There are even cave drawings as well that date back thousands of years, not to mention that it was revealed that the Air Force told its cadets at the Air Force Academy that UFOs goes back 50,000 years, and that was written up in the Air Force's own science book, but when the public found out about it, the Air Force pulled the book off the shelf. Now, why would the Air Force tell its cadets to take UFOs seriously while trying to convince the public to do otherwise?

Eventually, the govenment is going to reveal what it knows about UFOs because too many people have been coming forward over the years and revealing what they know, and many of them are govenment personnel, including military and intelligence officials, and not just form the United States either, but from around the world.

Here's something that I find rather... peculiar. Whenever skyeagle comes into the room, and presents evidence that supports the argument against Jj's, why does he stop replying? I find that really weird.

And Eric, what do you know... it seems that, in this case, age does not mean a bit of difference. I share the same point of view as skyeagle, and he has had plenty of life experience. Funny, huh? I find it funny how you come in here, make small one or two-liners that debunk the whole subject, but provide little to no evidence.

"When I got older, I came to my senses, and became more rational" <--- Rational is merely a matter of opinion.

I have seen how Sky 'works' - There are now about 4 different times where I postd specific points and specific questions that he did one of two things:

A. Ignored the link because:
..... He really couldn't challenge it.
..... He just didn't bother.
.................> But he went ahead and posted something that had NOTHING to do w/the Link in question. Posted his "proof" which didn't even come close to the LINK.

B. Avoided a specific question.
I asked him a very specfic and focused question which took over 8 +/- posts of directly asking him the same thing over and over. He gave me every answer excpet to answer the specific question, until it became obvious I was not going to 'let it slide'. Then he had no choice to answer and the answer. It took to long and too much effort to get him to answer a question for which I even gave him the answer several times, but he went out of his way to avoid it.

He can never admit straight foward when he is wrong and/or when a question that he has to answer is not line w/his belief. He will do and did try to avoid answering it.

So why would I bother w/someone like this?? So I simply do not bother w/him any more. He is obviously free to post his 'retoric' - that's totally fine and w/in the except rules of UM. But also w/in the excepted rules, I'm free to ignore him.

I also have found it curious that he has not said word on past and prior threads. Yet when he becomes aware of my posts, as another UM-member pointed out, it's like he needs to 'stalk me'. Which is fine - but again I'm still free to ignore him.

He is also a 'classic' example of a "Believer" w/"Tunnel Vision" and is only looking for ONE ANSWER. It's also clear, that he is no closer to getting that answer then people were in 1950's. He is only asking, "One question."

And, just how many questions are you asking?

What did I say in the past about your "keywords?" Apparently, you have a very short memory.

One and only post to you now: No - I have no short memory - as I have stated, I ignore you.

PS: Please feel totally free to ignore me also. I welcome it and encourage it totally.

Are you implying that UFOs are only observed in airspace and not in outer space? I've posted links that show that UFOs have been observed in outer space yet you continue to imply otherwise. Hmmmm!!!

Zero G would let us go faster than the speed of light.

I challenged your "AirSpace" comment and you have yet to refute my response.



I want to focus on your "AirSpace" comment where you specifically stated that UFOs have not been observed in space, which is untrue and you knew it, so the question is, what is your hidden agenda? Should I do some "cut and paste" routines to make a point? You stated that:



Yet, official record have reported UFOs in outer space as noted in the following report. At what altitude were some of the objects observed?

You have posted inaccurate statements, which are proven as false, so you need to clarify your statements, if not for me, then for the other participants.

On the contrary, we are making progress. At least we got the military to finally acknowledge that people in 1947 saw something along the lines of "alien bodies," and the military has now admitted that no weather balloon was involved in the Roswell incident, and that after claiming for 47 years that a weather balloon was involved. In fact, we have now refuted ALL of the government's cover stories on the Roswell incident and only its initial report of a captured "flying disk" remains intact. Over the years, more and more government officials have been coming forward on UFO reality.

We now have the Disclosure Project and the COMETA Report and over recent years, governments around the globe have been releasing some of their UFO files and some of those government officials have stated that the UFOs are in fact, those of ET. The data evidence released over the last few decades prove beyond any doubt the UFOs are not conventional aircraft nor the result of natural phenomena.

The progress is moving right along.

