Nope not the same, perhaps the suggestion we should make the Wiki entry sticky is a darn good one, but it needs to be triggered by the word Coelacanth.

One more time, just for you
Heck, I am in such a good mood, I'll offer you a special extended version



Even the two surviving species show differences in DNA. Evolution at work yet again, yet so many doubt it's theories. Meh.

OK, who posted this link Underground Caverns
I am having quite some trouble finding the original post............


Anyhow, I have had a look at this page and found some distrubing inconsistancies.

From the above link




Yet
One the Scorpion



and on the Thresher




Not an accurate source. Therefore, the existance of such subterranian caves is in doubt.

This link also does not realise the existance of convergant evolution.

That's what I've been trying to tell them all this time! Thanks as usual, Psyche!

No probs friend

I couldn't help myself, as he mentioned DNA, I though that deserved a gold star, so I offered a little extra on the fishes DNA

What if its a Tortoise? think about it,the hump ppl see is the shell,the second one could be the tail,and the neck....well have u ever seen a Giant Tortoises neck?? it could be an unknown turtle...

this is just a rumor, but i heard that there are hidden tunnels that lead deep into the earth to undergroud caverns. just a thought.

yeah thats been talked about. some say yes, some say no.
a guy posted a link back in this thread. apparently a man thinks he may have found a type of cavern. nice read

http://www.nessie.co.uk/nessie/lochness.html

By using that argument you're just shooting yourself in the foot.

Coelacanth:
• Small
• Lives in the ocean
• Discovered ~70 years ago.

Loch Ness Monster:
• Large
• Lives in a loch
• Undiscovered to the present day.

That doesn't strike you as being odd? It does me.

If we had evidence of the Loch Ness monster, we wouldn't be calling it a monster.

Somewhat related to caves in California:

Floating continent

One interesting point is



If you notice the map, there is another cool spot, inland from in Oregon / California that looks similar to the one under Seattle.

I missed the part that connect caves in California to the Loch Ness monster though lol.

Obviously beacuse they were afraid of being eaten by a Loch Ness Dragon/Monster/Plesiosaur.

Somehow, no matter how hard I want Nessie to be truly exist, I'd have to keep my mind in a state that "Nessie might've been a big eel, not a surviving dinos or something undiscovered". But I've been waiting for someone to prove me wrong.

*Gives Capo a Snickers Bar* Your not going anywhere for awhile if your waiting for that, my friend.

^Thanks, I'm gonna need those. Crunch...chew...sniff...

I smell Snickers.



I like Snickers.



I'll help Capoeiranger for a Snickers.


What are we doing then?

That's bull. All of the world's oceans were warmer during the Mesozoic.

Im kinda thinking it may be an oversized,undiscovered species of tortoise......i mean it really makes sencse when i look at the pics...in a way.

Nothing can EVER be proved with video....See "Jurasic Park"

Lol true,look how good they did,anyone agree that number 3 kinda sucked?? lol. Also can anyone tell me of ANY sightings or reports of a serpent/unknown creature in Lake Michigan? Cause me and my cousin saw something and it hit our boat....

but theyve found some fossils of them down in australia when there was really cold weather at the time. meaning they think they could have possibly lived in colder weather.

^Oh yes, they could. But as it was stated above, during the era, all, and I mean ALL ocean got warmer. Even in down under, right Psyche?

Thats right, I assume we are talking about the Cretaceous when the temperatrure was globally on average about 10 deg C higher than today. I also assume we are still on the Plesiosaur idea, they existed from the Jurrasic through to the KT event (Cretaceous). Apparently they were doing OK until the big rock fell out of the sky.
I assumed the Cretaceous as thats when Plesiosaur's existed.

The Mesozoic extended roughly 180 million years: from 251 million years ago to when the Cenozoic era began 65 million years ago.

From oldest to youngest:

Triassic (251.0 Mya to 199.6 Mya)
Jurassic (199.6 Mya to 145.5 Mya)
Cretaceous (145.5 Mya to 65.5 Mya)

Pretty darn cold down under ATM. Brrrr.

i cant rule out that it isnt a dolphin, but not a seal cuz its neck is too short and the body size doesnt really work with the size in the pictures and videos i hav seen

The Loch Ness is Freshwater though, no freshwater dolphins survive in that part of the world that I know of. River Dolphins are a rare species.

I have to agree with psyche, it is very unlikely that whatever is in Loch Ness is a dolphin. Plus, don't dolphins surface a little more often than Nessie sightnings occur?

I like how they said there's a chance, unlike 500% of other videos./

I watched a doco where a pipe was stuck in the Loch (with a curved top) and a bunch of people were told it was a pipe, but told to just keep watching it anyway. Passerbys saw the people watching the pipe, and took a look for themselves. Suddenly the police station was flooded with calls of Nessie sightings. When the doco people came to the area with a camera, people were freaking out and crying that they saw Nessie.

