hey guys, gotta question... Noah's arc if it is found will their be bones of the animals?? and if it is found, what will that say about the truth, and what else is written in the bible?

well youre assuming that this solely biblical flood hero had any place in real life
then you're assuming that if he did the story got it wrong because in the story the animals all got off the Ark after the flood
so if it is found (0% possibility) the only bones you'll find on board would be whats left of Noahs dinner (won't be pork)
lol
as for the literal; truth of the bible
the Hebrews don't endorse the new testament and they invented the bible
the catholics and the church of England don't believe in a literal bible as both have released statements saying that they don't believe most of genesis anyway
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1735730,00.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...ticle574768.ece



so if its found it would be red faces all round

Despite all the well-intentioned Christians searching for it, Noah's Ark cannot be found because there can be no doubt that this story, like all of the others in Genesis is an emellished account of a much older and more realistic Sumerian flood story. In the original, it is a localized flood in which silt layers prove actaully occurred around the time Noah's more fanciful flood supposedly happened, but in this case only a hasty raft was built for the family and domestic animals of the original "Noah". I suppose the most amusing thing is that the Hebrews worship the God who wanted to kill ALL the humans, while the other God, his brother, in fact, who was called a great serpent-dragon and created the Garden of Eden, was the one who actually warned the original "Noah" to build the raft.

So here we have a billion Christians worshipping the Sumerian Storm God Dragon that wanted to kill ALL the humans, while they revile the Earth Dragon of Eden and God of Wisdom who warned and saved the original Noah............. all becuase one of the illiterate shepherds who retold these stories around the camp fires for a thousand years thought it would be easier to tell the story if he just lumped the two gods into one, and the rest is "Bible History". So it was the entity late Hellenistic Jews renamed Satan who saved them from their God, just as this same Satan tried to make mankind have wisdom, as we learn in the Hebrew Eden story, which apparently was a very bad thing

But why would anyone think they would find the animal bones on the ark, since the object of the story was that the Ark was to save the animals and "good" humans? Or do you mean the bones of the extra animals that apparently had to be "food" for the carnivores? Or maybe the unicorns got terribly seasick and died, which is why we do not see them today. Isn't there a song about that, but I think instead of dying on the Ark they just "miss the boat"..

Are there sources for these dragon deities you are incorporating in the Bible fables? I'm curious to know where you get this information from.

Bibleorigins.com

But there are also clues that the ancient Hebrews thought their God was still a dragon, even in the Bible. His highest assistants are dragons (the Seraphim, which really means fiery flying serpents), and even Yahweh himself is described breathing fire from his mouth, smoke from his nostrils, and consuming people he's angry with. And the ONLY idol he ever ordered made was a fiery flying serpent, which was worshipped in Solomon's temple.

I thank you for that. This will give me some reading material while I am at work today.

Turkey is allowing the construction of a full scale model of the Ark on Mount Ararat as a tourist attraction.......should be ready for tourists next year. (sigh)

"THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture."


You know why they said that? It's because they are "the beast" the book of Revelation talks about.

I watched a documentary the other day on the History Channel. There were scientists on there backing up the sory of Noah's Ark.
They claimed that most of the spieces on the planet today can be genetically traced back to those original animals on the ark. And yes, the ark could hold them, and yes a model of the ark was made and it did float. The design was so well, they claimed there was no way it could sink.

" God was still a dragon, even in the Bible. His highest assistants are dragons (the Seraphim, which really means fiery flying serpents), and even Yahweh himself is described breathing fire from his mouth, smoke from his nostrils, and consuming people he's angry with. And the ONLY idol he ever ordered made was a fiery flying serpent, which was worshipped..."
"Seraph" means "burning", and earthly seraph animals were "fiery snakes". A heavenly seraph had 1 pair of wings covering his feet. In Isi. 1 .6-7 a seraph took burning coals from the altar with a pair of tongs in his hand. With feet and hands, they are men who are "burning", but not "dragons"..
Yahweh sits on a throne, not easy for a dragon. Jesus is Lion of Judah and the Lamb. Snakes were "seraphs" which bit the Israelites , causing Moses to make a copper snake on a post. Jesus said that it pictured himself being lifted up to die, as a cursed man._John 3. 14-15.

