Sometimes I think the state of Grace is one of the most misunderstood aspects of the story of Christ. Regardless if you "believe" or accept the story as true there is something very compelling about the story of Christ's sacrifice which is why I think his story is so motivating to so many people. Many great people in the world like Mother Theresa or Dr Martin Luther King Jr. have lived in Christ's example and in doing so represented what we all wish we could be.

Grace is not a matter of "blood sacrifice" or of "dying on the cross" in my opinion. At least that's not how I see it. Grace is a matter of courage and love.


There are many arguments thrown up to negate the impact of Jesus dying on the cross in the manner that he did. "What kind of sacrifice was it really if he knew he was going to rise again three days later" "What kind of God demands a blood sacrifice" etc.


And while these are valid questions I think they focus on the literal and physical aspects of the Crucifixion rather than the spiritual meaning. (Hello Mel Gibson yes, I'm talking to you)

To me, Grace has always been the one thing that I snatched up from my days as a believer, and wouldn't let go of. Its why I believed in prayer, and faith even as I rejected those things in my own life.

To me Grace is like an old western cowboy, its a code of honor that once accepted by a believer, becomes part of the way that one should live. One should live in a state of courage and love.

Sometimes it takes the most courage just to realize that one can love in such a beautiful way.


I think the world would get a long a lot better if people focused on grace. Does anyone else here know what I mean?

Excellent post, True! I pretty much believe the exact same thing--but you stated it much better than I could. People do get rapped up in the little things and seem to miss the Big Picture. I'm so glad you found it!

Beautiful OP, Truethat.

"Grace has been defined as the outward expression of the inward harmony of the soul." ~ William Hazlitt

Yes, I think that is exactly why the character used to show what a state of grace is, one who had courage and love for others, was a non-hebrew unbelieving Samaritan.

Oh wow that is such a perfect quote!

Even though Jesus knew he would rise again, he also knew that he still has to go through the agony of the flesh -- he was also human with a body, after all. Theory is NEVER the same as actual experience, NEVER. So, this is to show his humanity, his connection to the living. He was one of us, not a robot. It is why we feel his agony. We have this mystical connection with him because it is real, in-yer-face, gushing blood and all. We all know what it's like to bleed, and usually, it is not a pleasant feeling. And Jesus' version is to the psychological extreme. I forgot the name of the artist, but in his painting, he showed the guards (the ones castigating Jesus) dumbfounded by the whole thing, how Jesus was able to transcend his agony without any retaliation. It was a very powerful painting, no doubt.



A logical One, at least this particular Divinity, God the Almighty.

Jesus was made an example to basically show to the world and its unbelievers that the body is not it, that there is an afterlife with God (and God is still alive and well and is still with us), that the human body is transitory. And Jesus was mentally ready to meet this challenge, even if he had that moment of doubt on the cross ("My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?")..., but in the end Jesus surrendered to God's Will.

I have no doubt that God revealed Jesus' godhead in the Garden of Gethsemane; nevertheless, he will still feel the suffering of the flesh, regardless of his god-hood, since he's still in the flesh. Theory is not the same as reality, unfortunately. Living on Earth has a way of distorting one's personal views and facts because it is its nature. It is the polishing effect of living.

Jesus played his role well, down to the last detail. When he prayed to God at that last moment, he did it with gusto so that people around will hear him, to basically show that he's human like them, but yet, transcending this physical limitation and becoming one with God. And this ABSOLUTELY shows hope for everyone, that one day, we will all become one with God after our sojourn in our flesh.

This is part of the story I absolutely believe, and this is partly why I'm a Christian again. Historical details could easily be obscured, but nevertheless, Christianity is THE most powerful force in the world today, and this is a MAJOR sign from God, if all else fails. And true power just doesn't come by accident. Just simply look at the places occupied by the Christian 'flag,' they are the best locations in the world, are they not, with lots of greenery, sandy beaches, NOT scorching-hot desert -- okay???

