If you don't mind, would you care to elaborate, or share your experience(s) with us?

Peace.

A seeker who truly lets God in (with no holds barred, totally accepts whatever God throws at him or her, and no bartering involved) is quite commendable in my book.

God speed.

A lot of our actions proceed from what be believe we are, believe to be moral etc. Wouldn't it be fair to say that if we are unhappy in life or causing destruction to our fellow neighbours then the source could be from a negative belief system that is shaping our actions/reality?


Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is. ---Bhagavad Gita

Belief is not only a justification but an influence upon our actions.

God is the Shephard of my life. My life is dedicated to Him. I agree with you.....though to totally match each of those is impossible. However, I strive and give God my all.....I can only hope it is acceptable. I know it is because He is merciful.....but in reality we can never make it up. Seek the guidlines which u set, for they r the path to righteousness.



Yes, please do elaborate.

right...
your logic doesn't hold.
1. there are many religious people that aren't ignorant.
2. maybe, but some religions are difficult to follow, and people that follow them might get bashed all the time. for instance, if some christian says something, people throw at him arguments about inquisition, and crusades. also, as much as i understand, some pagans and satanist get hard time out in real life, (but also on internet), and i think that almost every religion have their natural enemies. what's the point of this speech? well,if people made/followed religions because of ego, then why would they subject themselves to possible violence from other religions?
3. we don't *know* does god require faith of us. we can't predict will rain fall next week, but we try to predict natures of some of most powerful beings in the universe (if they exist)

BRRRILLIANT!!!

i LOVE that BG quote you gave me, thanks Brave, it communicates its message so simply and i do not disagree with it, but my original statement still holds...Belief and Faith are meaningless in the eyes of God etc. When something is self evident, belief surely is simply a word to communicate what you in yourself "are" to others, because others see themselves as a seperate "are" and so by comparison to you, an "are not" dualism .

Actually, that BG quote is a beautiful example. When you look at the statement from the view of belief simply as a word (linguistically speaking) that serves to validate the subject of its reference, it isnt really trying to put forward a message about belief but about the limitlessness of being, "so he is", which paves the way for realisation. People who live their lives fixed to the bindings of duality can not comprehend this and anything man can not comprehend he deems as "disproven" or impossible, so "belief" in this case is used as a tool to communicate the limitlessness of self without alienating the audiance....But if the purpose was a guide to self realisation or "enlightenment" then once one recognises God then belief or faith serve no purpose for God is self evident. It is then only required as a linguistic tool to communicate this to others who remain in duality.

My beef is that many internalise what they believe, not as the dualistic tool of communication which it is, but as the actuality of the subject to which they refer it. In this manner it is internalised as a "belief in" rather than the actual subject itself, and whilst being a guide it can also be a limitation or veil upon the actual subject of its reference... reality

"I believe"...where is the reality in that statement, in what it presents or where it comes from? ....and if so, why place reality into the binds of the dualistic certainty* of belief...it maybe a guide for some but also a bind for many others... Some people spend their whole lives being guided as though the source of their belief is a destination, or something to be get...duality, agAIN!

When i wrote that (There is no action in Belief or Faith, they are simply a justification for thoughts.) i was thinking in the context of that Ramana quote you gave me.....Everything is predetermined. But one is always free not to identify oneself with the body and not to be affected by the pleasure and pain associated with its activities.

When he says "with the body" he is refering to all thought, justifications influence, it could even be said that influence is nearly always the ego and desire and perhaps this is where belief can only take you so far. It is forged by a desire for the subject of belief to be truth. It serves a purpose for sure, but as BG also states desire can only lead to sorrow, the poisened apple. Identifying with the source rather than the percieved does not require belief for it is self evident therefore...

HA HAAA, I've TOTALLY Moydered ... NICE ONE!
nn23


*and therefore uncertainty

Also mentioned in the OT: "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he," (Proverbs 23:7) and contains the key to understanding.






Woman...it's so good to have you back. Your were sorely missed. Loved this post.

Such bravery and ardor!!! Thank you, it sure gives one hope... And no doubt, God will take you on a wonderful journey, especially since you asked for it.

