This is some information that I have been studying from a book called 'The Mediation of Christ' by Thomas F. Torrance, which has challenged many of my early misconceptions about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is concerning the High Priest on the Day of Atonement: A Jewish Holy Day, in which the High Priest would enter into the Holy of Holies one time; risking his life, and stand before God on behalf of his people. Here is how we, Christians, see it fulfilled in Jesus.



In short, Thomas F. Torrance explains this revelation that Jesus Christ acted both as sacrifice [paying mankind's penalty for rejecting God] and High Priest [stepping in on our behalf to obtain reconciliation for us] and once and for all bridged the enmity between man and God that had been formed when Adam rejected God. The humanity that was plunged deep into corruption was lifted up with Christ and reconciled in perfect sanctity before the Father in Jesus Christ. It will also be interesting to note that when the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies, he would bring two goats in. One was to be sacrificed [representing the consequence of rejecting the Life Giver] and the other was given the burden of these sins and driven out into the wilderness to die. Interestingly enough; after Christ died, the Church entered the atoned side of the Cross [altar] and spread the Gospel of Reconciliation through Christ by means of His sacrifice, while the Temple in Jerusalem as well as Jerusalem was destroyed and Israel was cast out of the Holy Land [the covenant land] and put through tribulation for a long time at the hand of outsiders.

What do you make of this interpretation?

Much the same as Jesus cursing a fig tree and Adam & Eve using fig leaves to hide their "nudity".
That's probably Why John Lennon sang: "Let me take you down, cos' I'm going to Strawberry Fields, nothing is real, and nothing to get hung about.......
What do you make of this interpretation???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Just, jokin with ya.

Might want to check out the Hindu Vedas, seems they had the Trinity about 1500 years before Christianity even existed....

Better off Checking out the universe, it existed some 13.000.000.000 years before all kinds of things......

LOL

I agree with that to some point. In order for man to become " at one" with god would only work if God offered himself a living sacrifice..Jesus would have to be God mainfested in the flesh offering "himself" the Perfect sacrifice..Look at the detail the sacrifices had to be when they would be offered up on the day of atonement? It would be the only kind of sacrfice to cover All of Mans sins...just my two cents

by looking at your decimal point...that would be 13 years?
If your saying the universe existed some 13,000,000,000 before all kinds of things....then I guess Ill ask...are ya sure? and wheres your proof? I didnt think they had a exact time span there...of course I could be wrong..

Why would the supreme god of the universe have to have a sacrifice...seems that he could do what ever he wanted, after all he has no one to answer to! Besides which Vishnu would have been God manifested in the flesh a few thousand years before the first "Hebrew" immigrated from the Semitic cities into the Judean hill country.

Don't worry. You are beyond any doubt wrong about lots of other things too

Because of the golden rule, Mako, and since He made all the gold He can make the rules.

Now we are left with the question, "which god"....especially the golden rule is much older than Christianity and Judaism both...showing up in Hindu, Buddhism, Daoism, ancient Egyptian and Semitic religions that are far older that either of them.

so Jesus, who wanted to be crucified, will be coming back to crucify us, Irish (Golden Rule). Just jokin, lad

This is what I don't get, how can God die, and then be resurrected if he is eternal? I don't believe Jesus was God in the flesh because it just doesn't fit into the "God" category. For God to come to earth in a human form and sacrifice himself for mankind, that would bring God to the level of man, which He is not. I'm still searching for answers, hopefully people on UM can give me some good inputs.

So the God you speak of is only as old as the written word of man?

The concept of God is something our ancestors seem to have come up with about 40,000 years ago - therefor God is only about 40,000 years old. The Creator is older than the universe he created, but he is not what mankind considers to be God. The average human seems to want an humanoid construct with human emotions and human frailties, just bigger and more powerful version of us, as evidence by the gods of the ancients ranging from the Mesopotamian pantheon, to the Egyptian pantheon, to the Hebrew pantheon that they finally whittled down to one, to the Christian pantheon that they increased from the ancestral Jewish one to three, to the various gods and goddesses of the Africans, Native Americans, Oriental and other cultural groups. In short "God" is only as old as abstract thought and ideas among mankind, whereas the Creator is older than the Universe.

Just because our awareness of God might not go any further back than 40.000 years.......oh sorry......40,000 years, doesn't mean God or whoever, if anyone, is only 40,000 years old. There are lots of things we were not aware of 40,000 years ago, which we eventually did become aware of a short time ago.

Yeah, the Creator. Unfortunately, some members of society took the existence of the Creator and used him to create the concept of a God/Gods/Goddesses for their own personal power. Maybe at first they did it in an attempt to explain the universe and human existence, but it all soon became a power play by the "religious leaders", with the everyday person being but a pawn. This concept of God seems to have come about 40,000 years ago with the inception of abstract thought and ideas.

