From reading another thread the other day...I noticed IAMS make a point, where he explained how God doesn't want to interfere with what goes on, because if he did, then people would REALLY know for sure, God exists. So over all what IAMS was trying to say was - God wants us to chose for ourselves, to make up our own minds as we see fit, and then decide if we believe and have faith God exists or not
IAMS made sense when he said this, because it explains as to WHY people do all sorts of things, good or bad, it's all about making choices...therefore God will NOT interfere and send REAL EVIDENCE that he really does exist, cuz that would only defeat the purpose of your own freedom of choice
SO, I was thinking of this..........
MOSES & the Pharaoh
The story of how Moses wanted the pharaoh to set his people free, and the pharaoh was not going to give in to Moses and his demands.
To cut a long story short, God did (according to the bible)...in fact interfere, by showing real evidence he was for real, and does exist.
Here's how... - When the Pharaoh refused to set the people free, it was Moses that told the Pharaoh, that if he does not set his people free, that God will send 10 plagues. (you all know how it goes lol)
Now that is real evidence...I mean if you were in the shoes of the Pharaoh, and seen the nasty work of all 10 plagues..then is not a coincidence (or ten) ...not that no way...that sh*t is something else...and does spell evidence of God...Moses told him that God will send the plagues..if the pharoah didnt set the people free...pity 1st born innocent babies had to suffer but still evidence of God
So...why do you think God interfered back then?? Why did he send plague like he told mosses he would do...knowing that once these plagues happened just as God said..then that itself is real evidence that God exists...so again WHY did he chose to interfere?? if he wanted anyone to use the freedom of their minds, to judge for themselves..then why interfere?
And to further my question...how come he only interfered with them...why or were was he, when others throughout have been held prisoner and tortured to death by ie - terrorists...how come he didnt interfere to help these people??
its something I can't understand, so wondered if anyone else can?
IAMS made sense when he says that God doesnt interfere for the reasons to give use a right to chose and make use of the freedom we have in our minds................but that bible story dont make sense nor does it connect with what IAMS has said
This may seem to be a tough one...but hey it gets you thinking...
Hope no one see's this as me being too negative..im just posting up something that boggles the mind..wondering if anyone has any feedback
thanks
Full Version: Does God want us to KNOW he really exists?
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 3 2007, 02:00 PM) 
So...why do you think God interfered back then?? Why did he send plague like he told mosses he would do...knowing that once these plagues happened just as God said..then that itself is real evidence that God exists...so again WHY did he chose to interfere?? if he wanted anyone to use the freedom of their minds, to judge for themselves..then why interfere?
And to further my question...how come he only interfered with them...why or were was he, when others throughout have been held prisoner and tortured to death by ie - terrorists...how come he didnt interfere to help these people??
its something I can't understand, so wondered if anyone else can?
And to further my question...how come he only interfered with them...why or were was he, when others throughout have been held prisoner and tortured to death by ie - terrorists...how come he didnt interfere to help these people??
its something I can't understand, so wondered if anyone else can?
Well the Bible says that the difference between OT times and NT times is the coming of the Savior. To be very, very brief, God has maintained a relationship with us at all times. In OT times, it was directly; i.e. He walked in the garden with the first people, He spoke audibly to many, etc...
When Jesus came to earth and died, He became the One that God has his relationship with us, THROUGH. We call people who make the choice to actively participate in this relationship with God through Jesus Christ, Christians.
I think as we (collectively as humans, in the beginning and on through OT times) exhibited more and more defiance of His rules, and more and more disrespect for His authority, and more and more confidence that we would find all the answers for ourselves with our sciences and our knowledge and didn't need Him; He simply allowed us to fully live out our desired seperation from Him. Kind of like when as parents we say at a certain point in our childrens' defiance, "OK, well you're going to have to make your own mistakes and I'm not going to save you this time, I tried and tried to tell you what would happen if you did that but you know better.. so go on ahead, I'm going to allow you to fall on your face because you are struggling against me so defiantly and are so positive you know better than I do."
We became, in our defiance, so positive we knew all the answers and didn't need Him for anything, He chose to stop telling us what to do all the time because we didn't listen anyway, and He knew our hearts were (and still are) geared toward doing whatever we want with no rules or restrictions. So, He gave a way for everyone who seeks Him to find Him, and He made it optional. Why would He make all of us be with Him, if we don't want to? He's giving us what we want, and allowing us to experience what it is like to not have Him.
I think if we had never rebelled, if we had not said to ourselves that His rules are oppressive and we would defy them and make our own way, we would be experiencing being peaceful. But because we each choose in our hearts to be chaotic and turn from Him, we are experiencing a world full of chaos.
I think it is impossibly gracious that He gives us the chance to be with Him if that's what we want. And he doesn't make it impossible by saying we have to be perfect or do perfect things. We just have to acknowledge that we need Him.
I can only interject a very small thing here....going to the point about "put yourself in Pharoh's" shoes from the OP. Moses's curse coming true (10 plagues) doesn't HAVE to mean there is a God. Pharoh would think Moses did it with magic.
Otherwise....carry on.... Atheist Mule doesn't belong in this thread, just wanted to point out a possible thought process....
Otherwise....carry on.... Atheist Mule doesn't belong in this thread, just wanted to point out a possible thought process....
Very nice post heather!
I believe that what we see in the Bible is God showing that despite the different approaches He has taken with Man, from walking alongside him in the Garden of Eden, to talking to him, to removing Himself from such a personal stance and taking more of a BIG God stance causing a worldwide flood, bringing confusion by causing different languages (Tower of Babel), to causing plagues and walking with His people as a tower of smoke or fire, to being a presence in the inner most part of the Temple, to taking life as a man, to being directly available as a Spirit indwelling man, Man will invariably seek to do his own thing, will find a way to ignore or discount God, will attempt to exert his will over God's will and then will blame God for the result... just like Adam blamed God when he disobeyed in the Garden of Eden, "The woman YOU gave me..."
I believe that what we see in the Bible is God showing that despite the different approaches He has taken with Man, from walking alongside him in the Garden of Eden, to talking to him, to removing Himself from such a personal stance and taking more of a BIG God stance causing a worldwide flood, bringing confusion by causing different languages (Tower of Babel), to causing plagues and walking with His people as a tower of smoke or fire, to being a presence in the inner most part of the Temple, to taking life as a man, to being directly available as a Spirit indwelling man, Man will invariably seek to do his own thing, will find a way to ignore or discount God, will attempt to exert his will over God's will and then will blame God for the result... just like Adam blamed God when he disobeyed in the Garden of Eden, "The woman YOU gave me..."
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 3 2007, 07:00 AM)
And to further my question...how come he only interfered with them...why or were was he, when others throughout have been held prisoner and tortured to death by ie - terrorists...how come he didnt interfere to help these people??
its something I can't understand, so wondered if anyone else can?
its something I can't understand, so wondered if anyone else can?
It is my belief that when you believe first, you will know later. In that time, most of the Israelis believed in God. That's why with the burning bush God was like "...the cries of my people..." and so with the believe first know later logic, they already believed in Him, and the evidence wouldn't change anything. Part of faith is trusting. If you believe because God has done some miraculous feat than you have very very weak faith. However, if you believe and trust in Him, before you know, when the real evidence comes it won't change anything it will just make you happier. Of course I also believe that blind faith is stupid faith, and I believe there are ways to KNOW of God before actually having faith in him.
There is not a shred of evidence that the Jews were held in mass captivity in Egypt and then escaped under the leadership of Moses, only to wander about for 40 years.
Not a shred. Nothing in archaeology. Nothing in the written records of Egypt. Lots of people in whose interest it was to find something have looked. They have found nothing.
But yes, God does want us to know that he exists.
That's why he makes statues of the virgin weep, burns the face of Jesus into slices of toast and tells the US president to go to war.
QUOTE(Vacamion @ Jul 3 2007, 06:15 PM)
There is not a shred of evidence that the Jews were held in mass captivity in Egypt and then escaped under the leadership of Moses, only to wander about for 40 years.
Not a shred. Nothing in archaeology. Nothing in the written records of Egypt. Lots of people in whose interest it was to find something have looked. They have found nothing.
But yes, God does want us to know that he exists.
That's why he makes statues of the virgin weep, burns the face of Jesus into slices of toast and tells the US president to go to war.
Not a shred. Nothing in archaeology. Nothing in the written records of Egypt. Lots of people in whose interest it was to find something have looked. They have found nothing.
But yes, God does want us to know that he exists.
That's why he makes statues of the virgin weep, burns the face of Jesus into slices of toast and tells the US president to go to war.
Right on !!!
