When grandmas go to jail for witnessing

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Posted: February 7, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern


By Janet Folger


Arrested for sharing the Gospel? An expected outcome in North Korea, China or any Muslim country on the globe. But in Pennsylvania? Yep. Arlene Elshinnawy, a 75-year-old grandmother of three, and Lynda Beckman, a 70-year-old grandmother of 10 (along with nine others), were arrested for sharing their faith on the public sidewalk in Philadelphia, Pa., USA. They faced 47 years (the rest of their lives) in jail for spreading the Gospel because of a Pennsylvania "hate crimes" law that is nearly identical to H.R. 254 – the "hate crimes" bill reintroduced in Congress and said to be on the "fast track" in the House Judiciary Committee. This is the same bill that previously passed both the House and Senate and was killed only because of Republican leadership opposition in conference – something we no longer have.

Don't believe hate crimes will silence your freedom of speech and freedom of religion? Think again.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54125

I just thought this was a little absurd. While I think those religious tracts seen on another thread here are obscene in a near comic way, I can't imagine Grandma getting "cuffed-and-stuffed" for passing them out!

I won't be surprised if it gets worse.

I wonder what "Freedom of Speech" means nowadays, is it freedom to say only what is allowed by others?

WND has frequently promoted the story of the Philadelphia protesters -- which involved an anti-gay protest at a gay festival in Philadelphia in October 2004 -- but only a slanted, incomplete version of it. As ConWebWatch has detailed, WND never bothered to tell readers what police and prosecutors had to say about the case: Members of the anti-gay ministry Repent America, led by Michael Marcavage, were arrested after Marcavage -- with a bullhorn -- and his group tried to interrupt a stage performance at the festival with their preaching, and were arrested only after they refused to go to an area on the edge of the event.

Source


I don't care if anybody peacefully protests... I support the rights of the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Christians, Black Panters and other groups to protest all they want... Within the law.

Yes, controlled, peaceful protestes are fine IMO. When the law has to step in there's an obvious issue.

Well, lack of respect for others usually leads a person to even greater problems...

I don't know how they would have originally been arrested..

but so everyone's clear,

the charges were dismissed.

And wow, now we have WorldNetDaily talking about the importance of free speech? What's the world coming to!?

Good catch! I had to go looking for this bit of info!
Any idea what rally in particular they were at?
After digging (and it was a pain in the ass to find too) it seems these people are master deceptors at appearing to be mainstream, while they are actually more along the line of that Phelps weenie-tot.

Actually, this is a case over two years old. Link And they are anti-gay activists! They deserved the arrest. Inciting hate, is a sin.

like usual cons never have all the facts

Scaring Grandma
WorldNetDaily wants you to believe that a new hate-crime law will result in your grandmother getting thrown in the slammer for "sharing the Gospel of Jesus." Unless granny is a bullhorn-wielding anti-gay activist, don't worry about it.

By Terry Krepel
Posted 5/9/2007
Updated 5/14/2007

WorldNetDaily's new favorite meme -- that a proposed federal bill to add "sexual orientation" and "gender identity" to the classifications covered under hate-crime laws will result in the jailing of grandmothers -- is a result of piling dishonesty upon dishonesty.

An April 18 article by WorldNetDaily by Bob Unruh hyped the opposition to the bill by highlighting the idea that grandmothers will be jailed for, in Unruh's citing of one specific example, "sharing the Gospel of Jesus on a Philadelphia public sidewalk." (An April 18 CNSNews.com article by Fred Lucas led off with the same example, noting "grandmother of 10" Linda Beckman "went to jail overnight for publicly objecting to a homosexual rights rally in Philadelphia.")

