Everyone's talking about free will. Apparently, God loves your free will. He gave that ever-so-important trait to Adam and Eve.. and ever since he just can't bring himself to step on anyone's free will. That's why God will let you murder someone. That's why God will let you demean and torment someone. In fact, god will let you torture and kill millions of people if you like. And hey, he'll even let you do it in his name. Of course, if you do those things, you're no longer a real Christian or a real Muslim etc.. but, God won't be satisfied with a bunch of robots running around the planet.. no, no, that won't work. Because god loves you, and he wants you to have free will. He's not like us pesky humans who would.. try to stop a murder if we knew it was happening, no, that wouldn't be according to his plan.

So, any believers want to explain to me why God places one person's free will above other peoples' lives and free will? (Can't really make any decisions once you're dead, and you don't freely choose to be murdered.) Does he just not place any value on human life, and that's why he lets millions of people die by the hands of his worshipers? I've yet to see a good answer to this problem.

..Of course, there's the alternative option, that there's no god there to save us from ourselves. But that's just my personal opinion.

I would tend to agree with the latter. There is no god. Otherwise, if there were he'd be a rather indifferent power, that creates sinful beings and then allows them free will to dig themselves deeper, without interceding at all, to the prayers that beg salvation from the free will that is effected by the vicious depraved evils that plague fellow human beings, because they can. And then, when it's all said and done, the offenders and the victims but dust and souls awaiting judgment, they're assessed for how they handled what befell them in life. Because their good works did not assure them heaven, it says so in the book. Instead it is gods grace only by which they are allowed into paradise. But if grace were part of god, would sin be his curse!?

The bible is replete with violence inspired at the lords bidding. Even in the new testament. But that's not acceptable, it's not true christianity when some take those admonitions and put them into effect. Hoping that will gain them gods grace, when it's all said and done. The bible can never say what it says on the page, because that is simply to much to read. Instead it's a matter of context and discretion that proclaims the bible doesn't really say what it says, when the faith writes itself every day, from the page. And those calling themselves christ like actually believe there's only one way to define what a christian is. Just like it's believed there's only one way to know the power that made everything that exists. Maybe one way thinking is easiest for some. It precludes thinking past those lines that divide a global population, as one holds faith, hope, that god is as prejudice as they are. How tragic, for us all if that truly is a higher power.

Why does God place more importance on free will than on life?

I don't think He does, we may see it that way because to us this part of our lives, these 5, 20, 50, 80, 100 years that we have here is all the life we have, but He knows it's just the beginning of an eternal life, and so the lessons we learn during this time, especially the one about being responsible for our actions (which comes with free will) are the important part of this portion of our lives, and of course, to those who decide this life is all the life they want, then it would seem that God would put greater importance on free will than life.

Yeah, well some of us think murder is a bad thing, not the start of an eternal paradise.

I still think it's sad that anyone can justify a god who considers one person's free will above another's well-being and free will. The least God could do you'd think is prevent things like torture. But I guess suffering is just not of much concern so long as we all have the ability to choose to make someone suffer or not . God doesn't even stop people from removing other peoples' free will.

The concept of "free will" to me has more to do with the question "You don't really know yourself, do you?" which carries a definate nuance meaning of INCOMPLETION.
Knowing was not limited to the sense of "learning", but is a deep "gnosis" that comprises all kinds of experience, including an understanding of "purpose". So for this and other reasons I feel that hunches about "the necessity of completion" are probably accurate and not another manifestation of spiritual wish-fulfillment fantasies.

In a sense, I guess you could say, I'm something of a "completion incarnation", since I "returned" because of a "lacking" or "incompletion".
This was my "free will"
But this would be true of all of us in some sense.