So true
Aahhh...god is such a loving god isn't he.? If my children disobey I will kill them with some deadly plague..but hey they had a choice !!
QUOTE(texasgirlheather @ Jul 3 2007, 04:37 PM)
Well the Bible says that the difference between OT times and NT times is the coming of the Savior. To be very, very brief, God has maintained a relationship with us at all times. In OT times, it was directly; i.e. He walked in the garden with the first people, He spoke audibly to many, etc...
When Jesus came to earth and died, He became the One that God has his relationship with us, THROUGH. We call people who make the choice to actively participate in this relationship with God through Jesus Christ, Christians.
I think as we (collectively as humans, in the beginning and on through OT times) exhibited more and more defiance of His rules, and more and more disrespect for His authority, and more and more confidence that we would find all the answers for ourselves with our sciences and our knowledge and didn't need Him; He simply allowed us to fully live out our desired seperation from Him. Kind of like when as parents we say at a certain point in our childrens' defiance, "OK, well you're going to have to make your own mistakes and I'm not going to save you this time, I tried and tried to tell you what would happen if you did that but you know better.. so go on ahead, I'm going to allow you to fall on your face because you are struggling against me so defiantly and are so positive you know better than I do."
We became, in our defiance, so positive we knew all the answers and didn't need Him for anything, He chose to stop telling us what to do all the time because we didn't listen anyway, and He knew our hearts were (and still are) geared toward doing whatever we want with no rules or restrictions. So, He gave a way for everyone who seeks Him to find Him, and He made it optional. Why would He make all of us be with Him, if we don't want to? He's giving us what we want, and allowing us to experience what it is like to not have Him.
I think if we had never rebelled, if we had not said to ourselves that His rules are oppressive and we would defy them and make our own way, we would be experiencing being peaceful. But because we each choose in our hearts to be chaotic and turn from Him, we are experiencing a world full of chaos.
I think it is impossibly gracious that He gives us the chance to be with Him if that's what we want. And he doesn't make it impossible by saying we have to be perfect or do perfect things. We just have to acknowledge that we need Him.
When Jesus came to earth and died, He became the One that God has his relationship with us, THROUGH. We call people who make the choice to actively participate in this relationship with God through Jesus Christ, Christians.
I think as we (collectively as humans, in the beginning and on through OT times) exhibited more and more defiance of His rules, and more and more disrespect for His authority, and more and more confidence that we would find all the answers for ourselves with our sciences and our knowledge and didn't need Him; He simply allowed us to fully live out our desired seperation from Him. Kind of like when as parents we say at a certain point in our childrens' defiance, "OK, well you're going to have to make your own mistakes and I'm not going to save you this time, I tried and tried to tell you what would happen if you did that but you know better.. so go on ahead, I'm going to allow you to fall on your face because you are struggling against me so defiantly and are so positive you know better than I do."
We became, in our defiance, so positive we knew all the answers and didn't need Him for anything, He chose to stop telling us what to do all the time because we didn't listen anyway, and He knew our hearts were (and still are) geared toward doing whatever we want with no rules or restrictions. So, He gave a way for everyone who seeks Him to find Him, and He made it optional. Why would He make all of us be with Him, if we don't want to? He's giving us what we want, and allowing us to experience what it is like to not have Him.
I think if we had never rebelled, if we had not said to ourselves that His rules are oppressive and we would defy them and make our own way, we would be experiencing being peaceful. But because we each choose in our hearts to be chaotic and turn from Him, we are experiencing a world full of chaos.
I think it is impossibly gracious that He gives us the chance to be with Him if that's what we want. And he doesn't make it impossible by saying we have to be perfect or do perfect things. We just have to acknowledge that we need Him.
You must be concentrating on the "goody parts" of the bible:
If God is constant and unchanging how did an egocentric Iron Age God of war come to be the modern day God of love?
And why did he feel the need to create us simply to worship him?
Also - if as the Old Testament says people like Judas or the Pharoah of Exodus (Ramses II I think) acted as they did because of God's intervention (God hardened Pharoah's heart) then what was the purpose of punishment - the plagues and the death of Egypt's first-born for example? Isn't that just contrivance and sadism?
If I had the power to create a rabbit would that then give me the right to torture it and ultimately condemn it to eternal damnation?
Even if we accept that God has the right to dispense with those of us who don't follow Him isn't all this fire and brimstone torture just a little gratuitous coming as it does from a being that's supposed to be so compassionate?
When you consider the personality of God there is only one conclusion: Scizophrenic,Psychopathic, egocentric sadist.
I do not understand how anyone with integrity, having considered the nature of God as described in the scriptures could follow Him unless it is because their integrity is less important to them than the fear of damnation. Presonally I'd rather do what I believe to be right, give myself the freedom not to judge others (a freedomI lacked as a Christian), and accept that if God exists then damnation with a clear conscience is preferable to eternity worshipping a psychopath.
And yes I do mean precisely that because for the first two years after leaving the church damnation was exactly what I expected because I valued my integrity more than I did anything that God the egotist had to offer me or my world.
The Lord thy God is a jealous God! aint that the truth? Jealous, petty, sadistic, bigotted, racist, murderous and a gratuitous torturer (oh once in a while he can be all warm & fuzzy). You may as well worship Jeffrey Dammer
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 8 2007, 10:30 PM)
The Lord thy God is a jealous God! aint that the truth? Jealous, petty, sadistic, bigotted, racist, murderous and a gratuitous torturer (oh once in a while he can be all warm & fuzzy). You may as well worship Jeffrey Dammer
Spot the irony here --> You have just mocked her God...and used the word bigotted..clearly disrespectful of her faith as christian.........the irony kills ya dont it?
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 8 2007, 09:30 PM)
You must be concentrating on the "goody parts" of the bible:
If God is constant and unchanging how did an egocentric Iron Age God of war come to be the modern day God of love?
And why did he feel the need to create us simply to worship him?
Also - if as the Old Testament says people like Judas or the Pharoah of Exodus (Ramses II I think) acted as they did because of God's intervention (God hardened Pharoah's heart) then what was the purpose of punishment - the plagues and the death of Egypt's first-born for example? Isn't that just contrivance and sadism?
If I had the power to create a rabbit would that then give me the right to torture it and ultimately condemn it to eternal damnation?
Even if we accept that God has the right to dispense with those of us who don't follow Him isn't all this fire and brimstone torture just a little gratuitous coming as it does from a being that's supposed to be so compassionate?
When you consider the personality of God there is only one conclusion: Scizophrenic,Psychopathic, egocentric sadist.
I do not understand how anyone with integrity, having considered the nature of God as described in the scriptures could follow Him unless it is because their integrity is less important to them than the fear of damnation. Presonally I'd rather do what I believe to be right, give myself the freedom not to judge others (a freedomI lacked as a Christian), and accept that if God exists then damnation with a clear conscience is preferable to eternity worshipping a psychopath.
And yes I do mean precisely that because for the first two years after leaving the church damnation was exactly what I expected because I valued my integrity more than I did anything that God the egotist had to offer me or my world.
The Lord thy God is a jealous God! aint that the truth? Jealous, petty, sadistic, bigotted, racist, murderous and a gratuitous torturer (oh once in a while he can be all warm & fuzzy). You may as well worship Jeffrey Dammer
If God is constant and unchanging how did an egocentric Iron Age God of war come to be the modern day God of love?
And why did he feel the need to create us simply to worship him?
Also - if as the Old Testament says people like Judas or the Pharoah of Exodus (Ramses II I think) acted as they did because of God's intervention (God hardened Pharoah's heart) then what was the purpose of punishment - the plagues and the death of Egypt's first-born for example? Isn't that just contrivance and sadism?
If I had the power to create a rabbit would that then give me the right to torture it and ultimately condemn it to eternal damnation?
Even if we accept that God has the right to dispense with those of us who don't follow Him isn't all this fire and brimstone torture just a little gratuitous coming as it does from a being that's supposed to be so compassionate?
When you consider the personality of God there is only one conclusion: Scizophrenic,Psychopathic, egocentric sadist.
I do not understand how anyone with integrity, having considered the nature of God as described in the scriptures could follow Him unless it is because their integrity is less important to them than the fear of damnation. Presonally I'd rather do what I believe to be right, give myself the freedom not to judge others (a freedomI lacked as a Christian), and accept that if God exists then damnation with a clear conscience is preferable to eternity worshipping a psychopath.
And yes I do mean precisely that because for the first two years after leaving the church damnation was exactly what I expected because I valued my integrity more than I did anything that God the egotist had to offer me or my world.