I think the awareness of God is as old as the awareness of love, Mako. And your right, everthing else connected to was and is crap

God did not die..The flesh died.The scriptures emphaticallly proclaim Christ's genuine and complet humanity (romanis 1:3:Heb 2:14-17, 5:7-8) He had a human body, soul, spirity,mind, and will (Luke 22:42, 23:46, Acts 2:31 ,philippians 2:5 hebrews 10:5, 10) Jesus was a perfect human with everything genuine humanity includes. Christ's true humanity does not mean He had a sinful nature. He was without sin, and sin was not in Him (heb 4:15 1pet 2:22 1John 3:5) He came with the kind of innocent human nature that adam and eve had in the beginning..

Beleif in Christs true humanity is essential to salvation (1john 4:3) If God did not truly come in the flesh, then there is no blood for remission of sin, no sacrifice of atonement. Teh very purpose of the Incarnation was to porvide a holy man to mediate between holy God and sinful mankind.

Got to distingish clearly between the two the diety and the humanity of christ. while jesus was both god and man at the same time, soemtimes He acted from the human viewpoint and sometimes from the divine viewpoint. As father he sometimes spoke from his divine self-consciouness, as sone he soemtimes spoke from his human self-consciouness. Only as a man could Jesus be born, grou be tiempted by the dvil hunger, theirst , become weary, sleep, pray, be beaten, die, not know all thinkgs, not have all power, be inferior to God, and be a SERVANT.

Only as God could he exist from eternity be unchanging, cast out devils by his own authority, be teh bread of life, give living water, give spiritual rest, calm the storm, answer prayer, heal the sick, raise His Body from tdeath, forgive sin know all things , have all power, be identified as God, and be King of Kings.
In an ordinary person these two contrasting lists would be mutually exclusive, yet the text attributes all of them to Jesus, revealing His dual nature..
although we must distinguish between christs deity and humanity it is impossible to separate the two in chirst (john 1:1, 14 , 10:30,38 , 14:10-11, 16:32).. The father united with humanity to form one being Jesus Christ the godhead incarnate.. While on earth Jesus was fully God , not merely an anointed man. At the same time , He was fully man, not just an appearance of man. He possessed the unlimited power, authority, and character of God, He was God by nature, by right, by identity, He was not merely diefied by an anointing or indwelling. unlike a spirit-filled beleiver, the humanity of Jesus was inextricably joined with all the fullness of Gods spirit..

Jesus is the fulness of God dwelling in perfect humanity and manifesting Himself as a perfect human being. He is not the transmutaion of God into flesh, the manifestiion of a portion of God, the animation of a human body by God, or Bod temporarily dwelliing in a Separate human person.. Jesus Christ is the incarnation -embodiment, human personifcation-of the one God..

It's okay to turn the world upside down for a joke, Sbradj.
You, just like everyone else, forgot something very important, because there was a young man who fled naked when Jesus was arrested.

So who is this wonderful young man who fled "naked"? I call him Joseph. I call him GT Joseph and NT Joseph, and just recently I've also started calling him Mark because of a real person I became acquainted with. Mark is another wonderful young man who flees "naked" from lies. I love Mark. He doesn't really know why he flees from crap, yet he somehow knows crap when he sees it.

So tell me, Sbradj, who and what is the young man who fled "naked" if you really are so absolutely clever. "John"? Yea, maybe we could call him John as well. Or how about Mozart? I love Mozart, he knew crap when he saw it.

I think that the Christian theology is that God emptied or limited himself when he was incarnated as Jesus. God wanted to "lower" himself because He loves us and sought to save us.

Personally, I am not a Christian per se, but there is something about Jesus that resonates with me very powerfully. The incarnation has an underlying symbology that I find very powerful: in part, that God is perfect in all things, including humility, thought that doesn't quite gibe with Jehovah, I know. I have no problem with God becoming man, especially a perfect man, because perfect is perfect, yes? A perfect man is as perfect as God.

And the cross -- the fact that Christ would die there for us -- is a perfect example of his humility. There's some liturgy from somewhere that says, "Christ humbled Himself unto death, even death upon a cross..."

Every time I get a little full of myself because I have gained this or that insight, I try to remember that perfect symbol of humility, and if I do, it zaps me right back to earth.

I'm not putting this very well, I know.

Did I come anywhere near answering your question?

Yes! How loving the Vatican can be if it wants to be loving!

Everything is a lie except real LOVE, don't forget love, real LOVE, folks. Thats all Folks

In the very act of atonement, God revealed Himself to us in a way which grounds and sustains the saving act. God LOVES us. That is the revelation that we received from His atoning act. God didn't have anyone to answer to. He did it because He loved us. He loved us because He wanted to.