Not to mention the fact that the government declared that they had recovered a flying disc, when several days later, it was suddenly discovered as being a "weather balloon". I'd like an explanation as to how somebody can confuse a flying disc with a weather balloon.

i think jj needs to also look at some of the other factors at play here...

either your ignoring certain parts of the phenominon that dont fit into your "Man Made" theorie or your just plain ignorant.
either way your no better then the die hard believers... just more arrogant.

im not saying this isnt all man made but your just being a smart ass like always

That's what I always found about Jj's beliefs. I find it funny how he considers his explanations to be the most "plausible", and when others present their opinions and beliefs on how they aren't man-made, Jj quickly shoots them down. It's almost as if he's saying "My opinion makes the most sense, so yours is nothing but a pile of garbage."

"Only one question is being asked by believers..." <--- How many questions are you asking, Jj? The only question that I see you asking is one, and those are the ones focused on the "extreme probability" that these crafts are being piloted by man.

Your thread(s) is/are biased... you fail to explore the possibility that some of these crafts are piloted by extraterrestrial entities.

The real problem is it's just more of the same. And things like this disclosure project are a farce. So often we hear of a new exciting "whatever" coming up, and it leads to nothing, so the UFO community clings to 50 year old first person accounts and rehashes the same old stuff, and promises new and exciting information. Then nothing. Just another money maker, series of lectures or another re-examination of Roswell by some supposed expert in the field. It's frustrating as hell. Add to that the amount of contradictions out there amongst supposed experts on the UFO phenomena, and it's just retarded to keep believing Sky's cut and paste reports of UFOs from 1939 or whatever. Frustrating. Inconclusive. Unsupportable. Anecdotal.

I find it unfathomable that we have the technology to launch a 10 foot long hunk of metal from a moving body going several hundred miles per hour, at another body moving several hundreds of miles per hour, from a distance of 10 miles, and hit the damn thing within 5 feet, yet we can't get a frigging picture of ONE obviously intelligently controlled spacecraft in our atmosphere after 60+ years. It's just beyond my comprehension. Add to that the fact that someone will start babbling about the "stealth" technology the alien fleet has been using for years, as if they have some inside info...and I just throw up my hands like so many others do.

I believe that photographs exist of ET craft, they just aren't distributed regularly on the Internet. I believe there are SOME genuine photos of ET craft on the web, however, a good portion of them are hoaxed.

And, another balloon cover story was found, this time in an FBI memo.


http://www.roswellproof.com/files/fbi.gif

How do you get a hold of these documents? I'd be interested in looking at them.

They can be downloaded from the websites of the FBI, the CIA, NSA, NICAP, and even CUFOS.

http://www.cufos.org/UFO_Documents.html

The Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) can be used to obtain declassified UFO files as well.

On the contrary, the Disclosure Project presented UFO cases that I was already familiar with. A former base of mine, Hill AFB, UT, was directly involved in one of the cases that was presented because Hill AFB had
a responsibility toward the SAC's Minuteman missiles. Also, data and communication tapes were revealed by a senior FAA official and presented by the Disclosure Project. That was in regards to the Japan
Airlines/UFO incident over Alaska in 1986. After that incident, an Air Force KC-135 and other commercial airliners encountered a similar gigantic saucer-shaped UFO that military and civilian crewmembers
had stated, was larger than aircraft carriers. The crew of the Japanese B-747 said the 'flying sauce was larger than two aircraft carriers. The UFOs were also tracked on ground-based radars of the Air Force and
that of the FAA.



The links are of factual incidents that are well-documented. I find that the UFO skeptics tend to dismiss important facts surrounding data and documentation in regards to UFOs.



Los Angeles. 1942






Official Air Force Gun Footage UFO Photo

If the BASIC questions would have been answered with lots of evidence backing it up; then the basic questions
wouldn't be asked anymore. A whole new world of basic questions would be created until they, were answered.

Thanks for the link.

You're welcome! Here's an example that was taken from the website of the National Security Agency.

http://www.nsa.gov/ufo/ufo00017.pdf

True, the believers words are always the same. "I saw a UFO","The government knows about the aliens and are holding back on us',"I've been probe in my butt"! I agree. They are not asking the right questions to get the aswers they seek. But I ask you, what are the right aswers to ask. Where do you begin?

Ok, I’m going to start w/some questions and want you to observe exactly how some believers will get emotional about this, not to mention try to debunk. Notice they will not except the questions as valid or the right ones to start asking.

