"the fact that you havent even began to address those flaws means that anything you say is also flawed"

As far as these seraphim having psychic powers and being able to travel inter-dimentionally just seems a bit rediculous.
There is nothing in the bible that can even begin to prove this claim."

and no dragon was based on a creature with wings and legs as no such creature has ever existed

they too are composite beasties and most likely stem from tribal/cultic totemism.

are you not aware that Judaism and Christianity evolved from Judaism and share the same mythology

you can read about them in more than an out of date relgious book

theres plenty of archaosaur remains in ancient tombs and they are well attested in ancient cultures and not related to dragons at all. [punctuation added by me] everyone knew what they were and theres no confusion in that area

It is really just the stupidest barbarian cultures that considered dragons to be evil monsters.

they never thought Tiamat was a god

you cant even spell simple akkadian words

which was why iyo it was rubbish
fyi Beowulf is an Anglo Saxon poem
that means its english
and as you know
Us English are about a million times more civilised than anyone who ever worked for the DofD could ever possibly be
lol

in ancient times heaven was not a magical place out in space where God lived forever amidst choirs of angels and dragons either

If the ancient Jews did not think the word Seraphim literally meant Dragons, they would not have translated the word as Drakons in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

This article discusses cult in the original sense of "religious practice." It does not discuss religious or sociological cultist groups or uses in the sense of "cultural sub-group," as in cult film, etc.

In traditional usage, the cult of a religion, quite apart from its sacred writings ("scriptures"), its theology or myths, or the personal faith of its believers, is the totality of external religious practice and observance, the neglect of which is the definition of impiety. Cult is literally the "care" owed to the god and the shrine. The term "cult" first appeared in English in 1617, derived from the French culte, meaning "worship" or "a particular form of worship" which in turn originated from the Latin word cultus meaning "care, cultivation, worship," originally "tended, cultivated," also the past participle of colere "to till". Thus in French, for example, sections in newspapers giving the schedule of worship at Catholic churches are headed Culte Catholique; the section giving the schedule of protestant churches is headed culte réformé.

By extension, "cult" has come to connote the total cultural aspects of a religion, as they are distinguished from others through change and individualization. Well-known global cults include Islam and Christianity.

The meaning "devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829, and from that connotation comes the modern meaning of "cult" as in a "cultist" or a "cult following". Cult and cultist have recently accrued negative connotations that are separately dealt with at the entry cult.

In Roman Catholicism, cultus or cult is the technical term for the following and devotion or veneration extended to a particular saint.

Some Christians make refined distinctions between worship and veneration, both of which are outwardly expressed in cultus or cult and are indistinguishable to the observer. Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy distinguish between worship (Latin adoratio, Greek latreia [λατρεια]) which is due to God alone, and veneration (Latin veneratio, Greek doulia [δουλεια]), which may be lawfully offered to the saints. These private distinctions between deity and mediators are exhaustively treated at the entries for worship and veneration.

Among the observances in the cult of a deity are rituals and ceremonies, which may involve spoken or sung prayers or hymns, and often sacrifice, or substitutes for sacrifice. Other manifestations of the cult of a deity are the preservation of relics or the creation of images, such as icons (usually connoting a flat painted image) or three-dimensional cultic images, denigrated as "idols", and the specification of sacred places, hilltops and mountains, fissures and caves, springs, pools and groves, or even individual trees or stones, which may be the seat of an oracle or the venerated site of a vision, apparition, miracle or other occurrence commemorated or recreated in cult practices. Sacred places may be identified and elaborated by construction of shrines and temples, on which are centered public attention at religious festivals (called "feasts" in some Christian communities) and which may become the center for pilgrimages.

The comparative study of cult practice is part of the disciplines of the anthropology of religion and the sociology of religion, two aspects of comparative religion. In the context of many religious organisations themselves, the study of cultic or liturgical practises is called liturgiology.

