Howdy!
I suppose most of you are familiar with MTV's series "Popetown":

If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, here are some links to an episode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQYLO6RtXns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SoynJ2MGCI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnjDOKb_PrQ

The series caused quite a ruckus here. Debates, insults from side to side, everything.
Now, I think the series isn't that great and that South Park beats living s*** out of this one, but the debate that followed its release here got me thinking:

Does the liberty of expression allow you to say whatever you want about anyone, no matter how ofensive or false it may be, and in particular about religious beliefs?
Or is there a limit?
If there is, where do you draw the line?


Please, do NOT use this as a platform to bash any faith. It's not the idea of this thread

Freedom of speech covers all aspects, even of the things we don't like to hear. This is a tough question because I hate to hear anyone bash someone else for their religious beliefs, it really makes me sad because I know how it feels; but I also do not want to see any rights taken away because certain things may upset someone. Thats life, we just have to get over it.

I really don't see where a line could be drawn, we just have to rely on the people at hand to have a little dignity and respect to know when to stop.

It is a fine line, for sure. However, while there is always freedom of expression and one can't necessarily declare by law, what is obscene, one always has the individual right to exercise personal discretion. So, for instance with respect to that series in the OP, if one doesn't like it, turn the channel and never look again. But don't make that decision that "you" do not want to watch it, one that I necessarily have to live with. I have the free right to choose, and if it's broadcast, given the rules that apply through the FCC in this country at least, it means it met certain criteria for that to be allowed. Because really, there is no such thing as "free speech" when one has media "censors" and the FCC, in place. But what is the absolute irrefutable possession of every media consumer, is the right to turn the channel. What someone finds objectionable for themselves, may not be so for others. And given how much hatred exists in the world, in the name of religious faith, humor and levity, are natural pressure release valves.

Taking it to another level that says, it doesn't all have to be taken that seriously. And yes, people are killed in the name of faith, I realize and that is of course deadly serious. However, that has been going on since the inception of religion, and indeed many holy texts advocate such behaviors, so I see no problem with meeting over the top depravity, with humor that some may consider over the top. I'd rather laugh, than bleed, in the name of religion.

saddly to say there is no standard on freedom of expression, any ole beleif goes, little value is placed on ideas and little is open to scrutiny....when is it ocnsidered a freedom to violate or harm another in the name of anything???? i'd love to see standards set a model of behavior that is inspirational and worthy of emulation , the model we have now is piss poor to say the least..

Say whatever you want as long as you do not trample on the rights of others and cross into the arena of malicious falsehoods.

Morality is always changing, reshaping itself to fit our society, so it's difficult to have any real solid guidelines that would stand the test of time. The only practical one I can think of is:

"If more people are offended by it than enjoy it, then it's crossed the line. "

Freedom of expression, within its legal context, usually means the right to express onesself or speak freely as long as it isn't

A)Slander/Libel, done with malicious intent (public figures have a much harder time proving this); or
B )Fighting Words, speech done that has the direct capability to cause violence, like provoking a mob to go lynching; or
C)Lewdness (at least in America), usually sexual-related expression that does not serve a 'real purpose' (aside from human pleasure, of course).

Although I disagree with C, as it stands, you are and ought to be free to say what you want as long as it fits into the above. For example, while writing falsely in a newspaper that the Pope is a pedophile is almost certainly libel, calling him a homophobe is not, or can be argued not to be. So, to the original OP, I would generally agree that regardless of how offensive it is, it ought to be allowed (within the above rules, and also within reason; like not allowing 'snuff videos').

People also have the freedom, to ignore and not listen to people when they don't want to.
I don't think there needs to be a limit, as long as people aren't forcing personal will onto others.

If one is truly honest one will definitely end up offending "someone" out there.



Things that challenge our thinking can make some of us uncomfortable and that will offend some

discomfort=offense

In many ways I agree that you have every right to turn it off.

I like SouthPark as a general rule... but there are a handful of episodes that I just really don't like and think come dangerously close to crossing the line with me.

Unfortunately, because I like the series, I ended up watching all those episodes I didn't like at least once to see if there was a point. I know now which episodes they are and I turn the channel with they are rerun, but I did watch them once and was sorry I did.

As long as people are considerate, the sky's the limit

In my opinion, there isn't a line. People have the right to say what they want about people, which is why groups like the WBC, and the Neo-Nazis, and the radical Muslims of America, are allowed to say whatever they want about us. It's why in California it is legal to burn an American flag in the name of free speech. It is why in Florida Jose Miranda can rile people up enough to get them ready to try and overthrow our government. People have a right to opinion, speech, and religion. The best we ourselves as individuals can do is to be kind, and love one another. Regardless of what we may believe. However, I am always up for a hearty discussion.

I understand what you mean, and to a big extent I agree. Although continuing your example of the Pope in the newspapers, if I did it without any real proof, regardless of the result, I would have gotten the intended result because some might think "Oh look at that, how that man is evil. Bad bad person. What a sick f***", and even if the Vatican showed undeniable proof of the contrary they woud still think the same thing and believe the Vatican is just covering it up inventing proof.
Now, that's only regarding to your example.

