http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr...ntingBeyond.htm for full article


I have been researching this concept for quite some time now and its a big question, How do we raise non believer kids in a beleiver's world...I have a few psychologists that are dear friends and have shared some great insights for all that are interested all POV are welcome I'd love to explore this topic for ideas, concerns, where ever it leads, any thioughts are appreciated.... this thread isn't to bash anyone so lets keep it peaceful......


With at least seven million irreligious parents in America trying to raise their children without religion, there is obviously a large potential market — so why haven't more authors attempted to write for them? Dale McGowan has edited what may be the first comprehensive book on secular, irreligious parenting: Parenting Beyond Belief: On Raising Ethical, Caring Kids Without Religion. Contributors include Penn Jillette, Dan Barker, Richard Dawkins, Julia Sweeney, and many more from the fields of psychology, philosophy, and education.

Like any good humanistic, freethinking work it provides no definitive answers. This isn't a "how to" book with instructions on how to raise a secular child without religion, and it certainly doesn't provide instructions on how to change diapers. Christians may be able to argue that there is a specific path to be followed in order to raise children as Christians, but humanists must find their own path and make decisions appropriate to their own individual situation.

meh too much hassle lol...just kidding


I think what's best is IMO to let the kid decide...that's it...

Ie - i could ram it down beckys throat...only to later on walk awy from it and turn a different corner

OR i could force her to only believe there is no God ...only to have her later on turn to a faith

Can't say that those things don't happen..

kids are individuals just like the rest of us and in time, will without a doubt, make up their OWN minds

It's kinna like when you are a - ie - Doctor.......your father before you was a doc and his father before him. Your dream is for your son to be a doctor...you force him to learn all about medicine, pay for all his medical schooling fee's.......only to later find he dropped out and joined a band...then what?? who's to blame.???

You for not listening to your kids needs?

OR

The kid...he did this out of badness to get back at you?

I am a betting gal, and I would most likely say - you for not listening out for your kids needs, letting your kid decide for themselves, following THEIR dream, and not yours....doing what makes them happy and keeps them safe....


the above is only MY own thoughts...

BAH!!!

I myself would parent in a mutual parenting relationship with children. I don't believe in a parenting where the children are given free run to do as they please, but I also don't believe in parenting where the parents have full control. I think once a child reaches it's teen years it is then the responsibility of the child to make certain choices. However, there must be balance, I don't believe healthy parenting has scales tipped in either which direction. Parents should live in mutual harmony, after all the children are a part of the family as well, and as such they should be given a voice.

its not fair to call your children "non-believers", because they dont have the maturity to make that decisions for themselves. and by the time they are, they will have already flown from the nest. most likely. you shouldnt raise your children as "non-believers". jsut be who you are, and if your children one day find that your lifestyle and decisions are relavant in their own lives, so be it.

I believe you sound a lot like someone who cares for their kids...a caring parent...this is what I have picked up..so yea Im judging you...but judging you in a good way only cuz I like and agree with how you think on this.................and i recal you saying in another thread - you would die for your kids...BM here misses NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!

Raising your kid irreligious is just as bad as raising them religious, let them decide for themselves.

Sis thankyou for this you are so right "listen to our kids' How do you feel about raising in a religion exclduding all other systems as the one truth path what t would the pros and cons be of this in your opinion???


child how were you raised if you don't mind me asking as far as religion goes????

Interesting post.


While I can't say I wouldn't raise my child in Christianity, I would certain give it the option of not being a Christian if it wanted. However, if I ever had children I must say that the most devastating thing I could ever imagine would be that they would end up not being Christian. At least they'll have good thinking skills. My children won't be introduced to the dumb machine known as TV until they are 14, at 14 I think they'd be ready to go out on their own after I have prepared them. For the first 14 years books. And I'd also have to admit that if my child were the completely opposite of me knowledge wise (ie hated to read) I would be heavily devastated.


AMEN!

Amen!


I was raised by Christian parents whom I love to death. I wasn't ever forced to go to church or forced to be a Christian, but they are such wonderful examples of Christ, so much so that I could cry thinking about it. They parent in the way I would. Minor discipline but mutual parenting. After 14, I got the right to voice my opinion in family decisions, same will go for my sister when she turns 14.