Definitions

[edit] Dictionary definitions of "cult"

The Merriam-Webster online dictionary lists five different meanings of the word "cult" 32.

1. Formal religious veneration
2. A system of religious beliefs and ritual; also: its body of adherents;
3. A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also: its body of adherents;
4. A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator;
5. Great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book).

The Random House Unabridged Dictionary definitions are:

1. A particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies;
2. An instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers;
3. The object of such devotion;
4. A group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc;
5. Group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols;
6. A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader;
7. The members of such a religion or sect;
8. Any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

For authoritative British usage, the Compact Oxford English Dictionary of Current English definitions of "cult" and "sect" are:

cult[2]

1 a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object.
2 a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
3 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.

sect[3]

1 a group of people with different religious beliefs (typically regarded as heretical) from those of a larger group to which they belong.
2 a group with extreme or dangerous philosophical or political ideas.

British "sect" formerly included a contextually implied meaning, of what "cult" now means[2] in both USA and the UK. Some other nations still use the foreign equivalents of old British "sect" ("secte," "sekte," or "secta." etc.) to imply "cult."[4] Both words, as well as "cult" in its original sense of cultus (e.g., Middle Ages cult of Mary), must be understood to correctly interpret 20th century popular cult references in world English.

[edit] Theological definition

Conservative Christian authors, especially evangelical Protestants, define a cult as a religion which claims to be in conformance with Biblical truth, yet deviates from it. By this definition, a cult would be a group which calls itself Christian yet deviates from (what they see as) a core Christian belief, e.g. the Trinity. Walter Martin, the pioneer of the Christian countercult movement, gave in his 1955 book the following definition:

By cultism we mean the adherence to doctrines which are pointedly contradictory to orthodox Christianity and which yet claim the distinction of either tracing their origin to orthodox sources or of being in essential harmony with those sources. Cultism, in short, is any major deviation from orthodox Christianity relative to the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith.

Author Robert M. Bowman Jr. defines cult as

"A religious group originating as a heretical sect and maintaining fervent commitment to heresy. Adj.: "cultic" (may be used with reference to tendencies as well as full cult status)." 33

In theology, particularly Catholic theology, cult is a liturgical term, from the Latin, colere, to devote care to a person or thing, that is, to venerate, worship. "Cult" is the root of the term "culture," or "the cumulative deposit of knowledge, experience, beliefs, values, attitudes, meanings, hierarchies, religion, notions of time, roles, spatial relations, concepts of the universe, and material objects and possessions acquired by a group of people in the course of generations..." [5]. Cult in theology then refers to:

* Liturgy as the actual arrangement and execution of the public Divine worship as authorized by the Church. The Sacred Congregation of Rites, established by Sixtus V, 1587, as the authoritative organ of the Holy See, is the supreme arbiter.

* Part III of the New Code of Canon Law is entitled, "On Divine Cultus." After giving the law governing worship in general (canon 1255) and public worship (canon 1256–1264), the Code gives special laws for the custody and cult of the Blessed Sacrament (canon 1265–1275); for the cult of the saints, sacred images, and relics (canon 1276–1289); for sacred processions (canon 1290–1295), and for sacred furniture (canon 1296–1306).

* In Hagiology, we must distinguish between public and private cult of the saints. Privately, cult (dulia) can be paid to any deceased of whose holiness we are certain. "Public cult may be shown only to those Servants of God who by the authority of the Church are numbered among the Saints and Beatified" (canon 1277), by the regular processes of canonization and beatification. Canonized saints may receive public cult everywhere and by any act of dulia; the beatified, however, only such acts and in such places as the Holy See permits (canon 1277, § 2). Saints may be chosen with papal confirmation, as patrons of nations, dioceses, provinces, confraternities, and other places and associations. [6]

Catholic theology makes a distinction between the "cult" (Latin cultus), in its technical sense here, of dulia and latria.