The Lord thy God is a jealous God! aint that the truth? Jealous, petty, sadistic, bigotted, racist, murderous and a gratuitous torturer (oh once in a while he can be all warm & fuzzy). You may as well worship Jeffrey Dammer
Spoken like a person who does not know God. Try getting to know him first, then make an honest statement about his personality. I know God well, well enough to know that what you said is completely false.
QUOTE(Nephilim_Slayer @ Jul 8 2007, 10:42 PM)
Spoken like a person who does not know God. Try getting to know him first, then make an honest statement about his personality. I know God well, well enough to know that what you said is completely false.
I agree with you that in order to make such bold arrogant statements, you should try and learn something 1st..instead of looking for only what is negative..............then descide
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 8 2007, 11:37 PM)
Spot the irony here --> You have just mocked her God...and used the word bigotted..clearly disrespectful of her faith as christian.........the irony kills ya dont it?
I am mocking the BOOK. I cannot ridicule the book without mocking her faith if she believes in the good? BOOk can I ?
She chooses to put all her Faith into it.
So if I ridicule the Koran which I do then I am also mocking their Faith. It's a no win situation !
I've never been able NOT to offend a christians beliefs (but some are still my friends)
When you challenge a belief system you will always offend. But I don't mean to.
The day I quit offending is the day I am no longer an honest human being.
Do you believe the Koran is the true word of god ?
If not you deserve to die according to some.
You have no more facts that the bible is the word of god than the Koran
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 8 2007, 04:30 PM)
The Lord thy God is a jealous God! aint that the truth? Jealous, petty, sadistic, bigotted, racist, murderous and a gratuitous torturer (oh once in a while he can be all warm & fuzzy). You may as well worship Jeffrey Dammer
It's clear the God you are referring to is Satan. He is the master of confusion and lies-
QUOTE(Nephilim_Slayer @ Jul 8 2007, 11:42 PM)
Spoken like a person who does not know God. Try getting to know him first, then make an honest statement about his personality. I know God well, well enough to know that what you said is completely false.
Too bad I can read !
I don't need someone dressing it up (the bible) and making it look like Dr.Seuss
Was raised a JW many years ,then baptist.
Nothing against you guys personally,I am sure you are wonderful people but I hate the BOOK not you folks ,sorry ! Forgive me cause god won't. LOL
[quote name='Sunni' date='Jul 8 2007, 11:59 PM' post='1764100']
It's clear the God you are referring to is Satan. He is the master of confusion and lies-
[/quote
WELL ACCORDING TO GOD HE CREATED HIM.
I think I'll let a child molester loose in my neighborhood even though I warned my kids.
Go ahead make more sorry excuses,because you need to so that you can digest the contradictions and the absurdity of it all.
Go ahead gang up and beat me up. Enjoy !
Peace...
-
It's clear the God you are referring to is Satan. He is the master of confusion and lies-
[/quote
WELL ACCORDING TO GOD HE CREATED HIM.
I think I'll let a child molester loose in my neighborhood even though I warned my kids.
Go ahead make more sorry excuses,because you need to so that you can digest the contradictions and the absurdity of it all.
Go ahead gang up and beat me up. Enjoy !
Peace...
-
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 8 2007, 10:53 PM)
I am mocking the BOOK. I cannot ridicule the book without mocking her faith if she believes in the good? BOOk can I ?
She chooses to put all her Faith into it.
So if I ridicule the Koran which I do then I am also mocking their Faith. It's a no win situation !
I've never been able NOT to offend a christians beliefs (but some are still my friends)
When you challenge a belief system you will always offend. But I don't mean to.
The day I quit offending is the day I am no longer an honest human being.
Do you believe the Koran is the true word of god ?
If not you deserve to die according to some.
You have no more facts that the bible is the word of god than the Koran
She chooses to put all her Faith into it.
So if I ridicule the Koran which I do then I am also mocking their Faith. It's a no win situation !
I've never been able NOT to offend a christians beliefs (but some are still my friends)
When you challenge a belief system you will always offend. But I don't mean to.
The day I quit offending is the day I am no longer an honest human being.
Do you believe the Koran is the true word of god ?
If not you deserve to die according to some.
You have no more facts that the bible is the word of god than the Koran
The BOOK happens to be her faith and therefore you have mocked her faith
BRAVO!!!!
Saying there is no god would be arrogant. I never said that.
I don't know and neither do you.
And no I don't just see the negative or look for it.
The only thing I like about the bible is Jesus. He was pretty cool for his time.
I don't know and neither do you.
And no I don't just see the negative or look for it.
The only thing I like about the bible is Jesus. He was pretty cool for his time.
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 9 2007, 12:18 AM)
The BOOK happens to be her faith and therefore you have mocked her faith
BRAVO!!!!
BRAVO!!!!
Sorry I'm not into worshipping gods that have all the negative attributes & character flaws of my abusive,sometimes loving ex-husband.
You are mocking my "unfaith" in the fact that I can't voice my contempt for the bible.
Bravo!!!!!
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 8 2007, 05:07 PM)
WELL ACCORDING TO GOD HE CREATED HIM.
I think I'll let a child molester loose in my neighborhood even though I warned my kids.
Go ahead make more sorry excuses,because you need to so that you can digest the contradictions and the absurdity of it all.
Go ahead gang up and beat me up. Enjoy !
Peace...
-
I think I'll let a child molester loose in my neighborhood even though I warned my kids.
Go ahead make more sorry excuses,because you need to so that you can digest the contradictions and the absurdity of it all.
Go ahead gang up and beat me up. Enjoy !
Peace...
-
GOD CREATED SATAN, SATAN MADE HIS OWN CHOICES- GET IT?
& I don't make excuses! Nor, do I need to make any.
You are the one here being completely absurd!
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 8 2007, 04:53 PM)
I am mocking the BOOK. I cannot ridicule the book without mocking her faith if she believes in the good? BOOk can I ?
She chooses to put all her Faith into it.
So if I ridicule the Koran which I do then I am also mocking their Faith. It's a no win situation !
I've never been able NOT to offend a christians beliefs (but some are still my friends)
When you challenge a belief system you will always offend. But I don't mean to.
The day I quit offending is the day I am no longer an honest human being.
Do you believe the Koran is the true word of god ?
If not you deserve to die according to some.
You have no more facts that the bible is the word of god than the Koran
She chooses to put all her Faith into it.
So if I ridicule the Koran which I do then I am also mocking their Faith. It's a no win situation !
I've never been able NOT to offend a christians beliefs (but some are still my friends)
When you challenge a belief system you will always offend. But I don't mean to.
The day I quit offending is the day I am no longer an honest human being.
Do you believe the Koran is the true word of god ?
If not you deserve to die according to some.
You have no more facts that the bible is the word of god than the Koran
Nice try, but why not own up to it. What you said was intended to be insulting, it was sarcastic. You could have said you disagreed with what the Bible teaches without bringing the sarcasm in.
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 8 2007, 11:21 PM)
Sorry I'm not into worshipping gods that have all the negative attributes & character flaws of my abusive,sometimes loving ex-husband.
You are mocking my "unfaith" in the fact that I can't voice my contempt for the bible.
Bravo!!!!!
You are mocking my "unfaith" in the fact that I can't voice my contempt for the bible.
Bravo!!!!!
mocking your what now?? 
good lord LOL this is the 1st time I have seen someone throw insults at a christian faith....get told about it and all of a sudden they cry they are being mocked for
It's the first time I've seen someone expect their spouse be on the standard of GOD!!
who wouldn't be disappointed- geez.
who wouldn't be disappointed- geez.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Jul 9 2007, 12:23 AM)
Nice try, but why not own up to it. What you said was intended to be insulting, it was sarcastic. You could have said you disagreed with what the Bible teaches without bringing the sarcasm in.
Does straight to the point cause discomfort ? I am sincerely sorry
Is it not hard being non-sarcastic when grown people tell you "Santa Claus" does really exist ? That's how it makes me feel.
It insults my intelligence but I will try to be meek for we shall inherit the earth.
But you are right I should try to squelch my sarcasm. Humor is always sarcastic . If there was no humor I would be crying right now.
I guess I watch too much National Geographic & read to many science books & archeology articles.
Excuse me for being a freethinker & rationalist
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 8 2007, 11:38 PM)
Does straight to the point cause discomfort ? I am sincerely sorry
Is it not hard being non-sarcastic when grown people tell you "Santa Claus" does really exist ? That's how it makes me feel.
It insults my intelligence but I will try to be meek for we shall inherit the earth.
But you are right I should try to squelch my sarcasm. Humor is always sarcastic . If there was no humor I would be crying right now.
I guess I watch too much National Geographic & read to many science books & archeology articles.
Excuse me for being a freethinker & rationalist
Is it not hard being non-sarcastic when grown people tell you "Santa Claus" does really exist ? That's how it makes me feel.