That definition that Seraphim are winged humanoid "cartoon angels" is a Christian concept incoroporated into the theology by converted pagans already familar with beautiful winged humanoid dieties of classical Greece and Rome. Isaiah never gives them a human form, only that they have arms legs wings and faces, nor are they referred to as anything but creatures or Seraphim. They cover their naked bodies with their wings to hide their cloacal vent in the presence of the Almighty, whereas the humanoid angels wear clothing in Biblical accounts. Anyone who actually understands Hebrew knows the Seraphim are not human-like, swan winged Cartoon angels, and even the Jewish Encyclpedia admits they are winged reptilian dieties which saw their origin in Mesopotamia. Undeniable, ancient proof can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, where the Jewish Rabbis and Priests themselves translated the word Seraphim (and specificaly referring to Creatures in Heaven), to the Greek word "Drakones". (If the srolls had been found by the Church, they undoubtedly would have been burnt.) These Drakones were not merely huge serpents as the Greeks sometimes fashioned them, but they are winged and limbed "serpent dragons" of the type deified in Mesopotamia, which was the origin of the Genesis stories. They are depicted as winged and limbed dragons on the Sacred Temple Menorah, and described with wings and limbs in Jewish scriptures, such as the dragon who saws stone blocks to build the temple, in the Testament of Solomon.
The more scholarly of Christian theologians such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas recognized these heavenly dragons, and on medieval bible covers and mosaics we see God sitting on thrones of living Seraph dragons in the act of swallowing sinners, or God flying on the backs of Cherubim dragons in illuminated bibles. But unaware of the Sumerian myths on which Genesis was based, they were uaware that Yahweh was originally the storm dragon Enlil. The ancient Jews probably understood this, originally acknowledging the Creator Elohim, and "sons of elohim", called "watchers" and described as dragons, that were assigned to domesticate/watch the various human cultures. If there is any truth to any of this, it might explain why human culture all over the world talk of dragons or flying serpents that gave them their techonologies.

The God who flooded the world in the Sumerian myth retained by the Hebrews, is a "Great Serpent Dragon" called Enlil. The God who created man from clay and put him in the pleasure Garden of Eden, but tricked Adam out of eternal life, and warned the first Noah aobut the flood, is the great serpent dragon, and "Lord of the Earth" Enki, who would become Satan. Is it only a coincidence that Jesus still referred to this creature as "The Lord of this world"?

The Brazen Serpent of Moses was not a replica of a mere snake, nor were mere snakes the creatures sent by Yahweh to punish the Israelites, but the heavenly wing "Drakones" as the Jews themselve would call them later on. Early Christians understood this too, as we see in their art. It was a winged dragon diety and idol to Yahweh ordered to be made by Yahweh himself, that was worshipped in the Temple of Solomon in the time Israel was at its greatest glory. But immediately after a king destroyed Yahweh's idol, 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel were conquered and destoryed by Assyria, and when future kings failed to restore Yahweh's idol, Babylon captured and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.

Of course, it may all be superstitious nonsense, though several billion people find varying degrees of truth in it. Though most don't realize that their God, Yahweh, is a winged reptilian creature orignally just the "Watcher" of the Hebrews, that served a higher Creator called Anu in Sumeria, and Elohim in the Bible. This is why there are two very different creation stories in Genesis. One credited to Elohim, which begins with a bang, life begins in the sea, links birds and dinosaurs (dragons) together, before an age of mammals and finally man, and then the more magical version attributed to Yahweh in which man is the first thing created.

Welcome to the "real Bible stories" they never told you about in Sunday School.

oxymoron

open your mind.

hay

that would be unlogical if bones were found in the Noah's Arc. those animals were taken so they could grow after disaster.

this is not a made up story. Noah was a Prophet. he lived during the empire of Mu and Atlantis. technology he used to build the Arc that day is still unknown by technology of today. He is also known and said about in Islamic sources.
as the place of the arc, most of the people point a mountain of eastern Turkey.




thank you for your time

thats very interesting
can you tell me what date the empire of Mu existed and where can I read more about it ?
Is it mentioned in the Koran ?