Eye-witness accounts are difficult, because it depends on what you believe, if they genuinely saw something unusual, believed they did, or are simply lying for whatever reason. I think if looking at evidence, the photos and vids are the way to go.

A head gliding through water photos and vids are the only ones I think matter, leading me to believe seal or eel, the long neck pics can't show a plesiosaur because they couldn't lift their heads in such a way. It could very well be a land animal of course that sometimes ventures into the water. I'd love for it to be a prehistoric creature so bad, but I just can't bring myself to believe it I still hold my breath when new Nessie sightings emerge though, just in case...

And you are intrested?

Actually, nessie probably was warmblooded, like most dinosaurs.

Do you think we can safely say that, WHATEVER it is that people are seeing, it's anything but a monster?

It depends on your defintition of monster.

The Huge, barrel bodied creature with a long neck that many people reported seeing out of the water around Loch Ness cannot be a sturgeon, eel, or even a seal. It seems to be the same "monster" reported in the story of St. Columba in the 6th century AD, and the countlless accoutnts of similar creatures described as "dragons" for 5.000 years of human history.

Suropod is the only prehistoric animal with a long neck that can lift it's head up. However, a sauropod will not stay close, let alone got into the water, due to their massive weight, they would simply bog themsleves out.

The only reasonable explanation for Nessie is: A loose elephant from a local circus that tried to cross the lake and accidentally got sccoped by a lucky cameraman...

I suppose it's just human nature to call anything that could presumably eat you a monster.

Forgive me, I know and respect how passionate you are about this subject, but the idea of a dragon(not to mention the possibility of multiple dragons) hangin-out on Earth beacuse they've got nuthin better to do, is a little hard to wrap my brain around.

Depends on what you're thinking about here. If you're thinking that Nessie is a plesiosaur then plesiosaurs were not dinosaurs, and were in fact just reptiles, and thus probably cold-blooded. Although I believe that the ichthyosaurs may have been holothermic, and may have been able to maintain quite a warm body temperature through muscle movement, much like modern tuna and some sharks. But if it stopped for too long, it would lose its heat very quickly, especially so in a medium such as water which saps body heat much quicker than air. Who knows?



Why don't we try going down a different avenue? Like the monster is in fact a really big male otter. I mean really big! Failing that, a walrus.

Loch Ness is the most voluminous freshwater lake in Britain. It's the second largest loch (lake) in Scotland after Loch Lomond. The UK's largest lake is Lough Neagh in Northern Ireland. Loch Ness is the 4th largest. (They are lochs in Scotland, loughs in Northern Ireland and lakes in England. In Wales, a lake is a Llyn).

There are several theories as to what the Loch Ness Monster (if it exists) might be. Here are some of them:

PLESIOSAUR

The most common eyewitness description of Nessie, is that of a plesiosaur, a long-necked aquatic reptile that became extinct during the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event. Supporters of the plesiosaur theory cite the survival of a fish called the coelacanth, which supposedly went extinct along with the plesiosaur but was rediscovered off the coast of Madagascar in 1938.

On the other hand, mainstream science does offer plausible reasons why such an animal could not exist in Loch Ness. Apart from its apparent extinction, the plesiosaur was probably a cold-blooded reptile requiring warm tropical waters, while the average temperature of Loch Ness is only about 5.5°C (42°F). Even if the plesiosaurs were warm-blooded, they would require a food supply beyond that of Loch Ness to maintain the level of activity necessary for warm-blooded animals.
*************************

KELPIE

According to the Swedish naturalist and author Bengt Sjögren (1980), present day beliefs in loch monsters such as "Nessie" are associated with the old legends of kelpies. He claims that the accounts of loch monsters have changed over the ages, originally describing a horse appearance, they claimed that the "kelpie" would come out of the lake and turn into a horse. When a tired traveller would get on the back of the kelpie, it would gallop into the loch and devour its prey. This myth successfully kept children away from the loch, as was its purpose. Sjögren concludes that the kelpie legends have developed into more plausible descriptions of lake monsters, reflecting awareness of plesiosaurs. In other words, the kelpie of folklore has been transformed into a more "realistic" and "contemporary" notion of the creature. Believers counter that long-dead witnesses could only compare the creature to that which they were familiar -- and were not familiar with plesiosaurs.
****************************

LONG-NECKED SEAL

Peter Costello posed the theory that Nessie and other reputed lake monsters were actually an unknown species of long-necked seal. This theory is supported by several sightings of the monster on land, during which the creature supposedly waddled into the loch upon being startled, in the manner of seals. However, all known species of pinnipeds are usually visible on land during daylight hours to sunbathe, something that Nessie was never known to do.
*************************