Well, I know that a girl in my daughter's class told her that she was going to Hell since she doesn't go to church. I had to explain to my daughter that church made no difference, it is what is in your heart that matters.

yes, there are alot of problems with christianity because people make bad decisions or misinterprite the bible. i agree, that the kindgom of god is in our hearts and in our minds. if church was neccary for salvation, there would have been one in the garden of eden between the tree of knowledge and the tree of life.

Every faith and everything we do and know of in life sis, ALL have their pro's and their con's, I think its best to eave it up to the kid later on to decide what to do and make of them...

After all its what i did...i weighed them both up and here i am lol

It's not hard to raise a non-believer kid in a believer family. It should be even easier in a non-believer family (unless you're a NB that's really overly hung up on the concept of religion)

I did raised an NB kid, no problem.

It's super simple actually. I'm not sure why you'd need a book to explain this concept.

True...very true Missmels LMAO

[quote name='glorybebe' date='Jun 26 2007, 04:10 PM' post='1745131']
Well, I know that a girl in my daughter's class told her that she was going to Hell since she doesn't go to church. I had to explain to my daughter that c

in a beleif system that requires no proof to except .... sort of any ole beleif goes and we hear some silly stuff too esepcailly from kids, so far my kids just come home, do not get into any debates etc. or create a issue, I do the same just try to shed an understanding on where these kids are coming from this helps alot..... ..... ..I found in the school system a system that t is supposed to be neutral asking kids to raise their hands if they go to church and questioning the ones that didnt' as to why..interesting????

I did edit my post... Sheri did indicate that this was NOT a how to book... fair enough, I'm still not understanding why you'd need a book to even cover this concept, if you're a NB or even a believer, you can raise your kids to choose what they'll be. Unless of course you want to remove that choice and ensure that they don't believe.... well then, maybe you do need a book. Dunno. I don't get it.

As a Christian that believes that faith is a personal response, I think that we shouldn't 'enforce' our views on our children. We can raise them up to be Christians, but the choice is ultimately theirs whether they want to follow Christ or not. We don't have to change our opinion of what is truth in order to be respectful and even set an example to those who don't see it our way. I believe the same could be made on the athiest. If their child so chooses to believe in a God even though they were raised not to, their parents should respect that.

A teacher that did that in WA State would be fired (or severly reprimanded). Why aren't they in California?

How we raise our children will remain private. However, I shared this once before, as I was raised in an Atheist family. When I was 4 my mom took me into their bedroom, to this huge antique tri-fold mirror that stood in the corner near the windows. She pulled back my hair and said I was old enough now to understand something very very important and she asked me to look into my eyes in my reflection there. I did and after a long moment,she said, some people will tell you there is such a thing called god. I want you to remember, when you look there, that that's where it lives. And everyone you meet, lives there too. They just think it lives in a place called heaven, but really it's right there.

And she touched the glass of that mirror, with her two fingers, right upon the eyes in my reflection. I stood there after she left the room, looking at myself for the longest time and then later that day, we went to the store, and I remembered what she said, as I was always a curious child and loved to see and meet new people. And so after she'd said that, I remember that shopping trip looking at everyone with new eyes, seeing what some called god, in them and I knew what she meant then and have never doubted it since.


I think when you raise your children you dream only the best for them. You watch them like a hawk, their pain is your pain, their joy is your joy. You'd give your life for them and want them to believe this world is beautiful and can become anything they dream, starting from right inside themselves, wanting what makes them happy and reaching out and making it so. So I remember how I was raised to think about the god factor in most of society and that's what we've taught our children, when they were old enough to understand. We have a mirror in our bedroom. Not an antique tri-fold, but a tri-fold none the less. And we showed them what my mom showed me and they know well enough because we tell them and take them to libraries and museums and we have a diverse group of friends that range anywhere from pagan to christian, that love them and are open to their questions. And we're open to them as they know. And if our children ever wanted to go to temple, or church or attend a pagan circle, that's fine with us. The more you know, the bigger your heart grows, realizing this world is full of people living their dreams and aspirations also. So it's a learning experience, our children enjoy, with our diverse friendships and their faiths. And we teach our kids that love gave life to everyone and when hate shows up, it's not them that it's pointing to, if it happens to look their way, but rather it's that loneliness inside the one that's hateful, crying for it's own loss. And they understand that, in their own child like way.

Once , our daughter said, when we were talking of such things, mommy maybe the reason they are hateful at you is because they're wanting you to fill up whats missing inside.