draconic ,
" Isaiah never gives them a human form, only that they have arms legs wings and faces, nor are they referred to as anything but creatures or Seraphim... even the Jewish Encyclpedia admits they are winged reptilian dieties which saw their origin in Mesopotamia."
_Isaiah wrote they have "feet..hands". The Jewish Encyc. refers to kiridu and lammasu which are not reptiles, but bulls, lions etc. with wings, which were the most attractive element.
"They are depicted as winged and limbed dragons on the Sacred Temple Menorah, and described with wings and limbs in Jewish scriptures, such as the dragon who saws stone blocks to build the temple, in the Testament of Solomon."
_Dragon stone-masons? Unless dragons know karate martial-arts, they would need hands for the tools .
(quote) Anton Marks."The representation of the candelabrum on the Hasmonean coins provides us with our oldest picture of the Menorah. One notable feature of that depiction is that it seems to be standing on a sort of tripod. This would agree with the evidence of the Talmud (which speaks of an indeterminate number of "legs"), as well as with the three-legged Menorah images that were incorporated in much of Jewish art in later centuries.
This portrayal of a Menorah supported by a tripod base is not the one that springs most naturally to our minds. Most of us imagine the Menorah with a broad, solid base, like the one that appears in the official seal of the State of Israel. The source for this image is the Arch of Titus, erected around 81 C.E. to commemorate the Roman triumph over the Jewish insurrection. On that Arch we can see a meticulously detailed relief of the spoils of Jerusalem Temple being carried through the streets of Rome, and the Menorah is perhaps the most prominent of the treasures. However the base of Titus' Menorah is not a tripod, but the now-familiar two-tiered hexagonal structure.
There are many factors that testify to the authenticity of the depiction in Titus' arch: In general, Roman triumphal arches were designed as historical documents and towards that end strove to be as accurate as possible. In this case, almost all the details demonstrate to the sculptors' intimate knowledge of the Temple's vessels as described in the Bible and other Jewish sources. Moreover, the proportions of the candelabrum, with its oversized base, are in such blatant conflict with the classical notions of aesthetic form that it is inconceivable that a Roman craftsman would have invented them.
How then are we to explain the discrepancy between these two different renderings of the Menorah's base?
Some clues to this mystery are suggested by the ornamental designs that appear in Titus' Menorah. Though the images have been eroded over time, it is possible to discern vestiges of such figures as eagles and fish-tailed sea serpents or dragons. A similar base has been excavated from a Roman temple at Didymus, now in southern Turkey.
The eagles were, of course, the best-know symbol of Roman sovereignty. The dragons were a popular decorative motif in Roman art, and the whole candelabrum seems to testify to the strong Roman influence.
There are however some striking differences between Titus' candelabrum and its pagan counterparts. The Didymus lamp, for example, features a human figure, a water-nymph, seated on the back of the monster. It also portrays this creature with spiky rills issuing from its neck, an image that was explicitly prohibited by Talmudic law. Both these features are lacking in the image of the Temple Menorah. While both these facts argue for its Jewish origins, they cannot offset the strong Roman influence perceptible in the design.
As some scholars have observed, this mixture of a positive disposition towards things Roman, mitigated by a Jewish antipathy towards pagan images, fits the personality of King Herod, the despotic monarch whose prolonged and unpopular rule over Judea was made possible by his slavish obedience to his Roman masters. Throughout his career he tried to impose Roman social and religious institutions upon his reluctant subjects.
It is thus entirely characteristic of Herod's approach to introduce into the Temple itself a candelabrum that was adorned with the symbols of Roman authority and values. As in similar cases, Herod was unable to completely ignore the popular resistance to human images or explicitly pagan motifs. If this is correct, then the Menorah that was plundered by the Roman legions was not the symbol of religious freedom that had been created by the Maccabees, but a despot's monument to foreign oppression. This fact might account for the absence of the Menorah from the coinage of the Jewish rebellions in 69-70 and 135, which made much use of other symbols from the Temple worship.
When the Menorah did regain popularity as a decorative theme in Jewish art from the third century onwards, it was the original three legged lamp that was chosen by the Jewish craftsmen as a symbol of religious pride and messianic hope.
Another inconsistency between different designs of the Menorah includes the shape of the branches of the Menorah. Generally, these branches are depicted as semi-circular or oblong in shape. However, Rashi in his commentary to the Torah, explicitly writes that the branches "extended upward in a diagonal." Indeed, the very Hebrew word which the Torah uses to describe the branches, "kinim", implies a straight line.
Part of the confusion concerning the shape of the branches of the menorah stems from the fact that the Rambam makes no definite statement regarding this issue, neither in his Commentary on the Mishnah, nor in his Mishneh Torah. For that reason, several commentaries were led to the conclusion that he also agrees that the branches were semi-circular. Nothing, however, could be further from the truth. The Rambam does not describe the shape of the branches of the menorah, because it is unnecessary. In both his Commentary on the Mishnah and his Mishneh Torah, he adds drawings in which he depicts the menorah. And in both instances, he shows the branches as extending diagonally, in straight lines. Unfortunately, at the time the Rambam wrote these works, printing presses had not been invented. It was not until several centuries after his passing that his texts were printed, and in these printings, his original drawings were omitted.
Equally clear evidence of the Rambam's perspective can be gleaned from the commentary to the Torah written by his son, Rabbeinu Avraham. When describing the manner in which the menorah was fashioned, Rabbeinu Avraham states:
"The six branches... extended upward from the center shaft of the menorah in a straight line, as depicted by my father, and not in a semi-circle as depicted by others."
Our Sages teach that the menorah is "testimony to all the inhabitants of the world that the Divine Presence rests within Israel." How unfitting is it that instead of drawing that symbol according to its conception by Torah sages, the conception from the arch which proudly states "Judea is vanquished" is used instead!

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This article belongs to the following subjects:
Judaism » Holidays with a Twist » Chanukah
Judaism » Jewish Symbols (end quote).