Listen, and listen well children to this pilgrim's quest!

Please keep us up to date with your spiritual adventures.

Peace.

Ni Hao Not understand why make one people self slave to one of Christmans god is brave. All sound ma ma hu hu huli hutu..not sound good for peoples. Just chineseman idea. tsai chien

Did I write, "Christmas," or did I read you wrong??? At any rate, I ain't goin' dat road.

tuei pu chi but english no good. I say Christ mans - people believe Christ man. tsai chien

DLV, this reply was truely an earnest and sincere peice of writing, it was a pleasure to read.

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HA HAAA, good one, exACTLY!!! From your perspective it can be what i believe, and the duality of this is what i understand you to believe in, for it is just a tool for communication. All percieved fact or truth is just a subjective experience but not the reality.

The map is not the territory ~ Alfred Korzybski

So the word belief has little meaning to those who do not believe and the meaning it serves for the person using the word is a matter of validation which is irrelevant when something really IS true, which therefore means that that which they apply it to is just the reflection but not the source.

If someone slapped me in the face yesterday, they did not slap me in the face today, my mind holds an incorporial thought or reflection that someone slapped me in the face yesterday. But this slap no longer exists today, so it requires belief. When it actually happens belief is not required for it is.

There is no Truth. There is only the truth within each moment ~ Ramana Maharshi

What need is there with trust when you are experiencing? .......and why must this experience stop?* Perhaps it is because people cling too closely to their belief in the experience (perceptions/thoughts... of yesterday) which is triggered and perpetuated by their desire for more, they miss the experience happening within the moment which requires no trust or belief for it is.

*"curiosity of this experience" implying reflection of past event.

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yeah, I get what your saying man Yeah right, thats a good argument nice one, again, its meaning is only that which the subject desires to project to the audiance. Belief is not about the subject to which it refers but the desire of the experiencer to project their understanding. If they believed what they understand then they would not need to say they did because they have faith that it is true.

On the argument of using it as a tool to communicate to others that they are open minded enough not to state what they understand of their experience as the experience itself which would be inaccurate, to gain validation of their point, why do they bind themselves to their understanding of it (belief) in the first place when they are aware that it is not the experience itself/reality?

Memory never recaptures reality. Memory reconstructs. All reconstructions change the original, becoming external frames of reference that inevitably fall short.
Mentat Handbook
Heretics of Dune

That which we believe can never be reality.

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Its been a few years...BAH! go on then!
Thanks man, thats sweet

...hmmm, well, if ya wanna play that game

I double dare you to ask your self who it is that believes in God?

I tripple dare you to then ask your self....What is the ultimate source of my answer?

I quadruple dare you to then ask your self....Who am i?

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yeah, the full statement was..."belief and faith are meaningless....in the eyes of God etc"


yeahhh...

We express what we believe to be so, to validate our perceptions in the face of disreguard, and perhaps in turn this politely disreguards the beliefs of others. But if we believe our beliefs, why do we need to validate our understandings and learning by using the word? ...communication....Why do we communicate?....As a means to engage all our desires whether they be altruistic or selfish, so belief is spawned by a desire.



WOW cheers for all your posts guys...LOVE IIIIT!!!

NICE ONE!
nn23

Wow what a post. I the level of comprehension you are on. Glad to see you've searched through the dune quote site. You are so beautiful. I love the way your mind works. You really slap people in the face with your outright over-ruling logic.

I get all giddy when I read posts from people like you because it helps shape things I already know but couldn't clarify in an articulate matter. You understand that all reality is imagination and that people are caught in the illuson of believing that one set of imagination pattern (scientific observable world) is more real than the other patterns of imagination i.e dream state, daydream state etc....

They are all as real as each other and those who say one is actually more real only say so because they believe via conditioning to be so.

Most people can't to terms with this and so find it even harder to comprehend the reality behind the painting of thoughts you are trying to indicate.

Your intellect isn't too sharp and so you havnt cut up your perception of reality into too many separate things......it is a blessing beause you havnt made your intuition bleed for the sake of academia.

