This discussion seems to have cropped up a little bit on other threads recently (at least two threads that I can think of from memory). To avoid keeping those threads from heading off topic, I thought I'd start a thread here to discuss the rightness or wrongness of a leader of a church being paid for their duties.

As you may be aware if you have been following some other threads, I have no issue with a pastor getting paid. I think it is a necessity in the modern world for a pastor to be paid. They simply work too long in a week to be feasible for them to start another job to support their family. I do not think the role a pastor takes in a church can be compared to the life of Jesus, because Jesus' life was all about moving around from town-to-town sharing the good news of the Kingdom of God with everyone he met (he'd sleep under the stars more often than not, and had no family to feed). This is not the role of the pastor, imo. A pastor has been raised up to care for a specific group of people (a church - body of believers). They generally stay put in one place, and many have families to raise and care for.

If being a pastor was only about preaching once a week, I could perhaps understand that they not be paid, but the role of a pastor is so much more encompassing than that. Counseling, visiting church members, liasing with staff, being the primary point of contact for new people at the church, conducting weddings/funerals, visiting the sick - this is but a small section of the duties of a pastor. At the end of an average week, a pastor can work harder than most people with full time jobs, and get paid significantly less. Are we to ask them to stop being paid altogether after devoting 60 or 70 hours in a week to the care of the church, and then go and work another job just to feed their family?

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated.

Regards, PA

What on earth does a pastor need paper work for?? to do what?

Any preacher within christianity who claims that a true christian should live their lives close to how Jesus did...then they should lead by example
Jesus earned an honest living in his father trade...he preached for free

No preacher in christianity does this they all go for the dosh , otherwise they wouldnt do it..

I dont care what they claim to do..the fact of the matter is.....to go fourth and spread the word of God....doesn't mean do it for cash.

You can go on and on about how people may well have given Jesus bread ect...that didn't earn his keep...he earned his OWN keep by working as a carpetner.......he spread the word of his father for free<--according to the bible

shouldnt they do it out of the kindness of their own hearts?? Jesus did....and he still found time to earn an honest living

It looks as though people like that are too afraid of hard work

IMHO , a pastor is a shepherd, is the leader ,is the man of God leading ppl to God..who owns the Church? surly not the pastor or any other person who attends it..It takes money to operate it..now a true man of God who investes the money back into the church is in MO doing what he is surpose to do.a true Pastor spends the most of his time in devoting to Gods work rather it be pray for the body labor on the churh in any form or teaching the word or bible study or outreaching...his time is devoted to God..if you look and observe that pastor and see more money in his home , clothing , transportation, etc then soemthing isnt right...yes I agree that the pastor should be able to live and pay his bills but if he is taking more than giving back into the work of God then He wouldnt be IMO right with God...yes he should be blessed but not above the work of God which involves alot of the money ...If a pastor spends more money on his home, life , etc than the church then to me its not righht..IMO anyways

I dunno, BM. Before going to Theological College, the previous pastor at my church had completed a degree (I think it was Engineering, or something like that - can't quite remember) that would allow him to work on a six-figure salary. Instead, he went and studied a further four years at Bible College, only to come and work at our church for a salary virtually the same as the Australian average (more than $40,000 a year less than a cushy Engineering appointment). You seem to be under the impression that being a pastor is easy work, and that people who choose to be pastors do so because they are "too afraid of hard work". What is your basis for this judgement, if I may ask? Why do you believe being a pastor is such a cushy job? Is it the seven years of study that a pastor goes through, to work on a salary similar to a receptionist? Is it the oft-times 60+ hours a week that a pastor puts in (not including preparations for preaching) when said Receptionist goes home at 5pm sharp every single day? Is it the extra disposable income at the end of the week that the pastor ends up putting back into the church just to keep it running for another week? Is it the 3am wake-ups that a pastor has to go through when a church member is sick or distraught and needs to see the pastor immediately?

I'm sure there are some pastors that don't do work, and get paid ridiculous amounts of cash for their small appearances on the pulpit, but most pastors work a helluva lot harder than most people do for a helluva lot less money.

From what you have just said there, makes a paster look further from living life as a true christian..if being a true christian is living your life as close to Jesus as you can...........then all of the above is so far from it............COMPLETELY FAR FROM IT....Jesus was able to do this and still earn a propper living.........heck if you wanna talk about lattending to the sick and needy...UMM Jesus did that also healed plenty...and worked as a carpetner............he didnt ask people to pay him...........but pastors do

BIG DIFFERENCE

No offence PA, but you prechin to me about a pastor that you know of..dont change the fact that they dont live thier lives as close to Jesus as they think.........not one of them do........

