I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word ''elephant'' includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.

But, this ''This I Believe'' thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, ''This I believe: I believe there is no God.''

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

More of the article here... Link

---------------------------------------------------
A really awesome article by Penn Jillette the magician.

With all his mad magic skills he could have shown up jesus' act 2000 years ago and then have his own religion.

great!....That is just as true as if there is no God then humans have no purpose in life because we are just an accident!....And to create purpose for your life and believe it is just as equivalent to believing in a creator!.....well done!

Magnificent! I love this and admire him so much for his insight and relating from his point of view, what may be said by and for, many Atheists just like him. Stellar! Truly, stellar!

You see, tolerance would permit a man, sharing his personal life, the right to speak without being called a name that's used to object to his right to speak, what he chooses to live.

Many messages in this article. Thanks Kratos for the read. I especially like this: Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future. Beautiful! And truly, "Amen!"









“I'm not an athiest. How can you not believe in something that doesn't exist? That's way too convoluted for me.” A. Whitney Brown

I've posted that story about 20 times on UM. LOL

I've been thinking about this myself a lot lately. Why would a god allow such torture and inhumane treatment throughout the world, especially of innocent children? Why not just open the heavens and say,"STOP!" If that happened I think everyone would throw down their weapons or other instruments of torture and, at least, think twice about what they were about to do. Why does god seem to only be able to communicate with a few weirdos and expect the rest of the world to believe/follow them? Why doesn't god equip our anatomy with some sort of shock collar that would prevent us from doing harm to others? I always hear that if someone harms us in some way, that they'll eventually get their due, but if and when they do, I doubt they think to themselves, "Oh, I shouldn't have done that to so and so. That's why this has happened to me."

Unfortunately, most religious people think they can do as they please and come Sat. or Sun. they can ask for forgiveness, and all is forgiven, then they go out and continue with their bad behavour the rest of the week.

I agree with you. Maybe if everyone stopped blaming their bad behavour on some devil and took responsibility for their actions and spent their time loving others, there would be no reason to worship some VOID that is apparently not interested in our welfare.

Interesting concept.
I believe in God, and always will, but interesting.
I love atheists because I hate crowded places.

I would agree. Did you listen to Penn read this article in the Audio link?! I enjoy his comedy and he's very intelligent, so his thoughts on many subjects are worth the read. http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Penn_Jillette-m...=b-authorsearch

Great read im a big fan of Penn (and Teller) as well as the show Bullsh!t

If God did all the things in your "Why doesn't God do..." questions, than you would have no choice, no freedom. You would live under his reign totally and completely and may not have chosen it. The choice we are given is great because it allows for personal development and search/finding of God. If God put a shock collar on us, or wrote in the sky, than everyone would be the same, and do the same things, and believe the same thing. There would be no individuality, there would be just this boring place. After a while you would ask questions like "Why doesn't God let me do what I want?" or "Who says I have to do what God says all the time?" or "Why are we forced to listen to this being?" Is it God's job to play cleanup whenever we get into our problems. You say that the world would be a better place is people took responsibility for their actions, but how is asking God to make you stop taking responsibility? It isn't responsibility, instead it's saying "God I'm out of control and can't do anything without your help. I can't be good of my own nature, so please make me stop, and make the people around me stop because we can't handle it." The purpose of our ability to choose is so that we of our own strength, empowered by Christ can become better people. When one chooses to follow Christ they are choosing to be purified. They are saying "God I need help cause I'm jacked up." and are then changing their lives for the better. It isn't about blaming the Devil, it's about recognizing that you are under the control of sin, and turning away from it, following Christ, eating of the Bread of Life, and sharing eternity with the King.

Yes, I can.



Yes.



Still no elephant.



Impossible.



OK. Still no elephant.



Well there's your problem.

"With all his mad magic skills he could have shown up jesus' act 2000 years ago and then have his own religion EL OH EL"

Absolute garbage

Knowing Penn & Teller's humor, they'd consider that a win! Believing even then, they still have a fan. I love them, they're a riot and their show "Bullsh!t" is a riot.