Dulia is the "honor," "respect," "affection," due to saints -- Mary, as the mother of Christ, is given "hyperdulia," and traditionally St. Joseph as "foster-father and guardian" of Christ is honored with "protodulia," but in all cases, this dulia is best termed respect and honor. In no way is dulia owed to statues, icons or other depictions of saints, but to the saints themselves, of whom such depictions are mere reminders. This dulia is specifically defined as qualitatively different from latria.

Latria is the cult of worship, and this belongs, in Catholic theology, to God alone -- hence, to the Eucharist (as, for Catholics, this is one way that Christ is "truly present") and to each person of the Trinity. In Catholic terminology, God and God alone may be said to be "worshipped" and "adored."

Cult: used in the case of religions. The word cult could be applied to any religion or any social community in the world due to it's hazyness in definition. Cult is now generally associated with anything that has a bad outcome so is therefore used freely once people have had a bad experience with religion. Please bare in mind that one can have a bad experience with anything and that nothing is perfect, therefore all could be said to be a cult. Alternatively most things in life have a good outcome as well as a bad out come, (people's different experiences with a religion for example), therefore we cannot apply the word 'cult' to such cases as in reference to religion in any circumstance, no matter how secretive a religion may be or how many people have bad experiences.

[edit] Sociological definitions of religion

According to what is one common typology among sociologists, religious groups are classified as ecclesias, denominations, cults or sects.

A very common definition in the sociology of religion for cult is one of the four terms making up the church-sect typology. Under this definition, a cult refers to a religious group with a high degree of tension with the surrounding society combined with novel religious beliefs. This is distinguished from sects, which have a high degree of tension with society but whose beliefs are traditional to that society, and ecclesias and denominations, which are groups with a low degree of tension and traditional beliefs.

According to Rodney Stark's the Theory of Religion, most religions start out their lives as cults or sects, i.e. groups in high tension with the surrounding society. Over time, they tend to either die out, or become more established, mainstream and in less tension with society. Cults are new groups with a novel theology, while sects are attempts to return mainstream religions to (what the sect views as) their original purity.[3]

Since this definition of "cult" is defined in part in terms of tension with the surrounding society, the same group may both be a cult and not a cult at different places and times. For example, Christianity was a cult by this definition in 1st and 2nd century Rome, but in fifth century Rome it is no longer a cult but rather an ecclesia (the state religion). Or similarly, very conservative Islam would (when adopted by Westerners) constitute a cult in the West, but the ecclesia in some conservative Muslim countries (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan under the Taliban). Likewise, because novelty of beliefs as well as tension is an element in the definition: in India, the Hare Krishnas are not a cult, but rather a sect (since their beliefs are largely traditional to Hindu culture), but they are by this definition a cult in the Western world (since their beliefs are largely novel to Christian culture).

The English sociologist Roy Wallis[4] argues that a cult is characterized "epistemological individualism" by which he means that "the cult has no clear locus of final authority beyond the individual member." Cults, according to Wallis, are generally described as "oriented towards the problems of individuals, loosely structured, tolerant, non-exclusive", making "few demands on members", without possessing a "clear distinction between members and non-members", having "a rapid turnover of membership", and are transient collectives with vague boundaries and fluctuating belief systems Wallis asserts that cults emerge from the "cultic milieu". Wallis contrast a cult with a sect that he asserts are characterized by "epistemological authoritarianism": sects possess some authoritative locus for the legitimate attribution of heresy. According to Wallis, "sects lay a claim to possess unique and privileged access to the truth or salvation and their committed adherents typically regard all those outside the confines of the collectivity as 'in error'".[5][6]

[edit] Psychological definition

Coercive persuasion suppresses ability of people to reason, think critically, and make choices in their own best interest. Studies of religious, political, and other cults have identified key steps in coercive persuasion: [7] People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations; their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized; they receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from the leader; they get a new identity based on the group; they are subject to entrapment and their access to information is severely controlled.[8]