ROSEWELL, N.M.
Question and Observation:
W/the growing amount of evidence that shows Germany during WWII, was working on Fly Saucers.
W/the clear understanding that THEN, if it was stated:
GERMAN FLYING SAUCERS CRASHES ON US SOIL – would not have gone over really well. It would have likely created no small panic.
Well with WWII gone and done with. With the evidence that they were working on these and that they did have a base in South America to build these. That Japan and Hitler were working together to build these. Was the Rosewell, N.M. UFO a German Prototype?
(Obviously have the maps and documents that are available there and presented.)

That would be a great start. Can other’s now think of a few ‘new and/or different questions’ to ask?

There were no German saucer flight test at White Sands, New Mexico, and besides, secret flight test were carried out at Muroc AFB, California.

http://www.nuforc.org/Muroc.html

The fact that we failed to produce a practical saucer-shaped aircraft after all of these years is clear evidence that the flying saucers observed by scientist and engineers at White Sands, New Mexico and in Minnesota back in the 1940s, had nothing to do with projects of the military. And, I never saw any captured saucer-shaped German aircraft in those warehouses in Maryland either. I saw captured German and other enemy aircraft, but no electromagnetic-powered Gerrman flying saucers, and I saw no captured German saucers at White Sands either.

This was obviously not a German saucer.

What about the 'Bellonzo-Schriever-Miethe Disc'

The craft was designed to carry a crew of three The "Schriever-Habermohl" flying disc developed between 1943 and 1945 consisted of a stable dome-shaped cabin surrounded by a flat, rotating rim. Toward the end of the war, all the models and prototypes were reported destroyed before they could be found by the Soviets. According to postwar U.S. intelligence reports, however, the Russian army succeeded in capturing one prototype. After the war, both Schriever and Miethe, another German scientist involved in the design of flying disks, came to work for the US under "Operation Paperclip". Habermohl was reported, by U.S. Army Military Intelligence, as having been taken to the Soviet Union.


The first non-official report on the development of this craft is to be found in Die Deutschen Waffen und Geheimwaffen des 2 Weltkriegs und ihre Weiterentwicklung (Germany's Weapons and Secret Weapons of the Second World War and their Later Development)., J.F. Lehmanns Verlag, Munich, 1956. The author of this detailed and technical work on German wartime weaponry was Major d. Rudolph lusar, an engineer who worked in the German Reichs-Patent Office and had access to many original plans and documents. Lusar devoted a section of the chapter entitled "Special Devices," to Third Reich saucer designs.

Not even that.

We've tried and failed in producing practical saucer-shaped aircraft and that is why are still flying around in conventional aircraft using conventional propulsion systems in the military today. The B-2 is of an unconventional design, which is a boomerang-shaped aircraft but the design is not saucer-shaped nor is it new. Flying Wings were flying back in the 1940s and the B-2 has the exact wingspan dimension as the YB-49. We even tried to produce an aircraft with saucer-shaped wings. The problem with saucer-shape aircraft is that they are very unstable and the center-of-gravity tends to shift in a dangerous manner. There are ways to make them stable but it is not really cost-effective at this time.

Another fact that cannot be overlooked is that UFOs do not create sonic booms. For them, the problem has been solved, but for us, we are still trying to solve the problem of sonic booms and until we do so, FAA regulatons governing supersonic flight over the United States are going to remain in place. Also, the UFOs are not secret aircraft either because there are places where such flight test are conducted and the UFO case files I have examined are not indicative of the way we conduct flight test with our secret assets. There are Special-Use Airspaces (SUA) set aside for such test operations and Wasington D.C. is not one of them yet UFOs have violated airspaces over our nation's capital from time to time and there is nothing we can do about it. We have scrambled jets but the UFOs always outran our aircraft.

Sky - as I stated before and I'll state it again.

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between "Public Domain" photos and de-classified information.
** Yes these are the things that didn't work. **
We are not told about is what DID/IS working!
These are the questions that we should be trying to ask. But see, you resist this. If it's 'public domain' some how you think - this is the "all in all" proof of Top Secrets. Dude, wake up and get a life. I live in a world of Top Secrets - some even government. Public domain is NOT the only world of technology going on. There are a lot of people that put 'failed' out there on purpose. Not because it did fail, but to get focused groups 'off their backs' and to get them to look some where elsel. This is a very common stratagy. Very common.

I would submit the strong possiblity - What >IF< the above is nothing more than dis-information to show failure, when actually the 'not seen' isn't actually failed but working? This could very well be a strong possiblity. Also it is well documented, Germany didn't have their 'eggs all in one basket'. Rocket technology was only ONE technology they were working on - but not the only one.