I get weepy thinking of that day, because her little eyes got all puppy dog like and wet just a bit and she looked so sad. But in that moment I knew yet again, what it means , truly, when it's said, out of the mouths of babes, the greatest wisdom is spoken from the innocence that knows no better, than to see the truth and give it voice.

Because it's hard to fire a teacher in Cali (at least in LA county). It's about as hard as firing a federal agent if not harder. After all, there are so many people here in Cali that teachers are a rare commodity. You can't just go about firing them.

IMO no one needs a book on how to raise kids in any form.........they should do it out of the love in their hearts and do what comes naturally to them as parents...and treat them how they love to be treated..IE listening to their kkids...if they listen..the kids may do the same and listen to them also...

I personally think it shouldn't be much different, for me at least when I stopped being religious I become a better person. Of course, I had.. "the transition" that someone raised atheist won't have, so they won't ever really have a religious mindset and it's harder to compare atheism to something.

In my opinion, that doesn't really matter though. I think it removes a negative in that the child is not going to be indoctrinated or given the black and white mentality that religion applies to the world. I wouldn't necessarily say it adds a positive, unless it inspires the child to do something for our world.

Although, I think a secular child will feel it's more acceptable to say what they think and feel, because they won't be told that they're sinning when they have natural human emotions or do natural things. If I were ever to have children, I would want to raise them in a secular environment.. It would be a much less imposing environment on the child, it would foster more communication between the parents and the child, and it would make the child less likely to turn around on their parents because there is next to nothing that makes a human being more uncomfortable than learning they have been under the influence of mind control.

I remember hearing a quote that went something like this:

"Censor your kids' ideas, censor their inspirations, and you know what? Expect a really large recurrence rate because that kid's going to turn on you and you're never going to have a part of their life again".

I never took my daughter to church--ok, I did drop her at First Day school a couple of times, she made Maccaroni pictures of her dog--my church doesn't believe in exposing children to religion until they are old enough to understand it and make their own choices. Even if they did attend services at a young age, there would be nothing to see or hear, it would just be a huge silent bore to a child.

I never told her that she was God, that there is a God, that there isn't a God, all I ever did was answer her questions when she had them as neutrally as possible, told her where she can find more opinions, and that was that. Turns out she probably has more buddhist philosophies than anything, but mostly she doesn't think about religion at all, it doesnt' concern her one whit.

i by nature explore things very deeply and UM provides a great myriad of POv, which i can share and discuss with other parents that are intereseted in this very important topic facing our kids now, it wouldnt be for everyone MW .........i am not interested in anything but embracingn diversity and honoring all paths how best to accomplish this in the most peaceful way...at my sons age its not a big concern , customarity this takes on importantce in the teen years........

Really??? I don't know MW and when i inquired i got no where.....

another thing, and this might seem silly, but waking kids up so early on the weekends when they have to all week to do something not required by law bugged me as a kid. i know i wouldnt have hated church so bad if we went at the crack of noon

LOl, I KNOW exactly how you feel. It's not fun waking up 6 days a week before 7.

Don't you have 2 older teen+ sons? This topic must have come up with them. Didn't it turn out the way you expected it would? I'm assuming it did since you seem to have no regrets about your parenting and the way you guided them.

I dunno, all I can say is that I found that it was easy to do this... I just answered questions honestly about what I believed and pointed her to other resoureces and let her make up her own mind and let her figure out how to deal that information. If she asked my opinion I gave it, while I encouraged her to ask others for their opinions too. **shrug**

Perhaps I don't understand what the issue is here at all.

thats jsut beautiful Gw your daughter is profound like her mothers(((HUGS)))....

It seems from my research that one of the key elements in creating diversity is providing an enviorment that allows for alternatives and to find the value in all paths whether its one you are walking or not....

You are so right kids are so deep anyways my son told me "mom don't worry kids do not discuss religion at our age" i agree with Geri listetning to the child is a must.......


My therapist pals all said example speaks the loudest kids pick up on our intentions real fast...
KBA your posts never cease to blow me away with there insignhts and wisdoms thankyou for sharing "son" *smiles*

it was a different world then MW other concerns differnt approach... ...I am going over the same ground again to find new wisdoms and insights ,each child is unique and i keep my guidance open to learning, intuition hindsight , new wisdom, the child how things are now. ...