I recognize you as a free mind and I havnt come across many on unexplained mysteries. Im so glad you are back.

On another note I found this quote in one of Frank Herbert's books. You wont find it on that site. It speaks a profound truth about the true purpose of religion which I know you and maybe six others on unexplained mysteries will understand. Anyway here it is.:

'Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to themselves, " I am not the kind of person I want to be." It must never sink into an assemblage of the self-satisfied.'

--- Touro Bomoko's dying words

I agree with you.



Very well said. I know where you are coming from one hundred percent. However this state beyond duality even though is the real state of all things is very difficult to attain (I know you cant attain it because there is nothing to attain because it is eternally what it is), take this quote from Sri RamaKrishna (Allah bless him):

As long as the I-sense lasts, so long are true knowledge (jnana) and liberation (mukti) impossible. How very few can obtain this union (samadhi) and free themselves from this 'I'? It is very possible. Talk as much as you want, isolate yourself continuously, still this 'I' will always return to you. Cut down the poplar tree today, and you will find tomorrow it forms new shoots. When you ultimately find that this 'I' cannot be destroyed, let it remain as 'I' the servant.

Hence I pray to a personal God even though I know God transcends all forms. I still agree with you though but do you know where Im coming from? Me mastering philosophic concepts has not gained me liberation (as you already know). Here is a quote from Kahlil Gibran to show you what I mean:

We are all prisoners , but some of us are in cells with windows and some without.

You definately have a window

Yet at the same time this quote contradicts because what you and me try and indicate to others is our nature which is at all times eternal and infinity. We both know that to ask the very question "How did the infinite become finite" is a contradiction to the infinite:

..To ask this question we have to suppose that the Absolute also is bound by something, that it is dependent on something. Thus we see that the very question as to why the Infinite became the finite is an absurd one, for it is self-contradictory. (Vivekananda, Collinson, Plant and Wilkinson, 2000. p143)

Hence we get into an intellectual paradox which we must believe in until we are free from the intellectual paradox we know to be true and experience it as it is, which isnt a paradox because it is Truth itself.

Most discipline is hidden discipline, designed not to liberate but to limit. Do not ask "Why?" Be cautious with "How?" "Why?" leads inexorably to paradox. "How?" traps you in a universe of cause and effect. Both deny the infinite.

The Apocrypha of Arrakis

I love you



Ya. I know



So so much easier said than done.......but you articulate your points so well that I am surprised more people cant understand the concept of what you are explaining (the concept that Truth lies beyond concept that is).



Our beliefs/desires from the conscious and unconscious heavily influence what we do.........what many dont understand is that our beliefs/desires create justifications (holy or unholy) to perpetuate their existence. We can with our illusory free will break this bond at any time.

Hahahahaha we create/assimilate beliefs to maintain our beliefs!



We express ourselves on forums like unexplained mysteries.



Your chatter is stimulating.

Had to change some grammar errors

I love this quote.

Nn23, as to ur coment:
" Thanks man, thats sweet

...hmmm, well, if ya wanna play that game

I double dare you to ask your self who it is that believes in God?

I tripple dare you to then ask your self....What is the ultimate source of my answer?

I quadruple dare you to then ask your self....Who am i?"

I'm not sure of the point ur trying to make. These all seem like senseless questions. Instead of questioning and avoiding my statement, why don't u accept the challenge. Maybe it's because ur to afraid that the results will destroy your own fabricated world of supposedly intellectual bliss! You only prove your point by running circles....no destination is ever reached. You confront any argument with complicated messes of question and statement which are trully meaningless. As to my previous responses, I do believe i have failed to fully answer your initial comment. U didn't just say that belief and faith don't matter, but that they don't matter to God (and many others, but I only confront this one), when, if only you were to know Him and possibly the words which describe Him and guide those who kno the TRUTH of Him, u would discover that to God it's these two key elements that define everything: you immediate life and your after life. For without Belief and Faith in Him and His Son's gift of salvation (which by these are excepted), your eternity only exists for torment and agony in Hell (if i may be so bold). You keep referencing that belief and faith cannot be based upon truth, reality, and experience which is an illegitamate argument. Furthermore, i finish in saying that my experice doesn't stop.....it continues on in each moment of my life. Maybe your interpretation comes from not having found this?