It insults my intelligence but I will try to be meek for we shall inherit the earth.
But you are right I should try to squelch my sarcasm. Humor is always sarcastic . If there was no humor I would be crying right now.
I guess I watch too much National Geographic & read to many science books & archeology articles.
Excuse me for being a freethinker & rationalist
I fully and totally disagree with the bible ...anyone that knows me on here know this lol
But out of respect, I came to learn i cant mock it like that..........I always just say - I think a story is rubbish IMO <--in my opinion...something I am entitled to...then I stare WHY i feel its rubbish and dont make sense...I dont blast the living crap out of it
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 9 2007, 12:29 AM)
mocking your what now?? good lord LOL this is the 1st time I have seen someone throw insults at a christian faith....get told about it and all of a sudden they cry they are being mocked for
I was being sarcastic. HA HA
Is it allowed ? If not I will stop.
I promise
QUOTE(Sunni @ Jul 9 2007, 12:35 AM)
It's the first time I've seen someone expect their spouse be on the standard of GOD!!
who wouldn't be disappointed- geez.
who wouldn't be disappointed- geez.
Thanks but no thanks--yeah and it become a real problem because he thought he was god. LOL ! Sniffle !
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 8 2007, 05:48 PM)
Thanks but no thanks--yeah and it become a real problem because he thought he was god. LOL ! Sniffle !
Hell's bells that's too bad! People will always let you down-
We've all been kicked in the rear before, disappointed, hurt & angry.
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 8 2007, 11:48 PM)
Thanks but no thanks--yeah and it become a real problem because he thought he was god. LOL ! Sniffle !
A lot of men like to thinkthey are Gods gift to all women LOL...sure hope they held on to the receipt
Good night you girls. I'm getting very tired.
And i do say my prayers ...just in case.
Have a wonerful day !!
And i do say my prayers ...just in case.
Have a wonerful day !!
Does it matter?
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 9 2007, 07:00 AM)
You must be concentrating on the "goody parts" of the bible:
If God is constant and unchanging how did an egocentric Iron Age God of war come to be the modern day God of love?
And why did he feel the need to create us simply to worship him?
Also - if as the Old Testament says people like Judas or the Pharoah of Exodus (Ramses II I think) acted as they did because of God's intervention (God hardened Pharoah's heart) then what was the purpose of punishment - the plagues and the death of Egypt's first-born for example? Isn't that just contrivance and sadism?
If I had the power to create a rabbit would that then give me the right to torture it and ultimately condemn it to eternal damnation?
Even if we accept that God has the right to dispense with those of us who don't follow Him isn't all this fire and brimstone torture just a little gratuitous coming as it does from a being that's supposed to be so compassionate?
When you consider the personality of God there is only one conclusion: Scizophrenic,Psychopathic, egocentric sadist.
I do not understand how anyone with integrity, having considered the nature of God as described in the scriptures could follow Him unless it is because their integrity is less important to them than the fear of damnation. Presonally I'd rather do what I believe to be right, give myself the freedom not to judge others (a freedomI lacked as a Christian), and accept that if God exists then damnation with a clear conscience is preferable to eternity worshipping a psychopath.
And yes I do mean precisely that because for the first two years after leaving the church damnation was exactly what I expected because I valued my integrity more than I did anything that God the egotist had to offer me or my world.
The Lord thy God is a jealous God! aint that the truth? Jealous, petty, sadistic, bigotted, racist, murderous and a gratuitous torturer (oh once in a while he can be all warm & fuzzy). You may as well worship Jeffrey Dammer
If God is constant and unchanging how did an egocentric Iron Age God of war come to be the modern day God of love?
And why did he feel the need to create us simply to worship him?
Also - if as the Old Testament says people like Judas or the Pharoah of Exodus (Ramses II I think) acted as they did because of God's intervention (God hardened Pharoah's heart) then what was the purpose of punishment - the plagues and the death of Egypt's first-born for example? Isn't that just contrivance and sadism?
If I had the power to create a rabbit would that then give me the right to torture it and ultimately condemn it to eternal damnation?
Even if we accept that God has the right to dispense with those of us who don't follow Him isn't all this fire and brimstone torture just a little gratuitous coming as it does from a being that's supposed to be so compassionate?
When you consider the personality of God there is only one conclusion: Scizophrenic,Psychopathic, egocentric sadist.
I do not understand how anyone with integrity, having considered the nature of God as described in the scriptures could follow Him unless it is because their integrity is less important to them than the fear of damnation. Presonally I'd rather do what I believe to be right, give myself the freedom not to judge others (a freedomI lacked as a Christian), and accept that if God exists then damnation with a clear conscience is preferable to eternity worshipping a psychopath.
And yes I do mean precisely that because for the first two years after leaving the church damnation was exactly what I expected because I valued my integrity more than I did anything that God the egotist had to offer me or my world.
The Lord thy God is a jealous God! aint that the truth? Jealous, petty, sadistic, bigotted, racist, murderous and a gratuitous torturer (oh once in a while he can be all warm & fuzzy). You may as well worship Jeffrey Dammer
While you are entitled to you opinion, my personal counter would be that it is based on both an ignorance of the actual text/context of the bible, followed by some illogical assumptions based on this ignorance, and a considerable amount of personal emotion based on your experiences.
While these experiences may have been real, and the emotions genuine, it is no better a basis for rational decision making than an emotive acceptance of biblical truths. For a real understanding of biblical truths, try just reading the bible and discussing the complexities of it with people who are able to do so, but do not have a vested interest in one particular truth.
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 3 2007, 11:30 PM)
From reading another thread the other day...I noticed IAMS make a point, where he explained how God doesn't want to interfere with what goes on, because if he did, then people would REALLY know for sure, God exists. So over all what IAMS was trying to say was - God wants us to chose for ourselves, to make up our own minds as we see fit, and then decide if we believe and have faith God exists or not
IAMS made sense when he said this, because it explains as to WHY people do all sorts of things, good or bad, it's all about making choices...therefore God will NOT interfere and send REAL EVIDENCE that he really does exist, cuz that would only defeat the purpose of your own freedom of choice
SO, I was thinking of this..........
MOSES & the Pharaoh
The story of how Moses wanted the pharaoh to set his people free, and the pharaoh was not going to give in to Moses and his demands.
To cut a long story short, God did (according to the bible)...in fact interfere, by showing real evidence he was for real, and does exist.
Here's how... - When the Pharaoh refused to set the people free, it was Moses that told the Pharaoh, that if he does not set his people free, that God will send 10 plagues. (you all know how it goes lol)
Now that is real evidence...I mean if you were in the shoes of the Pharaoh, and seen the nasty work of all 10 plagues..then is not a coincidence (or ten) ...not that no way...that sh*t is something else...and does spell evidence of God...Moses told him that God will send the plagues..if the pharoah didnt set the people free...pity 1st born innocent babies had to suffer but still evidence of God
So...why do you think God interfered back then?? Why did he send plague like he told mosses he would do...knowing that once these plagues happened just as God said..then that itself is real evidence that God exists...so again WHY did he chose to interfere?? if he wanted anyone to use the freedom of their minds, to judge for themselves..then why interfere?
And to further my question...how come he only interfered with them...why or were was he, when others throughout have been held prisoner and tortured to death by ie - terrorists...how come he didnt interfere to help these people??
its something I can't understand, so wondered if anyone else can?
IAMS made sense when he says that God doesnt interfere for the reasons to give use a right to chose and make use of the freedom we have in our minds................but that bible story dont make sense nor does it connect with what IAMS has said
This may seem to be a tough one...but hey it gets you thinking...
Hope no one see's this as me being too negative..im just posting up something that boggles the mind..wondering if anyone has any feedback
thanks
IAMS made sense when he said this, because it explains as to WHY people do all sorts of things, good or bad, it's all about making choices...therefore God will NOT interfere and send REAL EVIDENCE that he really does exist, cuz that would only defeat the purpose of your own freedom of choice
SO, I was thinking of this..........
MOSES & the Pharaoh
The story of how Moses wanted the pharaoh to set his people free, and the pharaoh was not going to give in to Moses and his demands.
To cut a long story short, God did (according to the bible)...in fact interfere, by showing real evidence he was for real, and does exist.