Did anyone see when they hit the Boy Scouts, for installing prejudice values into their creed?! They featured one Eagle Scout that was very proud of the bigotry the Scouts installed into him, throughout his many years of membership in the group. So, at the end of the show, when the credits are rolling, there's this video , clearly shot from across the street of a busy intersection in NYC. There's the proud Eagle Scout, standing beside a very old and obviously frail woman, with a cane. The pedestrian light changes, everyone steps off the curb to proceed across the street, and the Scout bounds right off, leaving the little frail woman to try and make her first step off the curb, which I never saw her do while the tape rolled. So much for the Boy Scout Creed relating a Scout is always helpful and courteous. But holding prejudice in their heart for gays and Atheists.... Love that show.


*edit link fix*

You really think so? Of all the people then claiming to be talking to god and pulling off fancy magic tricks to fool their followers... You think jesus was any different because he's more well known?

I don't know... I think Penn's tricks are better then turning wine into water, walking on water or such. Criss Angel mindfreak does it almost daily... Should we worship him?

Actually, in the time jesus is alleged to have existed there were numerous self-professed messiahs. The water/ wine event was a well known ruse used by many charlatans of the day, as a means to make money in a very poor economy, if one wasn't of the elite in Palestine, or Rome, for that matter. (And for the record Rome was not tolerant of those that took such advantage)
How to turn water into wine.


Further reading: False Prophets and Messiahs in History

Sometimes Penn is cool. Sometimes he's a big, stupid blowhard. He manufactures high-quality entertainment, but as a serious thinker, he's strictly bush-league. And he will tell you this himself, which is admirable.

I've heard he's said that. However, he makes some very salient points. And as he's one of the main contributors to their show, Bullsh!t, I think he has a great insight into the human condition. And while he may have finished High School on a Plea Bargain, as he puts it, and may be bush league as a serious thinker, he's no dummy. And I think that he keeps things very direct and cuts through the bullsh!t, to get to the heart of many issues he addresses on his show, he proves it in spades. Blowhard, sure why not!? Stupid!?Not a chance.

yes not beleiving in god means i am responsible for my life and its up to me to get in there and do what needs to be done, not beleiving in god frees me up to make of my life what i choose....to live in gratitude for my life and use it to represent my understanding of divinity..... my life lived is the process i would label god....

Indeed. We make this life the mythological heavens or hells. Not believing in god, as Penn said, frees some invisible imagined being from the responsibility of all of us saying, why is god letting this happen?! Why doesn't he hear our prayers? What did we do to deserve this!? So that we actively involve ourself in answering those prayers. And I know, I could never accept there is such a thing as sin. Because that makes this whole world dark and less than perfect, and damned, just for being itself. And for the believer, that means exactly as god made it to be. So I could never accept a concept that declares I am made imperfect, by something that is perfect, because I'm made to be me. It makes no sense to me and if I believed in the possibility of a deity, I think I could accept Deism has a clue. Because that notion of higher power doesn't discredit creator, as of a consciousness that condemns it's creation, for making them all that they are, from it's powers.

So as an Atheist, I'm free. Free of the weight of feeling like a sinner in need of redemption for the curse my father laid on me. Free to answer others prayers, when they hope for food, and I work the shelter kitchens and help feed them. When they pray for blankets in the winter cold, I stop my car and give them those I have in the back, that I don't use anymore, because we emptied our closets of the old and gave what is new to someone that's homeless.

When my mom told me that day, looking in that tri-fold mirrors glass, that what some people call god, is looking back at me, I believed she knew what she was talking about, because my mother is a good woman. And now that I'm grown, with children of my own and a mirror where I have shown each one of them, that same truth , I know that I am creator of my own part in this living. I choose to be who I am, and do what I do, from where I live, right here inside me. And because I love me and want only the best for me, I can only want the best for the world around me, because I live here. I am the temple, that houses that spirit some call god. I'm living proof of creation. And so is everyone else. Imagine the possibilities!

If people actually did believe the kingdom of heaven is within. Would heaven ever be able to choose to create a hell on Earth?!

Not at all. Believing that an invisible skyfather created your purpose before you were born, is vastly different from creating your own purpose while alive.

What I do is my purpose (usually.)

Then again MadMan , it could be said that , for some, it's an impossibility to not believe in something, besides themselves. So when an Atheist says, I serve my own purpose in this life, it can become frightening for others to even consider the possibility that self, is paramount for some people. No prayer, no bowing or supplicating of ones self to an invisible promise something else cares. No self-deprecating ideologies to make one feel sin filled and outside of the grace of an invisible judge that made it all possible they're not worthy, etc...