If you know God exists then why do you need to believe it or have faith?

"The word "belief" is a difficult thing for me. I don't believe. I must have a reason for a certain hypothesis. Either I know a thing, and then I know it - I don't need to believe it."

---Carl Jung

mATE! yer gona give me a Kundalini

But seriously, you should know that i get the same buzz off you mate.

I actually feel thankful to have found people, yourself SPECIFICALLY included who i can connect my thoughts with, thats what it feels like for me. You have written many posts that have rocked my world dude.

That quote is WICKED man cheers, self satisfaction would be religions downfall, how ironic....That "religion has eaten many a society from within" quote from Dune ( not the exact wording btw but you know the one ) follows on nicely dun it

Didnt say none of my nice sh*t to "repay" for yours btw, i mean it.

Believing is more of delving into what u know, not questioning it or standing on an uncertain principle. Faith is more of a relational basis with God....it's u and Him. It is also more meant as trust....the two biblically speaking are interchangeable.

Then you dont believe it but know it. To say I believe is to say "I think though I could be wrong that...." if you know it you say "I know....."



Faith is what we have until we experience what it is we had faith in. From that point it isn't faith but knowledge you know to be true.

Definition of believe: "to have confidence or faith in the truth of (a positive assertion, story, etc.); give credence to." In other words, KNOW. It's in the dictionary. Also from a BIBLICAL definition using the definitions of the original Greek and Hebrew : "aman -To be firm, endure, be true, stand fast, trust." Also point to KNOW and LIVE OUT, not place on something unsure.


Definition of faith: "confidence or trust in a person or thing" - also not of question. Biblical def.: "emunah - certainty" Also, take into context within it's scriptural basis and u will see my prvious points

To have confidence or give credence to isnt to know. I may have faith and confidence that a theory may be true but that doesnt mean I know.



Main Entry: know
Part of Speech: verb 1
Definition: understand
Synonyms: apperceive, appreciate, apprehend, be acquainted, be cognizant, be informed, be learned, be read, be schooled, be versed, cognize, comprehend, differentiate, discern, discriminate, distinguish, experience, fathom, feel certain, grasp, have, have information, ken, learn, notice, perceive, prize, realize, recognize, see, undergo

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/know

Where is belief or faith in this list?




Having confidence doesnt mean to know. To know doesnt require confidence because you know.Also trust isnt to know either, trust is to take a risk out of confidence. If you know then you didnt trust because you knew in the first place there was no risk.

Main Entry: know
Part of Speech: verb 1
Definition: understand
Synonyms: apperceive, appreciate, apprehend, be acquainted, be cognizant, be informed, be learned, be read, be schooled, be versed, cognize, comprehend, differentiate, discern, discriminate, distinguish, experience, fathom, feel certain, grasp, have, have information, ken, learn, notice, perceive, prize, realize, recognize, see, undergo


Even this list contradicts what I am saying. To know isnt to 'feel certain' either. When you know you know. Language is so subtle.

I have to say, that is a nice counter. I'm kinda enjoying this. but, I believe you did miss one part in the def. of belief: "aman -To be firm, endure, be true, stand fast, trust

i will continue to search for my support. Nice Job

Also to say that the definition of certainty is "something certain; an assured fact" - the very things knowlege are based upon, no?

No it was a terrible counter. I contradicted myself with the thesaurus part. But I plan to make up for it with a dictionary definition:

be·lieve /bɪˈliv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bi-leev] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -lieved, -liev·ing.
–verb (used without object) 1. to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so: Only if one believes in something can one act purposefully.

–verb (used with object) 2. to have confidence or faith in the truth of (a positive assertion, story, etc.); give credence to.

3. to have confidence in the assertions of (a person).

4. to have a conviction that (a person or thing) is, has been, or will be engaged in a given action or involved in a given situation: The fugitive is believed to be headed for the Mexican border.