"The Brazen Serpent of Moses was not a replica of a mere snake, nor were mere snakes the creatures sent by Yahweh to punish the Israelites, but the heavenly wing "Drakones" as the Jews themselve would call them later on. But immediately after a king destroyed Yahweh's idol, 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel were conquered and destoryed by Assyria, and when future kings failed to restore Yahweh's idol, Babylon captured and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple."
_Jesus called it "ophin" Gr. "snake" at John 3.14. The 10 tribes refused to follow Hezekiah's destruction of the wrongly-idolised seraph "burning snake", and they were defeated while Hezekiah in Judah was specifically protected by Yahweh against Sennacherib. Babylon destroyed the Temple which Yahweh condemned for its "creeping beasts" idols ( Ezekiel 8.10), and no mention of lost idols.

It's obviously a physically impossible task to put all the creatures of the world in a boat.

But not physically impossible to bring the DNA of all the creatures, including humans, in a 'vehicle'.

That is if you can consider DIRECTED PANSPERMIA as a possibility.

The Bible Code books aren't everyones 'cup of tea' BUT unless you've read them...please don't start

going on about Mobey Dick!!! Bible Code 2 in particular is very thought provoking.

...................................................

Here is an extract from chapter 8..The Bible Code 2...hardback...page 143....

Quote....The secret of the genetic code is revealed in Genesis, where God tells Abraham:"I will bless thee greatly, and

I will greatly multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is upon the seashore; and in thy seed shall

all the nations of the world be blessed."

Hidden in those famous words is the true story of our creation. According to the Bible Code, our "DNA was brought in a

vehicle."
....................................................
In the notes for Chapter 8..page 258.....Michael Drosnin...the author of the book says...

I interviewed Francis Crick by telephone, October 27, 1998...........Crick won the Nobel Prize in 1962, with

James Watson for their discovery of the structure of DNA.

Dr Crick first published his theory that "organisms were deliberately transmitted to the Earth by intelligent beings on

another planet"in a scientific journal edited by the astronomer Carl Sagan, Icarus, Vol. 19, pp 341-46, July 1973.

He called his theory "Directed Panspermia."

Crick, both in our interview and in his original article, rejects similar theories that DNA arrived here in a meteorite, and

instead stated that " a primitive form of life was deliberately planted on Earth by a technologically advanced society on

another planet "using a "spaceship"
............................................................

Substitute 'spaceship' for Ark.

When is your book coming out DC?

You really haven't disputed anything I said. Regarding the Menorah, there is no Roman religious monument that looks anything like the menorah or its dragon-decorated base. And unlike spiny pagan dragons, these dragons conform to Talmudic law. And why would there even be talmudic laws that specifically instructed how "holy" dragons could be depicted? Probably becasue Jewsih priests and Rabbis acknowledged the Seraphim of Isaiah around the throne of God as Drakones. This is actually confirmed in the DEAD SEA SCROLLS!

And it is not me who stated that a dragon sawed stone blocks to make Solomons's temple, ancient Jewish scriptures did.

The Yahweh idol is called Nahashtan in the Old Testemant, Nahash - serpent Tan(nin) - Dragon. Serpent Dragon, the winged Sumerian Mushrushu just as the storm dragon who flooded the world is called in the story retained by the Hebrews, only renaming Enlil to Yahweh. The association of dragons and floods was so well known in this region that the dragon in Revelation spews water from his mouth to flood the earth.
It was Jewish propoganda that that tried to hide Hezekiah's disgrace. There is absolutley no historical evidence an angel killed 150,000 Assyrian soldiers. On the Contrary, EVERY Israelite city except Jerusalem was cpatured by the Assyrians, and 10 of the 12 tribes lost to oblivion. And a surviving Assyrian stele explains how Hezekiah gave the assyrians a huge tribute of silver and gold taken from the temple to prevent them from destorying Jerusalem. No wonder the angel story was invented! And why would there still be idols of creeping things in the temple if Hezekiah cleaned them out?

Christians have invented a "fairytale Bible" that contradicts the original Hebrew scritures and archaeology. In the real Bible, the Seraphim are winged reptiles, even the Jewish encyclopedia admits it and the Dead Sea scrolls confirm it. But Christians have turned them into Pagan Grecian swan winged demi-gods. Yahweh forbade the golden calf idol, but he ordered Moses to make the winged seraph dragon, becasue it was HIS image. NO GOD orders an image to be made unless it IS HIM! All the facts say this is true, but again, Christian fairytales say it was not an idol. And as soon as Yaheweh's idol was detroyed, TERRIBLE things began to happen to Israel was at its greatest glory, in the days of Solomon, when the dragon idol was worshipped. It would seem that this pleased Yahweh, for nothing bad happened until the idol was broken. What part of that don't you understand?

Get over it. Yahweh is a dragon. His idol is a dragon, he floods the world like the storm dragon Enlil in the original flood story the Hebrews copied, the bible says he breaths fire from his mouth, and smoke from his nostrils, he consumes people, his closeset associate are dragons, the Jews decorated the temple furniture with dragons, even the Perisans and gnostic Christians said he was a dragon. Its not like he's God. He's a dragon that works for God that was been confused with God. Its just a simple and understandable case of mistaken identity.