I seek not impose a truth or tell what thier truth should be but how to get to their truth.....I don't know about you but we are just skimming the surface on guiding kids in humanity..... i am always learning and growing thats a given.....

Yes really. It's absolutely not allowed here and if teachers want to keep their meager paying jobs here in WA, they keep their mouth shut on this topic.

Washington is an extremely politically liberal state, California isn't. That's probably why you got next to nowhere with the school system. Of course, Im not sure why this would be a concern since you homeschool.

this is great, teens do need there rest LOL...

Watch children play and it's so easy to forget all the stress of being an adult and making their world just right for them. All those things that go into it, that their little innocence never knows about, because they're just present in the moment, exploring their world and dreaming big and finding those things we as adults take for granted.

We always listen to our children. We look them straight in the eyes. Even when they were very small, we'd come down on one knee, so we'd be right at their level, instead of having them have to crane their necks to look up at us and see us looking down on them. We'd kneel and look at them and listen to what they had to say. And touching is vital I think. Hugs and kisses, and positive reinforcement, can never be too much. We'd take their art work, from school, and hang it on the refrigerator for a week. Then we store it in memory books and put it away on the high shelf in their closets, telling them that the closet will keep their memories for later, when they grow older and forget today. They can look back and remember who they were and know how much they've grown. It's an amazing gift and tremendous responsibility, to know you are raising the future. They're going to take everything you instill, and that that others you let into their lives give them, and become all that they are going to be, carrying all those examples of what being an adult is about, with them. So we're careful and yet we're open. Because we don't want them to fear, but we also don't want them to be gullible and naive , in a world that preys on that. Especially on the net. They aren't allowed on our personal computers in our bedroom, so for various reasons of past experiences, our computers are password protected now. And the family room computer is out in the open, and is also PW protected. And loaded with child security software. And they know, they aren't allowed on it until one of us enters the PW and then are there in the room with them. Because we trust them, but we don't trust who's on the other end of the line, looking for a way in.

Yes, but you see, in California it's extremely hard to fire a teacher. Almost like firing a federal agent. My good friend is in the second highest position in the LA Unified School District. It's next to impossible to fire a teacher for posing a question to the students.

I dunno, this isn't hard... if they ask your opinion, give it to them.. then show them how and where to find out what other people's opinions are. They'll make up their minds, it's really not rocket science. Just urge them to hear and consider all sides of the coin THEN they can make up their minds, or not.

liberal isn't a issue here but our school institutions are and its no joke we have the worst education here.... many of us home school to be hope for the future for all the kids regardless, i have freinds that have to keep their kids in the school systems....

this is an understatement to say the least, teachers get away with alot here..its the tenure, so many citizens oppose this, but its not easy to change.....gosh as much money as we californian's have its embarrassing our schools are so bad and this includes the palos verdes/redondo beach area too, i came out of this system and many have opted out so money isn't better as once thought......

We don't give enough towards schooling though. I forgot you were a rich lady over there with your mansion in PV/Redondo...lol.

for the most part, our childhood is the greatest happiness we will ever experience. i find it logical that the bible says to seek god with the mind of a child and you will find them.

My mother's an Atheist, my father was raised a Catholic, my grandfather was a liberal Christian, and my grandmother was undecided. I wasn't raised to be of any religion... I found my way alone. I was able to do that because my mother encouraged every interest I had, every path I wanted to explore, and never attempted to lead me or force me in any direction.

I knew a couple who had a little boy, and they began raising him as a Christian the moment he popped out of his mother's womb. He didn't understand what Jesus was when he was 18 months old and was having his hands pushed together to pray before he got his dinner. He didn't know what the religious songs were about that he swayed left and right to as his father proclaimed that he was in Jesus' hands. I often wonder what happened to him, because he was never given a choice. His cousins were being raised by his mother's sister, but she decided not to raise them as members of any faith, and she was committed to allowing them to explore any avenue which seemed interesting to them, faith wise. Those two women were raised by the same mother, but had such different ideas about parenting.

very well said and I agree its an honor to be shaping tommorrow and i do not wing it or take it lightly, especailly as something as imperative as diversity and peace, regardless of religion...

we discuss everything and keep very abreast of the issues facing humanity and in our way try to be the difference...

i am very fortunate to be a stay at home mom to have the time to look deeply into ways to teach my kids to be a benefit to be peace and kindness especially when its the hardest....i also feel fortunate to have alot of diversity in this state so we get lots of oppourtunity to be diverse and learn of our brothers and sisters who walk many paths.....