5. to suppose or assume; understand (usually fol. by a noun clause): I believe that he has left town.

—Verb phrase6. believe in, a. to be persuaded of the truth or existence of: to believe in Zoroastrianism; to believe in ghosts.
b. to have faith in the reliability, honesty, benevolence, etc., of: I can help only if you believe in me.

—Idiom7. make believe. make (def. 46).
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/believe


be·lief /bɪˈlif/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bi-leef] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief


To believe isnt to know. Nowhere do these definitions indicate that "believe" or "belief" means to know other than an opinion of something which one thinks to be true. Opinions can never be truth for the very reason that it is an opinion.




To believe isnt to know.




You wrote this:

Definition of believe: "to have confidence or faith in the truth of (a positive assertion, story, etc.); give credence to." In other words, KNOW. It's in the dictionary. Also from a BIBLICAL definition using the definitions of the original Greek and Hebrew : "aman -To be firm, endure, be true, stand fast, trust." Also point to KNOW and LIVE OUT, not place on something unsure.

How can "be true" and "trust" come from the same word? Please give me the link from where you got this informatm from. For something to "be true" can be known and therefore no faith/trust is required.

You cannot always go byt the first definition in the dictionary. I cannot provide you with a link as this came from Vine's Concise dictionary of the Bible. It uses the definitions of the original Greek and Hebrew (as i mentioned earlier) used in the manuscripts of the Bible. I did provide you with the original word "aman". You may try looking it up on your own, if u wish. Maybe your understanding of trusting, truth, and knowing are not accurate? After all, Webster can not always define the meaning of times.

I agree. I meant for all definitions to be viewed.




Amen
The root of the word comes from Hebrew aman, which means to nourish and make strong. Emunah (faithfulness) also comes from aman. The ancient Greeks used the word (AMHN) from Hebrew to mean 'truth', 'surely', 'absolutely'. It is one of just a few Hebrew words which have been imported unchanged into Church liturgy. The current meaning of Amen and its pronunciation is pretty much the same in any modern language and religion.

http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/amen.html

So the meaning of aman is different for the hebrews than from what the greeks (who got it from the hebrews) used it for. Truth, surely and absolutely dont come under "believe" in english if we refer to the greek meaning and the word aman. However if we refer to the hebrew meaning of the word then it means to make strong, nourish ,To be firm, endure, believe etc

We cannot mix up the definitions in english because then it would be a contradiction made on the basis of lack of language discrimination.

So from this perspective we are right to say that in english to believe isnt to know. And that the word aman has a completely different meaning for the greeks and hebrews.

This is very nice research and i must give u credit. However, as i mentioned, the word used is not "amen," although this is used for other things. By aman, amhn is meant (aman is the english translation adding in vowels to create a word, kinda like YHWH which in english is Jehova). This is the word used when translating believe.....english seems to have done an injustice to this word. Emunah does come from this, but it is AMHN which it is derived from, which is aman.

I'll research this.

Thanx. I have my share of research to do as well. I admire our conversation, as we may both learn something out of this. Thank you for your patience and diligence. God bless, whether believed or not.

Hebrew - aman

Strong's - Hebrew 539 (see also Hebrew 529; Hebrew 530; Hebrew 571; Greek 4100; Greek 4102)

KJV - believe, assurance, believe, bring up, establish, be faithful (of long continuance, steadfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurse, trust, stability, turn to the right. [Note: The word "belief" is not used in the KJV Old Testament.]

NRSV - believe, nurse, guardians of the children, faithfulness, stability, established, honestly, truth, what is right, faithfully, trustworthy

BDB (page 52,53) - confirm, support. {Qal} 1. as verb: support, nourish. 2. as substantive: foster-father. 3. foster-mother, nurse... {Niph.} 1. carried by a nurse. 2. made firm, sure, lasting. 3. confirmed, established, sure. 4. verified, confirmed. 5. reliable, faithful, trusty. {Hiph.} 1. stand firm. 2. trust, believe

Online Hebrew dictionary definition - click here

S&H references

S&H 488:7 The Hebrew and Greek words often translated belief differ somewhat in meaning from that conveyed by the English verb believe; they have more the significance of faith, understanding, trust, constancy, firmness. Hence the Scriptures often appear in our common version to approve and endorse belief, when they mean to enforce the necessity of understanding.

http://www.bibletexts.com/sh/hg/h0539.htm

See I only know english. In english the word believe doesnt mean to know. Hence I am still in the right to say that believe isnt to know by english standards.