Preists think they do..by not getting married, cuz they believe Jesus did not marry ect...but preists still get paid somehow...so do ministers....

I dont know one single preacher within christianity that preaches for free................its ALL ABOUT THE MONEY..nothing else other than money

People nowadays can easy make themselves pastors...pick up a bible, study it..then make yourself a self ordained preacher...its an easy way out of looking for a propper job

there are a few ways to look at it, why should one who is doing what society calls the highest calling get a pitiance for pay whilst we pay people who throw around a ball ridiculous amounts of money....on one hand and on the other i can't help but wonder if at the level of jesus or buddha getting paid would be of little to no concern....many times just doing something for the sake of just giving ( intention is everything i would imagine) brings all that you need to be able to do it whatever it is......I would like to think Jesus understood this too.....

A pastor's ministry should not be his job. Even Paul made a living as a tentmaker. Stop using people's guilt, fear and comfortability for monetary gain. It's the true evil of this world.

nuns get paid squat - they do it for the love of god. One of the pastors at the church owned land in Miami .

you preach because of your wanting to work for god. it turns out god is the almighty dollar for some.

These LEADERS claim a high degree of sanctification. Each claims to either have met with Jesus personally, seen Him in an open vision, been visited by angels, etc. . .Yet with only a cursory look into their personally lives and lifestyles one quickly sees how fraudulent their claims are. Some might want to say "these people do not represent the movement" or that I have "stacked the deck." The sad TRUTH of the matter is that these people are KEY PEOPLE in the movement. These are the acknowledged LEADERS. If what they promote does not work in their own lives why should anyone else believe them?

Bakker, Jim ---

Televangelist

Coe, Jack

Divine Healer, Evangelist

Dowie, John A.

Healer, 1st Restored "Apostle"

Gortner, Marjoe

Divine Healer, Child Evangelist

Grant, W.V. (junior)

Divine Healer, Evangelist

Hagin, Kenneth

Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher

cont ...............

a slew of preaching for the buck examples - many many more out there. the ones with small churches doing the same.

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-pentecostal-pr...ers-immoral.htm

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html

http://www.christianissues.com/wages.html

R.W. Schambach

Benny Hinn - http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/godstuff/dateline_hinn.html


How the Health and Wealth Gospel Twists Scripture

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/health$.htm

We're in a different world today than the one that Jesus lived in. I think pastors should get paid some money and not be expected to work a second job to earn their keep. They'd be taking away jobs from people who need them. Let them get paid for preaching the word of God.

They can live a just life and still get paid for their work. Everyone, not just preachers, need to realize though that luxuries are far less important than helping out the needy of humanity.

A lot of nuns are teachers in schools mostly high schools....I guess thats the only way they can make a living

at least its honest..unlike the pastor

Different how?? that back then, people lived of fresh air and water??

People back in the times of Jesus...LIKE JESUS went out and earned a propper living...yes INCLUDING JESUS..............

So are you saying that in modern day, it shouldnt be like that?? especially for those that want to read a bible and preach it??

What would you suggest these pastors do? there aren't enough jobs in this world for average people, forcing pastors to earn their keep elsewhere would be foolish. You'd take away more jobs from people, just to try and hold pastors up to a standard they shouldn't be held up to.

Exactly...they all made a living back in those days to, in order to get by...including Jesus and his father Joesph.......I don't see it any different from this day and age..meaning to go out and earn a living

Prolly the same thing their SAVIOUR did..go out and earn a propper living...Jesus did it..why cant they??

Pick a trade ...any trade...any profession...any job...are you saying these pastors cant do an honest days work like their saviour Jesus Christ did?? is that what you are trying to tell me???

Pastors put themselves up to a standard they shouldn't be held up to. We don't. We're just observing the hypocrisy.

And actually there are enough jobs, just no one wants to work


Paul was a tentmaker, Jesus was a carpenter...they did their ministry in THEIR FREE TIME. Why would any 'true believer' accept money for it?...omg wwjd?!

I'm saying it would be foolish to hold them up to the standard that christ set in a world that is not the same world that Christ lived in. He could get a job as a Carpenter, because there was always a market for it, and there was no home depot, or construction businesses. A man with a trade could go out and do that trade in jesus's time, because there weren't global corporations who had domination over the trade. Today, people go to a business instead of a person. Businesses only need a certain amount of people, and with many more people alive than people necessary to perform jobs, it would make the world a worse place to live in to take away pay from pastors just to satisfy your own need to have pastors be held up to an unrealistic standard. We don't need pastors taking the jobs of honest people because you feel they aren't chirst-like. if they teach and believe in the word that they preach, then that is enough.