....after I was placed with my grandparents( at 7 years old) i was raised very similar to you, lots of alternatives for exploration was encouraged and let me tell you my grandparents explored right with me, I was hoping you were gonna psot S...it wouldn't be the same without you as i have a great resepct for your wisdom and insights.....great psot my dear freind...((HUGS)))

been very blessed with good friends child, no mansions lol.....

That boggles my mind. Poor little guy. How could he find his own voice inside, when he was being trained to mimic someone else's!?

And yes, it's something to be raised in a sibling environment and end up grown and two different people. My sisters and brothers remain Atheist, they let their children learn about all faiths, and find their way, so we're very similar in those respects. However in others it's a different story. But it's all love and we learn from each other. Though sometimes at family dinners, one will say something and everyone else will look to them with one of those too familiar expressions, like: Is that you, or is it the whipped potatoes talking!?

we too are very big on honoring who we find ourselves to be, I really use great care in any kind of rote , by the book, aping that is part of telling one what they should think or who they should be based on someone else ideas of things or what their truth should be..........


it can be very difficult to change dogmatic mindsets its best not to cultivate one to begin with..would you agree my freind????..

You seriously think you're not aping psychological theories and the new age movement?

I think it can , of course. I think it would depend on how the dogma was instilled into someone and at what age the installation began. I knew someone that was raised in a very strict religious household. They were scared of god before they were even old enough to fully fathom what that meant, but their parents would tell them that god knew when a sparrow fell, the number of hairs on their head and when they were bad little boys. (sorta like Santa without the perks once a year) And this kid contained himself, and everything he did, afraid what "god" would think of him. Of course, it was to church every Sunday and Wednesday, unless he was very sick. And then it would be bible study and prayers for his getting better, because he was sick as punishment from god.

So in his case, there was no way anything short of a lightning bolt epiphany that was all serious mental whacked BS, he was being fed and tantamount to child abuse, because his folks also believed in corporal punishment. And that's why I believe it's strictly up to the individual and their sense of self and personal character as well. I think if someone feels their faith isn't working for them anymore, when they actually face that's what that disconcerted feeling really is saying, they have to let go of the fear, to acknowledge the full import of that. There's no lightning bolt going to strike them dead, as a friend of mines tape series relates, about goddess worship (she let me borrow) and one of the women said, when she first said in her home alone, I believe in the goddess, having been raised a strict catholic, she actually became afraid lightning would strike her for blasphemy. So because in many faiths there's this sense of fear related to what that little boy I knew felt. What if god gets mad?! What if it's "Wrong" to think this new way!? Etc..., that fear construct you talk about, is very real. And if someone can trust that what they feel inspiring them to look past the dogma they've been raised in, they can maybe realize that calling elsewhere is perhaps that same god they love or have trusted all those years, leading them to a new destiny.

I mean, why stay in a faith simply because one is afraid to leave it. Or even remain in it because it's family tradition!? It's all faith. Not fact. So choosing to believe something else, is just as easy as being complacent and believing what's always been, I think.

I have a simple philosophy i indoctrinate @ home with my sons and will continue to do so until they hurry up and leave home...thats use your heads(show them the difference between right and wrong) but follow your hearts at the same time. I think i's better to plant those 'seeds' of thought in their mind whilst relatively young not fill their heads with a lot of biblical religious bullsh*t that makes abSOULtely no sense in which only stands to confuse them. I was brought up the same way i think i did alright ...

I'm not taking a swipe at other peoples p/s religious beliefs or views(TETO). I'm with the TEDAIC faith myself.

I'm a born catholic and as far as i know so were the last three generations of Rebels, it's just that times change and so do we.

JMO.

John A Spera(UM)sig quotes.

What We Are Never Changes.

Who We Are Is Always Changing.

wonderful philosphy rebel thanks for sharing and I too enjoy Johns wisdom you have good taste ...*smiles*

texas teaching one to get to their truth is what I am referring to.....i gather knowledge, utilize all inherent avenues from all sources and then see what wisdoms it leads me too.....i ask why, why not i seek the next question really thats what knowledge does it leads you to the next question as I am in the state of continual growth what wisdoms apply today will change tommorow..... what is the new age movement???? what is a psychological theory anyways????