Blessings

hmm free will at this time in human evolution free will is barely understood or implemented... at best one has a choice which is predetermrined one is bascailly choosing from that wihich has already been set...so if i may, how does this translate into free will.....most notably there is no free will in a diety that has requirements and needs of any kind.... Free will is not possible under these conditions..actaully its an oxymoron....

leave it to the fine mind of Turtle to come in with this unique and interesting POV.... makes ya think ...

I think all of us think murder is a bad thing. But if God were to interfere that would also interfere with your free will wouldn't it, since then you would be forced to acknowledge God.

Think I'd rather be forced to acknowledge God, and subsequently live longer and end up in heaven, than not be forced to acknowledge God's existence, then get murdered and end up in hell.

Oh, by the way.. it's not removing your free will. If I have a curtain and I tell you a magical survey is behind it and you should take the survey some day, but you don't believe me.. so I remove the curtain, am I forcing you to fill out the magical survey?

Isn't that what christians want??

From what I've learned on these forums, the notion of free will isn't even biblical. It's a doctrine created to answer sceptical questions.

Of course, who wants to actually be held responsible for their actions/decisions. Unfortunately, God wants yo to be an actual adult and be responsible.


It's not the same thing by far.


No, it isn't.

Umm so you are saying from what I have read here -- christian dont want people to acknowledge God? thats weird...too weird...I thought the whole point in spreading the word of God was to get others to acknowledge God.

I believe more along the lines of this world is not really our home... so any 'death' is only perceived on this level.. the material... I cant word it well but to me its more like this world is the world which is not forever, which means all death is irrelevent in time to God because death is almost of an ego thing.. imo.. Like the ego will die in death but not the Holy Spirit. So I dont think God knows mans ego(because He doesnt have an ego imo), which is why some ego's take other ego's away in 'death', so God only recognises the Holy Spirit in man and not his ego.. which is why it might seem unfair when some people die and other people live. Or something like that... imo.


I thought He wanted us to become more child like.. "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

But I must admit I dont know much of the bible.. and I might of taken that out of context.. but anyway.

very interesting kaz....I have always taken that to mean one would be free of constructs and reconcieved ideas one would come to the moment pure and without thoughts one must be out of his mind to come to his senses and in many ways it echos enlightenment one knows they are not their thoughts ..thoughts are tools and kids know this only to well....... to many define themselves by their beleifs and thoughts this has nothing to do with who they really are though ..... ... if you have spent alot of time with kids you will hear the most amazing things...

Yes, BM, it is, but it's supposed to be a move based on faith. If God revealed Himself so completely by stopping all people from making decisions to kill or torture or speed or smoke or whatever that nobody needed faith in order to know God, then the ability to choose would be gone.

That's very true. There is not one verse in the Bible that says God wants you to have or doesn't want to trample on your free will. In fact, in the Bible, God tramples on plenty of peoples' free will "to choose him or not". He caries Enoch and Elijah off to heaven, removing their free will to stay on the earth. he kills people, removing their free will to acknowledge him or not, etc. The free-will argument is taught nowhere in the Bible. The only basis for it is that he gave Adam and Eve the ability to choose to sin. But the Bible NEVER mentions him not revealing himself in order to give people the freedom to believe or not believe.



And not believing in a mythical creature with no more evidence than any other God or even any other myth is something I should be held responsible for, as if it's some crime?



It is very much the same thing. Belief is different than acting on belief. Just because you know something exists does not force you to act in one way or another regarding it.



There are plenty of Christians that want to force you to believe, actually.



Some people die horrible deaths. Terrible agonizing slow painful deaths. A lot of those deaths in history have been thanks to God's esteemed followers. Do you think it's right of God to just let them suffer for no reason? Maybe you can justify the death part, but what about God allowing deaths like these to take place?



Iams, I'll ask again.. what is so special about faith? Muslims have faith too, but it doesn't sound like God is going to be so nice to them for that. It's an impossible problem, because God expects you to choose the right religion, yet he won't tell you which is the right religion and doesn't want to give you any proof of which one is. That's basically just asking for people to choose wrongly and go to hell.

