Well thank you, I was looking for some more decent evidence... However I think it would be best to research your sources as well, try to find out more of the backgrounds of the writers of your quotes and sources and images. Are they reliable, trustworthy? Are they well regarded by the scientific/historical/philosophic community? I will do do some research on them if I can too.

I'm still trying to piece together how all of this fits into one caste of society trying to rule the world. IMO it seems too far-fetched to me, honestly. Sorry if I joked about it earlier... I know its true that religion has of course tried to control the masses in the past and still does, but not to an immense degree that Zeitgeist tries to claim. We can all find our little religious study groups and such. Mine in fact was created for the purpose of not being controlled by corrupt religious leaders and becoming the servants of a human organization rather than Christ (to put it simply).

To ask you a more personal question(s), in your opinion, or in anyone's opinion that wishes to answer this, how do you think the world will let this happen? How would it tolerate Satanism and horrific rituals, mass murders, one world order and such? Will it happen like the Nazi regime and holocaust where we would all be persuaded to become monsters or would there always be a resistance to protect freedom and morals? i would fight against atrocities like this, wouldn't you? Wouldn't most of the world? I'd like to hear some opinions.

the question should be- "why" is the world letting it happen? bush's unconstitutional treasonist war waged through media manipulation and fascist force with the 9/11 inside job has claimed a million lives already--when is the world going to stop it? in fact i see inflation the likes history has yet to witness and a bubble that will pop with atomic force in a sadistic neogenocide bloodbath

Good point actually...my answer to that question would be because we the people have absolutely no power over it, Bush is the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces and he can do whatever he likes with the ultimate power in his hands. With the most advanced technology and trained warriors thinking they are fighting for a good cause, the alliance of superpowers is unstoppable. The only powerful enough resistance is already allied with this nation. Hopefully the upcoming change in administration will be enough to start heading things in another, better, direction. Its sad to see a nation once based on Liberty is becoming just another Empire in the history of the Earth. Doomed to fall eventually, but others will rise

Even if most of Zeitgeist is untrue, you still have to look at what's actually going on, right now. Somehow, more bills are being approved that keep taking away constitutional rights. Somehow, we are still fighting a war that has been proven a worthless fight. It doesn't matter how many actual enemies are killed, if someone want to blow something up in the USA, it's going to happen. It hasn't happened because no-one wants to. If you seriously look at the situation of the war in Iraq, you'll realize how evil it is. We've actually killed more civilians, by a longshot, than supposed terrorists. The media throws in our faces how many U.S soldiers are dying, but never says, due to the face that the government doesn't report or allow it, how many civilians or enemy soldiers that we've killed. It's late, and I'm not going to research exact ratios, but Iraqi deaths are something around 160X the amount of that of American lives. Not enemy soldiers, but civilians.

From what I've read of the main posters in this topic, it seems like they have some pre-created agenda, or are heavily biased from their religious beliefs.

One thing I have to say about the entire Zeitgeist film is that it is biased. There is no quotes or thoughts from anyone but the other conspiracy theorists. The movie needs to show both sides of the story, which it fails to do so. They will never make a decent argument if they never balance both sides of evidence and claims.

hey check out this site, its really well done. It looks like the makers of this movie fell for some pretty easily disproved misinfo
http://www.preventingtruthdecay.org/zeitgeistpartone.shtml
(the navigation bar on the right is how you find the different points)

Excellent discussion, gentlemen. I learned a lot. I posted about it here. I reference this thread mainly:

http://www.nelsonguirado.com/index.php/rel...st_bunk_debunke

You referenced this site entirely. Might as well just put the link on your page without writing anything since you spent your whole rant bad mouthing the movie along with its producers and claiming that it "is one big, fat lie" without one shred of evidence.

"Wasting time on conspiracy theories distracts from real problems and prevents legitimate solutions."

Your "debunking" rant was a complete waste of time and doesn't add anything to the defense of the "debunkers".

I used this for the debunking and made some additional points about people who don't like the reality in which they live because it doesn't conform to their ideology. I wanted to know why people were so eager to believe unlikely lies. I think it's a worthy topic.

The debunking on this site was more thorough than anything I had time to do. The replies to the debunking were sad to such an extreme that I question the anti-debunkers' sanity.

All I have to say is the following:
I'm amazed at the number of people who can look at religion and go "wow that's incredibly dumb and fake how can anyone believe in that", while at the same time going "I watched these movies called Loose Change and Zeitgeist and now I believe that our government is evil and killed 3000 of its own citizens for some yet-to-be proven or executed top-secret NWO plot that involves pres. Bush despite the fact that nothing of significance to this 'plot' has happened in the past 6 years and he'll be out of office very soon."

Also, Zeitgeist out and out lies about the Income Tax Law. If you rewatch that part, you'll notice that the two ex-employees of the IRS never once said "I haven't paid taxes in [x] years", they simply said "I haven't FILED A CLAIM in [x] years". Yay, good job, you're not getting a refund, I know potheads who accomplish the same thing every year.

And straight from the IRS website(http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/articl...=106507,00.html):
"D. Contention: The Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution was not properly ratified, thus the federal income tax laws are unconstitutional.

This argument is based on the premise that all federal income tax laws are unconstitutional because the Sixteenth Amendment was not officially ratified, or because the State of Ohio was not properly a state at the time of ratification. This argument has survived over time because proponents mistakenly believe that the courts have refused to address this issue.