Atheism, it may be observed from this personal living experience of it, is a tremendous independence from fear and intimidating mythologies, that attempt to rule who I am by telling me I first have to accept all that I am is less than perfect, as I am. And because I love me tremendously and with good reason, because I'm a great person, I don't see the need to feel I must please anything anthropomorphic mythology, to be the best I can be, because I know I'm worth only the best and as such, want to live in a world that is befitting that sense of love and peace I have , knowing myself so well. So I bring love and peace with me, because that's who I am, and in doing so that purpose in my life is fulfilled. Making other people happy and at peace as well. When you love yourself, I think you can only want to keep that happiness alive inside, and as such that effects those you meet because they feel that coming from you. And it makes the world a better place, starting right at my feet, and everywhere I go.

Because this is my home and I can do nothing less. And I don't need to believe in a temperamental vicious ideology, that dares to claim it owns god exclusively, to feel satisfied and fulfilled, because that's not what I get from those myths and so I don't accept them as true, for my life. But I am happy with who I am, and so I am my own religion and my own goddess. And the world is my blessing in that respect, and it is mine. And that makes for a wonderful promise in a life long relationship, I think.

GW: I'm just paraphrasing here, but I think I read somewhere in a certain fun holy book something a long the lines of -
"Everyone is perfect down to every last flaw." Wording may look a little contradictory, but I probably got it from the Principia or something.
I think it's true enough though.

Indeed, people who are truly satisfied with themselves give off pleasant vibes.

"you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car" -Kratos

Kratos have you studied Logic? Please leave Logic out of your beliefs, especially if you have no grasp of that subject. If there is no God, then there is nothing beyond subjective experience, then there is no absolute right/wrong or true/false, then trying to use logic to prove something is vain, because it can be equally logical or illogical for the next person. Nihilists can't prove anything. Believing that there is no God makes you a nihilist. I must sound like a broken record, but it seems basic philosophy/logic has been taken out of the public school system.

V
Nihilism:

Non-religious moral values are based primarily on creating a peaceful environment to promote survival of species, or so I've roughly gathered.

And most non-believers don't view existence as "Useless."
No matter what you say, not all disbelievers in a God are nihilists.

"not all disbelievers in a God are nihilists" -mad machine

Well Descartes would disagree with you, as would I. If you want, I'll walk over to the library and get a quote from him that proves atheist are nihilists. Will you write me a proof that atheists aren't necessarily nihilists? Or cite a reputable philosopher?

From your definition "a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded", this isn't the P.O.V being espoused here? The definitions of Nihilists and Atheists, you must admit, have much in common.

I'd appreciate that quote whenever you have time.
-
If one is to assume that a God created the laws of the universe, then how is one to assume that God came into existence?

Edit:
Atheists believe in no god, Nihilists believe in no thing.
Other than that, how similar they are depends on which Nihilst and Atheist you look at.

Tradition isn't always right.

That proof doesn't address people and their beliefs about God and nihilism. I think when the definition mentions meaning. It means objective meaning. You could say that the meaning of life is to buy a cool car, but I believe when the definition of nihilism mentions meaning it refers to meaning that exists outside a persons whim.

You're probably correct in that last line of text. Maybe Atheists and Nihilists are closer than I think, but what if one is to believe that humans themselves are gods?

Also:

I ask a lot of questions, but it's the only way I can learn.

"how is one to assume that God came into existence?" -mad machine

well, I believe the dogma is that God exists eternaly, so it isn't believed that he came into existance. I am not a theologian. I'm am intimate with the philosopohy of logic and science. I feel uncomfortable answering questions which are outside this domain.

Humans are Gods? Believe what you want, but logic and science are inventions of man which have very definite limits, which should be made known.

Everything coming from nothing is about equal in logic to a sentient, super-powerful being existing eternally and creating everything.
That's what I believe anyway. I had a hard time choosing one, and I may have found a middle-ground in Chaos.

That doesn't necessarily make me a nihilist though... My personality isn't that grim, is it?