I see this entire matter as one of understanding consequences, maybe even of evolution. If God were to intervene every single time someone were in a painful situation or every time someone else was encroaching on their basic human rights, then no one would ever be hurt by the actions of others. No one would be murdered, no one would be raped, probably no one would even cheat on their spouse. Because whenever someone decided that they were going to do this, God would intervene. Humanity would have no idea what murder was (since it had never been done). Humanity would have no idea about the consequences of torture (no one would be tortured). No one would be aware of the basic human rights of others (because every time someone were to encroach on them, God stopped them). In a word, humanity would be living in ABJECT IGNORANCE.

We as human beings would have no concept of hurting our fellow man, no concept of what is moral, because these experiences have been denied to us by God. Humanity would not have developed as it had, the species would be different. Human evolution would have taken a different path by the intervention of a God hoping to spare us from mortal pain and suffering. God allows these experiences for us to grow and learn and largely prepare us for what is important in life. If God stopped pain before we ever felt it, how would we know what joy is? What is joy if we do not know pain to counteract it?

And so God allows us on our merry way, because God has a larger picture than us humans - what good is it for our mortal lives to be perfect and free of pain if our immortal selves are dying?

In the end, we could argue this matter forever. We have a different outlook - I'm looking at the picture of eternity. You, who does not believe in eternity, argues purely from a finite human perspective. Not that there's anything wrong with that perspective, but for those that believe in a God, there is more to life than..... well, this life.

Regards, PA

You don't have a concept of being completely out of your mind and terrified every waking second of your every day.. would you want to? There are more horrible things that could happen to us that we don't have a concept of. That doesn't mean it would be good if they happened to us. Humans are going to take good things for granted, whether bad things happen to them or horrible things do. I don't understand why the idea of a world that knew no murder, rape, torture, etc.. would be a negative thing? If you're going to jump back to Adam and Eve, then God was just irresponsible for putting the tree there knowing they'd choose it. You can't give someone a fair choice between two things when they don't understand what they'd be choosing, especially if you allow them to be coaxed into the choice.

Part of ones faith is to acknowledge God IAMS..thats the whole point in holding a faith

To acknowledge is to admit you know of God..you are aware of his existance....thats the whole main point in having faith IAMS after all you acknowledge there is a saviour, you admit that Jesus exists...you have acknowledged he died for sins....thats called having full faith IAMS

I think you mean something else though...I think you meant..that if God was to interfere and made man all of a sudden stop hating and killing...then people would know for REAL there is a God..and feel it for real...and thats not what God wants, he wants us to hold a faith...to choose what we see fit.........no point in that if God were to revel himself...<--I think you were meaning this...lol

All faith is is wishfull thinking. And if a god does exist, then by it standing back and letting murder happen etc then it really is a vindictive entity, creates man and then spectates as they kill each other, and people worship it.

Nothing to do with wishing........get it right before you try and debate it

I dont WISH there is a God.......I just believe there is...bit of a difference between believing and wishing ak wishful thinking

But for anyonethat hasnt a clue what faith is..they will call it wishful thinking lol typical..dont surprize me

I don't believe there anyone who hasn't doubted what they believe just for a second, I know if there was absolutely 0 sign of a god i'd doubt my faith if I had one, so carrying on with your belief is wishfull thinking, you hope that living a life of faith will have the ending you want, i.e a heaven. You have no reason to believe, but a hope that it is true.

Gee what does it take to get you to understand that there is a difference between a wish and hope??

Yes i hope there is a God thats why i stick to believing in God.............I dont wish there is one.a faith dont work like that LMAO

Everyone that follows God (any god) live in HOPE..NOT wishful thinking

However some christian dont think they hope for a God to be true...but in reality everyone does that follows God

Religious beliefs is what one takes what they want to follow and stick to.......nothing to do with making wishes

At the moment I am reading up on Pagan/wicca beliefs there is a lot of wishing in there.......but seems to be very interesting

Yes, that's what I meant.

