I Chronicles 20:3

Exodus 11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm

Kratos; I am not here to debate with you, I am issuing you a warning as a moderator, if you wish to participate here you are to follow the rules. The same applies to all NB and believers. The flamebaiting and personal insults have been getting out of control in the spirituality forums and have to stop immediately, the monitoring has been stepped up to get it under control. All violators will receive warnings and suspensions if necessary up to and including permanent banns from this site.

Your compliance is requested.

Irish

Kratos. You need to incriminate someone. I'm sorry I made myself your target.

Boorite.
Nihilism - consideres traditional beliefs unfounded and that life has no meaning.
atheism - belief in no God.

How do they overlap? Well the tradional western belief is in God and christ. Atheists think thats unfounded, so they are half there. The second point that was cited for the definition of nihilism was that life has no meaning. Well, have athiests come together and agreed on a meaning to life? I don't remember that. Thus athiests are nihilists, unless you can prove me wrong.

i believe that Moses warned Pharaoh of this and Pharaoh let his people suffer because he did not want to listen to Moses...by letting the Jews go Egypt would suffer because they would not have anyone to do the menial work...Pharaoh would catch a lot of flack from the land owners...kind of like the immigration issue we have now...this passage i think is that very warning....

randomhit10

The fatal flaw to your logic is that you are assuming that not believeing in God means not having a meaning in life.

If you feel that you MUST have God in order to have meaning then I feel very sorry for you

So you're going to simply ignore the facts I posted?

You're the one that came in here on the morality angle... Now you're just going to simply ignore any arguement against that and just keep on telling me I have mental problems and now I need to "incriminate someone" because I posted hard facts against your arguement?



I don't know.

What do you think created god if there is such a being?

You have taken the assumption:

It is not the case that atheists are a group who have come together and agreed on a meaning to life.

And from that you have inferred:

Atheists are a group who have come together and agreed that there is no meaning to life.

That inference is faulty. There are rules by which you might draw inferences from assumptions. What you have here is of the form:

not (A is B.);
therefore (A is C).

It is not among the valid forms.

And that's just the start of your problems.

If you can somehow link A to C, fine. But you haven't done so, and I think you know very well that all atheists are not nihilists. It is just something you like to say for some reason. Maybe you want to say to nihilists are bad, and atheists are nihilists, and therefore atheists are bad. Whatever. A false assumption makes for a false conclusion.

I would not concur the Moses myth was in any wise like unto the current issue of invasion by illegal immigrants. Moses warned Pharaoh that god would kill every first born, even in the animals of Egypt, if Pharaoh did not let the Hebrews go. However, if god can murder first born's in untold numbers, he could have easily turned the heart of one man and accomplished the mission. Rather than flex his power and destroy people, crops that would be required to sustain the population after the exodus, and the water supply which was vital to survive a desert population.

Acknowledged: the God of the Hebrew Bible often behaved exactly like what we would call a war criminal.

(Just in case our argument about Christianity led you to think I was some kind of apologist.)

boorite, a nihlist sees no purpose to life except the purpose you give it, it sees no inherent meaning to it and finds all beleifs inventions to give life meaning.....no one philosphy takes presidence over another they are all equal in being unfounded and made up......

A athiest doesn't beleive in god...neither does the buddhist etc...

"not (A is B.);
therefore (A is C).

It is not among the valid forms." -boorite

WWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW!!!!! You are soo far off the map I have no clue what you could be talking about. Are you making an attempt to do some discrete math? I really have no clue what logic you are using and I'm an engineering student at the University of California. Just answer one simple question. For atheists, what is the meaning of life? And notice I said "the" meaning of life. You can't say the meaning is whatever a person chooses, cause I'm not asking for plurality. If atheists can't define what THE meaning of life is, their philosophy is nihilistic. To tie this in with my original point, I'll claim. If atheists are nihilists they can't use logic to prove themselves, for a myriad of other reason I am tired of writing now

Well blaming god for all the bad things that happen to us in our lives isn't going to help the argument, wheather for or against. How can you say god hates us when were the ones who destroy each other. It's like saying guns kill people, but we kill people with guns. Sometimes i think, if we can get rid of our present way of thinking, one day we will know wheather there is a god or not.

Are you trying to use Syllogism, boorite?
Ok, I’ll play your game

All groups incapable of defining an objective meaning to life are nihilists.
Atheists are a group incapable of defining an objective meaning to life.
Therefore atheists are nihilists.

Hows that?

I'm not using a particular notation, if that's what you mean. ASCII won't support it.