But God shouldn't have to lower himself in order to save his own creation. I do think that there is a creator, but I'm still trying to sort the truth from the lies. Saying that God himself has to die and be resurrected to save his own creation shows that his creation was not perfect.

And this revealing was unknown to the very people he chose to give his commandments, the Jews. I do not disagree that God loves his creation, but I don't know why God would do something that he did not tell his own chosen people he would do. On another note, sins do not require a blood sacrifice.

APOLOGY FROM LIBRA II

Dear everyone!
I would like to apologize for my childish and stupid behavior yesterday.
I don't like to break down and divide people, but sometimes the big soft baby inside me gets the better of me, and then I say things that I soon regret.
I am sorry, Irish, for the childish question, I am sorry, Bluefinger my crazy "theology", and I am sorry, Sbradj for my aggressive way of questioning you.
I am also sorry because I at one point said that "everything else is crap", as if to say if you agree with me about "A" then you must be idiots if you do not agree with me on "B". That was terribly arrogant and even pathetic, and I apologize. If I have hurt anyone else's feelings at any time, then I also apologize for that to.

No one has asked me to apologize, I just know it is the right thing to do. Hope you all can find it within your hearts to forgive me

Another time just say something like: "That's not nice", or "you're going over the line, lad", I'll most likely get the message and apologize right away.

Love ya all

Dear, Christians!

I think love and forgiveness is good, and far better than answering questions about the trinity, why Jesus had to die and etc.
Another thing I believe is good is to put your money where your mouth is. I remember watching Schindler's List, and at the end of the film, Schindler, started crying, and he admitted he could have saved more people. Maybe not many, but they would have counted too.

I don't see anyone in the Protestant or Catholic Churches crying about how many more people they could have saved from the freezing cold winters, starvation in third world countries and many other things.

Is it more important to explain the the trinity and etc., than it is to do what Schindler did. Don't get me wrong, I am well aware of the fact that the Churches give money away, and that there are many good Christians who are doing lots of great things for lots of people, but I am also well aware of the fact that the Churches could do lots more.

Here goes I hope I can explain well....
Jesus was God in flesh- meaning that He "took off" His Godhood and allowed Himself to be stripped down to flesh in order to be able to die. God cannot be killed, except when He chooses to lay aside His power as Jesus did. Jesus said many times that He had no "power" of His own, but that it was the power of God the Father within Him that gave Him miraculous capability. Jesus would not have had any worth to humanity as a sacrifice if He had disobeyed God in any way, but through His complete obedience, and therefore His complete innocence He was able to offer Himself as God in flesh, obedient to the Father and completely "at one" with His Father. His sacrifice is a deep thing, and the mystery of Faith is that these things can be accepted without having to have all the answers. I know a lot about Christ, but I don't know it all. Faith brings salvation and blessing.
"Faith is accepting what you have not seen"

The Hebrews were given many prophecies of the coming Messiah, they just don't like how Jesus actually was. They looked for a conquering warlord to strike down their enemies, Jesus said to "Love your enemies". They knew who He was, they just didn't want to believe it.
The Bible says that "...without blood, there can be no forgiveness of sins..." God Himself made the first sacrifice in the Garden of Eden when He slaughtered a lamb to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve.

That seems a little sketchy to me, so God chose to give up his power of being God to become a human. So does that mean God can completely give up his power of being God, which would not make him God anymore?



I've done research on all these "prophecies" and they are not prophecies when put into text. How about when people did not have animals or birds to sacrifice and they used flour for remission on unintentional sins?

Christ is apart of the trinity which makes up the Godhead. The trinity is one of the more perplexing and wonderful things God has thrown to humans for our mortal minds to ponder. There are so many things that are above our mind that seem so perplexing and illogical because people naturally disagree with something they cannot understand or view it as false. People need to realize that we are dealing with an exalted being here who's IQ and logic is unfathomable to our human minds. Christ was and is God in the flesh...He is now an exalted being but when he walked the face of the earth he knew the only one that could atone for the sin of mankind was himself, and no other. So he manifested himself into a man, but a perfect man, because after-all it was God in the flesh who made no sins. Mako asks why would God who can have everything his way have to sacrifice himself when he can just snap his fingers and let things flow the way he wants? I say two reasons why he sacrificed himself, to show the love he had for mankind, and for honor.

Cloud, also to answer your question on why would God give up his power to turn himself into a man..

God was able to split and create himself into a man, but still had his exalted perfected form on the throne in heaven even when he was manifested on earth in human form. This blows my mind and I awe at the power of God. The trinity is something like eternity, so hard for humans to comprehend. When you are God, and you defy logic these things aren't complicated, but to humans they are. We like to think we know all as humans, but we don't, we know very little and we do err. We are flawed so thats why I don't put my trust in man, but in God I do trust, and I do not question his ways.