Happy Birthday, btw!

So young children are not experiencing joy? Children who've no understanding of the horrors men inflict upon their fellow men... they aren't really happy because they haven't experienced anything bad? And would I become more joyous the more horror I was exposd to. If I were to see my family murdered, my cousin raped, my home burned to the ground, would I then be better able to feel joy? There doesn't need to be pain for their to be joy. Children demonstrate that fact every day of the week. And it used to be the case that women and children were sheltered from such things in well off families to enable them to live without being touched by the horror that man is capable of conjuring up, so some benefit was once seen in living a life free from such awareness obviously.

From my perspective, the idea that god allows us to experience pain in order to know joy, etc., is just a way to compensate for a god who could intervene - as he didn't mind doing so in the past - but no longer seems inclined to. It's all part of his plan. It's all for the best in the best of all possible worlds. I feel a "Candide" moment coming on here.

The biblical god didn't grant his creation free will anyway, so when man suffers it is because god wants him to. When he kills he is behaving just as he should, because if each of us is a little jigsaw piece which fits into god's large puzzle then we're all a certain shape deliberately. It's all as it should be. People kill and are killed because the biblical god made it so.

*snatches balloons* *YOINK* LOL aww thank you IAMS...yea to be 33 23 again...oh such Joy

Becky gave me something for my birthday...a nasty cold...how wonderful..lol

Gary got me dvd box set & for some mad reason, he went to Debenhams dept store, and went to one of my fav cosmetic counters..and splashed out big bucks on Lancome anti-ageing creams & face masks...is that trying to tell me something?? I love Lancome..but blimey whats with the anti-ageing treatments?? and he has booked a table for tonight...what am I gonna do with this cold..BAH !!!!


On topic though...YA I thought thats what you were tryingto say LOL...I nearly died off when I 1st read your previous post..i was like EH?? then it hit me lol

As I said, KBA, we have different outlooks. You don't believe in eternity, I do. I look at this matter from an eternal perspective. You do not. I see that these often less than 80 years of life is only a drop in the ocean to eternity. You see these often less than 80 years as all there is.

So Shadow, you seem so intent on showing why the Bible-God would be so mean as to allow his creation to suffer. What reason does your Deist leanings provide to this answer? Why does your creator not intervene either? I'm not attacking, just seeking clarification

Regards, PA

Its her belief..and her God is the same God in heaven as you worship..only difference is...he dont wear the christian name tag...its how one see's or views God PA...a belief and just like you, she has a right to it

^Hi BM. I'm not disputing Shadow's right to hold her belief. I'm not saying she is wrong for holding it, and I wasn't telling her to follow my God instead. I simply wanted her opinion of her view of God and why her God does not intervene either, considering she was so happy to mention that my comment was to "compensate" for not understanding why God does not intervene. It was a simple question, that is all

Regards, PA

"It is inadequate to say merely that knowledge or experience of suffering is requirement for us to enter heaven as a justification of why suffering exists. God can give us innate knowledge of evil, rather than let us experience it directly, and if babies or the unborn go to heaven then is clear that experience of the suffering of life is not actually required, after all. If angels or god exist in heaven then it shows that it is possible for beings to be in heaven without first experiencing suffering. The experience theodicy does not work."

"Experience of Evil theodicy" by Vexen 2003 Apr 29

Exactly. There are a lot of "Processes" like this, that are absolutely unnecessary. God killed his son so we could be forgiven. Why couldn't he just forgive us without a flesh sacrifice? God made humans so they could join him in heaven. Why couldn't he just create them in heaven in the first place? God didn't want us to be tempted by evil. Why did he simply not create evil?

The reason you have those things is because if the Bible truly portrayed a Godly character, it would be too boring. All it would need to simply say is: "God willed this, so it happened." It wouldn't have any story line.