Grace offers us the freedom to accomplish without trepidation of reprisal or motivation of reward. It inspires and nurtures the natural goodness within every heart to truly just give off yourself. An ability to do what is right without the fear of being wrong.

Irish

I agree Irish. That's how I see it. Although it often seems hard to do in a world of cynicism.

And I thought I would never learn anything new here at UM. My apology to everyone. This is beautiful.

One is blessed, indeed, with this in one's heart and mind.

“Like any other gift, the gift of grace can be yours only if you'll reach out and take it. Maybe being able to reach out and take it is a gift too.”

Such eloquent speakers in this thread. I can't imagine why it was rated so poorly; then again that really doesn't matter.

I don't believe I've ever experienced grace, although I'd like to think so. My love and ambition may be strong, but my courage is weak; I am easily a push over at times.

I find it odd that this thread has 2 stars as well Empress. Its just another example of the way cynical people don't believe in Grace.

And thats only because I rated it a 5. It was 1 before I gave it a rating

Weird analogy, but have you ever seen the movie Contact starring Jody Foster? (spoiler ahead for those of you who haven't seen it yet) When she was traveling in the wormhole and the pod abruptly stopped. She saw the star Vega, and beautiful coloured clouds of dust like the hubble captures. She was so speechless by the awe and beauty she gasped "No words...no words." while tears ran down her face.

That is my idea of what grace is. Something so beautiful words can not describe the feeling.

Interesting analogy Empress it made me think of how they put the chair in the pod instead of just trusting the instructions and when the chair finally snaps you realize it was what was making it such a difficult journey

What man had put into it instead of just listening and doing what it said.

I agree with much of what you posted here, but my anal research mind has to bring up the point that the biblical term grace has a semantic definiton that is a bit contrary to love and courage which are outstanding attributes and that I wish I had more of in all manner of equality.

Great post, true!

Yes, I think Christians forget that the message of Christ's sacrifice and resurrection is Grace. There are different rituals we add to the process of salvation, so we can in some way "insure" that those whose hearts have surrendered to the Grace of God will "know" that it "took."

But really there is NOTHING we do or can do to be saved, it is all God's work. But yet we end up focusing so much on the acts, the prayers, AND the horrible beating and crucifixion that we forget that all of it, what we do, and what was done to Jesus were all just shadows of the spiritual reality of Grace.

what a beautiful thread True! I am most of the time too lazy to add comments to any thread but this one touched a cord. For me grace is a very deep sense of inner peace, a spiritual calm & stillness,a moment of communion , touching the heart of god. Grace puts all things in perspective, one cannot , & would not, feel the need to hate another, fear, be furious, seek revenge, be selfish, when in that place. Too much dogmatic theology, rites & rituals can cover the true meaning of grace:the peace of God.

As for the question some raise "what kind of God demands blood sacrifice", my husband told me about his great grandfather who was a judge. The law ,at the time, decreed that poaching was a punishable crime, but at the same time his great grandfather could not ignore the justice of the poacher's need to feed his family, so he obeyed the law & fined them, but paid the fine himself out of his pocket.

I love that grandfather

That would be the biblical definition of Grace in a simple analogy.

Sometimes we only have Gods Grace in our lives as the only thing we can count on, when life is kicking us down and we don't see any way out I remember this, and can survive yet another day. That is how his grace gets me through difficult times, one step at a time knowing He loves me.

I find myself singing "Amazing Grace" quite often...

"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.

T'was Grace that taught...
my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear...
the hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares...
we have already come.
T'was Grace that brought us safe thus far...
and Grace will lead us home.

When we've been here ten thousand years...
bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise...
then when we've first begun.

I love you people. We should stop all the fighting and just get to gether and love each other. I really love you all

In the end, the answer is yes. We will all face the inevitable "Thy will be done," through God's grace, and the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our salvation.

