is a part of what we have created for our particular view of things and for the overall conflict relating to diverse points of view. This is the very reason why compassion helps expand personal views and leads to less stress and more harmony for diverse thinking.

It is easy to find fault with a view you dislike. It is not easy to see why your feelings around these views reflect an aspect of your thinking that is out of balance. We are all mirrors for one another. So its my view that compassion creates an energy that leads a person to see some things that are out of balance in their life.

Since all of us are in a process of awakening to one degree or another, it is wise to realize none of us has all the answers.

John

I don't think the Priest is saying there is a specific 'rule' she broke. Just that her involvement in what the 'normal' parish goers would subscribe to was scandalous behavior was against the overall spirit of being a church leader.

But, just out of curiosity, let's take the Catholicism out of the equation. Would you feel a Superintendent of a School was within his rights to ask a daycare volunteer to step down because they were involved in selling sex toys?

Musician Canned for Focus on Wrong Organ
The Associated Press
Wednesday, May 30, 2007; 11:06 PM

NEW FRANKEN, Wis. -- A Catholic priest has removed his church's organist and choir director from her duties saying her sale of sex toys was not "consistent with Church teachings."

Linette Servais, 50, played the organ and sung with the choir for 35 years. Much of her work as choir director and organist was done without pay. When her parish priest asked to meet with her, she thought it was to say thank you.

Instead, she was told to quit her sales job with company known as Pure Romance or she would lose her position in the church.

Pure Romance in Loveland, Ohio, is a $60 million per year business that sells spa products and sex toys at homes parties attended by women. It has 15,000 consultants like Servais.

She said her decision was not hard: She began working with Pure Romance after a brain tumor and treatment left her sexually dysfunctional. The job allows her to help other women who have similar problems.

"After I got over the initial shock, I prayed over this a long time," she said. "I feel that Pure Romance is my ministry."

The Rev. Dean Dombroski felt differently, removing her from the choir loft just before Thanksgiving and gradually taking away other church duties. Servais can no longer take pictures during First Communion services or lead the committee planning St. Joseph's annual late-summer picnic.

Dombroski said he couldn't discuss the situation because it involves personnel. But in a letter to his rural congregation, he wrote: "Linette is a consultant for a firm which sells products of a sexual nature that are not consistent with Church teachings. Because parish leaders are expected to model the teaching of our faith ... she could stay on as the choir director/organist or she could continue to be a consultant but she could not do both."

Servais responded with her own three-page letter to church members, saying she felt compelled to help other women, especially those suffering from problems caused by cancer.

Many choir members quit in support, she said, and some have gathered at her home on occasional Thursdays to sing hymns.

"Father Dean made it sound so sinful," she said. "There is so much more to this business than toys."



Now it's quite clear that the priest says, which I highlight in red, that what she was doing was against the churches teachings, hence my question what rule exactly is it that she is in violation of. Seeing that it's a Catholic church we then must look at the Catechism which I've already touched on...

And as for the whole, "Let's not allow her to be in a leadership position because she sells sex toys..." notice I hightlighted in red that she is no longer allowed to even take a freakin picture in the church! For heaven's sake does one have to be in a "leadership" role in order to take a picture in the dang church?! I don't think so!

As to your question... I have three kids in school... a 15 year old boy getting ready to turn 16, a 13 year old girl getting ready to turn 14, and an 11 year old boy. I personally don't give a rat's rear what any parent who volunteers at the schools my children attend do in the privacy of their own home or bed room for that matter, so long as it's not harming anyone and is not illegal.

Well, I don't think they will be any specific rule that you are looking for. It's not going to say in the Catholic Handbook.

Rule 4235: Thou Shant not peddle thine dildos, nor the edible panties, nor the lubrication gel that gets hot when you blow on it.

If you are looking for a rule she is breaking, your not going to find it. It is not CONSISTENT with the teachings of the church. That is all he is saying. Taking photographs may not seem like a leader role, but it is a 'perk'. All they are asking in their PRIVATE organization is that if you choose to sell sex toys, don't be a volunteer in our parish. Most likely because the Priest cannot reconcile the two behaviors.

As for asking a volunteer to step down from a School District for questionable private lives. ....my point is that it happens ALL THE TIME, but it doesn't reach national news. This Priest is being held accountable for dislike and distrust of the Vatican....it makes good press.

