The Grigori are a group of fallen angels told of in Biblical apocrypha who mated with mortal women, giving rise to a race of hybrids known as the Nephilim, who are described as giants in Genesis 6:4. Also known as "Watchers" (from Greek egrḗgoroi), the Grigori appear in the books of Enoch and Jubilees.

According to the Book of Enoch, the Grigori numbered a total of 200 but only their leaders are named:

These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Saraknyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Anane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Azazyel (also known as Azazel). These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them. (Enoch 7:9)
In Enoch, the Watchers are angels apparently dispatched to Earth simply to watch over the humans. They soon begin to lust for the human women they see, and at the prodding of their leader Samyaza, they defect en masse to marry and live among the humans. The children produced by these relationships are the Nephilim, savage giants who pillage the earth and endanger humanity. Samyaza, Azazel, and the others become corrupt, and teach their human hosts to make metal weapons, cosmetics, and other necessities of civilization that had been kept secret. But the humans are dying and cry to the heavens for help. God sends the Great Flood to rid the earth of the Nephilim, but sends Uriel to warn Noah so as not to eradicate the human race. The Grigori are bound "in the valleys of the Earth" until Judgement Day. (See Jude 1:6)

The Watchers story in Enoch is derived from Genesis chapter 6. Verses 1-4 describe the "Origin of the Nephilim" and mention the "Sons of God" who beget them:

When men began to multiply on earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of heaven saw how beautiful the daughters of man were, and so they took for their wives as many of them as they chose. Then the Lord said: "My spirit shall not remain in man forever, since he is but flesh. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years." At that time the Nephilim appeared on earth (as well as later), after the sons of heaven had intercourse with the daughters of man, who bore them sons. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown. (Genesis 6:1-4)
Here, the "sons of heaven" are given no specific name or function; they could represent fallen angels, or simply heavenly beings that mate with human women.

The Book of Jubilees adds further details about the Watchers. While "Watchers" or "Sentinels" are mentioned alongside the "holy ones" in the Book of Daniel, it is doubtful they have any connection to the Grigori. The angels were fairly popular in Jewish folklore, which often describes them as looking like large human beings that never sleep and remain forever silent. While there are good and bad Watchers, most stories revolve around the evil ones that fell from grace when they took "the daughters of man" as their mates.

The Aliens are the Nephilims of Genesis 6! (Chuck Missler; cxcellent video: the truth about Area 51!)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=46...q=chuck+missler

So...not hot chicks go to Heaven huh.................lesson learned

Is it just me, or does there seem to be more merging of the Cryptozoology forums and the Religious/spirituality forums lately? Unnerving, to say the least.

book of enoch??? from what bible is this book from???

your're right, and since the popular Christian mythology implies these watchers are a kind of humanoid angel, they do not fit in the cryptid section. But there is more to the story, for most people know so little about this. The watcher's in fact, in the ancient accounts, are not human-like at all, but are intelligent reptiles which the Creator used to assist in the development of mankind. And this makes sense, becasue if evolution is real, there can't be any "angelic humanoid beings" before the evolution of normal humanoid beings, but on the other hand, the first creatures that physiologically have bodied thaat could be used by a sentient creature, might be a theropod dinosaur that our ancestors might have called "dragons". And in both the watcher legends, and later medieval ones, these "dragons" seem to have a 'taste' for beautiful women, in more ways than one. But could a reptile produce offspring with a mammal? No, of course not. This is simply the incorporation of two seperate stories of two seperate creatures into one.

The Nephilim have nothing to do with the watcher "dragons". They are man's distant memories of our Neanderthal competitors. If the watcher's do have a connection, it might only be the watchers utterly exterminated them to prevent their mixing with the homo sapien gene pool.

So if "nessie" and similar cryptids are actually sentient, even supernatural "watchers", it might explain why we will continue to see them, but never catch them, or even get a closer look than a blurry distant photo.

If that's the case, then why are they still here? And why the secrecy? Were just humans, after all.

Most of them seem to be in the dimension known as heaven, though some are either exiled here or on what might be referred to as a "vaction" to hunt and fish, since manna is such a boring and unnatural food for a carnivorous reptile.

If they were revealed, then people would adopt religion based on fear, rather than faith.

Some would say were there already, but that's a discussion for another time and forum.