But at this very moment, how many of us are really ready to follow this "Thy will be done," down to the last detail? While we are on this Earth (and in most cases), we still have wants, and certain desires are still ingrained in us. Therefore, prayers are necessary to fulfill our wants and desires and for smooth roads ahead.

Prayer is for the living!

The Calvary is the promise of hope and freedom for many people, that there is something lasting and profound (above and beyond the sufferings we endure on Earth). Therefore, it is only good to meditate on this (Calvary) once in a while. No doubt, it could keep one on a spiritual, noble, devout, right-minded path, especially if one is guided by the Holy Spirit, and one tries to maintain an open heart...

TGIF, I shall return..., Sunday.

The time when I really had a glimpse of that peace was when my world was tumbling down all around me & even on top of my head. I had unexpectedly lost my husband, my soul 'twin', my child was going 'nuts' on me, the finances were in the doldrums & there were additional disputes , and I was alone far from my family & friends. People sometimes think that i was courageous etc, I wasn't, "but for the grace of god..." is not a cliché for me. Things now got much better ( but i still miss my hubby) and at the end my child has settled down, & I do not hate those who gave me a very hard hard time. The one who gave me the worst problems is becoming a friend now! "Thy will be done" was said first in fear & desperation, like when Job said will he take only the good but not the bad from god's hand; then later in trust that ultimately I am not alone no matter how rough the road. There is a verse in Isaiah where ( paraphrasing, lazy, my bible is upstairs) god said "I love you" I have carved you on the palm of my hand.. a mother could forget her new born, but I will not forget you". The 'you' here is all people, everyone, if only we stop kicking & struggling & be quiet for a while & let that peace & calm in. Then comes the real prayer, the peace, the communion , it might not "smooth the way" & solve all problems, but it smoothed & soothed me "but for the grace of God".. Jor-el, I love amazing grace, try listening to it on a full moon night , in a prairie covered with thick snow...

I've cried many tears singing that song, you know. When I was a seminary, I would sneak out in the middle of the night and climb a hill that was close by. It would take me an hour or so to get up there. I would cry and sing and just pour my heart out to God, those were difficult times. There were even a few occasions of shouting in anger and frustration to him. But in the end I would come down with a renewed sense of purpose and hope that things would turn out ok.

I wish you could have seen those sunrises... breathtaking!!!

There are two pieces of music I cannot hear without shedding tears, TAPS, and Amazing Grace.

One (TAPS) because it is the mournful sound of men of honor bidding their final respects to a fallen comrade.

The other because it is the hopeful musings of one who has finally grasped the loving hand that has always been held out in front of him.

Amazing grace was part of the funeral service for my husband . It helped me vocalize meaning in my husband's life & death. Christmas 2002, the first without my husband, was exceptionally cold,the full moon lit the whole area, & snow hushed all sound. I put a disc sung by Jessye Norman & I could only repeat you broke my heart. I still cant listen to it with dry eyes, but now I see the quality of life my husband had, & see that he truly lived in grace, and I'm grateful.

I wish I could have seen the sunrises.

I think of Grace as being like the state of God's love(the silence)which can only be achieved when you love the same as Him. So I think living in Grace can be fleeting in this world because of the constant perception of sin.. although I do believe it can happen.. I just think we get moments of Grace.. and its the practise of keeping it which is worth learning. But I believe to really aquire a state of Grace you must give it to everyone, and not seperate anybody. So when you see everyone as the same(with the same love),then you are in a state of Grace. And who would be left to disturb it.. So I believe you fall from that state of Grace when you perceive sin more in another instead of Him,.. to the point where you turn away from Him. So I believe you dont take Grace.. you must give it to receive it.