Good Christians should be elated over all the scriptural proof that Yahweh is a dragon. After all, every human culture believed in them, so these may all be aspects of Yahweh as well. Just because there are many childish myths of human heroes slaying dragons, there is not a shred of evidence this has ever occurred.

Later this year. I'll be sure to let everyne know here when it is ready. It should be read already, but these forum discussions continue to bring up new aspects that must be addressed.

draconic ,
"What part of that don't you understand? ..Get over it."
You sound desperate. Why is that?

all the animals , 2 by 2 on the ark ? lol it's sad enough people believe there was a world wide flood. ( no evidence of it ! and it would have left a layer of evidence world wide in the soil)

To date, taxonomists have identified less than two million distinct species, mostly mammals and birds. But it's estimated that the number of undiscovered species—primarily fish, fungi, insects, and microbes—ranges from ten million to more than one hundred million. Even at the low estimate, it's an enormous number.


don't think so.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...allspecies.html

there was a flood in the region

The Truth About Noah's Flood.

http://www.pbs.org/saf/1207/features/noah.htm


Noah himself probably didn't exist either.

Lieut.,
Ark length:width 6:1, the ratio of modern liners.
437x72x43 ft. (300x50x30 cubits) =1.4m. cu.ft. volume.=96000 sq.ft. floorspace.
There are 72 families of quadrupeds, 200 of birds and 10 of reptiles, which breed into species.
If species are counted, 60% are insects. 29 animal species are bigger than sheep, and 1360 are smaller than rats.
A cruise-liner handles sheep and rats all the time.

and what about the fish ?

And the plants. I'm pretty sure the Wollemi Pine, for example, wouldn't have liked being under thousands of feet of salt water for 40 days and nights ..... So presumably Noah collected a sapling, took it on the ark, and then replanted it in a remote valley in Australia afterwards?

Oh, and don't forget all the seashore dwelling plants and animals - which would also have needed to be taken on board. In fact, apart from a few deep dwelling marine animals, almost every form of life on the planet would have had to be on the Ark. Animals is nothing - think of all the different arctic lichens!

my favourite bit is where a semitic sailor fathers millions of full blooded asians, negros, caucasoids etc in less than 4000 years

What's the problem?

I'll volunteer for the job! Sign me up!

Harte

who's tosay the arc wasnt a spacecraft. it could coincide with the city of atlantis maybee it would, or wouldnt. who really knows anyway. I think we landed here

Science and the Bible
Unless Gopher wood is a high grade alloy i don't see much point in even discussing that one

Indeed....the speculative theory that the ark was a spaceship....has as much weight as any any other theory.

Maybe more....if one considers that the seeds of life (DNA?) being tranported in a extra-terrestrial vehicle...

could actually be considered as more feasible than all the animals etc of the earth being found and put on

a wooden ship.


I believe that 'ark' is a general word for box. The irony of the 'ark' or 'spaceship' question, is that while ark

means box....at least 'spaceship' contains the word 'ship'.

...........................................................

Maybe the flood, was the flood of life from one place in the heavens to another?

Maybe the waters....were celestial waters?

Maybe the 'mountain' that the so called ark rested/landed on was a planet...ie this one.

I.e. mountain=metaphor for planet....as in 'large rock' in the celestial waters.

If the story is true, why would there be bones? The ark didn't wreck. It came to rest on Mt. Ararat and then the doors were opened and everything came out and reproduced and repopulated the earth. SUPPOSEDLY, if you believe the whole story.



That NEVER occurred to me. Now, that I've read that, I'm like, "Oh yeeeeeeeeeeah!"

boy you really like sci fi don't you

try this, its a line by line comparison between the Biblical story of Noah and the flood story from the Epic of Gilgamesh

Gilgamesh: -
When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.

Genesis 7
8 And he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground. 9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him to the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth

Gilgamesh
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.
Genesis 7

7 And he sent forth a raven, and it went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth

as you can see the biblical story is clearly plagiarised from the Epic of Gilgamesh
heres the problem
the Epic of Gilgamesh doesnt have two of every animal on it
there are 1500 years between the date that Gilgamesh was written and the date that the Bible was written
so that part at the very least was completely made up in a later retelling of the flood story

so whatever way you want to look at it
there were no animals on the ark
and the ark therefore doesn't need to be a spaceship

you were right of course the speculative theory of the Ark of Noah being a spaceship has as much validity as any other except for those theories like this one which are based on the facts


p.s. Noah wasn't in the earlier story either
neither was YHWH

I thought you would know that there a several Sumerian flood story variations, and saving the animals are among them. Not every animal species, just the animals that belonged to "Noah" so he would still have a livlihood after the disaster.