It's from the apocrypha, but is still considered holy scripture in Ethiopia and "complete" bibles. It was taken out for the reasons of being too long, not dealing with earthly affairs, and being too fantastical to be generally accepted by the public.

I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere, but what are these 'ancient accounts' you mention? From what little reading I have done on Watchers, they appear aligned with fallen angels and angelic beings. The Biblical accounts are the sources I am familiar with, if other sources exist that equate the Watchers mentioned in both Hebrew and early Christian texts, but describe them as reptilian, that would be interesting to me.

The Testament of Amram gives one of the few actual descriptions of Watchers, and says:One of them was Terrifying in his appearance, like a serpent.

Another account, in Enoch describes heavenly creatures guarding sheol that had heads like seprents full of sharp teeth and eyes that blowed like lamps.

The Apoclypse of Baruch describes dragons in heaven that consumed the souls of the wicked.

The highest heavenly creatures, the Seraphim, were winged serpents as the word means in Hebrew, and to removed all doubt, when the Hebrew texts were translated to Greek by the Jewish priests themselves, as we see in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

These dragons seem to be the most ancient heavenly creatures in other religions too. This may suggest an acknowledgement of evolution and the fossil record inasmuch as large winged reptiles existed millions of years before mankind had evolved, and with it, angels based on humans. The oldest "angels" then, would be reptilian, and the real Bible bears this out.

There are NO winged humanoid angels in the Bible. This is pagan nonsense added by the early Christians who had believed in the winged humaoid demigods of greece and rome. Biblical angels are flesh and blood humans that must eat food to live. The winged creatures are of a higher order, and are described as flying serpents or dragons. But these creatures go back to the Sumerian origins of Judaism, the God Enki called the great dragon, built the Garden of Eden and would trick Adam out of Eternal Life. And the storm dragon Enlil would try to destroy mankind with a great flood, but his brother Enki would warn "Noah". These stories of dragon gods formed the basis of the Genesis stories. Yahewh was originally not God, but the watcher dragon of the Hebrews. Elohim was the high God, but later the Hebrews melded them into one.

The notion of angels or dragons rebelling from God has nothing to do with the Bible though. This was based on the dualism of Persian Zoroastrianism on which much of Christian dogma was based.

Inasmuch as Google is a great friend to all of us here, and Wikipedia a friend as well, I offer the text you refer to, found here in whole.
I am somewhat confused though, as the text obviously labels the serpentine Watcher as the evil one, as many fallen angels were labeled.
"They said to me, 'Which of us do you choose to rule you?' I raised my eyes and looked. One of them was terrifying in his appearance, like a serpent, his cloak, many-colored yet very dark. ... And I looked again, and in his appearance, his visage like a viper. ... I replied to him, 'This Watcher, who is he?' He answered, 'This Watcher ... his three names are Belial and Prince of Darkness and King of Evil.' I said (to the other Watcher), 'My lord, what dominion (have you?)' He answered, 'You saw (the viper), and he is empowered over all Darkness, while I (am empowered over all Light.) ... My three names are Michael, Prince of Light and King of Righteousness.'"


I was unable to track this specific instance down.



I did find this reference, but from what I read in the Greek translation, the dragons mentioned were not in heaven, but in Hades. Full text here

The section I find pertinent reads as follows, " 4 And he showed me Hades, and its appearance was dark and abominable. And I said, 5 Who is this dragon, and who is this monster around him? And the angel said, The dragon is he 6 who eats the bodies of those who spend their life wickedly, and he is nourished by them. "

I cannot argue the translation, as I did not research the translations. It is interesting to note, however, that the wikipedia entry on Seraphim makes no mention of them being considered reptilian, even in Far Eastern thought. Entry here

I must admit to being thoroughly confused by this assertation. The Bible makes no mention of angels rebelling against God? Anywhere? Lucifer was not an angel? The Fallen were not angels? I can acknowledge that duality exists in many religions that predate Christianity and even Judaism, but to state that the notion itself has nothing to do with the Bible, when The Fall sets up the antagonist both for mankind and Heaven is, IMHO, shortsighted.

I don't really get it, DC, why's everything has to be reptilic and dragonic to you?

Cause thats how DC rolls.lol

So I am not the only one that has noticed this on the do dinosaurs exist thread and this thread? I'm guessing the Loch Ness threads are similarily affected?

