I was considering making this a poll question, except I'm not being shown any options for that.

Many religions have believed in reincarnation. Hindu, Buddhism, some forms of gnostic Christianity come to mind. The goal usually being to Ascend from the earth, to stop coming back, that the world isn't worth it and if we were pure of spirit we wouldn't want to live (here) again.

There's an old short story by Jack Finney, called "Of missing persons", where the protagonist has one chance to escape the miseries of this world and find a paradise on (another) earth, but loses that chance due to last moment feelings of cynicism and paranoia.

So I was wondering, how many people would? If tonight fate or an entity offered you the goal of enlightenment, to leave this world and it's endless wheels of karma, and just go ... could you? No chance for goodbyes or setting your affairs in order, very unlikely that you'll see again anyone you've known. The offer being that your soul will know freedom and that if/when you live again it will be in the company of other souls who've done the same, and that life will never again hurt on the inside the way it does here ...

Yes? No? Any thoughts on the general topic?

Interesting question, but flawed in one way. I may be wrong, but isn't it true that in most religions that embrace reincarnation, they also believe that the soul is able to reunite with other souls they have known in previous lives? I thought that most people who believe in reincarnation also believe that we come back with the same souls, that we have our own "soul family" that comes back in groups, each soul trading places in different roles, so to speak, but usually coming back together (maybe not all at once--that we trade off in lives, but we stick with the same souls). This may be a Gnostic or New Age thought, however, but is one that I tend to believe in.

So, if I could never again be reunited with my loved ones, no, I wouldn't go. I'd wait until I went through my life and keep the belief that my loved ones and I would be together again some day.

Have u heard of a teory (Force cannot be create nor be destroy and it can change it form to another form constantly) Our soul are like the force if we die we will lose our body but we will not lose your soul becouse our soul are belong in us and it is you. You can change to another form of living thing base on the contidition/time/karma.It will be a very very long story if i continue from here but i think i will only show u the tips of the iceberg now and its your turn to explore and experince the nature of recarnition. (sory for my bad spelling or grammer because English is not my first language)

Hi Howdy,

I've heard that too, about souls travelling in groups. I'm not sure if it's newage or not. But I wonder if we could really recognize souls anyways? If a loved one was replaced with a clone who wasn't obviously out of character, would we be able to sense their spirit was different? If we reincarnate and have that same love in a relationship, does it mean they are the same soul, or is it that the love we feel is ours and we can share it as we will?

I think, just for myself, if I was reborn in some far away place, I would still start out loving the family I was born to. As much as I started out loving the family I was born to in this life. And in that present, I would feel them my family, even if I eventually started to recall this life. And maybe if they were kinder souls, I could keep on loving them instead of becoming dismayed and disillusioned by their reality.

And hello, Hitozhu

Wolf in sheeps clothing

...Life, death, souls, its all the same wherever you are

Hell yes I would.
I look at it this way, no one really chooses there place and time of death. So if I gave up the chance to descend into such a great universe it would most likely be my luck that just as I say no and walk out the door a piano would fall on me.

If I didn't have kids I would. I would never leave my kids. They are my paradise on earth!

I kind of like the whole Karma thing. Karma isn't always instant...but it always is! Life is a journey...not a destination...enlightenment seems like a 'destination'. I don't want to be 'enlightened'...ignorance is bliss, eh?
And as the wise old King Solomon wrote: Knowledge increases sorrow. So, I'm not sure the 'enlightened' destination even exists.

I still concur with Hypers sig: To be....not to become...just To Be. I am. Dig it.

SHAFT!

Wachoosay?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tZzBrxj-Gjo

Coolthat!

You really have a choice. You can strive to do good, be good, and be the best you can be and that will determine where you will be. This is only the beginning. Have you lived before this? No. Will you live after this? Yes. Will you come back here? No. Just wishing to be gone from here will not take you from here. You have such a long long long way to go! I dont care who you think you are, after you leave here, you have a long long way to go! You as a little boy or girl are so tiny, so miniscule, so insignificant. Any offers made to you, the best thing to do is say, 'No thanks.' Because you have a long long long way to go!

is enlightenment something thats actually achievable? or is it just a good mentality about you're life and things that affect you and how you react to them?

I'm with you. Having my kids was the best thing I have ever done! (Even though they are both teenagers right now and driving me crazy. They are still great people and are my primary source of entertainment, heh.)