How is it so different?

You want to know how much money pastors and other church employees make and how easy the job is? I have been part of a church staff twice both times I gave up a better paying job to do it, and both times I have lost the position because the church's finances reached such a low point that they could no longer afford to pay me. What does this mean? This means that the pastor whose job was already so overwhelming that he was getting only about 4 hours sleep a night, had not taken a vacation in more than a year, and actually had to add meetings with his wife, and college age son and daughter to his schedule so he could spend quality time with them is now going to have to do what I was doing on top of everything else. This is a man who has a B.S. in Applied Chemistry, and a PhD in Philosophy of Mathematics and could be making huge amounts of money out in the business world, but who has stayed with this small, independent, non-denominational church because he knows this is where God is calling him to be. You may be right that he is not living life like Jesus did, moving from town to town preaching the Good News, but that doesn't mean he is not living a Godly life, serving as the shoulder to lean on and cry on, the friendly ear to listen to woes and rants, the one person you can count on to show up at the emergency room at 3 AM to sit with you as they tend to your sick child for 200 families! The job is not easy, it is one of the most emotionally draining jobs there are (you rarely get calls when someone gets a promotion, or when their spouse surprises them with a great expression of love, but you get all the calls when they lose their job, their spouse tells them they've been having an affair, or someone is in the hospital.

I thought I explained a good portion of what's different in my previous post. do you have anything to say about the rest of what I wrote?

I didnt say for them to all go out and hunt for carpetner jobs...you obviously didnt read what I wrote..i said ANY TRADE and JOB...

How can you say it would be foolish for them to live as close to jesus as possible?? its the same world christ lived in....when it comes to earning a living, of course its the same as christ...why do you mix it all up?

You are making it sound as though...back in the days of Christ, men had to earn a living and if they wanted follow God..preach (jesus)....but now days its different...men have gotten way lazy and can only do ONE thing...they must choose the ONE job..talk about bone idol??

Do you honestly think Jesus himself saw it as a FULL TIME occupation to help people, heal others and preach?? <-- a pastor would prolly say yes...but Jesus didn't...he KNEW he had to go out and EARN A PROPPER LIVING...pastors have no excuse..appart from being lazy

See, this the problem you have. Why do you not accept that pastors are earning a proper living? why are you holding them up to Christ's way of preaching? this isn't the world Christ lived in. It's not laziness, there isn't a market for every human to get a job. Why would you want to take away pay from one person and force them to get another job? What purpose would that serve? They don't need to preach as christ preached, so long as they believe in the loving teachings of christ, then I see no problem with them getting paid.

Jesus wouldn't have gotten a paycheck, any money he would have gotten for his preaching would have came from the poor in whom he helped. Jesus wouldn't accept pay from the masses he was trying to help. Pastors don't charge money to the people who come to listen to their preachings?

Why not hold them up to christ??? eh?? dont they preach to others how to live as close to jesus their saviour as much as possible?? and while they do this..they take money for it?
Religion is not about making money for your keep..thats FACT

You tend to get confused with time ...you make it out that in the times of Jesus...it was easy for him to earn a full time living...but in MODERN times its NOT easy..............umm arent we supposed to be more advanced?? according to you, and going by your posts so far..obviously NOT


Tell me were it states in the bible - you should go out, spread the word of God ,and make it your living, get paid for it, it will put a roof over your head and food on your plate?

this I would love to see..but wont go holding my breath

A true christian that wants to live like Jesus...would have a full time job..earn a living.....then if he likes, hold lil meetings in his home or other peoples homes, and maybe, get together ands rent out a building to hold bigger meetings.............not make it a full time job...cuz Jesus didnt...the modern day man shouldnt either...

When a pastor/preacher drives a Jaguar and has a huge house and very nice clothes, it does make one wonder. The problem is a few have these possessions and it throws a shadow over all the other hardworking frugal pastors who actually believe in their jobs. Back in the 30's and 40's, the pastor who looked after my mom's congregation fed the animals when a person was sick/laidup, looked in on invalids, councilled people, helped in barn raisings...and lived in a little house that was beside the church. He did not go and visit the women when the men were at work (a new pastor did this, and got chased out of a house by the woman's husband with his pants around his ankles), he did not expect the people to come to him and ask for help, he went out of his way to make sure his "flock" was well looked after. THAT is what a pastor/preacher/priest should be.