^Affected? How?

Affected was the wrong word, my apologies....redirected, perhaps? If nothing else, (after reading the faerie thread and DC's take on it) you have to admire his singlemindedness.

^WOW! I thought you are just a simple believer! My bad! I admit that I was wrong.
Yeah, I agree with you, he's such a singleminded and are sooooo reptilic...I'm not even sure if 'reptilic' is an English word.

Have no idea, I could check the Compedium of Lost Words, but we're getting off topic.

Speaking of, beyond the definition of Grigori, what is the topic? If we postulate that they are cryptozoids, which I take to mean previously undiscovered creatures still extant in the world, then don't we need to boot the pan dimensional/other dimensional critters into the appropriate venue? And if this is the case, what if any evidence suggests Watchers/Grigori are cryptozoids like BF, Nessie or Fae folk? Or vampires, or hey, werewolves?

(sorry, my particular interest is showing...)

Baruch is being shown heaven by the angel, not hell, becasue there is no underground "cartoon" hell in the theology at this time. What the angel says is the belly of the dragon is Hades, but they are still in heaven. I have never seen your version before. I don't think it works when you put it all together. heaven has diferent "levels" and these dragons of punishment are in that level.

Dante bascially invented "Christian cartoon Hell" Before that, virtually every church had a carving of these heavenly dragons of Baruch, with angels herding sinners into their throat. When Dante's book came out people enjoyed it for Dante was able to escape hell in the story, which gave people hope, whereas no one imagined they could escape from the belly of the dragon.

Wiki articles are only as good as the poster. If a poster doesn't want the Seraphim to be dragons or winged serpents, he will leave that part out. There are many better sources that confirm what I am saying, the Jewish Encyclopedia for one. they actually know what the hebrew words mean. I believe the JE article also confirms that the greek translations in the Dead Sea Scrolls confirm that the ancient Jews acknowledged the seraphim were dragons as they translated them to Drakons.

There are even dragons on the temple menorah and they were also the creatures on the ark of the covenant. Talmudic laws carefully described how the heavenly dragons could be depicted on templ furniture, so they would not be confused with pagan dragons. Holy dragons were smooth, unholy dragons had spines. Some Christians get terribly uptight about such things, and don't seem to want dragons in "their" heaven, despite what their own scriptures say. If you are interested in this subject, my book that explains the whole thing should be out this year. I'll let you know.

Satan never rebells from God in the Old Testament, he is his loyal assistant and called a son of God in the Book of Job. Nor is there such an angel called Lucifer. This is a christian mistranslation of a passage abut the prince of Tyre. Jews never acknowledged Lucifer, nor does Jesus, because the Christians had not invented him until hundreds of years later.

They never tell you the cool stuff about heavenly dragons in Sunday School.
DC

nice link
Jewish encyclopedia entry for Tannin
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...p;search=tannin

and its plural

and heres dragon


funny that
no wings
no firey breath
sea creatures

you claimed this as a source Dragon Chronic
but apparently it contradicts everything you have ever said
have you read it or are you just pretending to know stuff again


while we're on the subject of Jewish literature
heres what Isaiah says about seraphim
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et1006.htm
.
oh look
not reptiles

They are winged serpents accrding to the Jewish Encylcopedia, here's the quote

According to a third and more probable theory, the seraphim originally were serpents, as the name implies. Among many peoples of antiquity serpents played an important part in myth and folk-lore. For instance, there were Tiamat in the Babylonian legend of the Creation, and the Uræus serpent in Egypt. Consequently, since the Jews shared the superstitious ideas of surrounding nations in other respects, it should not be a matter of wonder if they adopted this notion as well. That the serpent filled a special rôle among them as a demoniacal being may be seen from the story of Adam's fall (Gen. iii.). In this connection the names "Dragon Spring" and "Serpent Pool" (places in the vicinity of Jerusalem) are worthy of being noted. A brazen serpent brings relief from the effects of the bite of the fiery serpents (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.) which Yhwh sent among his disobedient people in the wilderness. Isaiah (xiv. 29, ***. 6) speaks of fiery, flying serpents and dragons; and a brazen serpent, Nehushtan, stood in the Temple at Jerusalem, and was an object of worship until the time of Hezekiah, who destroyed it as being idolatrous (II Kings xviii. 4 et seq.). The worship of Nehushtan was plainly a remnant of ancient superstition, and was reconciled with the worship of Yhwh by connecting Nehushtan with the scourge of snakes in the wilderness and the rescue from them (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.). Therefore the theory seems possible, even probable, that the seraphim have their counterpart in the flying serpents of Isaiah (comp. also II Esd. xv. 29). It is only natural that these winged guardians of Yhwh's throne were soon ranked as higher beings and invested with the human form or with some features of the human body; and it was because of the very fact that they were adopted into the Yhwh cult that they were, in process of time, ennobled and spiritualized