If you have any training in formal logic at all, you'll know what I'm talking about. You don't appear to.

I'm aware that what I mapped there doesn't make sense. I (how can I put this?) stated as much. It doesn't make sense because it is an attempt to map what you said... which doesn't make sense. That is what is colloquially called the point.

So you're an engineering student at UC? Congratulations. It's irrelevant. Keep studying.

One of my wild guesses at what you were getting at had that form.



Valid. Sadly, your major premise is false at best. At worst it is unintelligible. I don't have to tell you what that means for your conclusion.

If you mean to persuade anyone that all atheists are nihilists, it's not working.

Hint: That's partly because it's not true.

I know what a nihilist is, but thanks for the info.

Can you name any religion that has defined THE meaning of life?
The huge blanks are often filled in with "God has his reasons." or "Everything is as it should be."

Nobody has truly defined THE meaning.

This may help. Though I'm at a loss for how Nihilism came into this discussion about Atheism. Atheism and Nihilism have long been associated, But there are vast differences between being a Nihilist and an Atheist. Atheism and Nihilism

why didn't Pharaoh turn his own heart?...Pharaoh's own intention was self serving....i see it as Pharaoh murdered these babies out of pride and arrogance....this was not the first warning or the first display of power for Pharaoh either....but lets look at another issue you have raised....you call Moses a myth but you rail on God about killing people in the same myth...now is this story a myth or not? if it is a myth then your arguement is "why would a mythical God kill mythical people in a mythical time led by a mythical leader"....or the story is true.

...the issue of immigration is very much alike...why do think these people come over here?...do you think they come over here not to have another job?....many of the employers here take advantage of that...they perform many jobs we are too good to do or that we charge too much to do....example: not far from where i live there is a company that pays min wage to these people...the company used to pay much more until the new work force arrived...now they have rid themselves of the higher cost employees (11.00 hr) and given these jobs out to min wage earners.... but out of the kindness of their heart and concern for the well being of the workers, the workers are allowed to work 80 hrs a week on a sliding scale o t pay...if the workers are illegal they don't complain about anything...Pharaoh is alive and well...what sweethearts.

randomhit10

Just as different people believe in different Gods/Goddesses the "meaning of life" of life has different meanings to every one.

The very question "the meaning of life" is a fundamental philosophical questionand has no answer that is valid to all walks of Belief and Non-Beliefs.....

Well, we could argue semantics if you'd like. Zeus is a myth. Would you prefer that Greek god be referred to as if he was real?! And the point is a mythological accounting is bound in a book and proffered as gods breath. As the irrefutable word of god. But it is refutable, it's full of contradictions and it was compiled by men. So, if one wishes to believe god spoke and men copied, then why would men edit and remove books and scriptures at will, and then call it the Holy Bible, "Version" of King James!? I'd imagine it likened unto blasphemy, for sin filled mortals to receive dictation from god and then declare, through their sin filled intellect, what was and was not able to be said to the masses.

So lets continue, shall we!?

Why didn't Pharaoh turn his own heart? Why did god allow his chosen people to be enslaved in the first place!?

Does one imagine a man that enslaves people to be the labor force of Egypt, would have a change of heart, if he saw fit to enslave human beings in the first place!? God sent Moses to free the Hebrews because they were in bondage to Pharaoh. So clearly that was an issue for god, else it wouldn't be one if Pharaoh could turn his own heart and let the people go. So since god saw a problem in Egypt, and sent Moses to sort it out, it was incumbent on god to change things, because that was his intention in sending Moses to do his bidding. So rather than slaughter life, in a battle between the gods. (That of himself and the Egyptians pantheon) , why didn't he show the Egyptian people and Pharaoh, that he was a superior god to their own, by being benevolent, rather than proving he could kill people by his will!? Had he simply turned the Pharaohs heart, he would have emancipated his chosen people and established his benevolence in the mind and heart of the Egyptians, because they would have been left with a Pharaoh that was now kind and loving, thanks to that god, and their crops they slaved to create so as to sustain the population , would have been left in tact, and their water supply would not have been fouled. And of course their first born children and those of every creature in Egypt, would have been left alive. All making a disastrous exodus for those left behind, after the Hebrews were free. Making the new god more powerful than the Egyptian one's, and imparting he was more vicious as well.

