Understood. My point was to say that the Christians coming out of the auditorium were blaring horns to drown him out. It's a shame that the police couldn't have done something sooner, but this particular individual has given our town our share of heartache and embarrassment (I know, I work at City Hall). They were just waiting for the chance to shut him down. He is a very hateful individual.

I'm stunned.
WHO ARE YOU DEMON! FLEE THIS PLACE AND RETURN GW TO US! *sprinkles holy water and gold glitter*

Well said. I'm surprised someone didn't accidentally jump the curb and take him out.

I don't know if he's out of the closet . but friends of mine in New York and in London have worked for him. a few dancers and a couple of designers. He loves the boys. They have called him gay , he may be bi.

As for Sarah Brightman - I love her !!! what a voice ! Her and Lisa Gerrard. I love Lisa Gerrard.

Now I'm a bit sad. I haven't thought about him in a while , one of my friends who was working doing costume repair for Cats ( his first job out of FIT in NY) who passed away a few years ago.

He was a hoot. your almost sterotypical gay man fashion designer. He died a couple of years after that . very young. very talented.

it is embarrassing. and sad. because those that hate are soooooo obsessed by it. they have made themselves ill. really. They either go around all thier lives being that obessed and angry or they 'wake up' and realised what a waste it all was. all that energy wasted when they could have actually been doing some good in the world .

Like the former KKK members who realise how stupid bigotry and hate is. the end up ardent civil rights petitioners. lol . seriously I know a couple of people who were extreamly bigoted and somehow something in them changed. They also realised how much they hated themselves.

We could use your example to illustrate true repentance, the one that changes lives. In essence this is what divides the true christian from the rest of the "Christian" world...

I love Andrew Lloyd Weber--so talented!

Sarah does have a unique and lovely voice. She was his muse for Phantom of the Opera.

Sorry to hear about your friend. He's in a wonderful place, I'm sure! He's probably thinking about you, too.

yes unforturnatly it doesn't seem to happen often.


I love the song 'Imagine' by Lennon and have always wondered why people find it easier to hate one another than love.

I was talking to a bunch of the 'boys' last night about Webber. Many claim he's bi , yet I have to say for myself I don't know. Possible ? sure. Plenty of gay men and women marry. someone mentioned a blended marriage. Plenty of gay men and lesbians marry each other for 'cover' . who knows. I think it's all speculation.

he sure does make the gaydar spike. lol.

Sarah Brightman?

define natural.

Natural is how YOU see things.........everyones version of whats NATURAL is different

IE...Killing others IMO is not natural

but to many killers it is natural

How one expresses their love to another...either homosexual or straight...each will see their ways as natural

Only YOU can define what is natural to YOU

Unnatural is anything that goes against nature or the nature of a person.

Natural is anything that comes out of nature.


In all actuality...I don't think there is anything in this universe that can be considered unnatural.

I wonder what would have happened if one or more of the people coming out of the production would have said to the man with the bullhorn, "I don't agree with you but I still love you."?


I think that this is very true.

This is a strange world sometimes!

Mabon.

The more and more I read your posts...the more I like...keep it up

I think it is mainly a question of ego. Hate is really a natural defense of the phsyche when fear is prevalent. It really doesn't matter if the fear in question is justified or not.

I must question this particular idea that is assumed by your definition of natural...

Not because I have anything against it but rather because it is normally used to justify certain attitudes of people when the word unnatural comes along.

Let us take two examples out of nature and the natural world, people are so fond of using as an example when speaking about what is natural:

1. Cannibalism

Cannibalism is quite common among animals. Lions eat other lions, bears eat other bears, and chimpanzees eat other chimpanzees. This is not necessarily the result of a food shortage. Such incidents occur even when there is a plentiful supply of food from other sources. In the case of lions, for example, a male lion sometimes kills and eats the cubs of a female lion without a partner to protect her. The male lion does this because the female lion will not mate as long as she has cubs, but she will mate after the cubs are dead. For some species, cannibalism is extremely common. Approximately one fifth of the diet of a tiger salamander, for example, consists of other tiger salamanders.

The point to be learned from this is that we should not be basing our moral code on the behavior of other animals, but instead strive for something better. If we were to believe that eating meat is OK simply because other animals did it as well, then this would imply that there is also nothing wrong with cannibalism.

See: How common is cannibalism in the animal kingdom?

