I was talking to a colleague about something random to do with women and we got onto the subject of menstruation and religion. (He said god gave women periods as punishment for Eve taking the apple)

It made me curious as to how different belief systems view menstruation and I found this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_and_menstruation

Then this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_taboo

It made me think why is there such taboo about menstruation? Why is something natural seen as unclean? One theory is that many societies used to be matriachal and menstruation was understood and celebrated in fertility rites. As societies became more patriachal they began to fear menstruation as it was unknown to them.

Any views? Any more descriptions of how it is viewed in different cultures and beliefs?

Schnaff x

Hi there....well done for bringing up this subject.....I'm too tired to get into anything now...

MUST get to bed.....or I'm going to be a wreck tomorrow....but I wanted to give you some feedback.

PS I'm menstuating right now and think I'm in for a tricky night...(full flow and all that).

Am I allowed to say that? or will the witch-finder general come knocking at my door.

Ignore that last comment......menstrual madness!

My take on the Christian version:

When you talk about reproduction in living things that have more than a few cells, it generally involves combining halves of DNA from two partners. Homo sapiens obviously fall into this catagory. Furthermore, we are also mammals, which means that one of the two parents nurtures, protects, and feeds the developing fetus within her body. This is demanding both physically and emotionally. The other partner (in an amoral, uncivilized context) enjoys sex with one partner then, unaffected, leaves town and goes on to enjoy sex with another partner. Obviously, when it comes to the basics of reproduction (not including the moral demands civilization) being a male is easier than being a female. Females have the additional onus of housing a more complicated reproductive system which is more susceptible to things like cancer. The female goes through a fertility cycle inwhich much of her body's energy is utilized to create conditions in which a separate human can grow. With the male, all energy is utilized by him, except for the negligible energy necessary to create sperm.

Obviously, (excluding civilization's huge demands) females have a harder row to hoe than males. Without modern medicine's intervention, the female's body belongs partly to herself and partly to her species. The male's body belongs to him and him alone.

Christians assume that a just God created the universe, including humanity. So why would that just Judaic-Christian God portion out the biological responsibility so unfairly? Obviously, because the females belong to a sub-group that DESERVES to be cursed. The explanation for God's unfairness appears in Genesis. It was Eve (the first FEMALE) who first "ate of the tree of knowledge" and went on to corrupt her innocent mate, Adam. Eve commited the big sin and "it is fair" that all humans in her likeness (ie-WOMEN) should br cursed with a harder biological destiny.

Menstruation is called "the curse" because it is a symbol of femaleness.

I think, in general, signs of femaleness are considered bad because if being a female isn't bad, then God is unfair. If God is unfair, why kneel over to him in adoration? And why give money to his representatives on earth? I think that most religious conservatives (of all faiths) disapprove of birth control because it excuses women from that curse which is proof of God's fairness.

Did you all know that American doctors used to disapprove of painkillers for birthing women because "it wasn't what God intended"?

"I don't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die."
from here:
http://xenobiologista.com/blog/2006/09/ble...doesnt-die.html

As one who doesn't share this particular burden, blood gushing from my genitals means something is VERY wrong! I understand the biology of it and that it's a good thing, but if I woke up one day to find a puddle of blood on my bed in my crotch area, I would freak badly out.

I guess I'm trying to say that menstruation is right, healthy and wonderful, but I am glad that I don't have to do it. The only time I lose a lot of blood is when something very bad has happened to me.

Oh, and no gods made menstruation as any kind of punishment. It's a purely biological necessity to keep the complex baby-making organs working properly. Without menstruation, humanity would be long extinct.

"...being a male is easier than being a female. Females have the additional onus of housing a more complicated reproductive system which is more susceptible to things like cancer. The female goes through a fertility cycle inwhich much of her body's energy is utilized to create conditions in which a separate human can grow. With the male, all energy is utilized by him, except for the negligible energy necessary to create sperm."