But Unruh (and Lucas) didn't bother to tell the full story of these arrested grandmothers. And this is where the base dishonesty began (WND being much more guilty of it than CNS).

http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2007/grandma.html

Is there a law against being an anti-gay activist? I mean if they broke a law fine arrest them but if the only law broken was one that limited their ability to speak (hatefully or otherwise) then we have a problem. (funny you said sin hehehe)


In my opinion there should be no such thing as a hate crime classification...a crime is a crime and a person should be tried for committing a crime not for what they thought leading up to and during the commission of the crime. We should not police peoples thoughts it is a slippery slope.

I'm with Voltaire on this one, even if what people are saying is hateful...

Ripley, I'd say it's selective avoidance, actually. If one can make this story look like two poor old grandma's got busted for passing out tracts on the gospel, it looks really horrible. Which it would and I'd object vehemently. But when you have two religious bigots, that hate gays and have multiple arrests for being zealous in the communication of that hate and prejudice, it's an entirely different story. Literally! They deserved the arrest. Christianity isn't suppose to preach hate and unfortunately, that's how they believe. But that doesn't mean anyone has to tolerate it, that attempts to call itself free speech or freedom of religion.

It's not a matter of freedom to speak hate while corrupting a religion, when someone is asking a community to hate another community, in the name of god. It's sick! And I'm glad they were arrested. Perhaps they can minister in prison, and see what hate is like when it speaks back to prejudice that thinks it has a right to corrupt the philosophy of a loving jesus, into the despicable evil of bigotry and prejudice.

finally some action being taken.

I fervently believe in free speech , but free speech even has it's rules.

I can't go into a church and start preaching all the tidbits good christians miss . Like the fact the second coming is over 1900 years over due according to the bible where Jesus says he will come back during his disciples lifetime.

or that it's stance on homosexuality is faulty.

I'd get arrested.

the gay and lesbian event required permits. this event on this area was for rights not for bashing. and yet the bashers could have stayed outside the event and protested, but made the decision to overstep their bounds. By their own actions they allowed themselves to become arrested.

Indeed. It reminds me of the suicide bombers for islam. The koran forbids such evil, and yet it's permitted if it's a necessary sacrifice to preserve the faith. So the terrorists use that out, as a means to effect their evil against innocence that they do not see as innocent, of trying to destroy their faith and traditions. So they feel assured they're blowing themselves and others, to bits is approved in gods eyes.

Same with this lot. The boundaries are set, but they feel compelled by a "higher calling" to over step them so as to send gods message that he only loves certain people and in their belief, that does not include gays.
Free speech has it's limits, as does the freedom to exercise one's religion. Unfortunately these two zealots in the OP, don't believe that. No matter how often they're arrested to send the message home. So if they go to prison for this offense, it's because they have a record of multiple offenses, for the same criminal behavior. If you can't stop them with a slap on the wrist, cuff their wrists and put them behind bars. That stops them.

But like the suicide terrorists, they too will become martyrs for the cause if they're imprisoned for what would essentially be the rest of their life.
And as such, just like the suicide bombers, their "sacrifice" will be seen as inspiration for others to follow in their footsteps. Which means, grandma's will have friends to join them in prison soon. Justice willing!

yeah it's the liberal battle cry "I will fight for your right to totally agree with me"

Being anti-gay isn't against the law.

Actually it's a simple matter. Freedom of speech has never been absolute, in this country.

This is why one can not freely scream, "FIRE!" in a theater! This is why we have censors in our broadcast media, this is why we have the FCC! (Federal communications commission)

And this is why hate speech was defined, by law. To stop those that hate, from inciting to action their fellow deviants, so as to cause civil unrest and terrorism!

freedom of speech
Liberty to express opinions and ideas without hindrance, and especially without fear of punishment. Despite the constitutional guarantee of free speech in the United States, legal systems have not treated freedom of speech as absolute. Among the more obvious restrictions on the freedom to say just what one likes where one likes are laws regulating incitement, sedition, defamation, slander and libel, blasphemy, the expression of racial hatred, and conspiracy. The liberal tradition has generally defended freedom of the sort of speech which does not violate others' rights or lead to predictable and avoidable harm, but it has been fierce in that defence because a free interchange of ideas is seen as an essential ingredient of democracy and resistance to tyranny, and as an important agent of improvement. The distinction between an action falling under the description of speech and one which does not is not clear cut, because many non-verbal actions can be seen as making a statement—for example, burning a flag or destroying a symbol. Again, valued freedom of speech embraces publication—writing, broadcasting, distributing recordings—as well as oral delivery of ideas.