Edit:
I never said humans were Gods. But hey, we created logic and science. Why not? xD

What I REALLY don't understand is why 'god' has to be a 'person'. Why do we give 'him' a soul and human characteristics like we have? Ok, so the bible says we were created in the image of 'god'. Well, is that to be taken literally, or 'souly'? Who translated the bible and what 'purpose' did they have? THE TRANSLATORS are the ones in power - not what supposedly the bible says. And why do we make 'god' a 'him'? Why not a he/she? Or more directly, an 'it'? If humans are all equal in the eyes of god, then why is it we were make 'god' a 'him'? I'm not a 'him' so does that make me less of a human because I am a 'she'? And once again, WHO translated these so-called words of the bible? WHERE is the original? Did one EVER exist or was it some individual/group idea to control their particular 'group'? "HEY! LOOK!! GOD TOLD ME THIS AND YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO WHAT I SAY OR ELSE YOU WILL END UP IN HELL!!!" I am a SHOW ME person. WHERE is this so-called original bible? And why, if it exists, is it not being RETRANSLATED by objective parties? OBVIOUSLY the 'bible' was created by humans - not 'god' - because 'god' in this bible are given human characteristics - anger, revenge, etc which are ALL human qualities and which some are NOT favorable at that. So how can this human god be considered perfect if he has human flaws and human traits? Supposedly 'god' is said to never send another flood - did he learn HIS lesson? So how does that make him perfect? He shouldn't have ANY lessons to learn! I also do not believe in this god that MAN has created. I believe in a Higher Consciousness - or what I choose to call Cosmic Consciousness. 'It' has NO human traits - 'It' just is. We are all attached to 'It' by our souls - whatever that may be as I do not understand yet. That's why I'm here - again. To learn lessons that I still need to learn until I reach the Highest Consciousness which will take me from being an 'individual' to one WITH the Higher Consciousness. We are ALL able to tap into the Higher Consciousness for information. It is our human side that keeps us from believing this and utilizing this - because we are trapped in these organized religion concepts. Ones that were written LONG, LONG ago! They do NOT fit the times now so I don't understand how intelligent humans living in the age we do still fall back on these ideas/concepts that were written in the past. Why do we still want to believe in this 'human created god'? Egotism. Makes one feel good to say you were created in the image of a god... This is exactly why we find ourselves BACK here on earth. I have been reincarnated at least 3 times that I am aware of (in this lifetime). 3 past lives are vividly stamped into my brain - maybe for the purpose of not making those same mistakes this time? Life has MANY more questions than answers and as I go thru this lifetime I am not all that worried about having to reveal those questions. I am more focused on learning the things that I failed to learn in my past lives so that I can become one with 'God' - the Higher Consciousness - the One that has NO human traits, characteristics or flaws because 'It' is NOT an image of man. Man is flawed. 'God' cannot have made man in 'Its' image because that highest level of consciousness is WAY above anything mere man can conceive. Who are we to say that we are created in the image of 'god'? Obviously a HUMAN concept - egotists that we are....

*Edit for spelling/grammer

Not all atheists are nihilists. Not by a long shot.

It may be true in some sense that all nihilists are atheists.

To my knowledge, the only way to think that all atheists are nihilists is by a grave error in logic or a fundamental misunderstanding of the terms.

The only question is why Penn has this need to keep beating this horse? Ok so you're an atheist. Is this much different than any religious zealot constantly pounding away at us about why he believes? I like Penn.... I like him alot.... but let's move on already.

First, I didn't write that... It's from the article. Though it makes the point that you cannot prove god and since you're the one making the claims, you're expected to provide evidence.

You can't prove anything... And there are natural morals that pre-date any kind of religion. I mean... What's the christian religion morals.... Raping women... Murdering babies... Slaughtering millions... Enslaving your fellow man... Discrimination based on sexuality and gender... (all items done by or told by god) Oh yeah... Clearly you're are morally higher on the charts because you support those items Sick is what it is.

There is truths though... Facts that we base on our own doings. There is no need for a god to grant us that.

I mean... Are you such a horrible person that you need a god from going out and killing someone?

Because human beings anthropomorphize. Human beings are keen social thinkers. Our brains are wired excellently for understanding other humans and their relationships to one another, and our experience as social creatures hones that native ability to a high degree. Cognitively speaking, it is probably humanity's first and finest tool. And what do we do when we get a handy tool? Well, when you have a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. By analogy, we're good at social reasoning, and so we tend to apply it to every problem.