This is not true. In the natural world, almost all of the females get to breed. Among many mammal species, lions for example, only a few males ever get to breed. The vast majority of males die virgin. There are frequent, violent battles to get and hold breeding territories or populations of females. Of course this sounds utterly unfair for both genders to civilized animals like us but in the wild, this is just the way it is. The most successful of the males often get one or a few seasons of breeding before they burn out from the rigors of frequent combat with rival males or before they are killed or driven off by younger, stronger males. Being male in the wild is no picnic. Males typically die a lot younger than females. Males spend HUGE amounts of energy fighting to breed. This is a powerful engine of evolution. Since almost all females will breed, their genetic fitness is not important, unless it leads to larger litters. Since only a few males get to pass on their genes, traits such as size and strength (males are often much larger than females among mammals because of combat-pressure), or sexually selected traits such as the otherwise less-than-useless bright plumage of some species of male birds, are preferentially passed on. Wearing a neon sign saying "Here I am! Kill me and eat me!", such as a coat of brilliant plumage, is very bad survival strategy unless it's required to be one of the few male birds who are selected for breeding.

"The other partner (in an amoral, uncivilized context) enjoys sex with one partner then, unaffected, leaves town and goes on to enjoy sex with another partner." This is simplistic. Among many species of birds and mammals, the male spends much energy defending his family and gathering food for the young. Sure, there are some species where the male leaves after mating (among cats, the female usually drives the male off through violence) but there are lots and lots of species where the father devotes huge effort to the raising of the young. Making simple "All ____ are bad" statements seldom holds true.

The following Daily OM Devotional has always been one of my favorites.

A Cycle Of Power
Honoring Menstruation

In the ancient past, as humanity began to move toward a patriarchal society, women were gradually deprived of the awareness of a wonderful gift. Previously, menstruation was considered a miraculous and cosmic event wherein women were strongly connected to all things spiritual. A menstruating woman was considered to be at the height of her power and was encouraged to spend time looking inward for feminine wisdom. Her menses held mana or the 'breath of life' and were a source of nourishment for the fertile soil. But as the goddesses were cast aside, women's relationship with the lunar cycles and the tides was cast aside. Menstruating women were forced to remain apart lest they infect others with their uncleanliness and their wisdom was suppressed. Contradicting today's attitudes of shame, however, is a strong movement seeking to reclaim the power of menstruation and to see it as a supreme blessing rather than a curse.

For many women, menstruation is a time of altered awareness, creativity, spirituality, and new heights of intuition. The need for solitude or rest is unjustly perceived as a weakness, when in reality it indicates a strong urge for introspection during the menstrual cycle. Perception and sensitivity are both amplified, encouraging women to challenge themselves and others. The Native American tradition states that a menstruating woman has the potential to be more spiritually powerful than any male or female at any time. Some may experience these changes during different spans of the cycle. It is not uncommon to experience a stillness and desire for quiet during the first part of the menses and extreme clarity during the latter part. In ignoring or denying such feelings, men and women alike lose touch with feminine power and the awareness of the value of menstruation.

It may be helpful to understand that menstruation is a natural time within the moon cycle to retreat from worldly concerns and to embrace transformation. Women may enter into the cycle in one way and find they emerge renewed on the other side. Harnessing the power inherent means listening to intuition, noticing unique synchronicities, and understanding the core of oneself. It is a gift from the body to the earth and from the body to the mind.

Following the mad rhythms of our sick, modern age ruins millions of lives. We all need to listen to the quiet voices whispering within ourselves. Buying bigger and yet bigger Hum-vees is so anti-human that I don't even know where to begin. Yes, I do know where to begin. Go out into your yard and stick your hands deep into the soil. Feel the cool, ancient power of the thing that keeps us alive, soil. Dirt is good. Very good. Dirt and water are the most important things in the world. Without them, we die.

Good argument (I'm referring to the whole quote.) With regards to the above, didn't god punish Adam too for eating from the tree? And why is a curse proof of god being fair? Surely someone who is fair has the ability to forgive and forget? Just throwing my two pence in.


Blizno - It's not as bad as "blood gushing from my genitals" for most of us! Without going into details it's not the same as bleeding from a wound or cut, it's just different.