Unlike previously believed, cannibalism is not just a result of extreme food shortage or artificial conditions, but commonly occurs under natural conditions in a variety of species. In fact, scientists have acknowledged that it is ubiquitous in natural communities. Cannibalism seems to be especially prevalent in aquatic communities, in which up to ~90% of the organisms engage in cannibalism at some point of the life cycle. Cannibalism is also not restricted to carnivorous species, but is commonly found in herbivores and detritivores. Another common form of cannibalism is infanticide. Classical examples include the chimpanzees where groups of adult males have been observed to attack and consume their infants, and lions, where adult males commonly kill infants when they take over a new harem after replacing the previous dominant males. Also, gerbils, pigs raised for meat, hamsters and also some breeds of cats eat their young if they are stillborn, or if the mothers are especially stressed.

See: Non-human cannibalism

2. Rape

Controversial interpretations and implications aside (see Sociobiological theories of rape), sex in a forceful or apparently coercive context has also been documented in a variety of species. A notable example is bottlenose dolphins, where at times, gangs of bachelor males 'corner' females. The behavior is also common in some arachnids (spiders), notably those whose females eat the males during sex if not tricked with food and tied down with threads, and in some herbivorous herd species or species where males and females are very different in size, where the male dominates sexually by sheer force and size. Other animals which appear to combine sexual intercourse with apparent violent assault, also include some species of bird such as ducks and geese.

See: Non-human animal sexual behavior

As evidence of the "naturalness" of rape, Thornhill and Palmer point to the incidence of rape throughout the animal kingdom. As they put it, "the common thread that binds nearly all animal species seems to be that males are willing to abandon all sense and decorum, even to risk their lives, in the frantic quest for sex." (And you thought feminists were tough on men!) Some species, most notably the scorpion fly, have developed organs whose only purpose seems to be restraining the reluctant female. Moving beyond the world of bugs, the authors point to the fact that most human rape victims are of child-bearing age. They conclude that rape must be motivated, however unconsciously, by the desire to impregnate.

Evolution is no excuse for Rape

While as a human being and a moral person I can say that I cannot agree that just because something is natural, that it is acceptable, otherwise the articles above can also start being used as an excuse for the acts above.

We as people would immediately classify the above behaviour in humans as not only unnatural but reprehensible from a moral standpoint so why do we use "The Natural World" as an excuse to define what is natural only for what is convenient to us?



Finally, BM's post is the real definition of natural, and no ammount of dancing around the issue will change that. Thanks BM...

Rape and Cannibalism are natural. Anything that exists in nature is considered natural...and since everything is apart of nature then everything is natural.

We shouldn't be debating if a thing is natural or unnatural because it doesn't make any sense. We should be debating if something is moral or immoral.

Just because something is deemed natural doesn't mean its right and just because something is deemed unnatural doesn't mean its wrong.

Quite correct, we shouldn't be debating if something is natural or unnatural but whether something is moral or immoral. Yet there are many who have used the very excuse of something being natural to undermine the idea that something is immoral.

Also the consideration of morality is considered by many to be absolute as in what the Word of God transmits to us in its message yet we must also be able to admit that morality is actually fluid and changes over time and place. Whose morality is more correct, whose doesn't consider other cultural outlooks?

When we start debating what is moral or not we have to take into consideration that peoples moral concepts vary greatly from person to person and culture to culture.

Michael Jackson. Case closed. A perfect example of HUMANITY, not NATURE at work!

Absolutely. Right and wrong are matters of perspective and opinion. There is no such thing as an absolute/universal right or wrong.

Ah but HE thought it was natural to mess with lil boys...to him and other sicko's like him, its natural

unfortunately what you call 'true repentance' rarely happens.

I wouldn't say rape in humans is natural.

nor a 'urge' to procreate. especially since the natural urge to have an orgasm is a selfish one. about individual pleasure . we usually don't seek sex out if we aren't in the mood. we don't tend to have sex only during ovulation when hormones would warrent a time period for procreation ( a woman is only fertal a few days a month). procreation isn't on our minds when we become horney. humans and primates masturbate all the time .



rape among humans is a sign of dominance, and used to degrade which is why it is 99% of the time an act of violence , anger. and it doesn't happen with just women. Men rape men too as a way to degrade .

IMO its not natural............men just do it to hurt others including other men

Hmm, then dolphins who do so, also do it out of a desire for dominance?

They are also one of the few species who have sex for pleasure also, I wonder if that has got anything to do with it?

It funny how some things that are natural are suddenly unnatural when you don't agree with them...

We've seen time and again how some people on this board go out of their way to use nature to justify their positions on certain subjects but are reluctant to do so when an equal parallel is made using the same basis of comparison on such things as rape and cannibalism in the animal world.

Speaking of cannibalism, what is so wrong with it? In many cultures (which we sould respect) it is a sign of respect to eat a family member who died or the heart of an enemy warrior who fought well. Why should our morality be put in 1st place because it is different from theirs?