Though the origin of the word believe was in hebrew and greek the meaning is different in english. It is by this english meaning of the word in which I refer to 'believe'.

Believe in english has a different meaning to 'know'. Hence to know and believe are not synonyms in english.

Bravo!! I applaude you. I wondered as to how long it would take for someone to catch this. The bible was not written in english, however. So maybe i am arguing the wrong point? Maybe "believe" as stated in english is meaningless, but the "believing" which i do is not the believing being spoken of here. Though this chat was delightful, a few posts back and you will see that i cahnged tactics, as i was arguing the wrong point all along. In fact, I believe it was this point you replied upon. The question was not as to whether the two are meaningless to us, but as to whether they were meaningful in the eyes of something higher (which I believe to be God). My argument changed from the meaning of the words to the requisite God made of His people which were these, making them important to Him.

Then in english you shouldnt be using the word "believing" for its meaning isnt to know. You be saying "I know" because to say in english that these two words mean the same thing is out right wrong.



I liked it.



Believing is different to knowing (in english anyway). Do you think God wants us to know that He exists or do you think (hold opinion/believe) that He wants us to believe in Him (that is of course to think/hold opinion He exists)?????????

Truthfully, He calls us to do both. I will look up the scripture on it (if u don't mind, as i don't have all references memerized, lol). Yes, we are to know He is God, but before we can know, we must believe even if just for a split second, and Believe in His word, no? As to faith.....like i said it's more relational than mental. Faith is living it out....walking in Him.

WOW that really is a wonderful quote, "I" the servant servant of God, everything predetermined LOVE IT!



don't we all? ...haha ha, ahhh yeh, just read below

Perhaps this is the choice which Ramana speaks of.

he he

yeah..he he
LMAO BRRRILLIANT, LOVE IIIIT!

here you go (although you gave it me first)

We create our own future by our own beliefs, which control our actions. A strong enough belief system, a sufficiently powerful conviction, can make anything happen. This is how we create our consensus reality, including our gods.
Reverend Mother Ramallo, Sayyadina of the Fremen
Dune: House Harkonnen

(consensus reality contradiction of terms for agreement stagnates the reflection of past events clouding reality….belief creates illusion.) as you know.

I love the way self expresses you.

Cheers man, i reciprocate.

Therefore if we have to believe even if it is for a split second in His word then for that splity second we dont actually know whether His word is His because we dont know and going based on belief. If we dont know that it is His word then how can we know it is true? Therefore much much questioning and philosophizing must be had before we can consider its validity and even then we wont be going by knowing but by opinion because questioning and philosophizing dont count for direct experience. It could very well point us in a different direction. However it can only be validated as "truth" if it is experienced directly because then we will no longer have to go by belief but by direct knowledge derved from experience.

Hence it is concluded that God can only be known without a doubt through direct experience and not by belief however articulate and seductive to reason it is.



I have faith and value it much. I am nothing without my faith. However I know I'll be able to let go of faith when I have experienced God directly because then I'll know.

Once again, very nice. But to say there was an instance in which we have not doubted nor had the ignorance of knowing God would be ridiculous, no? Is it not possible to contain both belief and knowlege at the same time, even if in paradoxial truth? After all, who's to say our heart and soul are to be bound to this world's laws of contradiction?