Hate Speech

No, it means you can say whatever you want without fear of prosecution. Obviously, this is harmful to America, because people tend to different beliefs. So to unify, we must restrict everyone to one particular belief and employ the use of prosecution. Please join us in destroying this dangerous freedom and helping to get rid of the civil rights of American citizens so, one day, we can live in a perfect society, where everyone can conform to one set personality. We are looking forward to acheiving this pretty soon (we hope by 2010).

Wow, the crap seems to have hit the fan. I'll have to start a few more threads with erroneous info by accident. They seem to be the most fun!

Bottom line is, these people are exactly the type I hate! Yeah, I said it. Make fun of me for "hating". I care not.

I don't hate them because they believe abortion is wrong, or they worship God, or that thing homosexuals are wrong, spank their kids, hate the pope, manipulate the media...none of that. I hate them because they justify harming others with the Bible! With their own supposed LOVE for Christ! With their desire to be CHRIS-LIKE. They are indeed walking, talking contradictions, and they draw the lonely and confused to their own illness like a moth to a flame.

So no, disagreeing with a gay rally or parade or whatever is not wrong, it's their right as Americans. Even protesting it is their right as Americans. Disrupting and law-breaking is NOT.

Tis a good point.



Walking contradictions to the name they proclaim. It saddens me.

You miss the point. Freedom of Speech in this country has never been freedom to speak without restrictions. Never!
If it was free unbridled right to say anything one wished, one could incite anarchy! One could step onto the public sidewalk and scream insults toward church congregations on a Sunday! One could stand outside an AIDS hospice and scream slurs and insults to the dying, because they hate AIDS patients for being a living plague in this country. One could assault people, verbally, without restraint by law, when they don't care to exercise the common courtesy of effecting restraint as moral and decent human beings.

Hate Crime is very serious and so is hate speech. That's why, since the human condition can not restrain itself from not exercising it's free right to hate and say so, the laws have to.

Ahh yes, but who is it that defines what hate is? You say that by my belief that homosexuality is a sin, I am inciting hate and intolerance, and yet I myself feel that your agenda against Christianity is quite hateful. So who is it that defines what hate is? Screaming at people on a sidewalk is disturbing the peace, and therefore it is a crime. However, we have the right to hate do we not? Hate is very relative, and those who see one thing as hate will be met by those who do not see that thing as hate. Who is it that defines what hate is when there are so many different individuals on the planet, so many people that are different and have their own opinions?

The real reason SOME people disagree with this stance, is they disagree with the people wailing for protection. That much is true.
However, quite often these laws are so difficult to enforce, so easy to abuse, and so readily twisted to support some ones or some groups agenda, that they are not worth the effort to enforce or create them. They are used as political tools to further agendas or get votes. To me that is pandering and insulting. As a matter of fact that is EXACTLY what the "grandmas" were doing, warping and twisting the law and the facts to further their own AGENDA.

I'm sorry, I disagree with the hate-speech laws, but I do believe their should be a way to regulate such negative behavior, in particular if it is DESIGNED to incite violence. Like the KKK holding a rally outside of the main office of the ACLU. Naughty!

Has no one seemed to notice that "hate" speech goes both ways, and that Christains, Muslims, Jews, and a many others spew it almost daily, what is the big deal, the vast maojrity that aren't weak-minded or weak-willed can see past it and make there own decisions. However, when you been fed that load for the vast majority of your life, then it is easy to see how and why they would spread the "good word" "God's word" " truth" anyway they can.