The Law: The Sixteenth Amendment provides that Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on income, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration. U.S. Const. Amend. XVI. The Sixteenth Amendment was ratified by forty states, including Ohio, and issued by proclamation in 1913. Shortly thereafter, two other states also ratified the Amendment. Under Article V of the Constitution, only three-fourths of the states are needed to ratify an Amendment. There were enough states ratifying the Sixteenth Amendment even without Ohio to complete the number needed for ratification. Furthermore, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the income tax laws enacted subsequent to ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment in Brushaber v. Union Pacific R.R., 240 U.S. 1 (1916). Since that time, the courts have consistently upheld the constitutionality of the federal income tax."

income is defined as profit and when you work you are not profitting but equally exchanging your labor for compensation-- everyone needs to learn the truth about the illegal and unconstitutional criminally imposed income tax-- here is info to get you started in divorcing yourself from your social security and more importantlty the unconstitutional tax illegally "forced" on unwitting individuals--

Ok maybe I agree with you on certain things, anything that we don't agree on is merely for the fact that we all have different backgrounds and experiences.

Firstly, Christ was a man like anyone else and whatever his story was as a person it must be recognised that his name has been sullied and benefitted from by the different branches of occidental religion. Who I think we can all safely say are merely agents of public order through "spirituality". Therefore christ's story has been misinterpreted and his image remoulded to suit the needs of someone for something.
I don't understand what you find so offensive about the fact that someone uses some historical theories to sum up a situation. The film doesn't say at any moment that Horus is jesus in real terms or that neither existed at all, they are merely explaining that the sun was and maybe still is highly worshipped by some people. Maybe as a kind of religion or cult within itself. And that maybe all of the so called chosen ones through history, have been casually "chosen" or kidnapped to represent the sun. As an excuse for these occultist beliefs to somehow subliminally maintain themselves within our social religious belief structure. Thus, keeping the same group of worshipper's or bloodlines at the top of our social hierarchy throughout history.
My own personal belief is that people such as christ, budha etc were all just people who listened to thier hearts and heard the one universal truth that few people stop to even try listen to. To find happiness within one's self and to contact higher parts of our own awareness and through ourselves travel the universe. The man that even tries to invent such a word as "religion"; to define such a natural thing as the fact we are all part of everything. Just goes to show how little that man understood in the first place. Therefore it is obvious that he should give things material metaphors and create dogmas and offer a false protection to the weaker ones, when it is only he that really provides the fear in the first place. He even has the audacity to talk of a God that will create you and throw you into a pit if you follow your heart and do what you want to do. Although it sounds as though I am referring to our current political situation, I am in fact talking about the church and religion. Maybe they are the same thing. I think they probably are.
So if this film talks about religion and then about politics as a way of proving a very valid point. Which is that we are all being taken for a ride. Then just accept it and respect the point of view. Don't ever think that something like this would take the spotlight away from what most of us all believe, know and work for. Freedom and truth has many ways of being expressed. You will also admit that the film states that when we all forget about these powers and their lies and learn to get on with our own lives in a real way then all this power will simply come crashing down. Because really it was us that put it there in the first place.

PEACE.

Not according to many dictionaries. It may be one definition but usually not the first.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/income
from dictionary.com


from the American Heritage Dictionary


from the Online Etymology Dictionary


from the Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary


from the American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy


from Investopedia


It seems many people think of income as the money received in excahnge for labor. The definition even predates the US.

the irs willnot and cannot publicly define "income",which is NOT wages,or it will be exposed--
did you watch zeitgeist? or arron russo's america freedom to fascism? regaurdless... the amendment,that was never ratified,would only encompass corporations and not individuals

I think what matters the most here is what the U.S. gov't defines 'profit' as. There's a reason that no one has successfully danced around this law without criminal conviction. Both ex IRS employees I just found out actually DID stop paying their taxes, however, they were convicted, I can provide a link if anybody wants, I'm just too lazy to go find it right now. Bill Benson too has spent time in prison and to this day hasn't once convinced any lawmaker that his case is solid.

uh yeah there are criminal judges that are acting outside the authority vested in them by the constitution when they deny people like ed and elain or the agents mentioned a "fair trial"-- thats why i included the piece on local activism-- until people take a stand like ed and elaine or rea copitka and loma wharton and expose the criminal officials they will keep pushing the boundaries of what they can get away with further and further-- my god theyve already enslaved us with a fiat currency,assasinated a president in front of our eyes,manufactured two world wars and perpetrated the false flag operation known as 9/11 JUST TO LUBE THE MEAT GRINDER in a war for profit and a fascist agenda!

wow cool, i just posted the movie the other day, didnt know this was here, it will be cool to see the debunk claims, nice one, am very interested

WOW, bravo, very well said


Those links look cool, i am definately gona check them out cheers


I shall check this out too, i got visitors this weekend but that zeitgeist blew my head off at the time, and so i am JUST as interested in anything that relates whether in support of or against.

I do need to say, that the religious stuff at the beginning seemed kinda seperate from the rest, although there was the zodiac stuff i didnt feel it told me anything new, that people throughout history used the bible to manipulate the population to gain power and control...i have always thought this...but if i have been misinformed about the zodiac stuff then i am interested in the links you provided...i reckon Jesus did exist and he was a prophet...but i did not see how the film was saying that he didnt exist, i didnt see what they were saying as a put down to jesus or God but perhaps that is because i chose not to.