The storm dragon who decides to flood the earth is called Enlil, but the Hebrews would rename him Yahweh. It is the dragon's brother, Enki, the creator of the Garden of Eden, who goes against his brother's wishes and warns "Noah" of the flood and that he must quickly make a raft from the reed walls of his house. Over centuries of retelling the story as an oral tradition, attributes of both dragons are given to Yahweh.

Actually I DON'T like Sci fi.....but I do like ancient history!





I'm happy with that statement. I have heard this many, many times before...but thanks anyway.




I suspect that the Epic of Gilgamesh is MUCH older than the bible...but I will have to look that up.





The transportation of life, maybe ALL life is at the root of the tale...whether this tale is PURE Gilgamesh or not.....

the ark might not need to be a spaceship....but it still could be! And 'Directed Panspermia' may be

behind the story of Noah's ark....even though Noah's Ark is a re-hash of other ancient tale/s.

I am aware of all the flood story variations
including the babylonian one dating from 1700bce which includes animals
this is why I said

you think I should include more detail in future posts when the post I am responding to asks the question "was Noahs ark a spaceship ?


The storm dragon Enlil ?
please include a link to a scholarly source that calls Enlil a storm dragon ?
for the last time the noun Dragon is a title not a description
how many times do you need to have this battered into your face
do you believe that Dracula was also a reptile ?
your delusional view of the Bible as real history is flawed
the fact that you havent even began to address those flaws means that anything you say is also flawed
can't see the woods for the trees can you DC
Dragon mythology for your future information is based on serpent mythology
and serpent mythology alwas has them living in the sea from China to Sumeria
the fact that you think they also had wings means that you really don't understand the most basic facts of biological evolution
there are no higher animals on earth that have six limbs as your idea of dragons does
one set of limbs has been added over time each time the story is retold
choose
1) front legs
2) wings
3) back legs
even a five year old would understand that question (i just asked my nephew and he got it straight away)
you seem to have a problem don't you
you accept that the stories that appear in teh bible have been added to over time yet you won't accept the same is true for dragons
Dragons don't exist
Dragons didn't exist
Dragons have never existed

you have named yourself after a non entity

Seraphim were mentioned in the bible in one place and it was a vision! They weren't real beings.

"my favourite bit is where a semitic sailor fathers millions of full blooded asians, negros, caucasoids etc in less than 4000 years".
There were 4 wives not descended from Noah. How different are the modern breeds of farm animals compared to medieval types?
"Fish"..! where do fish live? Did Noah carry water bottles for the coffee?
The Ark went nowhere except up and down, so a box was ideal for capacity and stability. Trees and seeds can float and the water was fresh. Like animals, only a botany family is needed to produce species later.
But its not nearly as much fun as a spaceship from 200000000000000000000000000 miles away

Again, every time you foolishly post your nonsense to discredit me, you demontrate that you have no idea what you are talking about. Not only is Enki/Ea called a "great serpent dragon" in various hymns, but his physical appearance is also described in detail, with heel-less reptilian feet, scales, a serpent like , horned head, even mucous dribbling from his nostrils. It is not a matter of saying he really was a dragon, but the context of the ancient literature plainly stated he was BELIEVED to be a literal, terrifying reptilian monster, which like other Gods, could also assume a human form as well.

And no, the dragons are NOT always marine creatures. One of the titles of many sumerian gods was that their "Mother was a great Serpent-Dragon of HEAVEN. Heaven is in the air, not in the water.

Many sources identify Enlil as a storm god exactly as Yahweh, and both were believed to cause the storm of the great deluge. Several of Enlil's Hymns refer to him as a dragon, and menition his symbols of storm cloud an rainbow, both associated with Yahweh as well.
And if you studied this in any detail you would also see that evil dragons are legless marine creatures, and good dragons are winged and footed Mushrushu. Legless sea serpents are probably based on legless snakes. Mythic dragons with wings and legs are based on animals with wings and legs.

Four legged reptiles with wings DO EXIST and their scientific name is Draco. They are not very big, but it again shows everyone here that you know as little about biology as you do about Mesopotamian mythology --- ZILCH, NADA

The ark, a ship about the size of the USS California, 40 officers 541 enlisted men.
I guess the misquitos an insects were there too,
And what about cleaning all of those cages everyday, for 40 days. I can imagine the odors eminating from the bowels of the vessel.
You can bet that was no Royal Caribbean Cruise.

You discredit yourself with this elaborate tale. They were creatures in a vision. Not real.