Hate is a two way street, and thought crimes are not crimes, you can think freely, and speak freely, so long as you don't intend to attack on it, I don't care threaten me, you will only get a "go for it" from me.

Whats really disturbing about this....

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54125


Mr Halfhand

Doesn't there have to be proof? And doesn't the claim have to be reasonable?

In the UK, if a claim is made that a person has committed a hate crime we have to provide proof. That's why, when my husband was the subject of an attack, the police could do nothing... no witnesses and no evidence aside from our word. So, even if the person claimed they'd been the victim of a hate crime there would be no action taken without evidence being provided.

As to whether or not the claim is reasonable... isn't there a standard in law in the US? There is here.

So for someone to be prosecuted there would have to be evidence to support the claim, and the claim would have to be considered reasonable.

Actually, the Justice system in the US is pretty jacked up. You can work it to do what you want it to if you know how.

Indeed there does have to be proof. As an example, being bisexual, I can not say someone called me a Dyke and claim that I take that as a personal affront and feel violated, and therefore prosecute it as a hate crime. If I could, the courts in California particularly, and all over this country , would come to a standstill. The following link helps to clarify the CA Hate Crime Statutes, as prosecutable offenses.



Important California Cases Interpreting California Hate Crime Statutes

WTF??? 47 years...thats bloody disgusting...down right absurd...I have heard of dirty rotten rapists and killers that do HALF that time and less even for a crime that 10000000 times worse

When I see people on the sidewalks preaching gospel ...i walk on by...I dont look, just keep walking. What bloody harm are they doing??? this angers me

My mom is like one of those people that preach...i dont let on myself LMAO..but if she got arrested for spreading the gospel.. as part of her belief...then i would help her fight her case

Shower of bstds the laws there





On a lighter note...when I read the title of this thread, and saw were it read - blue haired demons...i was thinking of Marge Simpson

hate is when you keep others from equal rights. exactly what 'christians ' have done. Hate is murdering gay people and calling one's self christian. hate is the religious right screaming how God hates fags. like what those were doing who were arrested.

your 'belief' isn't truth to all but an opinion.. yet homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. to believe otherwise is to be ignorant.

there is a big difference spouting off a 'belief' and wanting one's equal rights. get a clue.

one wants fairness the other just to express thier hate. that's the difference in thier free speech.

It's pretty hard for them not to hate, when their religion tells them they are right and its impossible for them to be wrong.

Not many I know of will tell you that they believe their faith promotes hate of any value....however i have seen enough new flashes and read many articals, where extremists christians, that do say their bible values hate

People have done such things, by their own will and power. Christianity had nothing to do with it.


Yes, I agree, all of what you said is hate. No one should be restricted of rights, no one should be killed because of sexual preference, no one should be told God hates them. Those things are all wrong. Please realize that those who commit such actions, are not Christians, for they act in a way not condoned by God. To allow them to trick you into believing that they are Christians is allowing them to give power over to you, allowing them to cause you to come to their level and to degenerate a group that does not hold the beliefs of these people, because of your personal experience with such people. Those people are wrong in their hatred and terribly misguided, but how much better off are you if you blame a religious group for the actions of such people? Teaching that homosexuality is sinful isn't hatred. Teaching that God hates homosexuals is. Christians do not teach the latter.

Sorry but that message of hate is in the bible.Read it front to back

I have, there's nothing hateful within it. Do well to listen to your own words, and read it front to back for thine own self.

Ahh yes, there-in lies the rub....who said that, I forget.
Any way Shadow, as COI was saying,the justice system here can be pretty wonky, and QUITE often, people use these laws to push agendas, plain and simple. Like these Grandmas appeared to do as a matter of fact!
Here people can sue "civilly", and no need for crime to take place, just a need for someone to feel "hurt". It's crazy sometimes, but people will use that to push agendas. Concentrated efforts to harm groups financially and also in the press.
The truth is, homosexuals in the states don't need a law to give them any special status. At least no more so than Christians or Muslims do! That's the point, if we start adding groups, where does it end? And, what's to stop someone from CLAIMING to be gay to use the law to further their cause? Nothing! Can't fake being handicapped, can't fake being black, can't fake being old. Those are the people that discrimination REALLY hurts. Not gay vegans, or red-neck flesh-eaters.