Ask yourself honestly, would you really feel comfortable with the porn store owner being the chaperone for your daughters field trip?

This Priest was totally out of order ,even if she had been a prostitute .what if she had sold automatic weapons ,would he have sacked her, ? I bet some one in his his congregation sells them.How did he know she sold sex toys ?had some god fearing parishioner told him? some "holier than thou " type .and to label all priests as pedophiles is equally out of order especially the emphasis on Catholic priests as if no other denomination practiced this abomination when it is widespread amongst all religions and professions ie scoutmasters and youth leaders who volunteer their services to enable them to get near to children without raising suspicion.whatever this priests motives were they don't stand scrutiny


fullywired

Rule 4235, had me rolling on the floor!
It's understandable that the priest can't reconcile the two behaviors a parishioner selling sex toys and being a prominent person in that church. But the matter is that this shows a double standard and that it shows the hypocrisies in the leaders and how they address these types of matters. Not this priest in particular but the whole.
Would I feel comfortable letting a porn store owner chaperoning a child's/children's field trip. Why not. Is selling something make that person more prone to impropriety? That may be a slippery slope. Priests are supposed to be telling people about eternal salvation and it doesn't stop a segment of them committing indecent acts on their charges. The point is that the sex was brought into this debate, the idea of what is proper and what isn't proper and how the C.C. handles it and how they handle differently, different members.

Regards,
Mabon.

Yes, I would be comfortable with a porn store owner being a chaperone for my daughter's field trip. I'm pretty darn sure that they wouldn't be bringing porn or any sex toys on the field trip trying to sell them to the children or to the teachers or other chaperones that may be there. And if they did try something like that I'm pretty confident that the school district would take care of such individuals and turn them over to the police. Would you get bent out of shape if someone chaperoned your daughter's field trip who was a pharmasist who sold the morning after pill in their pharmacy and you happened to be pro-life... or how about someone who was of a radically different religion than your own such as... oh let's say... Satanism... or how about someone who was either gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, or trans-gendered and you happened to be a homophobe.... what then?

We are discussing this issue because this story shows how religious dogma can indeed keep some people, especially women, in bondage to the male dominated church. It plainly shows that they are not living for Christ but rather living for man made rules and regulations all to keep up an image of alleged godliness to keep the money rolling in and the sheep in the sheep pen.

Now why would you choose that one!



Well, I may have to concede with you. I think I'd want to be open minding enough to let the porn store owner be a chaperone, but If push came to shove, I'm not sure how I would react. But, the women in bondage thing, although I don't know if this case has it directly, there is definitely a subtext present. My first thought was that it is over reactionary to claim it, but I think you actually may be onto something...What if it was a male parishioner...and he was found out to be a a regular at the local nudie bar....I wonder how the preacher would have reacted then.

Anyhow, as my new friend and eating partner Mabon stated earlier...this is a good spirited debate! One of the better ones I have had in my short stay. Thanks very much....

Now, I should go and try to rethink this....maybe I can come up with some more ammo....

LOL! Fullywired your comment reminds me of Monty Python's 'Holy Hand grenade' used to blow thine enemies to bits, o Lord! But on a serious note that does pose a big question or series of questions.
How did the priest find out about her side job? Would it have been different if she had been selling guns? Would if have been handled differently if she had been a man? Those are very good questions.

John A Spera I do agree with you. I do think that we are mirrors for each other and we can (IMHO) get really cheesed off when we see in others that we don't care for about ourselves. Ouch! that does pinch the ego a bit. I hate it when that happens!

I do feel sorry for the congregation as I said before, not the ones that are there out of obligation or for a sense of spiritual superiority but the ones that are there for guidance and comfort they are caught in the middle of this. But in my opinion each plays a part. The priest may have felt obligated to adhere to a position which he sincerely believes in, that is why I am unwilling to vilify the individual and am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I can even sympathize with him not wanting to continue to sell her products not because they are bad but that it does seem to cater or fall in line with the porn industry. Of which I have no doubt that the CC would consider objectionable.

But for me the story brought to our attention by Lady Valkyrie does show that the standards aren't upheld in any impartial fashion, for if they were there wouldn't be this debate.



Of course Lady Valkyrie you know as being the starter of this debate you are the guest of honor at dinner.
Regards,
Mabon.