Apollyon did ask you for a link.....and you posted none.....so I did a little searching

Iconographically, Enki/Ea was customarily depicted as a seated divinity wearing a long beard, a horned cap and a long pleated robe, wavy streams of water (sometimes with fish within them) flowing from his arms and shoulders to the ground. Enki is frequently represented as receiving lines of worshippers or offering bearers, introduced to him by other deities, but most commonly by his own ministering god, Isimud/Usmû. Also depicted appearing before Enki as a prisoner under guard is the bird-man, as is a lion-demon. Enki is sometimes shown within a low structure, the Abzu itself, or within his primary shrine in the Sumerian city of Eridu (the E.ABZU, "house of the Abzu"), surrounded by channels of water. The symbol of Enki/Ea in the Kassite, Assyrian and Babylonian periods was the goat-fish, other symbols of the god including the turtle and a curved rod finished with a ram's head.
Enki (Ea)


As you put it "ZILCH, NADA" on the reptilian look.

so in other words you made up that bit about Enlil being a storm dragon didn't you
and don't get your knickers in a twist im not trying to discredit you
you do that all on your own every time you post

for instance your claim that Draco Volans has it is a four legged reptile with two wings is laughable
its wings are made from folds of skin
your dragons of myth clearly have 6 limbs, these are teh dragons you are claiming were real
Draco Volans is at most 25 centimetres long

are you claiming that because draco volans has flaps of skin that it uses to glide (not fly) that it adds weight to your claim that huge flying reptiles with 6 limbs that breathed fire once existed
there is a technical name for this type of claim DC
its called clutching at straws

now tell me
why is it you can accept that the bible stories have been retold over and over down through the millenia and had extra details added but you can't accept that the same thing has happened to creatures in the story
is there some kind of magical narrator going round and keeping those details that only pertain to dragons correct
how does this add together with the total lack of any dragon artifact
the total lack of scientific evidence
the total lack of physical proof


as for legless dragons being evil and non legless ones being Mushussu how do you account for the fact that Dragons in the far east are all marine and all considered benevolent
how does this description of yours account for the fact that in another thread you were claiming that Tiamat was a mushussu yet she was evil
how does this account for the fact that Tiamat represents the primevil ocean
no dragon is based on snakes if you knew anything about mesopotamian linguistics and symbology you would know exactly how that connection was made
and no dragon was based on a creature with wings and legs as no such creature has ever existed

so are you claiming that these dragons are
1) from another planet
2) from another dimension
3) genetic experiments gone wrong

we all know that the only place they ever existed is in the imagination but please tell me which origin does your delusional imagination claim is correct ?

We must by all means also consider flying snakes.


Just to keep it fair

blimey, where to start?

noah's ark? probably didnt exist....
a good point was made that since the animals left the ark after the flood subsided there would be no bones on it...unless some died in transit. but since it didnt exist this line of thought is pointless.

as some have pointed out the myth probably stems from earlier myths from Sumeria, but most seaboard cultures have flood myths of some sort with similar ingredients. it has lead some to speculate that there was some 'global' event, the truth of this is not known. The Black Sea was certainly flooded by the Med and suggests that it took out some areas of habitation, this event may well contribute to the Noah story localised in western asia but this is again speculation.

As to the dragon stuff, most of this is dealt with in the dragon thread (on beliefs, religion, spirituality sub-forum), theres 18 or more pages of this sort of discussion-no matter what you say DC has gone too far into the production of his book to see sense. but thats ok, im sure it'll make for entertaining reading and if it spurs folk to investigate further then it will prove to be valuable. (btw DC you havent responded to the observation that the Han mushushu-like dragons were not the earliest representations in china, and were preceeded by over 2000 years by identifyable 'long' dragons...which certainly were a composite clan-totem beastie as seen in the 'pen' of the xia and shang. while the Han and Tang dragons have their origin in imported stylistics.)

finally the 'wings' of the gliding or draco lizard are not true 'wings' they are made from a skin membrane over modified ribs....they aid gliding, and cannot be flapped to achieve flight. They could never grow to any great size and maintain their lifestyle. When dragons have wings in their depictions...you claim some are more accurate (because the artist or someone close to him/her must have recently seen one) than others....these you term 'accurate' have wings which are limbs. The mushushu in sumerian art have featherd wings rather than membraneous. ... they too are composite beasties and most likely stem from tribal/cultic totemism.

back to the ark...

there was a formation found in SE Turkey that many thought was the ark, turns out it wasnt. There is also the sighting of someone who, when he was a small boy saw a great wooden boat on mt. sainai in turkey on some hot summer (prob. el nino year) when the glaciers had receeded. he claims to have even stood on the deck. After the cash his family pocketed from investigators, who says liars never prosper? just kidding...he spent it all on booze. Anyway a team lead by some crazy die-hard go up the mountain every year to look for it....their funds are running low-and the locals will miss the parties. youll probably find footage for the various documentaries on utube.

hay

was said that The prophet Noah did not carry animals physically.
back then they had high tech on genetics. some say Noah geneticly saved the creatures.

just wanted to add

If the water covering the earth were fresh, almost all marine life would have perished. The oceans are salt

And if a limited number of animals produced a wide variety of species after the flood, how comes those species are identical to species that lived before the flood? And which of the animals Noah took on board produced all the species of marsupials?