Here's how... - When the Pharaoh refused to set the people free, it was Moses that told the Pharaoh, that if he does not set his people free, that God will send 10 plagues. (you all know how it goes lol)
Now that is real evidence...I mean if you were in the shoes of the Pharaoh, and seen the nasty work of all 10 plagues..then is not a coincidence (or ten) ...not that no way...that sh*t is something else...and does spell evidence of God...Moses told him that God will send the plagues..if the pharoah didnt set the people free...pity 1st born innocent babies had to suffer but still evidence of God
So...why do you think God interfered back then?? Why did he send plague like he told mosses he would do...knowing that once these plagues happened just as God said..then that itself is real evidence that God exists...so again WHY did he chose to interfere?? if he wanted anyone to use the freedom of their minds, to judge for themselves..then why interfere?
And to further my question...how come he only interfered with them...why or were was he, when others throughout have been held prisoner and tortured to death by ie - terrorists...how come he didnt interfere to help these people??
its something I can't understand, so wondered if anyone else can?
IAMS made sense when he says that God doesnt interfere for the reasons to give use a right to chose and make use of the freedom we have in our minds................but that bible story dont make sense nor does it connect with what IAMS has said
This may seem to be a tough one...but hey it gets you thinking...
Hope no one see's this as me being too negative..im just posting up something that boggles the mind..wondering if anyone has any feedback
thanks
This is a very complex issue which, perhaps can be analysed, using logic and examples.
It is dependent on accepting the bible as, if not gods literal word, then written by people who had actual contact with a real god, and tried to record their communications with accuracy and purpose.
If you have no acceptance of biblical truth/principles then any argument is academic anyway.
All the evidence is that god created us with free will. He understood the ramifications of that, but there were good reasons for it, which have been discussed at considerable length elsewhere.
God had a plan which he hoped mankind would follow, yet he could see all the possible alernatives which free will allows; but after the fall at eden he had to revert to plan B.
He continued to try and guide mankind towards a better life, but man, through the sin which had entered at eden, kept rejecting the advice and guidance. As a last resort he destroyed most of humanity, leaving only a few to start again. However, man's separation from god remained, and despite many attempts, including a special covenant with the israelites, it looked like we were all going down the road to eternal death.
However, jesus offered us the chance to return to the image of god in which we were created, by washing away our sins in his blood, and now we can all be saved if we choose. This is the story of the new testament
The story of the old testament is one of god trying desperately to help his creation. He does this with individuals and nations. To modern eyes some of his actions may seem harsh, yet in the bible we see him trying time and time again to warn people and cities. The bible shows how hard it was for god to make some of those decisions and how he wept over some of them. Yet he had to try to do what was right.IF not ALL humanity would die and never be ressurected
Some times god did act to force an issue or to make a point, but the overall picture is one of mankind exercising free choice, and unfortunately choosing a lifestlye which lead to death rather than eternal life.
A lot depends on perception. If you know that what god was offering was eternal life, then many of the consequences applied to those who had already chosen death, appear quite logical. The death of innocents is satan's work,only possible because we accepted him as our lord by believing his lie. God can, and will, however restore the innocent to eternal life.
On a personal note, I see this dilemma reflected in my own life. I know what is right. Sometimes I make wrong choices. Sometimes god gives me a physical or a verbal warning about what the consequences of my actions will be (In the form of prophetic dreams or visions or aural warnings) Sometimes he also shows me that I am on the right track. However, on occasions god has to take things into his own hands and physically manipulate time and space around me to save me from what would otherwise have killed me or harmed me.
Perhaps because of these personal experiences, the accounts of both the new and old testaments read to me as quite possibly literal events, with god and angels in real if intermittent communication with people.The stories are not just moral tales but real recollections of people, distorted perhaps by their cultural knowledge base, but reflecting a real entity both capable of manipulating time space and energy, and with enough personal interest in humanity to do so when required.
This turned into a bit of a ramble, but hopefully it provides, as you asked for, some feedback, even if only a personal POV.
QUOTE(Mr Walker @ Jul 9 2007, 07:23 AM)
This is a very complex issue which, perhaps can be analysed, using logic and examples.
It is dependent on accepting the bible as, if not gods literal word, then written by people who had actual contact with a real god, and tried to record their communications with accuracy and purpose.
If you have no acceptance of biblical truth/principles then any argument is academic anyway.
All the evidence is that god created us with free will. He understood the ramifications of that, but there were good reasons for it, which have been discussed at considerable length elsewhere.
God had a plan which he hoped mankind would follow, yet he could see all the possible alernatives which free will allows; but after the fall at eden he had to revert to plan B.
He continued to try and guide mankind towards a better life, but man, through the sin which had entered at eden, kept rejecting the advice and guidance. As a last resort he destroyed most of humanity, leaving only a few to start again. However, man's separation from god remained, and despite many attempts, including a special covenant with the israelites, it looked like we were all going down the road to eternal death.
However, jesus offered us the chance to return to the image of god in which we were created, by washing away our sins in his blood, and now we can all be saved if we choose. This is the story of the new testament
The story of the old testament is one of god trying desperately to help his creation. He does this with individuals and nations. To modern eyes some of his actions may seem harsh, yet in the bible we see him trying time and time again to warn people and cities. The bible shows how hard it was for god to
make some of those decisions and how he wept over some of them. Yet he had to try to do what was right.IF not ALL humanity would die and never be ressurected
Some times god did act to force an issue or to make a point, but the overall picture is one of mankind exercising free choice, and unfortunately choosing a lifestlye which lead to death rather than eternal life.
A lot depends on perception. If you know that what god was offering was eternal life, then many of the consequences applied to those who had already chosen death, appear quite logical. The death of innocents is satan's work,only possible because we accepted him as our lord by believing his lie. God can, and will, however restore the innocent to eternal life.
On a personal note, I see this dilemma reflected in my own life. I know what is right. Sometimes I make wrong choices. Sometimes god gives me a physical or a verbal warning about what the consequences of my actions will be (In the form of prophetic dreams or visions or aural warnings) Sometimes he also shows me that I am on the right track. However, on occasions god has to take things into his own hands and physically manipulate time and space around me to save me from what would otherwise have killed me or harmed me.
Perhaps because of these personal experiences, the accounts of both the new and old testaments read to me as quite possibly literal events, with god and angels in real if intermittent communication with people.The stories are not just moral tales but real recollections of people, distorted perhaps by their cultural knowledge base, but reflecting a real entity both capable of manipulating time space and energy, and with enough personal interest in humanity to do so when required.
This turned into a bit of a ramble, but hopefully it provides, as you asked for, some feedback, even if only a personal POV.
It is dependent on accepting the bible as, if not gods literal word, then written by people who had actual contact with a real god, and tried to record their communications with accuracy and purpose.
If you have no acceptance of biblical truth/principles then any argument is academic anyway.
All the evidence is that god created us with free will. He understood the ramifications of that, but there were good reasons for it, which have been discussed at considerable length elsewhere.
God had a plan which he hoped mankind would follow, yet he could see all the possible alernatives which free will allows; but after the fall at eden he had to revert to plan B.
He continued to try and guide mankind towards a better life, but man, through the sin which had entered at eden, kept rejecting the advice and guidance. As a last resort he destroyed most of humanity, leaving only a few to start again. However, man's separation from god remained, and despite many attempts, including a special covenant with the israelites, it looked like we were all going down the road to eternal death.
However, jesus offered us the chance to return to the image of god in which we were created, by washing away our sins in his blood, and now we can all be saved if we choose. This is the story of the new testament
The story of the old testament is one of god trying desperately to help his creation. He does this with individuals and nations. To modern eyes some of his actions may seem harsh, yet in the bible we see him trying time and time again to warn people and cities. The bible shows how hard it was for god to
make some of those decisions and how he wept over some of them. Yet he had to try to do what was right.IF not ALL humanity would die and never be ressurected
Some times god did act to force an issue or to make a point, but the overall picture is one of mankind exercising free choice, and unfortunately choosing a lifestlye which lead to death rather than eternal life.
A lot depends on perception. If you know that what god was offering was eternal life, then many of the consequences applied to those who had already chosen death, appear quite logical. The death of innocents is satan's work,only possible because we accepted him as our lord by believing his lie. God can, and will, however restore the innocent to eternal life.
On a personal note, I see this dilemma reflected in my own life. I know what is right. Sometimes I make wrong choices. Sometimes god gives me a physical or a verbal warning about what the consequences of my actions will be (In the form of prophetic dreams or visions or aural warnings) Sometimes he also shows me that I am on the right track. However, on occasions god has to take things into his own hands and physically manipulate time and space around me to save me from what would otherwise have killed me or harmed me.
Perhaps because of these personal experiences, the accounts of both the new and old testaments read to me as quite possibly literal events, with god and angels in real if intermittent communication with people.The stories are not just moral tales but real recollections of people, distorted perhaps by their cultural knowledge base, but reflecting a real entity both capable of manipulating time space and energy, and with enough personal interest in humanity to do so when required.