Hi there, first off I thought I should say, no, not all Atheists are nihilists. Second off, if some dude named Descartes comes to me saying "All Atheists are nihilists" I will say "who the hell are you to determine that?" To make such a blanket statement is to say "I have met all Atheists and each one is a Nihilist." Sorry kiddo, but no tamale. Citing philosophers means nothing because they are mere men. Philosophy is the art of thinking (pretty much), and famous philosophers are just men who's thoughts intrigued us. However, even if a philosopher were to make such a foolish statement as "All Atheists are nihilists", it would still be just an opinion.

My husband is an atheist. His philosophy is based from aspects of humanism, where universal edicts regulate right and wrong. He does not agree with the Nihilistic philosophy, particularly those aspects that Nietzsche spoke of. I was also a regular member at IIDB, which is an atheist website. I highly suggest speaking with the people there to find out what atheists do and don't believe. I fellowshipped with them for over three years.

Secondly, individuals find different meanings for life, irrespective of religion. Ask any two Christians what the meaning of life is, for example, and you will get two different answers. And hence why there are so many denominations in the various world faiths: individual perspective. So the brush of inconsistent agreement on the meaning of life tars not just atheists, but all of us...should you choose to follow that logic.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


It's like I said before, but they failed to notice.....just because I'm an atheist, doesn't mean that I don't see meaning in my life.

Such thoughts are born of not being able to "walk in another person's shoes." For some religious people, believing in God is like breathing. It is unthinkable to imagine a life without God in it. Therefore the assumption is that someone without religious belief is cold, incapable of empathy and basically devoid of the essence that makes us human.

Atheists are no different from any other group I've ever fellowshipped with. They disagree amongst themselves on what the definition of atheism is and what philosophies it entails. There are strong and weak atheists, agnostics, and a multitude of of other schools of thought.

What is problematic is that people fail to recognize that one of the most discriminated groups are atheists. Which is why they "stay in the closet" even more than homosexuals out of fear of persecution. This is a sad state of affairs.

Indeed. It's sad that so much hate is cast in the direction of atheists, and with little or no punishment.

If you come out as an athiest even in America you risk your career, well being, future jobs, community status and more.

Boorite.

It's inane to just refute something, beacause you don't agree. There have been definitions provided. I have used those. I have used one of the oldest forms of logic to prove my point. Your answer is still "Triplehelix is wrong". You say my education is lacking, but do you have one? Can you show how my major premise is false? It's hard to have a discussion with a refute-bot. You are impervious to logic, reason, definitions, references to reputable philosophers. Your notation and method is incomprehensible. This discussion is infantile. I tried my best to keep it legit, but discussion takes two active participants.

end point: Christians have an obvious meaning to life, that is to obey God. Do atheists have one? It doesn't matter whether a certain athiest defines a meaning to their certain life. When we speak of "The meaning of life" it is assumed it transends the subjective whim if the individual. Atheists as a group haven't defined what "the meaning of life" is for an athiest, so they are nihilists. It doesn't even take a Ph.d in logic or philosophy to understand this. Try to think up a better reply than "triple helix is absolutly infinitly plus one wrong, because he is a doo-doo head".

Fear! Of all the religions in the world, each subscribe a cause and effect for all that exists, to an anthropomorphic being. Some invisible presence that cares about the human condition it caused to come into being and effects, in every aspect of it's living, to the day we die. And then, many of those faiths believe that not only was it requisite to live by a prescribed set of rules, so as to please and placate that being so described, but that those living behaviors are later judged after life. So as to determine the destiny of souls, at that beings discretion.

Atheists accept none of that as truth. They live their lives, independent of the fear constructs many religions impart, as a means of controlling the human will, to contain itself according to the man made tenets of a religious ideology that claims it exclusively knows what that being approves and disapproves, for one and all. Many Atheists I've spoken with, and I myself, recognize we are responsible for our choices. It is us that choose to be a person of character or not. It is us, that are responsible for our behaviors. No devils tempt, no saviors save us from ourselves, or damn us for our actions. We choose to be a good person, or an evil sod. There is nothing that hears our prayers, there is nothing that cares especially about us, over all else in existence. This life is our only now, and when it's over it's over. And if it's not, and that's a certainty, one thing is absolutely true. No one alive will ever learn that from any one of us, that are dead and happen to find that out.