ELEPHANT

A theory presented by Neil Clark, the curator of paleontology at the Hunterian Museum in Glasgow has suggested that Nessie could merely be a swimming elephant, as there was a travelling circus passing through the area during the heyday of the sightings.
***************************

EEL

Some have theorized that "Nessie" may be a large eel. Some believe that an eel might have grossly enlarged in order to eat the bigger fish, or that a larger eel species inhabits the loch. But an eel could not protrude swanlike from the water as described in various sightings.
************************

OTHER ANIMALS

Some theorists attribute the monster sightings to large pike (Esox lucius), sturgeon, dolphins, a surviving Tullimonstrum, dogs, otters, birds, and large molluscs (such as a large cephalopod) or giant nematodes.

Ummmmm, while it is true some marine reptiles like mososaurs are normal reptiles, Plesiosaurs are archosaurs, which include warm blooded animals like birds, but also cold blooded animals like crocodiles. No one has yet proven whether dinosaurs or plesiosaurs were truly warmblooded, but they could have been since birds are, and they are all archosaurs.

Plesiosaur-like animals were acknowledged and frenquently depicted in ancient art, and are called Ketos. They are most commonly seen in acneint Christian art as the creature that swallows Jonah. They look just like Nessie.

An elephant? Scotland is not in Africa.

It's not in the Jurassic, either.

Nor in Middle Earth, but please, read my post, it's not just an elephant, but a loose circus elephant. That makes it out of ordinary, non?

Many of the early reports were very detailed, including the ones seen on land. These people would know an elephant when it crossed the road. Also, the guy who created the 1933 hoax picture was a professional big game hunter, who made the hoax after he couldn't catch the creature. He probably could have caught an elephant.

And people are still seeing the creature today. That elephant should be dead by now.

Yh an elephant can't live 300 years lol.

Yeah, and so does an evolved Plesiosaur in a cold lake, LOL 2 !

I've always thought the kelpie theory would be cool, although it would tend to be an Each Uisge. More or less the same, but the each uisge inhabits lochs and sea-lochs, as opposed to the normally lotic kelpie. But yeah, great stuff. In fact, I would go one further and say it's a shelleycoat, since it doesn't seem to maliciously hurt people, being more happy to just play some mischief and play tricks of them ind on people


Shelly-coat, shelly-coat, gang awa hame,
I cryna your mercy, I fearna your name


Taunting it might work, they don't like that! The above rhyme is a good one to use

...Seals can move around on land. They're mammals, not fish, and they're small enough for their lungs to not be crushed out of water.

My favourite theory for Nessie is the plesiosaur one, because living fossils are gooooood.

Nessie forever. But the carcass (which is pretty similiar to the Zaiyro Manzi carcass) could possibly be a basking shark. The Loch is with the Ocean, so that has some possibility, I guess. But if THAT carcass is Nessie, why is there other footage or pics from 2007? That has to be like...an offspring or something. Can't be Nessie. I am a lover of Cryptozoology, but my thoughts are through my head trying to figure this stuff out, the carcass for present day Nessie pics, for example. Plesiosaurs died out at the time of the dinos, but some might have survived in a cave.

Oh, and I feel kinda disappointed that they call Nessie a monster. Unless its' a killer, like something that sinks a bunch of boats, (think of the Pansy, think of the Pansy...), Nessie should not be regarded as a monster. I prefer Loch Ness Creature AND of all my research on the Loch Ness and the creature that inhabits it, I have not seen any recorded attacks from Nessie.

Zuiyo Maru carcass was a basking shark, no doubt about it, and the "carcass" Rines encountered was in my opinion just some tree roots and plant remains. Why would Plesiosaurs live in caves? Do they find it joyful to live under the threat of perhaps getting stuck and drowing?

The plesiosaur theory has to be one of the most unlikely ones...

Then explain your theory to me. What in the world could Nessie be, how did she get there, and how did she survive. Give me all your theories on this. PM me, quote this post. I don't care. Just give me theories.

Initial misidentification followed by more misidentification coupled with hope and wishful thinking.

Plesiosaur?? Goodness, is that tired theory still being bandied about!

The BBC put thousands of sonar beams down there. Guess what they found.

a few possible underwater caverns. and a WHOLE lot of dark
the loch is like pitch black. so if somethings a cavern, no one will see it

Hiya Buddy

Sonar does not care how dark it is and it can be angled into caverns, or operated by remote vehicles to explore caverns

Come on buddy, nessie aint in there, you know that I know you are not an out an out believer !!! Your secret is out, you will listen to prestened fact and reasonable logic!!

That's gonna work in your favour with Scully big fella :nudge nudge wink wink:

What if like the army or some locals took the body allready and dont want to tell no-one.