Why isn't it natural? It is quite common (rape and cannibalism) in the animal world. Why is this suddenly unnatural because it doesn't suite your culture or your moral tastes?

I didn't think our bodies were built to digest raw flesh of any kind

I agree we must respect a certain culture that eat their family members..............BUT have NO respect for those that eat other humans for the thrill of it...gross IMO

Don't worry BM, my purpose is only to be thought provoking, I'm not interested in eating human flesh at this time, hehehe...

Well Jor...if you agree with me on this...see below..




then you wouldnt ask me WHY I said --> IMO its not natural <--its my opinion, how I see it

Ok then, it is natural but isn't moral, that I think is more along the lines of what you are saying, taking your last post into consideration. At least it isn't moral to you and me, but to other cultures it might be moral as well.



And if you agree with the above then you'll also agree that the word "not natural" can't be used in the context you applied it.

I agree'd with his post because I think everyone see's things natural to themselves...each to their own...if you get my drift....you say you think rape is natural..<---I believe in your eyes and in your opinion...YEs..but in my eyes its GROSS and not natural to me <--see what im saying


as I try and eat my dinner while typing to you lol but we women are multi tasked

I can say it natural because it is part of the natural world but it is immoral.

I can't say I'm multi-tasked, I can only concentrate on one thing at a time... but I've had dinner so I'm ok as far as that goes...

I do not think that cultural preferences should be used as excuses to rule out logic and increased knowledge. Not all cultures are equally functional and logical, and those that are incapable of evolving should be allowed to become extinct or wiped out if they maintain a threat to those that do continue to evolve.

Its..............natural for us woman to be multi tasked LOL honest!!!!!

And its natural for men to leave the toilet seat UP lol

Men are known to have one track minds, don't blame them if they are too busy concentrating on pulling up the zip and forget that the seat is to go down...

I always leave the seat down, that way I never forget...

But who is to say that one culture is better or more advanced than another.

Let me put it this way, western culture is a cancer that is slowly destroying our ability as a species to survive on this planet. Each plastic bag you use, each wrapping for any product you buy that you then throw away is contributing to our eventual extinction. Would you say that is an advanced culture?

Pity my man wouldnt do that..he says the seat is meant to stay up!! yeaa and the sink is meant to have a shaving rim around it BAH!!!

I'd probably be hanged from my toe-nails if I did something like that. SHEEEEESH!!!!

Nah im done out yelling at him...I just stand over him and make him clean it...both sink and toilet lol...did so just last night and then went in to inspect it LOL

Yeling dont get me anywere so I use the force

OUCH!!!

funny I heard him say that same thing lol

For something to be considered 'unnatural' that something would have to be going against it's nature. Which doesn't really happen.

For example i have a choice between an apple and an orange. I like apples but pick the orange. This may be considered 'unnatural' for me but really isn't. If we look into the reasoning why I picked the orange you would see that there was a natural process to me going against my nature...and therefor the whole process was natural.

Take homosexuality for example...it can be considered 'unnatural' because the natural purpose of sex is to reproduce. Now if we look into the reasons why homosexuals become/choose to be homosexuals we see that there is a natural process. Therefore at no point was being homosexual 'unnatural'.

I can't find the original source for this rather outlandish story--save that it derives from a devout Christian author...

But you don't speak out about homosexuality, you say? Think you're safe? Think again. Here are just a few examples I've highlighted my book, "The Criminalization of Christianity," where you'll find a whole lot more.

His book goes on homosexual rants and alleged agendas etc. Typical persecution drivel.

The Criminalization of Christianity
http://www.amazon.com/Criminalization-Chri...TF8&s=books

Hardly trustworthy. Always amazed by the majority who feel they are being persecuted by a tiny minority.

Sean

I guess since my church are notorious demonstrators (or maybe "ralliers" for peace and anti-violence) I believe strongly that we have to preserve the concept of free speech, even hate speech. We allow the KKK to speak their peace, we allow WBC to speak thiers, we allow anti-abortionists to stand outside clinics with their horrible signs and literature, we allow everyone to say their peace.

HOWEVER (and this is a BIG ONE) when doing so, you must have the correct permits, the demonstration should done in peace and lawfulness. If the police come by and say that you are creating a safety problem, you must move away in an orderly fashion, you may not tresspass, you may not physically distrupt the lives of others, you may not break noise ordinances etc... Peaceful protest and free speech is NOT a free-for-all, it's an Art... If you make it a free-for-all and violate the law or incite violence, then you deserve to go to jail, in fact, you should expect to cool your heels in the clink. People who refuse to recognize Free Speech laws and the art of peaceful protest are only damaging their own credibility and causes in the eyes of the majority. They're just too stupid to see that.