[quote name='Nephilim_Slayer' date='Jun 23 2007, 09:10 PM' post='1739527']
C There are so many things that are above our mind that seem so perplexing and illogical because people naturally disagree with something they cannot understand or view it as false. People need to realize that we are dealing with an exalted being here who's IQ and logic is unfathomable to our human minds.


Well how does expect us to do what he wants .if he us unfathomable to our human minds?


fullywired

Perhaps He wants you to listen with your heart

I have not yet learn't that trick ,I can only do it with my ears and I've been around the block a few times .perhaps it's to late

fullywired

God speaks to us thru our hearts, fullywired-- you listen with your heart.

There is no "trick" to it. It's as natural as feeling emotion. & it's never too late..
Have you ever had the strong desire to do something because something deep down told you it was the right thing to do? well, its very similar to that.

Dear Christians!

CONTINUED

Neither did I ever hear a pope.....or a queen for that matter, crying and admitting they could have saved more people, as Schindler did.
So let me also ask you good Christian folks this: How much should love and everything that goes along with love fill your belief in God? Is it 10%, 25%, 50%, how about 85%, or perhaps even 100%? With 100% there would be no space left for all your senseless dogmas.......you wouldn't need them either.

Judge a man by his questions, Irish? What kind of man or woman would that be? Those you don't like? And what kind of questions would they be? The kind of questions you don't like. Don't be surprised if there are better people than you in this word who might ask you questions you don't like.

Sorry, Irish. Ididn't mean to say that. I still love ya, mate

I have no idea what you are trying to convey with this statement.

Neither do I

Here is something for you Slayer:

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/The...8256BC20013849C

Take care

How can it be that I understand what you people are telling me, whereas you don't even want to listen to what I'm saying?

Okay, so Jesus died on the cross. I agree. Jesus DID die on the cross, and we are all killing him over and over again with all our crap.



So let me prove that Jesus died on the cross:

1. God is LOVE according to John the apostle.
2. Jesus is Gods LOVE which wanted to change our unloving ways of life - but we told him to BUGGER OFF.

Jesus, or should I say LOVE, has been crucified by mankind over and over and over again for many thousands of years
We are at the same time crucifying ourselves and each other by crucifying LOVE.

The trinity? Does the trinity really exist as you say? Yes, the trinity really does exist. But what's it got to do with you people? You love dogmas far more than you love LOVE.

Sorry for disturbing. Forget everything I said about LOVE. LOVE has obviously got nothing to do with any of you people.

That is not proof at all just to let you know, also if there was proof that Jesus died on the cross then we wouldn't have so many arguements over it. As for the trinity, I don't believe in a God that is split up into three different things. There are so many verses that disprove the trinity in the Old Testament.

That's not what I meant, Cloud, I was simply using Jesus as a personification of LOVE. I didn't mean it any other way.
As for the trinity, well that's much the same.

Take care, Cloud

Listen, Cloud, I'll explain a little better. I can't imagine It's got anything to do with me whether or not a man was crucified "for our sins", but it does matter to me what the biblical character stood for. I believe he is a personification of LOVE being rejected and "crucified" by the people. Which people? All people.

I don't know if such a person really existed or not, but that is not the question here, because all I know for sure is that the word is LOVE. There is no reason to get religious about this, and certainly no need to get Christian about it either, I'm simply pointing out that the character from the New Testament is in my opinion a personification of LOVE, and then I pointed out to some Christian people that since they believe in the Bible, and if what I'm saying really is right, then LOVE is the answer, not all kinds of ideas like the trinity and the crucifixion of a man who we must feel sorry for while we leave others to starve, freeze to death and etc.

If ever I decide to get religious, then I certainly let you know about it, Cloud. Hope I've explained myself well enough.

Take care

the only problem for Christians is that he gave it to so many other peoples (Egyptians, Hindu, Zoroasterians, etc) long before he "bestowed" it upon Chistianity...almost like the ealy chuchmen borrowed/stole it from the other much older religions. That is the perplexing thing about it!

That is the wrong question, Marko, The right question is which story they got the trinity from and why they used that story from A - O.

boy you guys are great. both responses have had at lest so historical truth to them. hears a simple answer for you mako. adam and eve were the first people also gods chosen people
and these people eventuly became jewish in our turms but they always worshiped god. so nobody predates them. if scientfic proof is what you need there is more evidence the bible is correct and more scrolls by far than any others in history. there's more proof sercomstantsal(i suck at spelling) than what we have that proves gorge washington exsisted.lol so please give me more to shutdown, i do respect a learner but there are some absolutes.

Here's a simpler answer....Adam and Eve are mythology and not even original mythology, but mythology borrowed from the ancestral Semitic religions of the predecessors of what would become the Jewish people.

and if you take it as mythology what do you take all your other religions for? and sence there is more proof why would you believe the lesser over the greater? il-logical