I have posted the actual hymns here that prove the ancients described Enki/Ea as a serpent headed, scale covered, claw footed, drooling dragon, and in hymns he is called the Great Dragon who stand in Eridu". Should I do so again to prove how little you know about this?

The ancients believed these dieties could take many forms, including human, but their most awesom form, and the form the humans credit as their real form is that of the Mushrushu dragon. This is why many of their titles state the were children of a heavenly dragon. You cannot dismiss the archaeological evidence. They ancient hymns call Enki/ea a dragon, and DESCRUBE his form as a dragon in intricate detail. If your Wiki sources have not studied the evidence as thoroughly as I have, or are aware of the hymns, steles, and the likes that confirm this, what can I say, except that you know less aobut this than even Apollyon, if that's possible.

Nonsense. The words Seraphim and dragons are intechangeable and dragons are mentioned througout the Bible. When the ancient Jewish rabbis translated the hebrew scriptures into Greek, the word Seraphim was translated to Drakons. This is apparent in the oldest known biblical scriptures in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Hebrews, like EVERYONE else in the ancient world believe these flying serpents/dragons were very real, not visions. In the Bible, God sents the Seraphim to kill hundreds of disobedient israelites. Visions do not kill people. Of course, all religion can be dismissed as mere legend, but the Seraphim/dragons were believed to be real creatures, just as angels were. Actually, there seems to be far more recorded sightings of dragons than angels.

you posted that hymn twice in the dragons thread on the religions etc.. board, and each time i informed you that it is BABYLONIAN and NOT Sumerian. Their conception of the god was different. I also pointed to the mistake in viewing the hyperbolic imagery of hymns in a literal way.
No sumerian said that their true form was a quadrapedal, winged dragon. When they are given the epithet Ushumgal (which you usually misspell) it is a title and not to be taken literally, besides it literally translates as "Great Serpent". The archaeological evidence supports this. While Enki is NEVER depicted as a quadrapedal winged dragon, and on the seals he is humanoid, Excavations at his city in Eridu have revealed in his temple, beneath the altar, lots of clay snake models and efigies, coiled up. This suggests some serpent-cult associated with Enki, and fits in with his epithet and role as a deity. To use your words..."You cannot dismiss the archaeological evidence."
You originally tried to pass off that hymn as sumerian, giving the title of the book you pulled it from (writen c.1903) Myths of Babylon and Sumeria, but really it is Myths of Babylon and Assyria. The Sumerian gods are seen through the eyes of later and foreign peoples.
It is a mistake to use this hymn to illustrate how the Sumerians saw their gods....no matter how intricately the dragon is DESCRUBED. lol

Then by all means enlighten me please.......with perhaps a link to your source.


Oh wait......it's all in your book......that still has not been published yet.


As Apollyon and a few others have asked (myself included now).....a source please


The hymns may or may not call him a dragon but.......

Iconographically, Enki/Ea was customarily depicted as a seated divinity wearing a long beard, a horned cap and a long pleated robe, wavy streams of water (sometimes with fish within them) flowing from his arms and shoulders to the ground. Enki is frequently represented as receiving lines of worshippers or offering bearers, introduced to him by other deities, but most commonly by his own ministering god, Isimud/Usmû. Also depicted appearing before Enki as a prisoner under guard is the bird-man, as is a lion-demon. Enki is sometimes shown within a low structure, the Abzu itself, or within his primary shrine in the Sumerian city of Eridu (the E.ABZU, "house of the Abzu"), surrounded by channels of water. The symbol of Enki/Ea in the Kassite, Assyrian and Babylonian periods was the goat-fish, other symbols of the god including the turtle and a curved rod finished with a ram's head.
NOT WIKI THIS TIME!


Wikipedia at least provides sources unlike you.


That seems to be the best you can do!

"The ark, a ship about the size of the USS California, 40 officers 541 enlisted men.
I guess the misquitos an insects were there too,
And what about cleaning all of those cages everyday, for 40 days. I can imagine the odors eminating from the bowels of the vessel.
You can bet that was no Royal Caribbean Cruise. "
Insects can fit into .... a match box? There are about 290 species of animals bigger than a sheep, but these may be bred from their zoology family without needing every specie.
_"The Flood in the Light of the Bible, Geology and Archaeology" A Rehwinkel.1957.p.69.
If these were at one end of the 430 foot ark, on a mid-deck then their body / manure heat would rise and cause an air-flow from a duct at the far end. They would cause fresh air in the deck, rising to an outflow. If the 8 people had cabins on the open top deck with a wind wall to keep the duct pointing
down-wind, then you have state-rooms with full ocean-views on Noah's New-World Cruise.