Again as I have stated before: Read the book: "The Hunt For Zero Point" - by Nick Cook. Then do NOT take his "word for it", I didn't. Check out his sited material and see if it "checks out", I did. Then tell me what you think. Until then, you are living in a world of what "is made public". That is not the only world at play dude.

Why do I think you'll not read the book? Because it might educate you into another world of reality. I think you actually fear this. It doesn't 'fit into the truth you need/want to hear'.

Jj, let me guess - you're one of those people who thinks that Roswell recovered a German craft? While you're trying to debunk the whole "UFOs being piloted by ET", you never seem to mention (ever) the Roswell incident.

We will never know what really happend at Roswell. I am 50/50 on it.

We know nothing, except for the fact that Roswell recovered a flying disc.

There is no SOLID proof of that. Just eye witness reports. Pop out the saucer and I will believe. HARD proof is what is need to prover ET's. Not speculation.

There's no proof, except for the government themselves declaring that they had recovered a flying disc several days before stating that they had recovered a weather balloon. It was in the news paper...

And changed their mind when they were realized they were wrong. Don't try so hard.

I never knew that the government made official statements through newspapers?

Well, you learn something new every day!

I'm sorry... I didn't know it was so easy to mistake wreckage from a flying saucer to a weather balloon.

Perhaps it was back then. You weren't there and will never know absolutely. You can hope but never know for sure.

We're talking about a newspaper article!

Chances are they lied outright, or were otherwise fed false information.

Wow - I really wish kids today would learn to read and be even slightly learn to see what they are reading!

Umm, AB - go up to Post #76. I addressed the Rosewell. I have even addressed it in past posts. That this likely hood of it being a German Craft flying to Japan via the German's Base in South America is not to hard to see. Is it "fact"? No. Could it be, yes. Why, why not? The evidence is there and much much stronger than the evidence for it being ET.

Back in the time of the Rosewell crash it would not have gone over well if it was stated, "German Aircraft crashed on US soil." This would so not have been good on so many different levels. Am I saying this is "fact" that it was indeed a German Craft? No, I'm saying the evidence suggests a very strong possiblity of it being that. But since the believers will not even consider the possiblity - they only prove they have tunnel vision.

But unless we are willing to look at other possible theories and not just "it had/has to be et-alien", then one is PURE TUNNEL VISIONED, in that one is looking for only ONE ANSWER. A lot of 'believeres' have been on that Tunnel Visioned Answer. In 70+ years, that Tunnel Vision has moved them very little forward w/any answers, only more and more questions.

I had a prof in college that presented this simple truth. "If asking the same question only creates more and more questions and no answers. Stop to think, you might be asking the wrong question." There is a lot of truth in that, a whole lot of truth.

Many pilots seen these strange crafts over Germany. However, as soon as a crafts were built, Hitler ordered it disassembled and shipped somewhere -- probably Antarctica. None of the craft were captured by the Allies, although some of the scientists were captured and then mostly disappeared, but can somewhat be traced to Bell Textron and to places such as Area 51, which, surprise!, is infamous for its 'UFO' sightings.

"NEW YORK TIMES," December 14, 1944: "Floating Mystery Ball Is New German Weapon. SUPREME HEADQUARTERS, Allied Expeditionary Force, Dec. 13 -- A new German weapon has made its appearance on the western air front, it was disclosed today. "Airmen of the American Air Force report that they are encountering silver colored spheres in the air over German territory. The spheres are encountered either singly or in clusters. Sometimes they are semi-translucent." ...and, "SUPREME HEADQUARTERS Dec. 13 [Reuters] -- The Germans have produced a 'secret' weapon in keeping with the Christmas season. "The new device, apparently an air defense weapon, resembles the huge glass balls that adorn Christmas trees.

I'm pretty sure all of these people were not hellucinating and, I don't see any reason why they would lie about what was going on around these times.

Sure we tried to produce flying saucers and failed, but the fact remains, we still don't have any saucer-shaped bombers nor fighters or even commercial aircraft flying today that exhibit the capabilities the real UFOs are known for, and, we still haven't solved the riddle of sonic booms and that is why the FAA regulations still govern supersonic flights over the United States and those are important clues that the UFOs we have been encountering are not ours, especially when considering the way we conduct secret flight test vs. what we have encountered and where these encounters have taken place. We don't fly secret aircraft in formation with a scheduled airliner in positive controlled airspace without permission from ground controllers nor even in terminal and other airport airspaces in broad daylight and that is how you can determine that the UFOs are not those of the military.

