Hi BM, just so you know, there is an example in Exodus 7 where this happens:

The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "When Pharaoh says to you, 'Perform a miracle,' then say to Aaron, 'Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh,' and it will become a snake."

So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. (Ex 7:8-12)

The wise men and sorcerers could do the same miracle/trick as Moses, but Moses (well, technically Aaron) was better, with their snake/staff eating all the other snakes.

*boldened relevant quotes*
But the entire point of my post was that God's purpose was not to set the Israelites free. God's purpose in all of this was to herald the future coming of Jesus when Jesus would be the Passover Lamb. God's main purpose was to institute another step in his plan for salvation. The Passover Lamb, the lamb that was slain to keep the households safe, this was the purpose, because this is one of the events that were fulfilled in the New Testament through Jesus. Jesus could not fulfil the Passover and become our Passover Lamb if Passover never existed. God hardened Pharaoh's heart for this purpose. He brought the plagues for this purpose. The entire event was about a lot more (a hell of a lot more) than the releasing of a few slaves.

As an aside, you did bring up an interesting point about wandering the desert. I believe this is again about the promises of God heralding to Jesus, but that would again take us off topic.

No worries, I'm glad you could take the time to read it I know you are trying to understand my point, I hope I have made things a little clearer. The releasing of the slaves was not the main reason for the plagues, the tenth plague was the most important because it was a herald to God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ. An Orthodox Jew will tell you differently, of course. I'm just giving the way I see it. Most events in the Old testament are a herald to Jesus and God's plan of salvation. Most events point to Jesus and relate to him in some way. It is why the Old Testament is such an important part of Christian text and it is why I cringe whenever I read or hear someone say 'the Old testament is useless except to give us background information'. Without the Old Testament it is impossible to fully understand the New Testament...... sorry, I'm going on a bit of an off-topic rant now Apologies.

~ PA

From my understanding it was the follow up on a promise already made to the Hebrews as stated on Moses's first trip up the mountain, not because of some plan to put up a sign for future events to be noticed.

Excuse my ignorance a sec PA...but Jesus didnt come to long long after Mosses time on earth, the people then were long gone before Jesus is said to arrive...I dont understand how that has anything to do with it

Killing is not the answer to it...Killing of the innocent is never the answer...we as humans that want to live in peace...all tend to agree that killing is never the answer

The killing of all first born males was also done by King Herod...this makes me feel that the writes of the bible, made it look like some biblical trend!!!



Ohh i see LOL thanks for clearing that part up for me PA...but as I said before, if God was all knowing then he would have known that the pharoah would have just saw all of these plagues as illusions as he had his own magic men that could preform the same

From the Christian point of view, BM, everything that occurs in the Old Testament is a pointer to Jesus. From the very beginning of creation, God had a plan. This plan was to bring people into a right relationship with him. He didn't create Adam and Eve and then suddenly realise he stuffed up and so had to implement a "Plan B". This was in God's plan from the very beginning. Everything that happens in the Old Testament was building up to the life and sacrifice of Jesus. Back in Genesis 12, God makes promises to Abraham, one of these being that from him, one person will be born through whom the whole world will be blessed. This was a prophecy of Jesus, Christians believe. The events of the Passover were moulded to become a part of Israelite society. This in turn was a herald of Jesus' sacrifice to save us. The wandering in the desert for 40 years was another herald of how Jesus was the true Israelite (he didn't forsake God, while the Israelites did).

I know Jesus didn't come until long after the Exodus. However, God's plan has been in motion since the very beginning of Time itself. He's not improvisation, hoping things work out for the best. From the Christian point of view, another part of the plan was put in place on Passover, with the full impact (Jesus' sacrifice) not being known until thousands of years later.

I know this is off topic...but it seems pretty pointless for gods plan to create two humans..to make them breed for hundreds of years then destroy the earth with a flood...only to start again with Noah...that dont sound like much of a plan....sorry!!

^You're right, it is a tad off topic, but not completely irrelevant. If you look at the bigger picture of the Bible, after Adam and Even, the story of Cain and Abel, the flood, and the Tower of Babel all show a particular element of God's plan. I'll tell ya what, I'll start a new thread for ya, with a little information that I think might help you

ha ha i dont think you meant to repeat the same line twice lol but yea start a new thread...this could be intresting

^hehe, that whole "double line" thing was because my silly internet froze and resent the same information. But for your information, BM, I've started the thread HERE in the Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs board. It didn't seem as if it would be a topic that would gain a lot of heated skeptic-style debates. Hope you enjoy the read. It's nearly 3am here, so I'm sure i've made a mess of writing it, but I'd been meaning to post that thread for a while, and your post just gave me the impetus to do it.