You're drawing some kind of line with the slander, fighting words and lewdness, but the problem is, journalists many times don't follow that guideline and do whatever it takes to prove their point and fill their agenda, because there is NO such thing as objective journalism. Sure, some are less biased than others, but completely objective, no, it doesn't exist. And with the avalanche of information that we get these days, it's can be quite easy to take the information at face value.

Maybe that's why I take 99.9999% of the news with a grain of salt


Now, regarding GW's post:
Yeah, you can change the channel if you don't want to see it, but the problem was that here, in Chile, MTV is available only on cable TV. And what do you if lots of people that are paying for your service pop up asking to ban a program? Ignore them? THAT was the problem.
You wouldn't know the fuzz that happened around here. I remember that when I went to church one Sunday there was people giving pamphlets saying why Popetown should be banned. They have every right to do so, and some of their arguments were quite valid (for instance, that freedom of expression is not an end on itself but rather a means to a higher purpose, the truth. I agree with that ). But, in another way, I thought that because of the fuzz that generated here, MTV got precisely the result it wanted: ratings and money. You know, controversy=money (if you don't believe me, ask Dan Brown ). And it revealed what Popetown really is: a brilliant marketing move

people choose to be offended, they can choose not to be its really that elementary when have you known religion not to get upset or insulted when having a converstation regarding religion without someone choosing to be offended.....let me know I'd love to see it...LOL

NO WONDER you offend people so much, because you believe that they're only offended if they choose to be. WOW! Thank You Sheri, next time I choose to be offended by you, I will attempt to return the favor

Actually... That is the case more often than not. People choose to be offended over things they don't need to be.

Diversity is the spice of life! Expression is one of man's most basic rights.

I do have a problem with people who slander and harass to promote their own agenda, especially on a methodical and continuous basis.

I think we should respect someone else's beliefs, even if we don't agree with them. We can disagree without belittling others.

I see too many people waging word wars without realizing that there are very few absolutes in this world. They are so concerned with 'proving their point' that they don't care who they hurt in the process. Freedom of speech is wonderful--but if the price we have to pay for that freedom is at someone's elses expense, I think we've crossed the line.

I see very little respect for differing of ideas. I see generalizations, stereotypes, finger-pointing--all for the sake of "enlightenment."

I wonder how many are really enlightened?

Obvoiuslly on this board their is a limit on free speach, as was shown in the "Does God hate priests" Post. Obviously we cant throw arround the word hate unless we are quoting the Bible. It is obvious that Organized Religion has hijacked God, and is fleecing the average joe out of his Spirituality and Good old green hard cash. I think religion owes many people reperations for enslavement for more then 2000 years.

People should feel free to beleive anything they want(but because all the 3000 religions alive in the world today have not one scrap of evidence between them to give one dominion over the other,all beleifs must be treated equal).
Where religion goes wrong and has a negative effect on society is when it is used(or abused) to encourage bigotry,intolerance and hatred for others.
Also, relgions attempting to brainwash/condition/indoctrinate inductees to foster the mindset that they are somehow superior to others is unhealthy and irresponsible too.
Its ironic that many religious extremists(of any persuasion) cry out for tolerance and understanding for their beleifs yet utterly fail to reciprocate those same values to freethinkers,agnostics,atheists etc..(tolerance is a two way street).
As for brainwashing children (undercover mosque/jesus camp etc) I find it abhorent and children should be afforded the luxury of arriving at their own conclusions and not have religious beleifs forcefully imposed upon them.
Its certainly a fine line between freedom of speech and religion and its worth pointing out that although political ideologies/nationalism play a large part in violent warfare-religion certainly acts as a catalyst too.
It also appears some religions do not favour free speech and would rather the population just mindlessly accept what they're told from others-its interesting that the Pakistani government just put a man to death for 'blasphemy'-if this is not state sponsered execution gone insane then I don't know what is.

I believe that no one on unexplained mysteries (including myself) is enlightened.

Once again, more generalizing and propaganda. Just because someone has a belief system, they have been "brainwashed."

There is good and bad in EVERYTHING. Politics, Religion, Cultures. People have been using religion to promote their own political agendas for centuries. WHO DOESN'T KNOW THIS ALREADY? But to condemn a person's culture or religion simply because people have abused the culture and religion doesn't essentially make the culture and religion bad--it makes the people abusing the religion and culture bad.

Why can't people see that? It's the ABUSE of the religion that's the problem.

When what someone believes causes death, injury,then the line has been crossed! When you demand all other beliefs havn,t the right to express thier belief because you think only yours is right, you,ve crossed the line! When you insite others to hate because you don,t agree with thier politics, religion, gender, or sexual prefrance,culture,race, then the line has been crossed! And we are crossing that line all over the world on a daily basis, I,m just greatful to still live in a country where i,m free to say it!