What about the rest of the film though?...i thought this thread was gona debunk all of that stuff too...or is it a kinda, if the jesus stuff isnt accurate then none of it can be type of point...well, this is more than possible and could be assumed on a sort of consequential principle...then again, i just thought, anything to do with "really" far back historical origin is ALWAYS gona be scrutinised, cause the further back you go, the less evidence and so the more possibilities there are to fill the gaps, so it all comes down to a matter of faith...then again, as i say, i have my personal intuitions and beliefs, and i just found that beginning stuff to be an interesting perspective that made alot of sense, and the rest resonated with so may things i have felt for a long time, i look forward to reading them links you gave when my visitors leave after the weekend

anyway, NICE ONE, cheers

nn23

ps...sorry if this is stuff that this thread has already covered , i dont really have time to look through, but just wanted to contribute my immediate thoughts and quieries anyway, if anyone wants to give me a link to where my questions have already been answered within the thread rather than actually answering them then i am cool with that...NICE ONE!

the new testament was a work of fiction created as a personification of the sun-- jesus is nothing more than a "comic book" hero that never existed-- if he had existed we would be learning about him in school during history class but there is a bonafide reason we dont

after all this in this thread you can say this with a straight face? at the very least you have to concede that this premise is nothing more than opinion in which proof is sought but never presented. you can SAY this but SHOWING us this using actually historical evidence still eludes the haters (thanks for the term myspace)

I have been very offended by this movie and have been trying to track down the makers. The name that keeps coming up in other forums is Peter Thorpe, who is a writer from what I understand.... I dont know- can find much about him but the creator of Zeitgeist is a man named Peter Thorpe it seems.

Thumbs down to Peter Thorpe!

GOOD POST! hOWEVER The problem with Christianity (in the U.S.) is that they have kept these morons pretty much in power. (Republicans who are the slaves to Zionists)
The republican party uses "christian values" as their trump card to get elected and stay in power. It's all a phony game.What they say and what they really are doing are two different things. They work for mega corporations,banks,contractors and themselves nothing else. Public servants don't exist anymore- if they ever even did ?
But I think american christians are becoming painfully aware that they have been duped and used. Isreal has a future purpose for evangelical christianity- after all the "messiah" is supposed to re-appear there. Very convenient for the Zionists, is it not ?
I agree with alot of what Zeitgeist is trying to show us. You should see how totally different the network/news -CNN Europe is from CNN-USA !! It's totally tapered to influence the mindset of that country and whatever /whoever deems what is appropriate and what news get out. (Europe being more honest in reporting-they don't want to get the americans even more pissed off). The U.S. is going through a "rude awakening" -a few have been wide-awake. I really believe they have been too busy being "entertained" and dummed down. Europe has been following in our footsteps but are starting to use the emergency brakes lately. The U.S. is not an "ideal" anymore to follow.

Try looking up Zeitgeist in wikipedia. It's been deleted !!

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Statement from maker of Zeitgeist (in film)



Zeitgeist was created as a non-profit filmiac expression to inspire people to start looking at the world
from a more critical perspective and to understand that very often things are not what the
population at large think they are. The information in Zeitgeist was established over a year long period
of research and the current Source page on this site lists the basic sources used / referenced.
Soon, an Interactive Transcript will be online with detailed footnotes and links so exact sources
and further research can be relayed.

Now, it's important to point out that there is a tendency to simply disbelieve things that are
counter to our understanding, without the necessary research performed.
For example, some information contained in Part 1 and Part 3, specifically, is not obtained
by simple keyword searches on the Internet. You have to dig deeper. For instance,
very often people who look up "Horus" or "The Federal Reserve" on the Internet
draw their conclusions from very general or biased sources. Online encyclopedias or text book
Encyclopedias often do not contain the information contained in Zeitgeist. However, if one takes
the time to read the sources provided, they will find that what is being presented is
based on documented evidence. Any corrections, clarifications & further points regarding the film
are found on the Clarifications page.

That being said, It is my hope that people will not take what is said
in the film as the truth, but find out for themselves, for truth is not told, it is realized.

Thank You

Sources:

PART 1

* Special thanks to Acharya S for her consultation for this section*
Massey, Gerald - The Historic Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree
Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning Book Tree, 1998
Acharya S - The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press
Massey, Gerald - Ancient Egypt: Light of the World, Kessinger Publishing
Churchward, Albert -The Origin and Evolution of Religion, The Book Tree
Acharya S - Suns of God, Adventures Unlimited Press
Murdock, D.M. - Who was Jesus?, Steller House Publishing
Allegro, John - The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, Prometheus Books
Frazer, Sir James: The Golden Bough, Touchstone Pub., 1890
Maxwell, Tice, Snow - That Old Time Religion, The Book Tree
Rolleston, Frances: Mazzaroth, Rivingtons, Waterloo Place, 1862
Cumont, Franz: Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans Cosimo Classics 1912
King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman
Fideler, David: Jesus Christ, Sun of God Quest Books, 1993
Berry, Gerald: Religions Of The World, Barnes & Noble Pub., 1965
Leedom, Tim C - The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read, TS Books
Paine, Thomas - The Age of Reason
Wheless, Joseph: Forgery in Christianity: A Documented Record of the Foundations of the Christian Religion 1930
Remsburg, John E. - The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence, Prometheus Books
Massey, Gerald - Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Mysteries of Amenta, Kessinger Publishing
Irvin, Jan & Rutajit, Andrew - Astrotheology and Shamanism, The Book Tree
Doherty, Earl - The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ?, Age of Reason Pub.
Campbell, Joseph - Creative Mythology: The Masks of God, Penguin
Doane, T.W. - Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, Health Research
Maxwell, Jordan: The Light of World (Film Series) IRES
Singh, Madanjeet: The Sun- Symbol of Power and Life, UNESCO, 1993
Flemming, Brian: The God Who Wasn't There (Film) 2005
The Naked Truth (Film) IRES
Jackson, John G. : Christianity Before Christ, American Atheist Press, 1985

PART 2
Griffin, David Ray - 911 The Myth and the Reality
Ruppert, Michael -The Truth and Lies of 9-11
Berger, Michael - Improbable Collapse
Avatar, LLC - 911 Mysteries
Hilder, Anthony J.- Illuminazi 911
Mugford, Dustin - September 11th Revisited
vonKleist, Dave - 911 In Plane Site
Hufschmid, Eric - Painful Deceptions
Rodriguez, William - What really happened on 9/11?
Zwicker, Barrie - 911 The Great Conspiracy
Duffy, John - 911 Press For Truth
Jones, Alex - Martial Law 9/11
Jones, Alex - TerrorStorm
Hilder, Anthony J.-The Greatest Lie Ever Sold
Avery, Dylan - Loose Change 2nd Edition
Humphrey, George - 911 The Great Illusion


