Ok, though I don’t believe that Pacal was an astronaut, I will share this with you all to see what are the opinions on the subject. The site you will find in the link below argues the possibilities of Pacal the Great being an “astronaut” or a being from the other world.
I personally think that the drawings presented in the site its just some kind of exaltation of their king and that people misunderstand the characteristics drawings of Aztecs, Mayans and Incas.

Nevertheless, it’s a good reading. You decide in what to believe.

Here we go: http://www.earthmatrix.com/serie26/pakal-01.htm

The drawing in question shows Pacal descending into the underworld, and is common among Mayan art for deceased leaders.

yes I'm constantly surprised that some people don't know the difference or what site is attributed to which culture

Yup! That, they say is the “conventional” interpretation of that drawing, some believe that it is space ship and that it is the machine Pacal came from the underworld.

I personally can’t see any space ship there!

Well in thier mythology they said he did come from the sky in a feathered serpent.
isnt it also funny how all our gods come from the sky.

actually they said that they came from heaven
heaven in the ancient world was always a mountain top, Valhalla, Mt Meru Mt Sumeru Mt Olympus etc
it wasn't until Judaism that Heaven moved into outer space
thats why gods are repeatedly stated as "coming down" in ancient texts
not because they are spacemen
but because they live higher up than mankind
of course now the meaning of heaven has changed from "mountain" to "outer space" people often get it wrong
the ancients believed that the earth was suspended in a bubble and surrounded by water
they only knew about 5 other planets
these beliefs they wouldn't have if they knew someone from out there
its history
not sci fi

Sorry, so you say that they indeed meet someone of another world? Or you’re saying that they don’t? Don’t laugh, sometimes I have difficult with English….

Point is that in thier mythology they said the founder of thier civlisation came from the sky in a feathered serpent. and i dont think these indians knew of judiasm or anything much else outside thier own terrotorys.

What they new exactly is kind of hard to tell. They practically didn’t left anything recorded in scriptures, etc. All we know are the drawings, sculptures, etc.
It seems that there is a pictogram scheme but it haven’t being completely deciphered yet. Who knows what they really knew? But, if they had contact with a more advanced civilization, probably archeologists would find better and clear evidences than this drawing/sculpture of a king…

In Aztec religion, Quetzalcoatl (IPA: [ketsalˈkoː.aːtɬ]) was a benefactor god, considered a leader among the deities, that would come back after his departure to take back the empire. This feathered serpent god was connected to the planet Venus. Today Quetzalcoatl is the most well-known Aztec deity, and is often thought to have been the principal Aztec god. Some scholars think that Quetzalcoatl was just one god in a pantheon of gods, not considered superior to the others.[
REad more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/q/quetzalcoatl.html

http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/~nahualli/Qu...coatl/Intro.htm

so where does it say he came from the sky
you don't remember for instance an incident with a serpent boat ?

You mean the serpent skyboat?

Obviously a reference to ancient UFOs (unbelievably foolish opinions.)

Harte

here follows a translation of part of the Mayan the book of creation, the Popol Vuh:

"The Popol Vuh is the creation story of the Maya. Below is one part of this story that recounts the first attempts of the creator, Heart of Sky to make humans. The story goes on to explain that the final attempt, that resulted int the "True people" was accomplished by constructing people with maize. This is a very reasonable explanation since, in essence, it was the cultivation of maize that gave the early Maya culture the means to change from hunters gatherers to their highly advanced civilization.
I have edited this sample, based on the wonderful translation by Dennis Tedlock. His book is available through Amazon.com and is listed below. I've also included here a few preliminary illustrations I would like to use on an interactive CD someday.

THE CREATION

Here is the story of the beginning,
when there was not one bird,
not one fish,
not one mountain.
Here is the sky, all alone.
Here is the sea, all alone.
There is nothing more
–no sound, no movement.
Only the sky and the sea.
Only Heart-of-Sky, alone.
And these are his names:
Maker and Modeler,
Kukulkan,
and Hurricane.
But there is no one to speak his names.
There is no one to praise his glory.
There is no one to nurture his greatness.