Many sources state the fire spewing Leviathan is a reptile, the idea of a fish spewing fire is ridiculous. Leviathan is often intechanged with dragon in biblical texts.

Tannin is used for the creature that transforms from the staff thrown down by Moses. It must be a kind of serpent or dragon in this passage. It cannot be a whale. The Fiery serpent of moses is called a Seraph, singular for Seraphim in the Hebrew Bbile. Later when it is worshiped in the temple it is called a Nahsh tan which means serpen dragon. Not serpent whale.

Now that peple no longer believe in dragons, creatures that were once called dragons, are now called whales, but this is ridiculous becasue in many passages they are described on the land.


Talmudic laws actually describe how the Holy Drakons must be depicted. They can be seen on the sacred temple menorah

A winged drakon with arms and legs saws stones to make the temple in the Testament of Solomon.

The Dead Sea Scrolls have the greek were Drakon replacing the hebrew word Seraphim, done by Jewsih priests themselves on the oldest Biblical scriptures in the world.

You will never credibly dispute my information. I know far more about this than you do.

apollyon, how did I have the feeling that you would show up here? ~chuckles~ Welcome, I read your responses to DC in the thread regarding gigantic creatures in the Bible.
DC, as before, in quite a few other threads I have read while making my way around these forums, you cite sources, then do not disclose these references. Your criticism of Wikipedia and its spawns is rather unfounded, it is open source media, subject to editing and re-write by anyone on the Internet. I am not familiar with the review process for Wiki entries, although I am certain it has more to do with scholarly support then popular acclaim. If you have such issue with the open source media that is Wiki, perhaps you could present your mass of scientific evidence, both expert opinion and proven translation, to Wikipedia, and get these horrendous inaccuracies cleared up, no?

While I encourage healthy debate, gentlemen, both of you, the discussion of the origins of Dragons is off topic, I believe. Please confine your discussion on this thread to the Watchers/Grigori origins that are the basis of this post. Personally, as i have now seen the effect of this particular war on other threads, I will not be paying attention to any other off topic threads.
DC, can you provide anything beyond the information already cited in Amram, where Watchers, one Watcher, is described as "serpent-like"? This is hardly a majority in a group numbering 200 by all biblical reports.

In addition, if we could nail down whether Watchers/Grigori are cryptids as we understand them by the definition provided on this site, we may further narrow the focus of this particular debate. I found the definition here.

I suppose its a stretch but the entry does indicate that these unknowns are supported by both eyewitness repoorts, and inconclusive physical evidence. While I am certain the eyewitness reports are many, does even one ion of physical evidence exist? If not, is the Watcher /Grigori even a cryptid?

Watchers can be defined as a cryptid inasmuch as they are the original "dragons" of the ancient human cultures. The cultural evidence is the fact that virtually every human cultures acknowledged the existence of these creatures, UNLIKE every other cryptic animal. As far as physical evidence, none have seemed to have died, or they are careful to hide or destroy the bodies of their dead. A verse in Deuteronomy identifies the watchers as the "sons of Elohim", and the creator assigned the various ones to "adopt" human tribes. The oldest written records of this are the Sumerian legends in which each dragon founds a city state. The dragon which would later be known as Satan founded Eridu and built the Garden of Eden. His brother Enlil, would later be known as Yahweh, and adopted the nomadic hebrews after drowning his original group in a localized flood. All of these "gods" are referred to as "great serpent dragons of heaven" by their worshippers, and each "watched over their adopted city state or tribe. This seems to be the case in China, and other cradles of civilization as well,as well, though at a certain time when humans reached the necessary level of development, the watchers were expelled from the cities and in many cases, the dragon gods would be given more and more human traits until their reptilian origins are sometimes difficult to trace.