** Important Reference Books **
Ruppert, Michael - Crossing the Rubicon, New Society Publishers
Griffin, David Ray - The New Pearl Harbor, Interlink
Griffin, David Ray - Debunking 9/11 Debunking, Olive Branch Press
Tarpley, Webster - 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA, Progressive Press
Griffin, David Ray -The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions And Distortions, Olive Branch Press
Marrs, Jim - The Terror Conspiracy: Deception, 9/11 and the Loss of Liberty, Disinformation Company


PART 3
Perloff, James - The Shadows of Power, Western Islands
Marrs, Jim - Rule by Secrecy, Harper Paperbacks
Dye, Thomas R. - The Irony of Democracy, Wadsworth Publishing
Greider, William - Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country, Simon & Schuster
F.D.R.: His Personal Letters, Duell/Sloan/Pearce
Allen, Frederick Lewis - "Morgan The Great"/ Life Magazine - 4/25/1949
Simpson, Colin - The Lusitania, Little Brown
Pool, James - Who Financed Hitler: the Secret Funding... ,Pocket Books
Epperson, Ralph A. -The Unseen Hand
Sutton, Anthony C. - Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler, G S G & Associates Pub
Sutton, Anthony C. - The Federal Reserve Conspiracy, G S G & Associates Pub
Allen, Gary - The Rockefeller File, 76 Pr
Lundberg, Ferdinand - America's Sixty Families, Citidell Press
Mcfadden, Louis - On the Federal Reserve, Congressional Record 1934
Allen, Gary - The Bankers , Conspiratorial Origins of the Federal Reserve, American Opinion
Larson, Martin - The Federal Reserve
House, Edward Mandell -The Intimate Papers Of Colonel House, Kessinger Publishing
Sutton, Anthony C. - Wall Street and FDR, Arlington House
Wilson, Woodrow - The New Freedom
Russo, Aaron - America: Freedom To Fascism (film)
Iserbyt, Charlotte Thompson - The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America, 3d Research Co
Stinnett, Robert - Day Of Deceit, Free Press
Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America, spp.gov
Jaikaran, Jacques S. - Debt Virus, Glenbridge Publishing
Benson, Bill -The Law That Never Was
Griffin, G. Edward, The Creature from Jekyll Island, American Media
Grace Commision Report - 1984 - Reagan Admin


VOICE CREDITS
( in order )

OVERTURE
Jordan Maxwell - The Inner World of the Occult Lecture
George Carlin - You are all Diseased (1999)

PART 1
Bill Hicks - Revelations (1993)
Jordan Maxwell - The Light of the World, IRES

PART 2
David Ray Griffin - 911 The Myth and the Reality
Jordan Maxwell - Interview from "The Greatest Lie Ever Sold"

PART 3
John F. Kennedy Speech - The President and the Press, 1961
Lyndon Larouche - 2005 Webcast
Jordan Maxwell - Matrix of Power
Aaron Russo - Radio Interview with Alex Jones

ENDING
Tim Galloway - Winstar Lecture, 1984
Dr. Richard Albert - Interview, 1967
Carl Sagan - from Cosmos Video Series
Bill Hicks - Revelations, 1993
David Icke - UK Lecture, 1995

Clarifications and Corrections:

[ Regarding the "Official Release" on Google Video ]

15:25-15:27
The December 25th birthday denoted to Jesus Christ, as stated by the narration, is not written in the Bible, although it is practiced traditionally. However, this date, known in the Pagan world for the birth of the 'Sun God' at the Winter Solstice, is in fact implied by the astronomical symbolism during the birth sequence.
More on this point will be addressed in the Interactive Transcript.

53:56-53:59
The text reads:
["Collapse Characteristics of World T. Center 1, 2 & 7 fit the Controlled Demolition Model Exactly"]
-WTC 7 fits the C.D. model exactly, however Towers 1 and 2 were, in fact, EXPLOSIONS rather than implosions. The means of the demolition of Towers 1 and 2 would be considered "unconventional". The free fall speed; collapse "into its own footprint" and other such goals of controlled demolition, are however confluent.

1:04:09 -1:04:16
The video here is of the Madrid Bombings of 2004, not the London Bombings of 2005.
It is used as a creative expression and example.

1:23:35 -1:23:38
There are 2 errors stated in the narration, one computational, the other technical.
1) It should say: (correction in italics) "Roughly 25% of the average worker's income is taken via this tax"
[According the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average US salary is about $36,000
which translates to a 25% Federal Income Tax. * 35% is the high tax bracket ]
2) This 25% is not a flat tax against the entire income of that single person for the year.
Rather, the tax is "graduated". In other words, it is a generalization to say "25% is taxed", where as there are 2 tax rate brackets under this one, and income is taxed based on each bracket combined, in a graduated manner. Consequently, the statement "you work 3 months out of the year..." is not accurate as it would be less than that in light of the "graduated" nature.

1:27.35-1:27:40:
There is a statement error in the narration. It should say: (correction in italics)
-"J.D. Rockefeller made 200 million dollars off of it [WWI]. That's about 1.9 Billion by today's standards"
[It was stated as "1.9 Trillion", which was misspoken and intended to have been read "Billion", not "Trillion".
Note: Based on the Consumer Price Index (not the GDP used initially), this conversion can also be figured
at about 3 Billion dollars]

1:17:14-1:17:20:
The narration states regarding W.Wilson and the Federal Reserve Act:
"Years Later Woodrow Wilson wrote in regret..."
- The notion of "years later" is incorrect. The quote is taken from his book
"The New Freedom" and it was written the same year he signed the Federal Reserve Act.