And so Heart-of-Sky thinks,
"Who is there to speak my name?
Who is there to praise me?
How shall I make it dawn?"
Heart-of-Sky only says the word,
"Earth,"
and the earth rises,
like a mist from the sea.
He only thinks of it,
and there it is.

He thinks of mountains,
and great mountains come.
He thinks of trees,
and trees grow on the land.

And so Heart-of-Sky says,
"Our work is going well."

Now Heart-of-Sky plans the creatures of the forest
-birds, deer, jaguars and snakes.
And each is given his home.
"You the deer, sleep here along the rivers.
You the birds, your nests are in the trees.
Multiply and scatter," he tells them.

Then Heart-of-Sky says to the animals,
"Speak, pray to us."
But the creatures can only squawk.
The creatures only howl.
They do not speak like humans.
They do not praise Heart-of-Sky
And so the animals are humbled.
They will serve those who will worship Heart-of-Sky.

And Heart-of-Sky tries again.
Tries to make a giver of respect.
Tries to make a giver of praise.



Here is the new creation,
made of mud and earth.
It doesn't look very good.
It keeps crumbing and softening.
It looks lopsided and twisted.
It only speaks nonsense.
It cannot multiply.
So Heart-of-Sky lets it dissolved away.

Now Heart-of-Sky plans again.
Our Grandfather and Our Grandmother are summoned.
They are the most wise spirits.
"Determine if we should carve people from wood,"
commands Heart-of-Sky.

They run their hands over the kernels of corn.
They run their hands over the coral seeds.
"What can we make that will speak and pray?
asks Our Grandfather.
What can we make that will nurture and provide?"
asks Our Grandmother.
They count the days,
the lots of four,
seeking an answer for Heart-of-Sky.

Now they give the answer,
"It is good to make your people with wood.
They will speak your name.
They will walk about and multiply."
"So it is," replies Heart-of-Sky.

And as the words are spoken, it is done.
The doll-people are made
with faces carved from wood.
But they have no blood, no sweat.
They have nothing in their minds.
They have no respect for Heart-of-Sky.
They are just walking about,
But they accomplish nothing.

"This is not what I had in mind,"
says Heart-of-Sky.
And so it is decided to destroy
these wooden people.

Hurricane makes a great rain.
It rains all day and rains all night.
There is a terrible flood
and the earth is blackened.
The creatures of the forest
come into the homes of the doll-people.

"You have chased us from our homes
so now we will take yours,"
they growl.
And their dogs and turkeys cry out,
"You have abused us
so now we shall eat you!"
Even their pots and grinding stones speak,
"We will burn you and pound on you
just as you have done to us!"

The wooden people scatter into the forest.
Their faces are crushed,
and they are turned into monkeys.
And this is why monkeys look like humans.
They are what is left of what came before,
an experiment in human design."

Note that the creator is referred to as 'heart of sky' not "heart of mountain" but of 'sky'

You will also find an illustrated list of all the Mayan gods on the excellent site from which the above translation was taken:

http://www.jaguar-sun.com/popolvuh.html

that website mentioned that was an edited version
the full version can be read here
http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/maya/pvgm/

pay attention to the preamble where it states

the popul vuh was not written by a maya indian
its believed it was written by a second generation half blood christian convert as an attempt to reconcile the faith of his ancestors with that of christianity
in other words its post colombian and does not represent the beliefs of the Maya at all
most authors leave this little bit of information out when they attempt to prove that its evidence of a link between the old and new worlds (Atlantis, Aliens, Ass)
Graham Hancock most famously did this in fingerpaints of the gods when he did a comparison between the themes of the Popul Vuh and the Bible
he didn't think it important to mention that not only was the author familiar with the bible but was actually a christian himself
ce la vie

Thats right. The reading above is pretty cool but its pos-columbian. So far, there is no record of a Mayan text, there are pictograms which were not translated yet. At least not fully translated. I will try to find something to post here about it.

Sorry a little off topic, just got a call, im in London in August for a few days. anyone recommend the best museum to visit while im there, ive a free morning when im there.