Atheists are persecuted because they are the revolutionaries of any age, that holds faith in something besides one's self, first. As that moral compass for personal character and social interaction. We do not follow, we can never be called a sheep in need of a savior Shepherd. We do not believe in hell, heaven, or the myth of sin that makes all of humanity that does believe in it, in deficit from the moment they accept on faith they are capable of being made as sin by anything they accept on faith, is a perfect creator. All religion is faith. Atheism holds no faith there is no god. It is simply impossible not to believe in something that does not exist. And it's that affirmation that makes some of those that choose to believe differently, angry and afraid. As if our knowing there is no thing to bow to , is something that is worthy of contempt and abuse. When that behavior against us, by those that claim to believe in a heavenly judge, give that being accorded the faith of that authority, much to judge them for.

Christians make the meaning in their life to believe that a certain book is the word of God, and obey it.

Again, nobody has defined THE meaning.

(aimed at the artical posted )

What evidence can one find if its a FAITH?? there is no real evidence to find, if there were any, then it wouldn't be classed as a 'Faith' now would it??

Yes, and the form was valid. But you should know that if a premise is false, then you get a false conclusion. You proceed from a false premise. Everyone here is trying to tell you that. You're trying to tell us that if you don't believe in God then you don't believe in anything. It's just not true.



No, just about that thing.



That's false. I said your being an engineering student at UC was irrelevant. Pay attention.

Do I have an education? It's irrelevant. But yeah, I've got more degrees than I can use. Want one? Send me postage and it's yours.



Yes, at best. The difficulty is that it may not be intelligible. Others have already informed you on both counts. Your readers know the premise is false, and they know why. They don't need some egghead to elaborate the point in school language. This should tell you something. (What it should tell you is that your argument won't float. Abandon it and make another one.)



We should ask some Christians if they're unanimous on that meaning of life. I'm not willing to assume it.




Yes, many do.



Well, there's your problem! It most certainly does matter. Read carefully now: If a certain atheist defines a meaning to his certain life, then he is not a nihilist. You said all atheists are nihilists. That cannot be true if that "certain atheist" is not a nihilist. So yes, it pretty much matters as much as it can possibly matter.




Irrelevant. A nihilist is someone who refuses to believe in anything, not someone who belongs to a group that fails to define what the meaning of life is for them. Your definition of nihilist is erroneous, not to mention absurd. Think. By your definition, all Republicans are nihilists, because as a group, they have failed to define "the meaning of life." Ridiculous.

I would also doubt that Christians are unanimous on that issue, or have decided it "as a group." If not, then even Christians are nihilists by your definition.

Let it go. It's hopeless. Some atheists believe in something, simple as that.

I find your remarks very insulting, you have a brass neck to accuse them of being NIHILISTS..............yet you are the SAME person to rant at others calling them bigots ect...try practicing what you preach for a change
Millions of Atheist lead a strong, happy, loving and caring life...one that they love so much.........live and let live...

I don't believe in God either and think it's just a man made idea that there has to be more to life...why should there be more? We are born, we live, we die, the end. We are just an animal on a planet living a life. Why should there be some ulterior motive to our existance like some sort of meaning? So horses have a meaning? dogs, cats? flies? worms? any animal? What is this meaning we are suppose to have and why would we when we are just here living our life spans and then dying at the end of them? Why all the mystery and meaning? I think it's just a humans mind conjuring up some reason for us to be here when we are here because we evolved and are an animal on the planets surface living for a certain period that our bodies can manage, no more, no less.

I completely agree. I'd just like to point out on a side note, that even I have to back that statement. There are many "religions" that sport an atheistic approach. Wicca, for example. There are atheist denominations of it. There are some Wiccans that do not believe in the Goddess, or any God for that matter. They do believe in the forces of nature, the magics of energy, etc. They believe this as an energy source seperate and its own, to be respected and utilized, though not worshipped, as they do not see it as "The Goddess" but rather, simply "The Earth."

And it's not the only one, there are many (for the lack of a better term) "practices" done all the time with an atheistic approach. With all due respect, it would be ignorant for anyone to say that ALL atheists are nihilists. Just IMO.

Just as EVERY religion has.....to obey their version of a deity.
Christians are not unique in any way, shape, or form.



I have been often described as an Atheists (I call myself a NB) so I ask this.....Why do Atheists need a "meaning to life"?

Is not living life to it's fullest enough meaning enough?


I think the last question of mine might be a good answer.

Is not living life to it's fullest enough meaning enough?



Your words..........

*Puts Atheist label back on for a moment*

Some of us even work at a Christian based Ministry......hows that for meaning of life?

*Removes Atheist label*

Almost forgot Hi BM

Ive always thought I believe when I see.! I truely go buy "you might learn something from the bible". But theres so much more to worrie about than worshiping.

Hi Zannie...and pstt triplehelix is no longer here anymore