Understand that both the Enochian and Christian literature stem from the time Judaism had been infected with pagan zoroastrian ideas of dualism, in which an evil devil-dragon wages an eternal battle with a good good, that will end in an apocolyptic battle in which the dragon is defeated. It was not until this time so we see stories of angels revolting from God. Enoch is probably an amalgamation of ideas, which is why some of the creatures are distinctly reptilian and actually identified as Drakons, while others were humanoid angels. The Judaic angels of the Old Testament are flesh and blood humans. They do not have wings, must eat food, and can have sex with women. New Testament spirit angels are largely taken from pagan greek mythology, with the greek word being retained for the supposedly evil ones, "daemons". The Nephilm were neither Seraph-dragon-human hybrids or angel-human offsring.... they were ancient man's memories of a competing species we call the Neanderthals, and a legend to explain why they were different from themselves, and why they had vanished.

The Seraphim article is a perfect example of how unliable this source of information Wiki can be. If the writer is a religious person biased against the fact the very name in Hebrew indicates the highest ranked heavenly creatures are reptilian in nature, understandably identical to the throne guarding dragons of the other near eastern cultures, then the poster simply leaves out that information. The Jewish Encyclopedia, on the other hand, is written by real Hebrew scholars, and therefore the true origins of the word, as well as the connection with the winged brazen serpent of Moses, must be addressed. When my book is published, many Wiki articles will require corrections.

Precisely! Also if you look in the "revered" JE under angelogy you will see that the seraphim are considered in the rank of angels. Also the root word for seraphim is "saraph" and anyone can study the hebrew meaning of it by examinig the usage of those scriptures. You will find it always simply means "fiery" or "burning" and has absolutely nothing to do with any creature including fabled dragons. However when seraphim are described they appear fiery but obviously with human features that the JE commentary also agrees with.

Are you high moondog? Here is the summation of the Jewish encyclopedia article below. what part of "Third and MOST PROBABLE theory" don't you understand? In case you do not understand English, this means that the "fiery flying serpent" translation is MORE PROBABLE than your cartoon angels. Notice that these expert Hebrew speakers also say the word Seraphim actually MEANS fiery flying serpents. They are saying exactly what I am saying, they were originally conceived as winged reptiles, but exposure to PAGAN classical winged demigods made both the medieval Chrisitans and Jews to fashion them in the pagan fashipn of winged humanoids = cartoon angels.

And this was written before the discovery of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS, where the word DRAKONS is substituted for the word SERAPHIM. This may surprise you moondog, but I'm willing to bit the Ancient Jewish Priests and Rabbis knew more about the Bible and the Hebrew language than modern christian sunday school teachers and their harp strumming, swan winged, cartoon angel Seraphim.

"According to a third and more probable theory, the seraphim originally were serpents, as the name implies. Among many peoples of antiquity serpents played an important part in myth and folk-lore. For instance, there were Tiamat in the Babylonian legend of the Creation, and the Uræus serpent in Egypt. Consequently, since the Jews shared the superstitious ideas of surrounding nations in other respects, it should not be a matter of wonder if they adopted this notion as well. That the serpent filled a special rôle among them as a demoniacal being may be seen from the story of Adam's fall (Gen. iii.). In this connection the names "Dragon Spring" and "Serpent Pool" (places in the vicinity of Jerusalem) are worthy of being noted. A brazen serpent brings relief from the effects of the bite of the fiery serpents (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.) which Yhwh sent among his disobedient people in the wilderness. Isaiah (xiv. 29, ***. 6) speaks of fiery, flying serpents and dragons; and a brazen serpent, Nehushtan, stood in the Temple at Jerusalem, and was an object of worship until the time of Hezekiah, who destroyed it as being idolatrous (II Kings xviii. 4 et seq.). The worship of Nehushtan was plainly a remnant of ancient superstition, and was reconciled with the worship of Yhwh by connecting Nehushtan with the scourge of snakes in the wilderness and the rescue from them (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.). Therefore the theory seems possible, even probable, that the seraphim have their counterpart in the flying serpents of Isaiah (comp. also II Esd. xv. 29). It is only natural that these winged guardians of Yhwh's throne were soon ranked as higher beings and invested with the human form or with some features of the human body; and it was because of the very fact that they were adopted into the Yhwh cult that they were, in process of time, ennobled and spiritualized"