But I agree, I think the world would get along better if they focued more on Grace.

wonderful thread, as a NB iI live in grace and gratitude , each moment is a gift i therefore honor all moments and all encounters and my life is full of moments i call grace which bring me to great clarity, great wisdom , great love, great understanding and great insight that is brought to me through me.i begin each day by being grateful for all that i have been and all that i will be and dreaming of what i can still become and that anything is possible..... I see myself as truly the light of my world and in my heart i live this, i am the savior i have waited for and all moments are gifts to honor this truth i have found within..., I use the tools i have available to me in this world , because with these tools i can make statements of who i am and in that i walk in grace and am truly blessed. and am a blessing....

Amazing Grace was played at both of my parent's funerals, and my fiance's. A powerful song.

I've never been able to understand what Grace is exactly. When I think of it, I think of it as opening a door to a higher spiritual connection with God. If it's what I (think) it is, once you walk back out that door to not believing-- The memory of that grace is what you have left. Not sure if it's right, but I've often thought about the relationship between Grace's impact on a person, and the extent of their faith.

I LOVE YOU I feel like WOW..someone FINALLY gets it!!!!!!

wow what inspiring posts. I love most that shy posters took the time to share. Thank you all and have blessed day. Perhaps you'd like to share your stories of Grace. I love the grandfather story. Lets share more shall we!

Wow this must be a first for UM actual profound spirituality within the spirituality forums, strange days indeed! Nice going Truethat, I hope it continues.
Grace is the warm blanket on a cold night within its confines even the bitter cold loses its bite and the frost in the air becomes a chandelier of diamonds.

Peace Irish

I was at my mother's side when she died with breast cancer. I held her hand thru her last moments. I was prepared for it.
Not quite two weeks later, I walked in to find my father dead in his bed (unexpectedly) with a heart attack. That almost destroyed me.
BUT, then, my support system went too. My fiance had been sent to Afghanistan six months previously to my mother's death, and he was killed couple of months after my father died. So, (sigh), I was lost and I didn't know how to put myself together, nor could I find it in me to do it.. My kids suffered right along with me. I was lost, and I couldn't find my way out of pain, I couldn't find that escape.. I tried, I really tried.
I remember laying in bed at night crying, and begging God to put me out of my misery-

I realized I had no one left, but my kids, and they depended on me, Sunni! I felt to weak to carry my kids and find my way too. too weak.

My friends, they couldn't deal with me so they left me alone, but, I don't blame them, I couldn't deal with me either.

I found myself going back to the men of the bible over and over, believe it or not. There was something there for ME to SEE, I just couldn't get it....& Finally,
To every prophet and their struggles, addictions, problems, battles. It dawned on me that every single one went thru their own hell. In their very own way. To each they were on their own. It dawned on me, the better you fight the battle, the quicker you get out of your own hell. It's how well you fight in that battle. I could lay there and wither away, slowly die from grief, it was completely up to me. Only me.
I think that is when I saw the "light" the first time in a long time, and it led me out of that pain, my hell. It was a slow process, but it consistently led me in the right direction. I said, my experience would make me, or brake me!

It didn't just make me, I believe it made me better. Why? because I have learned from it, and I have taken that experience with me forever. It goes with me where I go. I was able to get over something very painful, difficult using my grace, when everything, and everyone else failed me, I think it was Grace that saved me.

Amazing post Sunni, truly inspirational as you always are!

Wonderful thread. Let's keep it going.

Miracles will happen hun...wait and see.

Kazahel, you are right . Grace is a state of God's love, but for me, I did not experience it because I loved like Him. It was the other way round. I had no merit, no special ability, I did not earn it. I did not feel it because of the goodness of my heart. I think we are freely given the gift of God's love & his reassurance in those times when we are crushed & need Him the most. When He talked I just listened. I think it is Grace that opens our hearts & stretches our ability to love & forgive. I forgave & withstood my problems only after feeling for those moments a love so profound & so freely given, that fears and problems were no longer as overwhelming as they were before. I could not hate those who were pushing me down because their motives no longer seemed "evil". It was like taking a giant step to the back, & things fell in perspective & no longer seemed terrifying.I only wish I could keep it longer but pressures & distractions of everyday life can deafen our ears. Those who maintain the intensity of the gift of Grace all the time are saints. Have you noticed how JPII always seemed to draw the affection of young people? They somehow feel it. For the rest of us, we have not "fallen from Grace", it is always there just like the One who gave it. Once experienced, one can never really remain the same, even if we are sometimes distracted & not listening.