Christians do things and live their lives in ways not mentioned in the Bible, BM. Where in the Bible does it say, drive a car to go deliver food to people who need it? Where does it say, go to the internet, find a forum and discuss issues from a Christian perspectives? Nowhere, but yet, we do all those things.

LOL the pastor got chased out by the womans hubby with his pants down LMAO randy ole bstd!!

It doesn't need to be said in the bible for it to be the right thing to do. Pastors aren't taking money out of the pockets of the poor, like Jesus would of had to have done if he decided to take money for his preaching. They get a paycheck for their work, why is that not acceptable? It's not about being more advanced, but what purpose would pastors serve taking other jobs, besides taking jobs out of the hands of people who need those jobs. The pastors already get paid. Money is meaningless but is necessary for society, I don't care what someone gets paid for, as long as it's not hurting someone else. And if they are using the money to sustain themselves, and not simply to compile luxuries, then they are just. Like I said this is what it comes down to. you can either accept or hold on to unrealistic standards:

These pastors need a way of sustaining themselves in a world that cannot sustain all whom inhabit it. There is nothing wrong with them getting paid for their preaching, as it can feed and clothe them, this reduces the amount of people looking for work in other avenues, and allows jobs to be open to people who need them. So long as they believe in the teachings of christ, they will not use the money on luxuries they don't need, like Jaguars or expensive Jewelry.

DUH no offence IAMS...trains planes and automobiles were not INVENTED back then LMAO

If they were im sure Jesus would have DITCHED the DONKEY LMAO

Thats not my point, my point is preaching the word of God...Jesus earned a living and found tiime to heal look at the sick..care for others..counciled even..and spread the word of his father............funny how Jesus could do this...but in todays MODERN world...the avarage pastor or preist CANT...shouldnt it be the other way around?? arent we supposed to be MORE advanced?? talk about Ar*e about face here

Unfortunately it has happened many times. There was a study done about ten years ago and almost 60% of pastors/preachers/priests did not believe in their job. I am hoping the stats have improved since then, because it is obvious that the true believers deserve someone who is honest and true. If all pastors, etc. had to give vows of poverty and only live with the necessities, I wonder how many would sign up for the job?

Good greif...you are saying Jesus would have taken money from the poor now?? WTF?? and dont sit there telling me that every last person Jesus came accross was poor...............people back then like Jesus earned a living

All you are doing here is - making up excuses for preachers ie pastors............and here I am defending Jesus <---the irony kills ya dont it..im not even a christian, yet I defend Jesus

A big fat ZERO

take a look at he buddhists...they differ

You really don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Please get the image of Jesus out of your mind when thinking of Pastors. They aren't Jesus, no one is. Now, think about it. Why should they get a job in a world with so many unemployed people, when they already have one that pays? who cares if they're jesus-like or not? If they believe in the words of christ, and their actions follow the teachings of christ, I don't care what they get paid.

Jesus would have had to of taken money from the people whom he preached to(most poor, some rich, really doesn't matter). The pastors get paid a paycheck. Can you grasp the difference? what do you think happens to the money if they don't get paid for their services? it doesn't exist. The money jesus would have gotten existed and was in the hands of the people who he preached to.

This thread should be re-named - Jesus V's the pastors

Because when you think about what Jesus had to do in his day...and think about pastors ...you would think that it was Jesus that lived in modern times..ABLE and fully capable of taking on a full time trade and have time to spread the word of God...see to the sick and needy...concil others...ect ect

Didnt say they were jesus...but they are linked to Jesus..when they preach about living as a true christian...meaning - to live as close to the life of their one and only saviour

but their saviour didnt expect money for all his troubles...they do...big difference

They chose the job. If they truly believed that they had a calling, then they should do the COMPLETE job and do it for the benefit of their congregation. Money should not be a consideration, they should have the necessities and be happy that they chose to do God's work. There is no way that there should be starving children on the street and a preacher who drives by in a big fancy car ignoring them.

That's because he couldn't get a paycheck for it. Any money he would have gotten would come from the people he was preaching to. Can you see the difference? Because there is one. If they are just and do good for the world as pastors, why does it matter that they get paid? They don't need to follow jesus's example 2000 years ago of not receiving money for their preaching , especially if bad would come from it.



I agree, they shouldn't be compiling luxuries with the money they earn. But they should earn money. otherwise, you have to realize, that more starving people will exist. there aren't enough jobs to sustain everyone. If they have to take on extra jobs to sustain themselves, that takes jobs away from people who need them. Can you understand what I'm saying here?

And if they don't get jobs, and they aren't getting paid for their services, then they might end up as the starving themselves. How many pastors would stay if they knew they either had to create more unemployed people by taking another job in addition to being a pastor? how many would stay if they knew they had to starve themselves in order to be a pastor?