We don't fly secret aircraft within airport control zones in full violation of FAA regulations in the United States nor do we do so in over 100 foreign nations where UFOs have been documented as well. There are places where we conduct secret flight test and none of the UFO case files in question involved any secret aircraft of the military.



I have not only lived in a world of military secrets, (I have been part of a military cover-up bvefore) but I have also been involved in military operations to know what is, and what isn't, and some of my products I'd developed for the USAF are still flying around in aircraft of the Air Force.



It was well-known and no secret, that we have had problems with saucer-shaped vehicles before due to the shifting 'center-of-gravity' problems. That is why the experimental "Flying Flapject" had stabilizers. If you lose those stabilzers in flight, the plane is going to crash.



If we were successful in developing saucer-shaped aircraft, we would have long been flyng large saucer-shaped fighters and bombers a long time ago but as you can see everyday, we are still flying around in conventional-looking aircraft with the exception of the B-2 bomber, which isn't saucer-shaped either, but a spinoff of an old design that date back to the 1940s, and the aircraft we are using today and those of the future, are using, or will be using conventional propulsion systems and until we solve the problem of the sonic boom, they will be prohibited from flying supersonic flights over the United States without permission. That is an important clue that the UFOs flying around at 9000+ mph over the United States and elsewhere around the world, are not ours.



If the Germans had such an advanced technology that was successful and available at the time, they would have used their 'flying saucer' assets to save Germany, which goes to show their experiments were not as successful as many are led to believe. After the war, German scientist were sent to the United States where they developed conventional rockets, so what does that tell you? We didn't send men to the moon in a 'flying saucer,' the Saturn V rockets were used to send astronauts to the moon. Years later, we developed the space shuttle and it is not saucer-shaped either nor is it powered by an electtomagnetic propulsion system.



I already know what that reality is, I already have been a part of it. I will check it out, but let's look at it this way, if we had it, the military would be using it. As of today, the latest in futuristic aircraft on the drawing boards are still slated to use conventional propulsion systems and they still won't have the capability of real UFOs of the kind we saw back in 1952.

We definitely know that it wasn't a balloon.

Senior military officials and others have stated for the record that what they had recovered was a flying disk and not a balloon of any kind. Even Congressman Steven Schiff, {R.NM) concurred that no balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident and He confirmed the government Roswell cover-up as well and His message was printed in the Washington Post.

Ok, Sky - A B and other 'hard core believers'.

I'm going to love the answer to this question:

Who do you guys rationalize that the governements are lying to us about the existance of ET/Aliens and such to extreme measures of lies. But yet you believe they are not lying about Top Secret Crafts? How do you rantionalize they are telling you the truth here?

There were no secret German flying saucers at Roswell AAF. Better check the mission of Muroc AFB first.

The US might have stopped trying to make these disks because they couldn't figure out how the propulsion system worked! Personaly, I think the avro-car and the flapjack were just examples of them trying to figure out how to make them work.

There would be no use for these odd looking crafts unless they were trying to copy something that they had found ecspecially knowing that the current aircrafts worked fine.

apparently they changed their minds after they told the world it was a flyign saucer. so they said it was a weather balloon to draw attention away from it and what people had heard.
many witnesses have said they were threatened to talk about what they had seen or heard, and that they could pay the consequences of galivanting around saying it was a real flying saucer that crashed.

This is all hearsay from decades ago. Totally unreliable. I think alot of people made up stories to make themselves look important. ONCE again. unless you were there then all you have is heresay. Nothing more. Thats no difference then believing in god. I have said this many times: ufo's & et's have replaced god for many people. They have something in common. Faith.

It is very obvious that the government lies to us about UFOs and other things ( I was once part of a military cover-up) and Roswell is a clear example of a government cover-up. After all, the government claimed for 47 years that a weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident and then in 1994, it admitted that no weather balloon was involved after all. It then implied that a Project Mogul balloon train #4 was reponsible for the Roswell incident but it has been shown that no such flight took place, and that, according to NYU's own Mogul balloon flight records and the records of A.P. Crary. In 1997, the government claimed that alien bodies people saw in 1947, were test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s, with the latest accident happening in 1959, twelve years after the fact. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the government has been lying to us all along on the Roswell incident and on other UFO incidents.

In 1952, the goverment lied to us again when it claimed that the UFOs over Washington D.C. were the result of temperature inversions and then it initially denied it sent fighters to intercept the UFOs but when reporters found that fighters were in fact scrambled, then the government admitted that aircraft were scrambled.

It is clearly obvious the gtovernment is lying.