RIGHT mr TBone, Just a temporary post to let you know i'm meditatin on my reply for you now and shall edit it into this slot, but as i said in PM i tend to row my boat gently down the stream and cant guarentee how long it will take ....he he, sorry *bites lip with smile* ....but theres always tea and scones while your waiting

Again, sorry for being perceptively slow, i cant help how my mind was manefested.
Regards
nn23

Thanx

Hence to have belief in God is a means to knowing God. And if your belief system contains within it codes of conduct and spiritual disciplines that keep in harmony and cause no violence to yourself and others then you can know that it will be pleasing to God because God is love (we can have faith in this statement because it is the experience expounded by the mystics who have and do know God) and if your religion promotes love then you'll get to a point (if you practice it with intense faith) when you'll be consumed by love and therefore consumed by God. To be consumed by God is to experience God directly and therefore to know God for oneself.

Once God is known directly then where is there room for doubt? If there is no doubt then there is no need for trust/faith. To know God via direct experience is higher than to believe in God going by faith.

I myself have faith in God because I havnt experienced Him(It) directly. Therefore all I have said cannot be taken for granted or as truth because it is my opinion/belief. However my intuition/conscience tells me that this will lead to an experience of Christ consciousness and I know I can trust my intuition because it has never let me down before.

Once again I aplaude. Very Beautiful indeed. I guess my question is "Is the human mind trully capable of TRUE, undoubting, 100%, no-other-way-about-it knowlege then?" I know that even in my relationship (and I have had direct experiences......hence y i am a pastor, as He called me to it) i have had doubts....therefore i believe the three may, paradoxial if by no other way, collide in a "gray spectrum" if u will. I don't believe I will ever doubt again, as i do contain the knowlege....but u still must stick to faith. Belief must exist as well..... as beliefs are your personal mental assurance in the truth and knowlege. Ur thoughts?

You have contradicted yourself here but directly and not paradoxically. There can never be knowing without doubt if gray spectrums remain. You believe you will never doubt again translates to me as "Im certain though I cant prove it(even to myself) that I wont lose trust in God". If you "know" God exists and have had direct experiences with it then you wont have to believe anymore because now you know God. As Carl Jung explains:

"The word "belief" is a difficult thing for me. I don't believe. I must have a reason for a certain hypothesis. Either I know a thing, and then I know it - I don't need to believe it."

Why do you need to believe in God if you know God (which is greater by the way)??

If you have had direct experiences with God then why the need for mental assurance? Direct experience smashes all doubt.......
As for this question: "Is the human mind trully capable of TRUE, undoubting, 100%, no-other-way-about-it knowlege then?"

I have faith that there is such knowledge.

Ur replies r fascinating to me! I cannot promise I will never doubt, for the human mind is unpredictable and wavering. As I said, I will look for the scriptures on belief, but my mind calls for sleep at this time. You don't have to believe if you know, but u can. For some reason, the mind is comforted in your assurance of the knowlege u may possess. As i said, true knowlege may not be capable by the human mind. I do not choose btwn them, but do them both (there's the paradox, for it is true) . And though u would think a direct experience would smash all doubt, the human mind tends to doubt even the surest of knowlege, which surely u should know.

You can but that would show that you dont truly know.



I agree....true knowledge cannot be known by the human mind,hence the only way to have such knowledge is to transcend the human mind (which is just thought anyways). I myself have some quotes from some philosophers that will illustrate my point.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. --Romans 8:6 Paul of Tarsus

To be spiritually minded is to transcend thought which makes the carnal mind/desire for sensual and material pleasures. To do this we must identify with Spirit itself for that is the only way to be spiritually minded. As Jesus explains:

God is a Spirit; and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

Sorry for lack of reference point in the bible but I assure you it is in their for I just wrote quotes of Jesus and put "-----Jesus Christ" instead of the location in the bible. The question arises then, "Where is spirit?" Jesus answers this too:

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

My interpretation of this is:

You dont directly experience God on a conscious level because you lack the appropriate knowledge and teachings to learn how to experience It. But you are experiencing God directly even if you dont know it because God is all things including youself and if you arnt experiencing it consciously now then you will later for God is your true nature. (this is only my opinion but if you have read this far please please bare with me)

We know God dwells within us because as Jesus explains:

The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Where is God? In His Kingdom. Where is His Kingdom? Within you. What is God? Spirit. How does He want us to worship Him? In spirit. Therefore spirit is within us and we must identify with it if we are to be in it to worship God who is in it. If we dont the