General Points of Discussion

- In this section I would like to specifically address emails sent in contention of certain points in the work -

Part 1 - The Greatest Story Ever Told

Quote From G. Massey Lectures: The Logia of the Lord, 1900
["It is the commonly accepted orthodox belief that Christianity originated with the life, miracles, sayings, and teachings; the birth, death, resurrection, and ascension of an historic Jesus the Christ at the commencement of our era, called Christian; whereas, the origins were manifold, but mostly concealed. It is impossible to determine anything fundamental by an appeal to the documents which, alone out of a hundred Gospels, were made Canonical. And when Eusebius recorded his memorable boast that he had virtually made "all square" for the Christians, it was an ominous announcement of what had been done to keep out of sight the mythical and mystical rootage of historic Christianity. The Gnostics had been muzzled, and their extant evidences, as far as possible, masked. He and his co-conspirators did their worst in destroying documents and effacing the tell-tale records of the past, to prevent the future from learning what the bygone ages could have said directly for themselves. They made dumb all Pagan voices that would have cried aloud their testimony against the unparalleled imposture then being perfected in Rome. They had almost reduced the first four centuries to silence on all matters of the most vital importance for any proper understanding of the true origins of the Christian Superstition. The mythos having been at last published as a human history everything else was suppressed or forced to support the fraud. Christolatry is founded on the Christ, who is mythical in one phase and mystical in the other; Egyptian (and Gnostic) in both, but historical in neither. "]

Topic 1:
"Primary Sources"
The astrotheological and literary basis for the culmination of the Bible is, of course, a heated discussion, as it often directly interferes with the very identity of the believers of the Judeo-Christian Theology. The core of the arguments presented by those who think the information in Part 1 is unfounded or interpolated, is that the sources that I have used are by poor scholars, who lack association with "primary" sources. I want to clarify this issue by discussing one of my sources, the work of Gerald Massey, who was an Egyptologist who died in 1907. His work was in conjunction with a very prominent Egyptologist and Antiquary, Samuel Birch, an expert on hieroglyphics. Gerald Massey's gift for interpreting metaphoric literature, coupled with Birch's genius for understanding Hieroglyphics led to profound and controversial discoveries regarding information contained in such works as the Egyptian Book for the Dead, The Coffin Texts and the Pyramid texts. These discoveries can be found in Massey masterpieces such as Ancient Egypt, The Light of the World, and A Book of Beginnings. It's worth pointing out that hieroglyphics were not fully understood as a language until the 18/19th centuries, keeping its communications a secret for many 100s of years. Therefore, the staggering Egyptian parallels to the Cult of Equinoctial Christolatry (Christianity) were not well known in the modern age until that time. To understand that the information found isn't just a few points here and there that seem similar, I have uploaded an Appendix from Ancient Egypt, The Light of the World, which reflects a list of Egyptian mythological characteristics which were basically Christianized in the Canonical Gospels and the Book of Revelation. Click Here





I will be adding more information to this Discussion section shortly... Thank You.


http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com

I checked the first link and... well, it is hard to find a polite word strong enough to express my disdain.

Skimming that page I came upon a sentence that began as follows:

"British creation writer Malcolm Bowden is one of a number of reputable scholars..."

Aha! A "creation writer" touted as a reputable scholar? Does "creation writer" mean what I think it means? Let me Google this guy's name and see what comes up...

Ah! Here is an interesting article by Mr. Malcolm Bowden:

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/geocentr.htm

It is entitled: "The Basic Scienfific Arguments for Geocentricity."

And, yes, he IS arguing in this article that the earth is NOT orbiting the sun.

This guy is a "REPUTABLE SCHOLAR"?

No need to waste time looking any further.

Zeitgeist compiled it's similarities from easily assembled public knowledge.

Here is a quote from that "thedivinetruth" (snicker) website:

Do you see the level of bull we are dealing with in this answer??? Here is their rebuttal, broken down into their twisted logic:

Postulate 1: The reliability of a bull statement is directly tied to how many truths are contained therein.
Postulate 2: Only if a piece of bull contains nothing but lies and/or misinformation can it be said to be less than 100% authentic.

THIS IS UTTER HORSE-SHINE!

Let's look at postulate 1. On the face, it might seem to lazy thinkers or, frankly, stupid people, that this makes perfect sense. After all, a story with 9 true statements and 1 conjecture might seem to be at least 90% "reliable" whereas a story with 5 true statements and 5 conjectures might be, at best, 50% reliable. The problem with this is that if the only important statement is conjecture then NOBODY CARES ABOUT THE MINOR SUPPORTING DETAILS.

An example: Last November was very mild in Maryland where I live (TRUE STATEMENT #1). The country was in the final stages of the 2006 mid-term elections (TRUE STATEMENT #2). WHen I went to the polling station, the line was quite long and I had to wait 45 minutes to vote (TRUE STATEMENTS #'s 3 & 4). The long lines were caused by Jesus Christ (CONJECTURE - NO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE OR HISTORICAL REFERENCE). According to your reasoning, this story is at least 80% reliable and, therefore, stupid people should assume that it is quite likely that Jesus Christ caused the long lines.

The counter example: Last November was so incredibly cold in Maryland that icicles were hanging from rafters all summer long (bull #1). Elections were called because the Pope had hemmhoroids (BS #2). I flew to the polling station in my nuclear-powered pogo stick and, even though the lines were long, I skipped to the head of the line (BS #'s 3 & 4). The long lines were caused by Jesus Christ.

Wake up people. Both stories are untrue because neither story contains all truths.