I commonly use this saying:

"Your freedom ends where mine begins"

I think that says it all...

Nothing? I think that telling others to kill others is a sign of hate where it does read to kill all of those people who you find are gay <---its understandable how people see that as hate


But preaching the gospel in the streets and getting jail time for it, is hate....its hate towards someones beliefs to hold a right to preach

That was then, this is now. In this day, and this age, everything after the death of Christ, there is NO Biblical justification for murder of any kind towards any person in any way.

Yet some christians (against Gods very word but incited by other in authority) believe that to hate sin is also equivalent to hating the sinner. That is their mistake, equating the sinner with the sin that is practiced.

We are taught as christians to hate sin but love the sinner. Unfortunately this is quite often forgotten by a few christians. Maybe their self righteous attitude (which is also a sin by the way) is what is causing them to act in this manner.

You hit the nail on the head. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Some would say that hating the sin would equate hating the sinner because the sin is part of the sinner. However, this is not so. Many do not see homosexuality as a sin because homosexuals have no choice. However, do any of us have a choice in sinning? Yes, but no. We have the choice, but are wired to choose sin. Love the sinners, hate the sins.

Remember though BM, these people were intentionally disrupting ANOTHER organized, licensed demonstration of some sort. They were TRYING to cause trouble, using free speech and religion as an EXCUSE to spew negativity. Illegal? I don't know? Not right? Definitely not right.

Good, gotta stop those Abrahamics from annoying the rest of us

They use the bible to sheild their own hate and prejudice....its so easy to do, and shameful to do it...speaking of those extremists that i dont class as real christians

I recently attended a production of Jesus Christ Superstar (with Ted Neeley--the old fart was still giving it a go--his farewell tour.)

When the crowd was pouring out of the auditorium, one of our locals stood outside with a blowhorn shouting absenities against "Fags." He shouted all shorts of pure hate that made me burn.

Now, the people coming out of the place were predominantly Christian. We were all feeling pretty good from just seeing a wonderful Christian production (and we were a bit confused with the guy's choice). What did we do? The people leaving the parking garage started blaring their horns to drown him out. Soon, no one could hear his hate speech. The police escorted him out, because he was so disruptive.

True Christians--those that follow Christ--do not condone hate speeches against anyone.

yuppers

I attended a production of JCS . Beautiful musical.

Glad to hear the police stopped his freedom to bullhorn slurs at patrons as they were leaving. Some think he should be condoned, because that's the true meaning of "free speech" . They would be wrong, but he is a living example, that never stopped hate from saying a word. Only the laws can do that, when the absence of morality, makes that necessary. And you're right. Those that embody the spirit of the christ, do not speak hate to anyone.

excellent point Howdydoo. I have the Soundtrack on vinal ( no turntable any longer however) I love the Overture. Not to mention it was made by Andrew Lloyd Webber - a gay man.

another point to remember is these protesters weren't arrested for spewing hate. they were arrested for not following directions given by the police.


the gay and lesbian event required permits. this event on this area was for rights not for bashing. and yet the bashers could have stayed outside the event and protested, but made the decision to overstep their bounds. By their own actions they allowed themselves to become arrested.

QUOTE
WND never bothered to tell readers what police and prosecutors had to say about the case: Members of the anti-gay ministry Repent America, led by Michael Marcavage, were arrested after Marcavage -- with a bullhorn -- and his group tried to interrupt a stage performance at the festival with their preaching, and were arrested only after they refused to go to an area on the edge of the event.

Off the point, and not that it matters much, but ALW was married to Sarah Brightmen for years and was pretty torn up when she divorced him. Is he out of the closet?