This turned into a bit of a ramble, but hopefully it provides, as you asked for, some feedback, even if only a personal POV.
You know the whole point is moot becaiuse there is zero evidence for the bible being the inspired word of god.
And JW's study their bible more than any other denomination. (correct me if I'm wrong) Of course they have their own interpretation as do you all.
You guys pick and choose your favorite scriptures to fit a viewpoint that fits your view. Now isn't that convenient ?
Please , I am not attacking you as human beings it is that little "god box" that is locked up in there & someone threw away the key. Everytime there was evidence conflicting to the bible's teachings I was warned Satan is behind it ,oh please....that's when the "brainwashing alarm bells" went off. People really seem hypnotized
We can agree to disagree.....
And as far as me being "emotional" I can only say FAITH is more emotional than any logic or reasoning.
I will keep a keen watch & open ears on archeological evidence & science. Thank you very much.....
No problems. Well just one little one. My point on satan is that the evil in the world is his doing, not gods. The most god can be blamed for is giving us freewill, and that is a different argument. I did not suggest that satan causes us to doubt the bible, although that may be true. It is your choice what to believe, and your choice whether or not to read the bible, or to discuss its principles.
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 9 2007, 12:37 AM)
You know the whole point is moot becaiuse there is zero evidence for the bible being the inspired word of god.
And JW's study their bible more than any other denomination. (correct me if I'm wrong) Of course they have their own interpretation as do you all.
And JW's study their bible more than any other denomination. (correct me if I'm wrong) Of course they have their own interpretation as do you all.
Who needs "evidence" from the bible?.. LOL! It's (simply put) a guide to salvation. Who ever said it was supposed to present "EVIDENCE" that God existed? I don't know what they taught you in your Sunday school class, But, God is Spirit, not words in a book! It doesn't matter if you knew the bible backwards and forwards blindfolded, if you don't know God personally, those words are meaningless. Did they leave out that minor detail?
QUOTE
Please , I am not attacking you as human beings it is that little "god box" that is locked up in there & someone threw away the key.
If it makes you feel that much better attack, attack away! I'm much too busy here in my "god box" being entertained.
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence."
Richard Dawkins
I feel this is so correct, if you don't have evidence you must make do with faith
I agree with C.Hitchins
I/we will no longer be silenced by undue deference to fairy tales. We will no longer keep quiet when some of you try and indoctrinate our children, censor our speech, interfere with our sex lives and subjugate us women.
I take pride in being rational. I encourage intellectual curiosity in my children
.
I live a full and moral life. It is untroubled by fear or blind unquestioning obedience, and I am proud of that.
But remember I am not claiming that we don't have a soul or afterlife (not sure about that because of conflicting evidence,claims etc. ) I am just very sceptical of "the bible" amongst other religious texts . Blame the brain
Richard Dawkins
I feel this is so correct, if you don't have evidence you must make do with faith
I agree with C.Hitchins
I/we will no longer be silenced by undue deference to fairy tales. We will no longer keep quiet when some of you try and indoctrinate our children, censor our speech, interfere with our sex lives and subjugate us women.
I take pride in being rational. I encourage intellectual curiosity in my children
.
I live a full and moral life. It is untroubled by fear or blind unquestioning obedience, and I am proud of that.
But remember I am not claiming that we don't have a soul or afterlife (not sure about that because of conflicting evidence,claims etc. ) I am just very sceptical of "the bible" amongst other religious texts . Blame the brain
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 9 2007, 09:47 AM)
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence."
Richard Dawkins
I feel this is so correct, if you don't have evidence you must make do with faith
I agree with C.Hitchins
I/we will no longer be silenced by undue deference to fairy tales. We will no longer keep quiet when some of you try and indoctrinate our children, censor our speech, interfere with our sex lives and subjugate us women.
I take pride in being rational. I encourage intellectual curiosity in my children
.
I live a full and moral life. It is untroubled by fear or blind unquestioning obedience, and I am proud of that.
Richard Dawkins
I feel this is so correct, if you don't have evidence you must make do with faith
I agree with C.Hitchins
I/we will no longer be silenced by undue deference to fairy tales. We will no longer keep quiet when some of you try and indoctrinate our children, censor our speech, interfere with our sex lives and subjugate us women.
I take pride in being rational. I encourage intellectual curiosity in my children
.
I live a full and moral life. It is untroubled by fear or blind unquestioning obedience, and I am proud of that.
If there was evidence, we wouldn't call it a faith
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Jul 9 2007, 03:47 AM)
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence."
Richard Dawkins
I feel this is so correct, if you don't have evidence you must make do with faith
I agree with C.Hitchins
I/we will no longer be silenced by undue deference to fairy tales. We will no longer keep quiet when some of you try and indoctrinate our children, censor our speech, interfere with our sex lives and subjugate us women.
I take pride in being rational. I encourage intellectual curiosity in my children
.
I live a full and moral life. It is untroubled by fear or blind unquestioning obedience, and I am proud of that.
But remember I am not claiming that we don't have a soul or afterlife (not sure about that because of conflicting evidence,claims etc. ) I am just very sceptical of "the bible" amongst other religious texts . Blame the brain
Richard Dawkins
I feel this is so correct, if you don't have evidence you must make do with faith
I agree with C.Hitchins
I/we will no longer be silenced by undue deference to fairy tales. We will no longer keep quiet when some of you try and indoctrinate our children, censor our speech, interfere with our sex lives and subjugate us women.
I take pride in being rational. I encourage intellectual curiosity in my children
.
I live a full and moral life. It is untroubled by fear or blind unquestioning obedience, and I am proud of that.
But remember I am not claiming that we don't have a soul or afterlife (not sure about that because of conflicting evidence,claims etc. ) I am just very sceptical of "the bible" amongst other religious texts . Blame the brain
You're making an incorrect assumption. Faith is, of course, trusting and or believing in something you have no proof for. However, that is just the way you approach God, in faith, once you have put your trust in Him, you get plenty of proof, and it is no longer just faith, it is a complete personal knowledge of someone that no one else can see, unless they also have exercised their faith.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Jul 9 2007, 08:27 PM)
You're making an incorrect assumption. Faith is, of course, trusting and or believing in something you have no proof for. However, that is just the way you approach God, in faith, once you have put your trust in Him, you get plenty of proof, and it is no longer just faith, it is a complete personal knowledge of someone that no one else can see, unless they also have exercised their faith.
THANK YOU IAMS............This is exactly what I was saying...to have faith or if you like the IDEA of faith is to believe without proof, cuz if we had proof, we wouldnt call it faith...whats the point eh??
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Jul 9 2007, 02:27 PM)
You're making an incorrect assumption. Faith is, of course, trusting and or believing in something you have no proof for. However, that is just the way you approach God, in faith, once you have put your trust in Him, you get plenty of proof, and it is no longer just faith, it is a complete personal knowledge of someone that no one else can see, unless they also have exercised their faith.
That is respectable.
But people all over the world come to different Gods/Goddesses in the same way, and experience the same proof for those different Gods/Goddesses.
-
IMO, this means either none of these Gods are real, or ALL of these Gods are real.
The Jury inside my head is still out on that one.
Is this can of worms still open ?
I'm not going there.
Bye.....
I'll secretly just hover.....
with some aliens
I'm not going there.
Bye.....
I'll secretly just hover.....
with some aliens
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 4 2007, 12:00 AM)
From reading another thread the other day...I noticed IAMS make a point, where he explained how God doesn't want to interfere with what goes on, because if he did, then people would REALLY know for sure, God exists. So over all what IAMS was trying to say was - God wants us to chose for ourselves, to make up our own minds as we see fit, and then decide if we believe and have faith God exists or not
IAMS made sense when he said this, because it explains as to WHY people do all sorts of things, good or bad, it's all about making choices...therefore God will NOT interfere and send REAL EVIDENCE that he really does exist, cuz that would only defeat the purpose of your own freedom of choice
SO, I was thinking of this..........
MOSES & the Pharaoh
The story of how Moses wanted the pharaoh to set his people free, and the pharaoh was not going to give in to Moses and his demands.
To cut a long story short, God did (according to the bible)...in fact interfere, by showing real evidence he was for real, and does exist.
Here's how... - When the Pharaoh refused to set the people free, it was Moses that told the Pharaoh, that if he does not set his people free, that God will send 10 plagues. (you all know how it goes lol)
Now that is real evidence...I mean if you were in the shoes of the Pharaoh, and seen the nasty work of all 10 plagues..then is not a coincidence (or ten) ...not that no way...that sh*t is something else...and does spell evidence of God...Moses told him that God will send the plagues..if the pharoah didnt set the people free...pity 1st born innocent babies had to suffer but still evidence of God
So...why do you think God interfered back then?? Why did he send plague like he told mosses he would do...knowing that once these plagues happened just as God said..then that itself is real evidence that God exists...so again WHY did he chose to interfere?? if he wanted anyone to use the freedom of their minds, to judge for themselves..then why interfere?