Depends what you're looking for. PM me if you want info...

Hey Emma, i plan on going to jolly ol England too one of these days, maybe on a pub-crawl or something, could use a tour guide?!


LOL!!!!!

Guys, lets avoid offtopic discussion, the topic is going well. Lets keep it going on.

There are actually four books that survived the Spanish Conquest, and all of them have been translated.

The Mayan glyphs were first translated in the early eighties. This gives VonDaniken some scant cover for his Pacal astronaut claim, but it's early enough that it exposes Graham Hancock's insertion of this VonDaniken hypothesis into his book (Fingerprints of the Gods) for what it is - a baldfaced attempt to cheat the ignorant out of their hard earned money.

Not that VonDaniken was any better - but at least when he made this silly claim they had yet to completely translate Mayan Glyphs.

Harte

Harte

Humm. Thx Harte, didn't know about this, well, I'm no expert in this culture anyway.
Do you have any link to the stories you just mentioned?

theyre called codices

http://www.answers.com/topic/maya-codices
see the Catholics destroyed the works as pagan because they didn't like the idea of a resurecting god who had a cross for a symbol

most of you won't get that one

You may find this site interesting although it tends to be more in depth than my usual sites. It provides the full text of the Popol Vuh and notes that:

"A Swiss-born ethnologist, Raphael Girard came to the New World in 1919 as the director of a six-man French scientific mission to study the native forest peoples of Honduras. He returned in 1924 to live in Guatemala and begin an archaeological and ethnological survey of the country, which resulted in a lifetime of association with and research in Amerindian cultures ranging from Patagonia to Canada. From the eminent anthropologists, Dr. Eugéne Pittard of the University of Geneva, and Dr. Paul Rivet, then director of the Musée de l'homme in Paris, Girard learned the interdisciplinary method of analysis -- employing mythology, ethnography, archaeology, and linguistics -- which has characterized and enriched his many published works.

In his early career the author was active in forming and participating in professional bodies in Switzerland, Honduras, and Guatemala to further the study of native American cultures. Over the years he has represented the Government of Guatemala at a number of international Americanist congresses, on four occasions serving as honorary vice-president of the congress. A distinguished Americanist whose work is well known throughout Europe and the Americas, Professor Girard has received fifteen honors and decorations. The latest of these is the Diploma of Merit awarded him for his more than 50 years of research and publication by the Organization of American States in October, 1978, at a ceremony in Washington, D.C. In 1977 he was nominated for the Nobel prize in Literature for his pioneering methods of study of native American cultures and his monumental writings clarifying their prehistory and history.

With regard to his analysis of the meaning of the Popol Vuh, the Mayan "Book of the Community," Professor Girard's comments from a recent letter to me are revealing:

My first experiences disclosed that the Popol Vuh constitutes a key document for understanding the spirituality, culture, and history of the Quiché-Maya. But no exegesis had been made of that celebrated document owing to the disregard of its esoteric meaning, and so it was never employed as a research tool. Much the same held true for Quiché-Maya religion and its symbols which, it was claimed, were completely inaccessible to our mode of thought. . . .
It was vital and necessary to study their sacred way of life. Only this method, in my view, would allow us entry into the mental universe of the Mayas and bring comprehension of their mythology and thus of their culture.
To accomplish this, the author went to the tribal elders of the Chortí and Quiché-Maya tribes, where he quickly encountered the barriers of impenetrable reserve which those spiritual leaders -- guardians of their sacred traditions -- erect to defend these precious values from the unworthy and the potential despoiler. Only after more than twenty years of direct association with the elders was Girard able to obtain the fundamental aspects of their secret doctrines which he reports upon in this work. Esotericism of the Popol Vuh demonstrates beyond question that at the heart of Maya religion and custom there is a sophisticated spiritual philosophy with clear correspondences not only to ancient Mexican as well as Andean cosmogony and creation mythology, but also to the mythoi and cultures of other parts of the world.