Geez I wonder who debunked it? The same people that debunk every UFU sighting? The movie explained and shed more light into why we the world is so messed up, it just made to much senses, Unless of course you blieve in God, then you will never understand the movie.


If this thread was to prove a movie was debunked, thats far from the case. If this thread was posted cause you are pushing god, it will never work. You can't push your relgious beleifs on anyone. You need to learn where relgion started. The problem is, those that believe in creation, won't read past the bible, that has been changed so manty times. So you good christians keep doing as you are told. Walk around like controlled mindless citizens.

I've studied Qabalah 8 years. I love Zeitgeist Part 1! I've read an assortment of the usual feeble debunkings and been on JREF about it. Whilst the Horus/Jesus links have been shown to be invalid for a long while, it is still the case that the Jesus story is largely symbolically identical with that of many Life/Purgation/Rebirth Heroes of antiquity.

IMO, you're just using this forum as an excuse to try and put out your own beliefs. If you think Jesus ever lived - prove it.

Nick Sandberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus



Yeah. That sounds exactly like The Immaculate Conception. I decided to check your first three facts out, but since they're so far out there and inaccurate, I should have went with my instinct and just written off your C/P as wrong without bothering to check it.

Of course, Wikipedia is probably controlled by The Illuminati and all, and this is just them keeping the truth from the people. Right?

Conspiracy Clothes--

First off, NONE OF THIS IS FACT! These are stories passed down from generation to generation, through translation after translation after translation. There is about as much FACT to any part of this argument as there are wings in an egg yolk!

Second, after getting on the case of Zeitgeist makers for having corrupted sources for the first segment of their film, you listed two main Christian sources as a counter-argument. YOU REFERENCED THE APOLOGISTS FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! Apologists are the people who "prove" that the world is only five million years old, or some other non-sense like that. They're the "scientists" who disseminate misinformation among Christians to convince them to believe that all the planets in the solar system orbit the sun in perfect circles. If you giver credence to Christian Apologists, why should anyone respect your claims? The other source was a website called "thedivineevidence.com"--need I say more? Regardless of whether the claims in Zeitgeist are worthy, you shouldn't back your argument with Christian sources because of their obvious conflict of interest.

The film-makers didn't use wikipedia to do their research. I think it's pretty ignorant to discredit someone because whatever that person ascerted wasn't in accordance with wikipedia, don't you? I'm not saying you're wrong, but wikipedia is not a reliable academic source, no matter what anyone says. I've seen another documentary made years ago that makes the case for the same correlation between Jesus and Horus, but they used another one of Horus's names.

I don't know if anyone on this thread went to college, but I did, and I had to write a thesis for my major--allow me to impart some knowledge on the subject of scholarly works. For any kind of academic work, an author needs to use a mixture of primary, secondary and tertiary sources. Primary sources are considered to be, of course, any type of document or artifact, personal testimony, news publications, and expert opinion. Secondary sources are written in relation to a primary source, and tertiary sources are written in relation to a secondary source. So, a book like The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence by John E. Remsburg would be considered a primary source because Remsburg is an authority in his field of study. But wait, there's more! Any critical reader worth his or her weight in chocolate will use a discerning eye inevaluating the sources provided. The creators of Zeitgeist cite twenty-eight primary and secondary sources on their website; in contrast, the people contesting points of Zeitgeist are solely relying on web-based research, which is considered the most unreliable source of published work (online magazines and university-published web-articles would be the exception).

The biggest problem I see with my argument is that no one in this thread probably cares a shread about academic integrity. The topic isn't cut-and-dry like everyone would like it to be. I would like to remind everyone posting here that we're discussing the relationship between two mythological figures that supposedly existed thousands of years ago.

I have to say that after all these 130 post not one of you has pointed us to any place in the ancient literature where these claims can be validated.
Does anyone else wonder why there is such a short list of people making these similarity claims with this "Acharya S" at the forefront who, according to Zeitgeist http://zeitgeistmovie.com/sources.htm* was the consultant for the movie : "Special thanks to Acharya S for her consultation for this section" and Wikipedia too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S

There is a reason that this argument isnt used in more sophisticated atheistic circles. That is because It is not able to be substantiated by a reading of ancient texts!

please anyone, pick one god and one set of claims that zeitgeist makes concerning that god and its similarity to Jesus, and point us all to the place's where such things are written..here is a good resource for ancient texts
<a href="http://sacred-texts.com" target="_blank">http://sacred-texts.com</a> enjoy!

While I do not claim to be a biblical scholar, I have read in their entirety,the Bible, Josephus, Eusebius, Jerome and the Sibylline Oracles and I would like to commenton some of the inaccuracies in the first part of this film. First, nowhere in the bible does it say Jesus was born on Dec 25th, while the exact date is not known, it does say that the shepards were tending their flocks when the angel came to speak with them, something they did NOT do in winter, most people think it was around easter that he was actually born. 2nd, Josephus was not a christian, he was a Jew, the fact that the part about Jesus that has been interpolated by christians if a widely known fact, but not in the way the movie implies. This is how most modern copies of Josephus read:



As Josephus was not a christian one only has to glance at the fact that the above has been interoplated. This translation has been found as early as 324AD, however the issue of there being a Jesus at all is NOT debated in Josephus. Professor Schlomo Pines of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem discovered an Arabic manuscript by tenth century Agapius in which Agapius directly quotes the Jesus passage from Josephus as thus:



The contested issue is whether ot not Josephus was a christian and wrote that Jesus WAS the messiah, not that Jesus existed at all, which the movie claims there is no historical evidence that Jesus existed. It should also be noted that Irenaeus who was a student of Polycarp (Polycarp was taugh by John the disciple) has extensive writings, and talks about his life, and of polycarp. Eusebius also goes on to tell the fate of the disciples, where they taught, what became of the church and etc. Eusebius even records a personal letter written BY Jesus of Nazareth to a man named "Abgar Uchama, the Toparch" in response to a letter he first sent asking Jesus to come heal his son, which is also recorded in Eusebius. If Jesus did not exist, then one MUST conclude that all of these recorded, historical and verifiable events are all lies. You must conclude that the 12 disciples did not exist despite having many records of thier lives and children.