[edit] Definition of 'cult' according to secular opposition

Secular cult opponents define a "cult" as a religious or non-religious group that tends to manipulate, exploit, and control its members. Here are two definitions by Michael Langone and Louis Jolyon West, scholars who are widely recognized among the secular cult opposition:

Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders. 1

"A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community." 8

Michael Langone has attempted to address the issue of multiple definitions of "cult".[9]

A more purely sociological definition was proposed by T. Robbins and D. Anthony (1982:283, quoted in Richardson 1993:351):

"...certain manipulative and authoritarian groups which allegedly employ mind control and pose a threat to mental health are universally labeled cults. These groups are usually 1) authoritarian in their leadership; 2)communal and totalistic in their organization; 3) aggressive in their proselytizing; 4) systematic in their programs of indoctrination; 5)relatively new and unfamiliar in the United states; 6)middle class in their clientele"

The common anti-cult definition summarised,

* Manipulative and authoritarian mind control over members
* Communal and totalistic in their organisation
* Aggressive in proselytizing
* Systematic program of indoctrination
* New membership of cults by middle class

[edit] Definition of 'cult' in popular culture

In his book In Our Time, Tom Wolfe defines a cult as a religion without political power.

[edit] Differing opinions of the various definitions

Unlike popular definitions, sociological definitions exclude considerations of harm and abuse and are not used in a pejorative manner.

According to professor Timothy Miller from the University of Kansas, in his 2003 Religious Movements in the United States, during the controversies over the new religious movements in the 1960s, the term "cult" came to mean something sinister, generally used to describe a movement that was at least potentially destructive to its members or to society, or that took advantage of its members and engaged in unethical practices. But he argues that no one yet has been able to define "cult" in a way that enables the term to identify only problematic groups. Miller asserts that the attributes of groups often refered to as cults (see cult checklist), as defined by cult opponents, can be found in groups that few would consider cultic, such as Catholic religious orders or many evangelical Protestant churches. Miller argues:

If the term does not enable us to distinguish between a pathological group and a legitimate one, then it has no real value. It is the religious equivalent of the racial term for African Americans[Quotation from source requested on talk page to verify interpretation of source]—it conveys disdain and prejudice without having any valuable content. 31

Due to the usually pejorative connotation of the word "cult," new religious movements (NRMs) and other purported cults often find the word highly offensive. Some purported cults have been known to insist that other similar groups are cults but that they themselves are not. On the other hand, some skeptics have questioned the distinction between a cult and a mainstream religion. They say that the only difference between a cult and a religion is that the latter is older and has more followers and, therefore, seems less controversial because society has become used to it. See also anti-cult movement and Opposition to cults and new religious movements.

Christianity and definitions of "cults"

Since at least the 1940s, the approach of orthodox, conservative, or fundamentalist Christians was to apply the meaning of cult such that it included those religious groups who used (possibly exclusively) non-standard translations of the Bible, put additional revelation on a similar or higher level than the Bible, or had beliefs and/or practices deviant from those of traditional Christianity.

Antipasti, perhaps your definition of cult differs from most peoples, here's one popular definition...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_%28religious_practice%29

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You would perhaps prefer to define them thus...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#Dictiona...s_of_.22cult.22

Your definition is rather a narrow one.

Quite. I chose to present the info in that way, rather than just provide links, to illustrate the variety of ways the word 'cult' can be used, and also to point to the fact that you see it in narrow terms; only applicable to Christianity.

If you return now to the statement I made using the term: it was used clearly in an anthropological sense, without any religious or doctrinal hangups.
This thread was about Noah's Ark, and since the topic has become somewhat exhausted it has turned...as so many of these threads seem to ...to dragons, your views on either would be appreciated.

Most people here have been to school, and often write in a relaxed manner, usually coherent. The odd spelling mistake, grammatical error or any other minor oversight is frequently bypassed as the general sense of what is being said is usually conveyed, unless clarification is required.

btw welcome to UM