I see what you're saying about the male energy expenditure with regards to continuing the species. The female is at more risk from predation or attack whilst pregnant so in many species the male puts his energy into protecting her and his offspring. Obviously there are some species where the male does his job and naffs off (Or the opposite in seahorses - female lays eggs in the male's pouch and does a runner!)

I did find a study just on the internet that stated it is more energy efficient for a female human to shed the lining of her womb on a regular basis than to keep it and spend the energy maintaining it. I'll find it and link to it.


Lady Valkyrie - I like the idea of treating it as a woman's most powerful time and a time for peace and thought. I've always been of the frame of mind that my period was a nasty time of month when I felt tired and icky, maybe if I change my view I can be more in tune with it.

This has all gone a bit scientific now, but here's a link to some bible based menstruation guidance...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...&version=49

Any from any other faiths? Ancient attitudes to menstruation?

Schnaff x

(I'll try and find that study again)

It was from this blog posted earlier.

"I read in a book (can't remember a thing about the reference, again, but I know it was in the Lawrence University library as of 2004) that anthropologists and biologists kept asking why female primates had evolved such a wasteful behavior as menstruation. You lose energy, proteins, and a substantial amount of iron. Then it occurred to someone to estimate whether not menstruating would save more energy...and it turned out that (according to their estimates, anyway) it's more effective to get rid of endometrium periodically (har, har, kelakar betul) than to bear the energetic cost of keeping all that vasculature and tissue alive."

When I study the Bible I like to use a Parallel Bible that has KJV, NIV, NLT & NAS in it. That way I get a wide variety of translations and can compare. In my opinion the old testament also says we are to kill disobediant children, homosexuals, and witches.

Is there anything in the NT about it?

Think fear.
In the 21st century, on a good day, women confuse men.
Now imagine being an early man, ignorant of modern scientific explanations for menstruation.
Imagine then being confronted with a creature who periodically bleeds, and during this time is as liable to kill you as look at you.
Thus you get stories like the garden of Eden, where Eve's curse is to menstruate and Adam's curse is to live with her while she is doing so.
Doesn't matter what the myth or stupid law, like the one in the OT about a menstruating woman sitting over a water source causing it to be labeled 'unclean', all come down to the same root cause: fear.

No there isn't a dang thing in the NT about it. I was doing some searching in the Thompson Chain Referance Concordance on studylight.org and looked up words like "woman", "menstral", "menstruation", unclean, and even blood. There is absolutely NO reference to the OT passages that you posted from that link on BibleGateway.com. This is supposed to be a reputable referance too! In fact when I looked up the passages for the words "unclean" and "uncleanness, ceremonial" something interesting came up. Here are the links...

Unclean
Uncleanness, Ceremonial

They actually skip right over the passages in Leviticus about women being cermonially unclean and just refer to certain passages in Leviticus about men. Why do you think that is? I was always taught when I used to be a Christian that the Bible is God's word and it is the same yesterday, today and forevermore. So why do so many OT rules and reluations get left by the wayside while others are upheld? Some Christians say that because Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins that such OT laws are not applicable anymore. While others quote the Bible and say that Jesus didn't come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it. You know what I think? I think some Christian men were too horney to wait for their women to become ceremonially clean again and said to hell with that particular rule.

I'm sure all of this just stems from the unpleasantness of it all.

Early man was way before the bible was written - they wouldn't have known even this explanation for it, let alone what we know now of the human anatomy.

Interesting subject, I've never considered it before. I remember being an 11 year old when it first happened to me - on a school trip to a roman Lunt Fort and thinking, please tell me I don't have this until I'm 50 - I'll never be able to do this for all those years. It's a daunting thing, but I was clued up, had every convenience at my disposal and expecting it - it's hard to imagine how people in times gone by handled it.

The wikipedia entry said that in some instances women who were menstruating were made to go into a special hut and not cook - sounds great! I want a special hut.

I have no idea why this is, I don't have a lot of knowledge of the bible due to being an agnostic. But it seems that some people only follow the bits of the bible that suit them (or whatever other religious guidance they follow)




That's the point though, why is it unpleasant? It's a natural process to do with reproductin and the perpetuation of life. Birth and pregnancy is often seen as beautiful and natural, but menstruation is seen as icky.