While many other things in Zeitgeist are difficult to debate because they are also second or thirdhand sources and opinions, many of it such as the sources I have quoted above completely contradict the movie, mainly: 1) There ARE historical records of Jesus existing and 2) Jesus was NOT born on Dec 25th.

It should also be noted that the wisemen were Astronomers, and came to see Jesus BECAUSE of their knowledge of the stars. I personally have no problem with things being mirrored in the heavens, one in fufillment of another, but that is another issue.

In response to the guy who mentioned that the three wisemen are stars on orins belt, I must tell you that the Bible does NOT say that there were only three wise men, in fact it does NOT say how many, and they did not visit Jesus as a baby he was likely 1-2 years old at the time. The Idea that there were 3 comes from the fact that they gave 3 gifts. The text will be quoted below for accuracy:



I have great respect for all others who wish to find evidence and proof for things in the world. Despite what so-called christians would tell you, God never wanted us to have "blind faith" but faith in the evidence. There are just as many people who will argue against God without proof as there are christians who argue for it, equally with no proof. I ignore both such individuals and will not waste my time with a response to them. No matter how cleverly you may argue, we will both know the truth -or lie of what we say on the day that we die.

Refrences
Josephus, Flavius. Jewish Antiquities, A XVIII,63
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, I XIII. 6-10

I own The movie...It was Just OK...Ive seen better flix on youtube / google vid. ..The FED RES. Info. was tight...The Implant Chip and 9-11 stuff was average, nothing we havnt already read or seen. The New age stuff , well Im a Born Again Christian so i did not like the attempted debunking of Christ. I have also read the Picies and Aquarious theorys and kind of knew what they were gona say before they said it ( not what you want when watching a new video ) They took like hella footage from jordan maxwell flix and i also saw lots of loose change clips...they pretty much pasted togeather a movie from aleady exsisting movies Ive already seen...ZeitGeist Sux...

funny how you guys kinda revere that day as the date of his birth then huh?

if there were historical records of jesus existing then we would of learned about him in history class-- there is nothing conclusive if so then prove it right here and right now-- zeitgeist is pure unadulterated truth and jesus did NOT exist

Sunofone,
You (or rather, someone you quoted) made the following claim:



Can you give us a source that backs up your claim? I'm asking because "conspiracy clothes" quoted someone who doesn't seem to think so. It should be a fairly simple true/false question.

I directly quoted 2 extant manuscripts, even zeitgeist mentions Josephus...

I don’t think you truly watched the movie, nor read my post. Celebrating the birth of christ on Dec 25th is not a reason to say Jesus did not exist, and if you base your knowledge of what exists by what other people tell you in history class then proof will do you no good.

It is also ridiculous to write off the whole bible as if it were one book. The bible is 66 different books, letters, scrolls and manuscripts --written at different times, by different authors. To say that all of the new testament is one big lie is to completely discredit 27 separate pieces of literature. If you are allowed that freedom, why not me? I personally trust history over conspiracy theories.

However to humor you I will give you several NON-BIBLICAL sources in which people claim to have talked with Jesus or his apostles, or seen them firsthand:
Josephus
Epistle to the Philippians, POLYCARP, Bishop of Smyrna
The Gospel of Peter
The Diatessaron of Tatian
The Apocalypse of Peter
The Visio Pauli
The Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena
The Apology of Aristides
The Apocalypses of the Virgin
The letters of Ignatius
The Gospel of Thomas
The Epistle of Barnabas


You can say all of these are lies if you wish, maybe they are, I personally wasn’t there. You can also look at many geneological records in regard to Christs earthly descent...Zeitgeists point is to say there is no evidence that Jesus existed, whether or not you think they are lies is secondary to the fact that such evidence DOES exist.

I don't see how they would need a source considering if you know any thing about Horus you would know his story and its freakishly similar to Jesus and other ''saviors'' .

9/11 is some thing that we will all see as a mystery some of us believe one thing others believe another. (nothing in the movie was false about 9/11)

The federal bank part of the movie was dead on do a little bit of research and u end up with the same thing. Its some thing they don't need to give sources for because any one who wants to find out if its true can threw a little research.

I don't think the movie ever says its the government trying to take us over its states it believes a privet syndicate is trying.

Check out this new film:

Zeitgeist Refuted

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7572663630528394775

God bless

WHAATT ?? What part of the 911 False Flag Attack Segment was glaringly wrong? It's exactly right on. It's been painfully obvious for YEARS, "DEBUNKED THOROUGHLY" OR NOT! Debunkers = are often Paid Disinformants /Government Trolls

Just look at Mr. Smirklroy's Adventures with Mission Accomplished.

I'd agree that the 1st segment falls very short of any conclusivity although it is highly intriguing. I'm open minded that this segment is at the very least oversimplified and doesn't consider a variety of possible truths.

But It's unbelievable such a smart person would deny such a blatant demolision. Look at the FRIGGIN GIRDER CUT AT AN ANGLE! SMOKING GUN !!!! BINGO!!!! HOw much thermate does it take to screw in a lightbulb? HELLO!!