Also, my mother and I have a very strong bond--more so than she and my other sisters (which she has noticed, too). I sometimes believe we were together in another lifetime--maybe many lifetimes. We love strongly, we understand each other's faults and forgive them quickly. There's an old feeling to it--almost like it spans centuries. I think I may have been her mother at one time, too. It will be fun to find out for sure one day!

I think the very nature of the soul allows it to recognize other souls they have loved before (or just have known before). They may not have the same role, but they do connect spiritually as sharing a common experience. Why else would we plod through a lifetime if it wasn't to learn how to react lovingly toward each other and improve our relationships? Do we connect with new spirits? Sure. But I think we still keep our spirit family and help each other along the way on our journey to perfection. At least, I hope so!

That's why I named the thread the goal of enlightenment, instead of just "enlightenment". According the many buddhist and some gnostic christians, endless cycles of karma and reincarnations can end whenever the soul finds light. How much light needs to be found isn't exactly specified, so the soul found enough enlightenment whenever the reincarnations end. Ends when we end it, which would make "reincarnate? (y/n)" a question we must answer of our true will.

From what I've read, in Hinduism and Buddhism, if one wants to achieve enlightenment and becomes a monk, he/she just wanders off to the life of a monk, leaving business, family, wife, children...turning their backs on it all without any further concern to the welfare of those left behind. That's kind of like leaving this world to be in company of like-souls.

But I think in Zen, for instance, enlightenment must be achieved in this world. Enlightenment in this sense is beyond the realm of knowledge and experience...the end of knowledge. Onc can still live in this karma-filled world and participate in it, but one is free of attatchment to it. This is the kind of 'entering into paradise' or the ending of karma that I would be interested in.

As to the original question, I think the leaving of loved ones behind and in so doing abandoning one's moral responsibilities to them would in itself create bad karma and prevent one from leaving it all behind in the way you state.

Interesting question, but I haven't intepreted it that way. I believe the goal is not the ascend from earth but from the illusion of time and space. The earth exists in multiple dimensions. The only thing that enlightenment accomplishes is allowing one to ascend to higher dimensions of awareness. I came to this conclusion because many of the enlightened beings are said to have returned after ascension on their own violition at times.



Yes, I would although I don't believe that it happens this way. Enlightenment is a state of being. The goal of advanced yoga practices is to allow the mind to become fully aware of the illusion of reality. That is to say, you start to realize quantum physics throughout your entire being. it's one thing to know that you are the chair you are sitting in are made up of empty space and floating particles as is everything else. Quite another to KNOW it with body and mind in harmony.

If all things are really one thing, if matter is never lost, then there are no real good-byes in any case. Those people remain a part of you as they are a part of the entirety of creation. The only difference is that you see what creation truly is.

There are certainly tales of people abandoning all worldly responsibilities to follow enlightenment. Siddharta is a good example of this. I fellowship with Tibetian monks twice a week. There are many stories of people who have attained enlightenment that weren't monks and were going about their daily business. I was told by a visiting Geshe that my situation is an example of an accumulation of positive karma because I am a mother who must practice the six virtues daily when tending to my two small kids. Isolation would not provide me with the path I seek to walk.
What is taught is the skill of detachment: caring for others while at the same time not grasping at the self (ego) or them.

It is my understanding we will continue to reincarnate until we learn to love the human experience, which actually is enlightenment. For a spiritual being to birth themself into form, realize they are spiritual and gathering experience for their soul and the collective spirit of God, is to realize a degree of enlightenment. Just being all that we are in true joy is full enlightenment.

John

So are you saying that the goal of Gnostics and Buddhists can never be achieved?

It's not the destination, it's the journey.

ref r said, "It's not the destination, it's the journey". I think sometimes a problem with this is that people enjoy the journey so much that they never reach the destination. For instance, the teachings of the Buddha is supposed to be like a boat that carries you from one shore to the other. When you reach the far shore you then have no use for the boat. The boat ride is fun, but there comes a moment when one must realize that the ride must end and one must get serious about the reason you got on the boat in the first place.

It's like the student who stays and stays in school learning more and more but never leaves the school to go out and fulfill the the knowledge he has gained. I think enlightenment or what ever one wants to call it is a process of going through a phase of gaining knowledge about the subject and applying that knowledge within one's innermost being, and then at some point one realizes that that knowledge itself is a hinderance to further becoming.

Enlightenment is an end of knowledge, an end of learned experience. It is a realization and an expression of one's pure true self undefiled. Just my thoughts.

Nice