A special hut where I can read magazines, eat chocolate and be bought food and drinks! I'm in!

So is defecating, but the product produced is unpleasant, just like in this case.

I don't mean to be blunt, but that was the most eloquent way i could put it.

Perhaps the unpleasantness is because it can put a real "cramp" in your style. (sorry I just could not resist) Honestly there wouldn't be so many drugs out there to address menstruation if it were not a less than pleasant experience for many. I myself do not regard it as a curse however I listed not having to take part in it while pregnant as one of the positive aspects of the pregnancy.
Seriously though perhaps it was seen negatively because if your menstruating then that means the reproduction that your body was hoping for hasn't happened. "Darn it all no baby this month" We all know that most religions are down with the creation of new followers so any sign or time that there were no "freebie members" on their way had to be a bit of a downer for the higher ups.

Seems amazing how we humans can make so much ado about a natural biological process. I guess there are some things I'll never quite comprehend.

Oh, for the ladies...if you're patient it goes away eventually! Frankly, I'm perplexed at how menopause is portrayed in such a negative fashion. Remember how you felt when you were about 10 years old (without the hormone fluctuations and all). Well, you get to feel that way again!

Really??? that doesn't sound two bad at all... I could do cartwheels then

Good point! Both are excreting a waste product. What do relgious teachings say about defecation? (This has the risk of going really icky!!)



I'm trying to stop seeing it as a curse. I can see your point with regards to the "Darn it, no baby this month" thing, I suppose every period is a potential baby lost.



But you won't be able to walk your dogs whilst on roller skates!

I have Premenstrual Dysphoric Ddisorder (PMDD), along with Bipolar Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder. So when my time of the month comes along... it is unbearable at times. I'm medicated for everything I've listed, even so, it can be so very hard to get through every month. So I laugh everytime I hear about the woas of menopause. At this point in my life I'll gladly take on menopause. Take my periods away menopause... and take the PMDD with it! And I tell all those whiny menopausal women to suck it up... at least they don't have it as bad as those with PMDD.

I too often thing it's a "curse" because it's a potential baby lost. Ask anyone who's been trying to get pregnant! As well, men fear what they don't understand, therefore making a woman's period a bad thing. That and most of them are ticked off that the woman won't be putting out for a week. At least that's how it seems in my house!

And as for birth being natural and beautiful, what a load of bull! I've done it twice. There's nothing beautiful about it! The blood, the mucus, the poop! Did I mention the copious amount of blood?! No one mentions that when they talk about the beauty of a new life entering the world!

Are you saying that females don't enjoy sex, that men have no feelings after sex, and desert there wife????

Your feminist point of view is noted. If you apply nature and anthropology to this subject, you would find things are quite the opposite in some cases. Please don't take this as argumentative, but rather a slightly different perspective.


I believe many people would argue that the mans relatively simple reproductive system is a product of his rougher life than women (hunting, gathering, creating housing, protecting his family/clan/village from invaders).


The mans body and life belong to his biological family. He puts his life on the line every day for them, knowing that if HE dies, his offspring will likely be killed by whoever takes his woman as his own.



I don't think you are too far off from the truth here.



Again, as far as Mans ideas on females in relation to religion, not too far off I think.


I think that there was and still is in some communities, an ideal that childbirth is a natural thing, and that the pain is there for a reason, to create the natural chemicals in the body that spur on contractions, pushing, etc. My first child was born medication free. As far as what "God" intended, again, that's a Man created religious idea.

There are times I fear my wife when she is menstruating!

I think my fiancee copes pretty well with me, but he knows not to wind me up!

I'm not sure if I think of it as a curse, but more of a gift in knowing I have the abilitity to bring life into the world. It sounds silly considering during my period and the week after I have finished my period, I suffer from Irritable Bowel Syndrome. With IBS I have to watch what I eat, because A) If the food is too hot or Cold I get upset stomach, or Fatty foods make me a little bit constipated, and I feel bloated. I must drink 2 teaspoons of metamucil a day to help with my IBS.