So, Mr. Truthseeker, Mr. Conspiracy Clothes? what's your premise of 911

"It seems the premise of your book is that 9/11 was masterminded by a man in a cave, who taught 19 ragtag troops how to:

A) Somehow get the USAF interceptor jets to not show up for an hour an a half, while the flew over the most protected airspace in the world,
These "terrible pilots" as their flight schools called them, even on the small Cessna's they trained on, somehow magically were able to achieve extraordinary feats of aeronautics making perfect bulls eyes on three of their targets, and
C) Getting the laws of physics to go away so they could get the first three steel reinforced skyscrapers in engineering history to go down because of fire (jet fuel fire isn't even close to hot enough to melt 100 floors of steel).

The FBI has admitted they don't have the evidence to charge Bin Laden with the crimes of 9/11. Bin Laden renounced the acts of 9/11 after it happened, it was only when what is now known as "the fat Bin Laden" tape, which experts now believe was a fake came out that this fake Bin Laden claimed credit for 9/11.

The most plausible explanation being that elements of the US govt. had a hand in the events of 9/11, and used these Moslem patsies, some who were trained on US military bases and/or by the Israeli Zionist Mossad before 9/11.

So, if as it appears this book tries to get readers to believe that 19 ragtags did 9/11 and doesn't look at the emerging evidence of "thermate" traces (patented controlled demolition explosives) found in WTC debris, and the now being exposed lying patterns of the Dept. of Defense, NORAD witness to the 9/11 Commission . . . well that would bode well for the truthfulness or motivations of this book to seek truth. "


"It goes without saying that to the Western peoples these warnings will go unheeded as they have so far separated themselves from true knowledge that their lives have become but simple shells of all they are capable of being. But, though we know our words will go unheeded they must still be spoken so that no man can ever make the accusation that they haven’t been warned." Sorcha Faal

"The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived, and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic." J.G. Kennedy.

Blessed is the state that hides its most egregious crimes behind the smokescreen of incompetence Jeff Wells

When is Dick Cheney going to take Bush hunting!

I've been seeing a lot of misinformation about Zeitgeist part 1 and Acharya's work. As one who has actually read all of her books I can say that yes, in fact she does back up what she says very well. I see folks who tend to have only read online excerpts which *DO NOT* contain all of the details - that is what the books are for. And "Suns of God" addresses the criticisms of "Christ Conspiracy".

She recently wrote "Who Was Jesus?" which specifically discusses Jesus and the Gospels leaving aside mythology and astrotheology to water things down so any average Joe could understand it. In WWJ she utilized top Christian authorities, evangelicals and New Testament experts all admitting when it comes to evidence for Jesus, they've got NOTHING. For example:


~ John P. Meier, a Catholic University New Testament professor, ex-Catholic priest and monsignor

"Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ"
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus.html

Amazon - http://tinyurl.com/2fa8aw

"The Companion Guide to ZEITGEIST Part 1" E-Book
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitgeist.html

The original post in this thread was taken from another forum. I'm not sure if it is the same person, but I've read his post already right here http://www.infowarsforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2952

If you aren't nowheretorunorhide then shame on you for stealing his post and using it as your own words. If you are, then nevermind

The post you link to is dated July 8, 2007. The first post in this thread is dated July 3, 2007. If they aren't the same person than it seems someone copied it from here and then posted it at infowars rather than vice versa.

ETA: Checking CC's profile, I'm pretty certain they are the same person anyway.

Ah, thank you. I thought about checking that after I posted this but I figured it would be much easier to just check this thread again after a few hours and see if someone replied. Thank you though and sorry for the misunderstanding.

edit: I figured it was the same person anyways, considering they have about the same post count. (hes probably going to each forum to post it, I wouldn't doubt it)

Questions for topic creator.. just things I've been wondering.
What about the part in the movie talking about the historians? Have you did any research on this? To me this seems to be one of the major flaws with Christianity, if true. You could say that the Romans punished any writings about Jesus so that is why they did not write about it out of fear. But what about historians outside of the Roman rule? Surely word would travel of the coming of the son of God, aman performing miracles as he went and rising from the dead. Gathering an increasingly large loyal following.

Also, I've always wondered about some major contradictions with the bible. Maybe you could clear it up for me.

If God is ominipotent, why would it take him 7 days to create the universe (and 1? planet)? His power has no limits, shouldn't creation of happened in an instant? Why would he need time to rest?

Probably the most major flaw that I see, is that God is omnivicent. He knows everything that has been, and will be. Infinitely wise. Nothing happens that he didn't already know would.

So why flood the earth and punish man for their wrong doings? Did he not already know what would happen? Same as with Adam and Eve eating the apple, did he not already know that would happen?
You could say man has free will, but that still doesn't change God from being omnivicient. If there is a God, he knows already everything that will happen until the end of time. Every little detail, every major war, every sin or wrong doing, every good action. Everything. So why would he punish man? You could say we can't possibly understand why he did things the way he did, and that it is all for a purpose. Then why would he send anyone to hell at all? Why should any man deserve to burn for all of eternity because of Gods plan? Is that not "evil"?

Oh and btw, if there is any omnivicient beings in the universe, then wouldn't the fact that we have free will be an illusion?

Just curious..

Good points

I agree with you, there are far to many questions that people ask that cannot be answered and the same response you will always get is "you just have to have faith". For me thats just not good enough.

When did religion start?


Similarities Between Jesus and Horus

1. Both were conceived of a virgin.

2. Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)

3. Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.

4. Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.

5. Both foster fathers were of royal descent.

6. Both were born in a cave (although sometimes Jesus is said to have been born in a stable).

7. Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.

8. Horus; birth was heralded by the star Sirius (the morning star). Jesus had his birth heralded by a star in the East (the sun rises in the East).

9. Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.

10. Both births were announced by angels (this si nto the same as number 7).

11. Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.

12. Horus was visited at birth by "three solar deities" and Jesus was visited by "three wise men".

13. After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.

14. To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hid