And to further my question...how come he only interfered with them...why or were was he, when others throughout have been held prisoner and tortured to death by ie - terrorists...how come he didnt interfere to help these people??
its something I can't understand, so wondered if anyone else can?
IAMS made sense when he says that God doesnt interfere for the reasons to give use a right to chose and make use of the freedom we have in our minds................but that bible story dont make sense nor does it connect with what IAMS has said
This may seem to be a tough one...but hey it gets you thinking...
Hope no one see's this as me being too negative..im just posting up something that boggles the mind..wondering if anyone has any feedback
thanks
interesting, BM. You are right about God showing himself to not just Moses but to Pharaoh also (and it's not the only time in the Bible that God does so). There are a few things to note that you missed in your discussion that I thought would be worth mentioning:IAMS made sense when he said this, because it explains as to WHY people do all sorts of things, good or bad, it's all about making choices...therefore God will NOT interfere and send REAL EVIDENCE that he really does exist, cuz that would only defeat the purpose of your own freedom of choice
SO, I was thinking of this..........
MOSES & the Pharaoh
The story of how Moses wanted the pharaoh to set his people free, and the pharaoh was not going to give in to Moses and his demands.
To cut a long story short, God did (according to the bible)...in fact interfere, by showing real evidence he was for real, and does exist.
Here's how... - When the Pharaoh refused to set the people free, it was Moses that told the Pharaoh, that if he does not set his people free, that God will send 10 plagues. (you all know how it goes lol)
Now that is real evidence...I mean if you were in the shoes of the Pharaoh, and seen the nasty work of all 10 plagues..then is not a coincidence (or ten) ...not that no way...that sh*t is something else...and does spell evidence of God...Moses told him that God will send the plagues..if the pharoah didnt set the people free...pity 1st born innocent babies had to suffer but still evidence of God
So...why do you think God interfered back then?? Why did he send plague like he told mosses he would do...knowing that once these plagues happened just as God said..then that itself is real evidence that God exists...so again WHY did he chose to interfere?? if he wanted anyone to use the freedom of their minds, to judge for themselves..then why interfere?
And to further my question...how come he only interfered with them...why or were was he, when others throughout have been held prisoner and tortured to death by ie - terrorists...how come he didnt interfere to help these people??
its something I can't understand, so wondered if anyone else can?
IAMS made sense when he says that God doesnt interfere for the reasons to give use a right to chose and make use of the freedom we have in our minds................but that bible story dont make sense nor does it connect with what IAMS has said
This may seem to be a tough one...but hey it gets you thinking...
Hope no one see's this as me being too negative..im just posting up something that boggles the mind..wondering if anyone has any feedback
thanks
1 - God did show himself, but Pharaoh could not choose to do other than what he did. On at least four occassions, Pharaoh was about to let the Israelites go. But he didn't, because God intervened and "hardened Pharaoh's heart". Far from God turning up and giving Pharaoh the opportunity to turn away, God actually hardened his heart and made him go through with it, so God then went through all ten plagues. There goes free will, right out the window. Of course, there was also a human element from Pharaoh, because he also "hardened his own heart", so it was a joint effort between God and man. But God is responsible. So even if Pharaoh had wanted to turn, it was God's plan that Pharaoh should harden his heart. I'll explain what that plan is a little later......
2 - The Pharaoh had his own magic-men who could turn water to blood and staffs to snakes. In other words, what Moses was given the ability to do, Pharaoh's magicians could also do. Though not as convincingly (for example, when they turned their staffs into snakes, Moses' snake devoured the other ones). Whether Pharaoh's magicians were just illusionists who used tricks to show their "power", or whether they were actually granted a form of power from a demon or other power that they worshipped, the Bible does not say, nor do I think it matters to the point of the story. What is important is that Moses' God was infinitely more powerful than the magicians.
3 - This then moved on from power over the magicians to the ten plagues, with each plague representing a different Egyptian God (i'll post more details on this if anyone is interested - just let me know. I've written it before, but it is a little off-topic, so I'll suffice it to simply say that each of the ten plagues was designed to show God's power over the "gods" of Egypt.
So why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? From what I see, the reasons are two-fold. The lesser reason is to (as written above) show God's power over the Egyptian gods - to prove that they are just false gods with no real power of their own. The greater reason points to Jesus. The tenth plague (the death of all the first-born) was the only one of the ten plagues that could be avoided. All nine others, everyone was forced to endure (boils, locusts, water-to-blood etc). With this plague, all one needed to do was smear the blood of a lamb on their door post, and the angel of death would pass over their house. This, in my understanding, was the entire reason for the plagues. As a result of this tenth plague, the Israelites celebrated the time of Passover, when the Angel of Death literally did "pass over" their roofs, because of the blood of the lamb. Moving forward to the time of Jesus, and Jesus is referred to as the "Passover Lamb". The blood of the Passover Lamb protects those who come in under his house from the real and ultimate Death that awaits us all.
In short, the Passover was a herald of Jesus. The Passover festival was "fulfilled" (I've used that word in quite a few recent posts, this is another example of the Old Testament being fulfilled) when Jesus became our Passover Lamb, to save us from Death.
This was God's plan all along. God set in motion a plan from the very beginning of creation to point the way to Jesus, and all those thousands of years ago in Egypt, another piece of that puzzle was revealed to herald that Jesus was our Passover Lamb. In order to do so, it was necessary for God to intervene, to speak to Moses, to harden Pharaoh's heart, to perform miracles and send plagues which pointed the way to God's sacrificing himself for us on the cross.
Essentially, IamsSon's statement that God's interference would impact on our ability to choose may be correct. However, I think it would be more appropriate to say that God does not appear because it is not in his plan to do so. Every time God performed a miracle or did something in the Old Testament, there was a reason for it, and it was not simply to say "hey, I'm here, you can believe in me". The same can be said for the miracles performed by Jesus - never were they done just to show that he was God. There was always a purpose to them. In other words, if God did turn up and speak to us today, it would be for more reason than to simply say "Hey, I exist". But according to the Bible, God has finished revealing himself. Jesus was the final piece in the puzzle of life that had been put together a piece at a time since the start of creation. As such, I can think of no reason that God would turn up in our world today, except to say "hey, I exist", which would be a contradiction of everything we know of God in the Bible.
Sorry for the long post, I really did want to make it short and sharp, but this issue was a lot bigger than could be explained in one paragraph (honestly, I'm afraid I've left too much detail out as it is, already
). ~ Paranoid Android
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 3 2007, 10:00 AM)
God wants us to chose for ourselves, to make up our own minds as we see fit, and then decide if we believe and have faith God exists or not
And if we choose wrong, he tortures us for all eternity in Hell.
I can't worship any god I hate.
And I can't help but hate a god that gives free will and then tortures for eternity every person that forgot to say "I accept Jesus" before dying.
QUOTE(Repoman @ Jul 11 2007, 10:43 AM)
And if we choose wrong, he tortures us for all eternity in Hell.
I can't worship any god I hate.
And I can't help but hate a god that gives free will and then tortures for eternity every person that forgot to say "I accept Jesus" before dying.
I can't worship any god I hate.
And I can't help but hate a god that gives free will and then tortures for eternity every person that forgot to say "I accept Jesus" before dying.
amen. the god of the n.t. is hateful, evil and punishing. this is not a loving god. The "real" God loves you, and will receive you and guide you in the afterlife. all this hell b.s. is a remnant of the church councils trying to force conversions on the pagan roman empire. Let's try to put these evil lies into the past. be free of the hatred promulgated by the n.t.
I think there is only one Truth and one God. I think that it is only the various perceptions of God that turned away and towards evil and power. That reflects more the people involved and not God.
Where there is good there seems to always be evil trying to use or destroy the works the good have accomplished.
Where there is good there seems to always be evil trying to use or destroy the works the good have accomplished.
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jul 3 2007, 02:00 PM)
From reading another thread the other day...I noticed IAMS make a point, where he explained how God doesn't want to interfere with what goes on, because if he did, then people would REALLY know for sure, God exists. So over all what IAMS was trying to say was - God wants us to chose for ourselves, to make up our own minds as we see fit, and then decide if we believe and have faith God exists or not
IAMS made sense when he said this, because it explains as to WHY people do all sorts of things, good or bad, it's all about making choices...therefore God will NOT interfere and send REAL EVIDENCE that he really does exist, cuz that would only defeat the purpose of your own freedom of choice
SO, I was thinking of this..........