The author fully credits the "native gnostics," as he respectfully calls the Mayan elders, with enabling him to distill and elucidate the hidden sense of the Popol Vuh. But I believe he would be the last person to claim any ultimate finality for his work. His findings, nevertheless, comprise a genuinely authoritative approach to the solution of many of the so-called enigmas surrounding our knowledge of pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures, and are unprecedented in American ethnography. In his exposition, the author takes us behind the elliptical wording of the text into the spiritual heights and depths of conception that form the archetypes on which Amerindian metaphysics is modeled. "

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/popolvuh/pv-hp.htm

I will definitely take a look later! Thank you very much!

Ummm I think the guy that done the website had a bit too much time on his hands... I find it very unlikely that what he sees on the cover stone is actually true. Is there a link to the 4 translated books maybe?

feanor...ignore the mockery of these fools. Click on this link and you will see a beautiful carving depicting Pacal at the controls of his spaceship ready to return to his own planet.

http://www.mexicocitycollege.com/MCCrev/PacalSml.jpg

Guys, I hope non of you think that I believe its a space machine. I just brought up this post because that post Alexpap made. It relates to Pacal, just speculations.

I for one, didn't knew that the Mayan scriptins were translated, I read once they were just partially translated. I like all th links you guys posted here. Very cool indeed.

Cyall.

Speculation is GOOD......do not be put off by the self-appointed 'thought police' who prowl this forum.

is that the best you can do
repeated posts about the thought police
how about you try dealing with reality before attempting to label people who know more about these subjects than you do

I'm not going to argue with you....suffice to say....I've sussed you!

No. Some of the ancients of Rome and Greece and as well the Egyptians had many gods and goddesses whom were leaders of the Underworld, where they dwelled for eternal matters of those who would be worthy enough to join them in the afterlife. Hades, Land of the Undead, etc. All were places highly sough after by many who would sacrifice others in order to join the ranks of those who were exalted beneath the Earth's surface.

I think the sky and the underworld are related....the one leads to the other and vice versa.

oooh paranoia city
you've sussed me as what
someone who doesn't subscribe to the same ridiculous belief system you do
see i require facts to reach a hypothesis
it isn't based on whatevers showing on the sci fi channel this week

Most probably means, you belive what you are told by mainstream sources, who have thier own agenda, reputations, carrers, publishing deals, things they dont want disputed as thier livelyhood depends on it.
diffrence between you an most people here is, they can listen to all sides and make a decision weither its a loony theory or a solid one, where as you have only one side. at least they have theorys, right or wrong they are looking out side of the box.
here is a thought for ya.
there is more mystery in archelogy than fact.

rubbish
there is more mystery in pseudoarchaeology than fact
archaeology is actually a science that collects facts
but of course
wouldn't expect someone like you to know that when your posting a completely off topic personal attack
as for agendas
you'll find more of those in the fringe society than you will in the orthodox one
and no thats not the difference between me and most people here
the difference between me and most people here is that I actually do know what I'm talking about

next time youre looking outside of the box for your brain see if you can check how to spell archaeology correctly will ya
its getting funny that you are claiming things about a discipline you know nothing about and can't even spell

Not necessarily, as in the River Styx. Where the Underworld was in total anarchy from the forces above. The river dominates the landscape, and the distinction of good notion and evil are maintained by the borders of Styx.

OK then, the next time you are talking with an archaelogist ask him how much they actually know about mankinds history on a scale of 1 to 10. then ask how much they dont know on a scale of 1 to 10.

Guys, we are getting off topic and this way there is a high chance that this thread will turn into name calling and then moderators will close it.
I am no expert in other topics, like archaeology or ufo or cryptology and really, one thing is certain, if any of us here was an expert in something, we wouldn’t be wasting time on the internet. We would be doing real researches… Let’s at least stay on topic and avoid flaming, etc…

I do agree. lets keep it civil. thanks for the heads up Feanor.

thats a stupid question
archaeologists don't claim to know everything
they claim to want to uncover everything
if everything was known theyd be out of a job
do you even think of what youre typing in a reply Louie or are you posting on auto pilot ?