All the best, BM.

~ PA

I don't see how that can be.
I chose not to believe in god, and according to the bible I'm going to go to hell for it.
So why should I be "punished" for a choice that god supposedly lets me make for myself, not much of an incentive for free thought now is it?

Sounds like you're not willing to take responsibility for your actions. If you commit a crime it's your decision to do so right? But yet, just because you decided to commit the crime does not excuse you from paying for it, in fact, if anything, the fact that you chose to do something should also make you more accepting of the fact that you also own the consequences. What's different here?


BM, I believe that God interfered at that time because it's part of His overall plan. Think about it, at some point we will all stand before God and explain our actions. Knowing how humans are, I believe there will be very few who will immediately say, "You're right. I chose to disobey you and then I chose not to accept your forgiveness, I deserve whatever I get because that's what I chose," most people will try to make some sort excuse:

When they say, "You didn't make yourself visible to me, so I didn't know you were really there, so how could you expect me to ask you for forgiveness? You should have made yourself visible to me," God will point to Adam and Eve, and say, "I actually walked with them in the Garden every day, and they still chose to disobey, and you are just like them, so you would also have disobeyed."

When they say, "You didn't show me how powerful you are, I had no visible proof that you were there, so how could you expect me to ask you for forgiveness and seek a personal relationship with you? You should have shown me your power," God will turn to the Israelites who were freed from slavery in Egypt and say, "I sent plagues to Egypt to show my power. I traveled with them as a tower of smoke during the day and at night I stood over them as a pillar of fire, and yet, a soon as their leader, Moses left them for a few days, they made a statue of an animal to worship. You are just like them, you also would still have chosen to disobey, and you would still have rebelled and had the choice to refuse to seek forgiveness."

When they say, "You don't know what it's like to be human. If I knew you had hunger and fear and felt pain and temptation, then I would know you understood me and I would have followed you," then He would point to the people who saw Jesus and say, "They saw me hungry and they saw me afraid, and feel pain, and temptation, AND they saw me perform miracles, cast out demons, and share wisdom and yet, the vast majority of them did not follow me. You are just like them, you also would still have had the opportunity not to follow me and may have decided not to just like them."

If you choose not to believe in God, why would you then expect, if He turns out to be real that He would force you to live with Him eternally?

So you're equating not believing in god to committing a crime?
Why should the consequence of utilizing my supposedly god given right of free thought be eternal damnation?

^Because were it not, there would be less incentive to believe in that God.
This is of course open to alternative answers...

I was equating making the choice not to believe in God to making the choice to commit a crime simply because I was trying to show that both decisions lead to a point where you have to answer for your choice.

It's not the choosing to utilize it, you really have no choice in utilizing your free will, but all decision have consequences, why are you not willing to accept the consequences?

"I could reveal myself, but then no one would burn in hell." - God

I don't know... I keep hearing over and over that god is all loving, tolerant and embracing and yet that nagging fact still remains there is a hell.

You're thinking like a liberal again K. Decisions have consequences.

I don't know... From what you god has done and yet you still worship him... I think that makes you even more liberal then me on that area. Maybe a step further to ultra-bleeding heart liberal who puts up with anything just for the hope that others will change...

Why would he do anything but that?

Assuming the belief is true, the only confirmation he's given us regarding his existence is a book written by other humans. Does he truly expect every human to believe in his existence based on that? If he does, he's forcing us lowly humans to neglect the brains we've been blessed with, to be stripped of all self-respect that we have by denying everything that we've learned on our own accord.

In short: If I choose not to be indoctrinated by Christian humans then God thinks badly of me. That's just great. Although personally I think he'd instead praise those who make use of the enquiring mind he granted us. Or is that another test, too?

I'm going to carry on disbelieving in that omnipotent, omniscient, arrogant fool until he grants me the respect I deserve, and gives me reason to believe in him.

WOW

Ahh good..thanks PA....I clicked on it and wondered why i felt weird...it was as if I was out of my confort zone....after posting you a question about the pattern...I made an exit and soon realized i WAS out of my confort zone...I was in the Religion & Beliefs board goodness me LOL I couldnt click fast enough to get back here LOL ...I just feel weird on other boards lol

I will only go there for that opic though


Thanks for that