MOSES & the Pharaoh
The story of how Moses wanted the pharaoh to set his people free, and the pharaoh was not going to give in to Moses and his demands.
To cut a long story short, God did (according to the bible)...in fact interfere, by showing real evidence he was for real, and does exist.
Here's how... - When the Pharaoh refused to set the people free, it was Moses that told the Pharaoh, that if he does not set his people free, that God will send 10 plagues. (you all know how it goes lol)
Now that is real evidence...I mean if you were in the shoes of the Pharaoh, and seen the nasty work of all 10 plagues..then is not a coincidence (or ten) ...not that no way...that sh*t is something else...and does spell evidence of God...Moses told him that God will send the plagues..if the pharoah didnt set the people free...pity 1st born innocent babies had to suffer but still evidence of God
So...why do you think God interfered back then?? Why did he send plague like he told mosses he would do...knowing that once these plagues happened just as God said..then that itself is real evidence that God exists...so again WHY did he chose to interfere?? if he wanted anyone to use the freedom of their minds, to judge for themselves..then why interfere?
And to further my question...how come he only interfered with them...why or were was he, when others throughout have been held prisoner and tortured to death by ie - terrorists...how come he didnt interfere to help these people??
its something I can't understand, so wondered if anyone else can?
IAMS made sense when he says that God doesnt interfere for the reasons to give use a right to chose and make use of the freedom we have in our minds................but that bible story dont make sense nor does it connect with what IAMS has said
This may seem to be a tough one...but hey it gets you thinking...
Hope no one see's this as me being too negative..im just posting up something that boggles the mind..wondering if anyone has any feedback
thanks
IAMS made sense when he said this, because it explains as to WHY people do all sorts of things, good or bad, it's all about making choices...therefore God will NOT interfere and send REAL EVIDENCE that he really does exist, cuz that would only defeat the purpose of your own freedom of choice
SO, I was thinking of this..........
MOSES & the Pharaoh
The story of how Moses wanted the pharaoh to set his people free, and the pharaoh was not going to give in to Moses and his demands.
To cut a long story short, God did (according to the bible)...in fact interfere, by showing real evidence he was for real, and does exist.
Here's how... - When the Pharaoh refused to set the people free, it was Moses that told the Pharaoh, that if he does not set his people free, that God will send 10 plagues. (you all know how it goes lol)
Now that is real evidence...I mean if you were in the shoes of the Pharaoh, and seen the nasty work of all 10 plagues..then is not a coincidence (or ten) ...not that no way...that sh*t is something else...and does spell evidence of God...Moses told him that God will send the plagues..if the pharoah didnt set the people free...pity 1st born innocent babies had to suffer but still evidence of God
So...why do you think God interfered back then?? Why did he send plague like he told mosses he would do...knowing that once these plagues happened just as God said..then that itself is real evidence that God exists...so again WHY did he chose to interfere?? if he wanted anyone to use the freedom of their minds, to judge for themselves..then why interfere?
And to further my question...how come he only interfered with them...why or were was he, when others throughout have been held prisoner and tortured to death by ie - terrorists...how come he didnt interfere to help these people??
its something I can't understand, so wondered if anyone else can?
IAMS made sense when he says that God doesnt interfere for the reasons to give use a right to chose and make use of the freedom we have in our minds................but that bible story dont make sense nor does it connect with what IAMS has said
This may seem to be a tough one...but hey it gets you thinking...
Hope no one see's this as me being too negative..im just posting up something that boggles the mind..wondering if anyone has any feedback
thanks
What we need to realize is that God and his actions are different for all people- are wants, desires, even motivation all different, but the message of God is unity through the process of belief, like the constutions of nation statements are made to show a unity in what is defined as our nation. God wants us to help ourselves find who we are and pursue those desire, but also to rejoice in the idea it is of him too. I'm sure people will start getting negitive on that for example what if i want to kill etc... no of course that is not what i mean, and futhermore although i love animals it makes me sick that people take care of animals and leave them millions in wills etc... while people suffer, but that is something within the rights of themseves and admired by God. Is there a difference in those words that you can understand?
QUOTE(sharcmartuchi @ Jul 11 2007, 05:41 PM)
What we need to realize is that God and his actions are different for all people- are wants, desires, even motivation all different, but the message of God is unity through the process of belief, like the constutions of nation statements are made to show a unity in what is defined as our nation. God wants us to help ourselves find who we are and pursue those desire, but also to rejoice in the idea it is of him too. I'm sure people will start getting negitive on that for example what if i want to kill etc... no of course that is not what i mean, and futhermore although i love animals it makes me sick that people take care of animals and leave them millions in wills etc... while people suffer, but that is something within the rights of themseves and admired by God. Is there a difference in those words that you can understand?
If God wants us to understand everything for ourselves..then why did he bother to interfere back then....it dont make sense....the people back then, when it comes to faith are no different than now...you either believe or not believe...back then they had false gods too...no different than present day
thats why i dont believe in that story of Mosses
^Did you read my earlier response, BM? I think I explained the matter. He had reasons to turn up and interfere back then, God has no reason today to appear before us.
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Jul 12 2007, 02:48 PM)
^Did you read my earlier response, BM? I think I explained the matter. He had reasons to turn up and interfere back then, God has no reason today to appear before us.
Sorry PA...I missed it...i'll go read it now
PA...thanks for that
One thing that puzzels me....
I dont recall ever reading about the pharoah having his own magicians that created the same kind of illusions that mosses did...well if God was all-knowing then shouldnt have God have known this and KNOWN how the pharoah would have looked at it and seen them as just illusions?? why go to all of that trouble if thats the case?? and geeee killing innocent lil babies is NOT the anser...to kill those who are innocent, just to set those slaves free is not a sign of a God that is all loving. All God had to do, if he felt the need to interfere, was to set the slaves free himself without all that killing....I am an imperfect being myself and even i can figure out a better way...god is a perfect being, so I dont believe he would sink as low. Children need to experience life PA just as we do, God created children for that purpose - to experience life, so I cant understand his reasons to kill them all because he wanted to convince this pharoah to change his mind and harden his heart. If I knew that God had my child killed because some terrorist was holding prisioners, i wouldnt worship him anymore.
However saying all of that PA...God didnt need to harden his heart...he didnt need to interfere at all....it was all about setting a number of slaves free, only to wander the desert for 40 years <--when you look at it like that, it seems pointless....
God should have stayed out of it, cuz after alll, he stays well out of things that are a lot more harsher and wicked in present day....
I believe you and IAMSwhen you say - god wants us to chose our own path, therefore he will not interfer....this does make sense to me PA...but thats it, the rest dont add up to me
I see God as all loving and all knowing...to me God is not a killer..........to me - all loving actually means all loving...the commandment - thou shalt not kill actually means do not kill anyone...and God would lead by example, just like a parent would do..leading by example...hope you understand
PA sorry for missing your long post lol...I think I just read one in a hurry and posted...didnt mean to miss you out...thanks for reminding me
One thing that puzzels me....
I dont recall ever reading about the pharoah having his own magicians that created the same kind of illusions that mosses did...well if God was all-knowing then shouldnt have God have known this and KNOWN how the pharoah would have looked at it and seen them as just illusions?? why go to all of that trouble if thats the case?? and geeee killing innocent lil babies is NOT the anser...to kill those who are innocent, just to set those slaves free is not a sign of a God that is all loving. All God had to do, if he felt the need to interfere, was to set the slaves free himself without all that killing....I am an imperfect being myself and even i can figure out a better way...god is a perfect being, so I dont believe he would sink as low. Children need to experience life PA just as we do, God created children for that purpose - to experience life, so I cant understand his reasons to kill them all because he wanted to convince this pharoah to change his mind and harden his heart. If I knew that God had my child killed because some terrorist was holding prisioners, i wouldnt worship him anymore.
However saying all of that PA...God didnt need to harden his heart...he didnt need to interfere at all....it was all about setting a number of slaves free, only to wander the desert for 40 years <--when you look at it like that, it seems pointless....
God should have stayed out of it, cuz after alll, he stays well out of things that are a lot more harsher and wicked in present day....
I believe you and IAMSwhen you say - god wants us to chose our own path, therefore he will not interfer....this does make sense to me PA...but thats it, the rest dont add up to me
I see God as all loving and all knowing...to me God is not a killer..........to me - all loving actually means all loving...the commandment - thou shalt not kill actually means do not kill anyone...and God would lead by example, just like a parent would do..leading by example...hope you understand
PA sorry for missing your long post lol...I think I just read one in a hurry and posted...didnt mean to miss you out...thanks for reminding me
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