Sunni I send you a big hug. I can feel the pain that you experienced & admire your courage & determination.

Great post tetisheri

I think that trying to maintain a state of Grace opens up a world of love to people and gives them the ability to keep maintaining it.

Sometimes I think that people forget that Christ is also there to take your burden when you are overwhelmed by your capacity to love and need someone to hold you through the opening of your heart to another soul.

He's not just there for the bad things.

O' I agree True. Simply put to hand it over... let God take the wheel, so to speak. It's easier said than done, for most people that's for sure.
There is something still about being spiritually connected, in a very personal way with God through Grace. The way I see it, Grace is that connection, the tool that is used to connect. The stronger the Grace, the more powerful the connection. I can't seem to explain it, but I can see in my mind's eye.

& Teti, Thank You for the <hugs>
You say something that makes me think of this from ( Dante's Inferno, I believe). Something about We can be tormented by demons in our lives.. but it's what light we see these demons that depends on our freedom from them. Do we see them as demons there to torment us, or do we see them as angels who are there to set us free from those demons... it's how we see it, how we think of it, & using Grace.

Wow, Sunni. That was amazing. I believe that the struggles we go through are our "school" here on Earth, to strengthen our soul and prepare us for what's beyond. I think you're ahead of the class. God bless!

I was going to share my thoughts here, but Kaz...you have expressed my sentiments exactly.

Sonni, you are an amazing woman, and I am blessed beyond measure to know you.

Tetisheri, I was deeply moved by your testimony. We share a lot in common. Thank you for opening your heart with us.



Truethat, you are a woman of great courage, and I really admire you for that. Your children are beyond blessed to have you as their mother.

i agree sunni, just feeling this connection, knowing it lives in you is grace < i couldn't of transcended the painful moments in my life if it wasn't for grace (my sisters murder, my parents etc.)...i feel regardless of path grace is an integral part of all of us and ilife has many moments when this clarity and great understanding and unconditional love flows through us..it has many times for me and my hubby many people i know of many paths the path interestingly doesn't seem to matter.... ...therein to me lies the wisdom of grace.........wonderful read and posts my freind as always very inspirational...

I cry as I read these wonderful stories and how people have overcome tremendous situations through GRACE.

Bless all of you and thank you so much for sharing. One day I will share my experiences with you but it's too soon for me.

One last thing to add: Sunni you are a beautiful and courageous woman. Sending love your way.

She-ra

O' my goodness!
Howdy doo, Thank you for your kind words-

Inner Space, I think you're as wonderful as they come.

Sheri, I know you are aware of that pain of loss, the one of grievance & suffering. Thanks for everything.. :}

She-ra, Thank you for your words too... whenever you feel it's right time, just share with us- Thanks for listening.

<HUGS> to all of you--

Several of you have shared very wonderful stories about how grace has gotten you through some very difficult and painful times in your life, thank you for sharing such personal accounts. They truly show the wonder of grace.

But I think just as the role of grace in helping us cope with difficult times is, I think the most impressive thing about grace is that it not only helps us deal with the difficulties of life, but that if we let it, grace will allow us to use what we learn by coping with these situations to help someone else deal with similar ones.

Absolutely Son.

Beautifully said Son.

"No greater burden can be borne by an individual than to know no one cares or understands.” ~Arthur H. Stainback







Sonni, you always bring a smile to my face. Thank you.

Yes, I agree, and God also instilled these hopes and dreams in our system, I truly believe. The Lord also wants us to celebrate and be thankful, in spite of all the sufferings we all went through.

I feel for you, Sunni. I went through similar events in my life.

Peace to you, always.