Thus the storm clouds look angry, and the sun smiles upon us, and winter is a miserly old man. Are those characterizations true or false? Neither, or both. Rather, they are no more true or false than any metaphor-- particularly, any personification.

Why do we personify God? Because it is a human way of understanding something.



Not everyone regards God as exclusively male. But I think you've raised interesting questions with complicated answers. I'm satisfied to think of "God" as a He, She, or It, depending on the circumstance and always with the realization that the reference to gender (male, female, or neuter) is only necessary to me because of my incapacity to understand this "God" directly. As you say, we only project human qualities such as gender onto the Almighty because of our own limitations, and we shouldn't confuse that with the notion that It really possesses those qualities.

Then again, in a sense, God does possess those qualities. That is, the thing I think I'm referring to when I say "God" must possess all qualities that can exist. So it is not completely wrong to temporarily regard God as male, female, or neuter for a certain purpose.

You have issues Kratos, serious issues. I hate to play your shrink, but it's kinda glaring. Are you mad at the world and blame God for everything that you percieve as wrong with it? I think the dogma is that God never said life was easy or fair. The reality of suffering doesn't disprove God.

Can you show me where nihilism and atheisism diverge Boorite?

My goodness what large font you have grandma! You have 3 posts to your credit. What would you know about anything here 'constantly pounding away" ?

It's said that anything God does to us, he does to Himself.



I'm no more inclined to show you how nihilism and atheism are different than to show you how any two divergent points of view are different. I assume we can all use reference sources. I refer you to any standard definition of the terms.

Penn Jillette creates illusions.

randomhit10

And?

and what?

randomhit10

Excuse me...a lot of people are like Fluffybunny and I, lurking in the background for some time, checking out the environment, before we decided to participate.

I tend to agree with jk, nobody likes to be told the same thing over and over again even using different issues to pound their beliefs in other peoples heads.

My first thought whan I saw this thread was, "Yeah...okay, I think we got that a loooong time ago."

I don't believe in god so how can I be mad at god? As for my list of morality of christians... It's all in the bible Just because life isn't fair doesn't mean those items are moral or good in any fashion.

What happened to your rant about morality now? Guess that all went out the window with the whole baby killer worshipping?

And aside from all of us being well aware of that, for the most part, what does your observation about his creating illusions have to do with his observations of his personal Atheism? Your comment , besides speaking the obvious, otherwise seemed rather vague, relative to commentary on the topic itself.

Comments such as that is considered flame baiting.
Please always respect the beliefs of other members. The bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed. A lot of the topics in this section cover some sensitive areas and it is important to respect other people's views. This means no flaming, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks.

I think that this thread is a perfect example of why I tend to dislike these religious "zealists".

All that was posted was an article about one man's position on his atheist beleifs. And I agree......with God out of the picutre, you are living in the now, by morals which you beleive are good, not by what is written in a book, and said to be ultimate truth.

Even following this post (one which is in no way rude or discriminating against Christianity) we get peopel coming in here with a certain malice, right away saying that these atheist beliefs are so flawed, and going even further as to call into question the mental state of someone (Kratos) whom brings up a valid point.

If Christianity was followed as Jesus intended, we'd be much better off. That is, living by the morals he set......do good for your fellow man, treat them as you wish to be treated. What we have now is an "idol worship" of sorts; worshiping God and Jesus as the be all end all, not even considering that there are other belief systems, others which may or may not be correct, as much as Christianity.

It's this blind faith and lack of reason which is the root of the conflict.

I hate to double post, but Irish, your post brings up an issue:


Why is it (in my view of these boards anyway), that it is ok for an atheist to be flame baited, even outright disrespect, by some of a religion, but yet if the opposite occurs, a warning such as yours is posted?


Oh, and I don't mean any disrespect to you by posting this......I'm just looking for an answer.

what if he is working an illusion just to make your money disapper out of your pocket and reapper in his?....is that a little closer?....

randomhit10

Sure, if you think so.

Sorry forgot to list the baby killing verse from the bible so people wouldn't get confused...

2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

Read the full chapter here!
------

The lord killed an innocent baby according to belief... People worship the lord... Kind of goes hand in hand there.

why thank you..(i ran over to the wall and put a big "one" on it)...and then it hit me......you gave in way too easy...so what's up?

randomhit10