I would like for you all to respond to the bulk of my text instead of just cutting out the stuff I actually want you to read and responding to only the parts that can back your point.

He could have still gotten cash for all his troubles..but see he KNEW it was SINFUL to show - GREED....didnt you know that they say - money is the root of all evil??...If that bible had of read - Jesus got paid by the public for his work..............you would have posted it in your defence...........but see it dont..and you cant..but im sure there are a few now going nuts looking through the bible trying to find something..anything that says he did LMAO

come back to me when you have a stronger defence

I'll try throwing a spanner in the works...


Lets PRETEND...that pastors did not get paid at all for their work....not even a button lol

lets say that...preists did...preist expected a pay check..and to top it all off, preists passed around the collection plate every God given Sunday...

How many of you, would sit here NOW and blast the catholic church for being so greedy and point out how Jesus did it for FREE and how your pastors do it for FREE to live like Jesus..and how its sinful and a big disgrace for a preist to do it for the money???
BE HONEST...if no one replies I will see that i made some sense here lol

Hey, Beckys_Mom? I think you're leaving out something crucial in your arguments.

People today are expected to work more.

Two thousand years ago, you worked during the day with a small number of clients. Today, thanks to electric lights, inflation and the ridiculous price of living, not only do you need more money, if you want to be guaranteed of keeping your job you gotta put in long hours in excess that of the average worker thousands of years ago. Today the average worker serves hundreds, if not thousands, of clients a day. Big difference.

On the other hand, why doesn't God look after all these pastors?

I would blast the people who did not pay the pastors. I don't have a bias for any religion. I speak only with righteousness.




A good point here, I'm glad you are able to see the message I've been trying to convey. You also have to remember there was no global outsourcing or illegal immigrants to pay cheaper wages to back then. there are already people who lose their jobs because of this, How many pastors could find work that these people can't find, and how many more people would lose their jobs because the pastors had to take them instead?

There's no reason to want pastors not to get paid for their services, other than to hold them to a standard that they shouldn't be held to. The standard they need to be held to is if they believe in the teachings of christ, and are able to convey them effectively to the people whom they preach to.

Yea, is that why unemployment is so high?? How many people do you know, sit on their lazy behinds, drinking all day..instead of going out and getting a job??

Back then people had to find some way to earn a living...I dont see the difference today...the only other difference is..technology has advanced...thats it

AHA but the pastors are the ons claiming that it should be done for free...the preists dont...now what do you think??

remember the pastors feel its only right to do it, in the way their saviour did it....preists dont...now do you get me?? remember its hypothetical

Unemployment is high because idiots breed like rabbits and the industry is replacing jobs with machines.

But my other point hasn't been addressed yet. Why doesn't God provide?

I dunno why doesnt God provide...

Im guess God expects man to go out and earn a living for themselves, not lay up expecting everything to fall at their feet...life is all about helping yourself...

I have a friend who volunteers for various things. She wants to help people and the places she works at can't afford to pay her. She has a part time job and a family and still manages to keep up her voluntary work... she just does the amount that she can fit in between her work and family. She could be in a really well paying full time job, but she's taken a low paid part time position so she can volunteer.

Why should my pal have to get a job while some pastor gets a wage? If he wants to do good works then why can't he get a job to support his vocation. A church near where I lived years ago had three leaders, and they took it in turns to take services so that the burden was never on only one of them. None of them were paid. Every penny went to keeping their tiny building going and to helping the poor.

Corporate greed is also the reason for high unemployment, or unjust employment. There are those who care more for money than their fellow man.

Your other point isn't all that important. Don't rely on God to provide for anyone in this world. Form the path to peace on your own terms, without the need for God's help. I feel your intentions are to blast religion, that will solve nothing, however. so drop those intentions, if all you intend to do is ridicule those who believe in God or God's intentions for this world.



It's unfortunate that you see it fit to have everyone who does good deeds needs to suffer or overwork themselves just because your friend does. Your friend deserves praise, and she likely gets it on the smiling faces of those whom she helps.

Not everyone needs to follow that path.

I see what you are saying shaddow..the trouble is, when a pastor has to do something like raise money..visit a sick person ect..they want a wage for it

A real good Samaritan wouldn't....goes to show you dont it


Irish posted a pic in another thread of the pope and mother Treasa ..asking which one lives closer to Jesus.............the obvious answer was Mother Treasa...

That depends on who you ask. some think Mother Teresa was a bad person who received unworthy praise.