“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” Epicurus (Greek philosopher, BC 341-270)




The Problem of Evil
The problem of evil is the problem of reconciling the existence of the evil in the world with the existence of an omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) and perfectly good God. The argument from evil is the atheistic argument that the existence of such evil cannot be reconciled with, and so disproves, the existence of such a God.

Christianity claims both that God created the world and that he sustains it. Christianity claims that God knows all things and is capable of all feats. Christianity claims that God is perfectly good, and wants only the best for his Creation. If each of these claims is true, though, then it is difficult to see why God allows the evil in the world to persist. The evil in the world thus appears to be at least strong and perhaps even conclusive evidence that at least one of these central claims of Christianity is false.

This discussion will distinguish between four different forms of the argument from evil: the argument from imperfection, the argument from natural evil, the argument from moral evil, and the argument from unbelief. Though each of these arguments presents a different problem for the theist to explain, a different reason for believing that atheism is true, each shares a common form. The four arguments are, of course, mutually consistent, and so can be and often are proposed together.




Continued here: (Source "The Philosophy of Religion")

All of these arguments begin with an erroneous assumption: evil would not be part of God's plan. However, if we assume the same things the argument does: God is omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good, and yet evil exists, then there must be a reason, since an omnipotent being would have the power to eliminate anything He wanted to, and an omniscient being would know the impact of evil, so it could not be out of ignorance that He allowed it, and as a perfectly good being, He would only want what's best for man, but again an omniscient being would know what is ultimately best for us, even if it means that it is important for us to experience the effects of evil.

And here, I resort back to my old philosophy on the everlasting argument of why evil exists. It must. Were there no evil, there could be no good, for what is light if darkness doesn't exist? There ya go, they're my thoughts, take em or leave em. Hahaha.

It's duality. Everything in the universe that exists has two sides, a positive and a negative, a good and/or evil...
One side alone cannot exist because an object has to be complete to do so.
As the poster above implied, you have to know light to recognize the darkness, and you have to know hate to recognize love.
At least during our limited physical incarnation.

What is Evil When ""(Oh Lord)If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." Psalm 139:8"

I myself do have a logical workd view concept that there is a Divine Awareness that is a collective view and experience of All That Is. Every human has a divine self and is one with all that is in this fasion.

The problem of Evil is that we think, by design, as humans with limitation perceptions. So the short answer is that we are all things. When we learn to bless all that is there will be no evil.

Perception is key in my estimation. There is a distinct possibility that what I perceive as evil you do not. There are cultural perceptions of evil that are not accepted as evil in another. Societies designate what is evil and use a given belief system to “prove” that the behavior in question is evil in the eyes of what ever deity is currently the majority.
Hope that make sense.

Actually the Psalms quote is reminiscent of the affirmation by god in Isaiah.

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And I would agree it is a matter of perception. In the case of religions, from satanist to christian, evil is a concept. A necessary dual aspect of what is proclaimed to be the "good", in human nature, so as to define a strict sense of morality, from the platform of good and evil. And since morality is not universal, so to it can be said evil and good are not universal concepts either.

When we learn to bless all that is there will be no evil, is a mighty hope. However, it is unrealistic in the realm of human consciousness. How does one bless the rapist?! How does one bless the pedophile and their deviance?! How does one bless poverty?!

All these conditions of the human animal are deviations (deviant) , from what one would ascribe as being blessed. But that they exist is what is the focus of the Epicurus observation. If there is a god and all these malefactions plague the human condition, it is not solely us, that can choose to alleviate them. How does the sick mind that chooses to rape a child, realize it is sick and change it's pathology?! How does the deviant personality that uses it's male organ as a weapon and rape women, augment it's compulsion to abuse females? And what of the prayers that ring to heaven, begging something besides those possessed of these deviant predilections , stop them!? That they are not stopped, by a persons free will, that they are not stopped by an intermediary, like god/dess, means it is a human malefactor that is left unchecked, within the human community. As an anti-social dis-ease. So then, it would appear the problem of evil is us.

Yes the problem of Evil is Us.

The disfunction you speak of is us. It reflects the imbalalance we have created. I good start would be for all of us to take responsability for what we have created - that Evil person is us.

Not us, but choice. When given right the choose we get haughty and in haughtiness of thought we begin to think we know the right way. Tis why I submit to God, if I didn't my choices would be based of my own will, and my will is selfish. Through God I am made selfless, through him I am fulfilled and created anew. Evil has no place within me, for Christ dwells there. Evil and Good are relative. Therefore neither exist except within the confines of one's own mind. There is only choice, and with choice comes good and evil.

I am pleased you are free to choose what is best for the common good and yourself.

However I suspect there are many who our birthed into circumstances that distort them. They are products of a culture of right and wrong. They are angry and upset about their condition. So I continue to harp on my theme about compassion. When evil has no place within us, we will be able to see ourself in others.

What is that saying, "there but for the grace of God go I". When Jesus said "I am the least amoung you" who was he referring too and what was the lesson.

Agreed! Evil, like hate, is birthed from ignorance. When someone loses their sense of self, their love of who and what they are, as living potential, evil and it's step child, hate, chance to be born. If we would accept the responsibility that everything that plagues and blesses the human condition is us, we'd answer our own prayers, for salvation from that which is really a loss of our senses. And that which is a blessing in this life, is at least proof that evil can be overcome, if we realize we're worth more as living beings, than that disconnection that makes the only evil that exists, come to life. By choice. As us.

does choice exist?

Not only does the existence of God logically, philosophically and theologically deny the possibility of free will, but the Bible also says and teaches that there is no free will. Examining Exodus, Ecclesiastes 7, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, Acts 13, Romans 8, Romans 9, 2 Timothy, 2 Thessalonians and Revelations, we see that God's plan overrides our free will; those that do good do the specific good that God predestined them to do, and all others are ruled by Satan because God sends "powerful delusions" to them. The Christian Bible frequently states that God creates our future and decides our fates, no matter what our own will is. It constantly denies that we have free will. Some of the foremost Christians in history have taught that there is no free will, including St. Augustine (one of the four great founders of Western Christianity [Russell 1946, p335]), Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism) and John Calvin.


http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_freewill.html

It's not rampant, it's limited. I don't believe that God decides everything. I believe that the human-God interaction is mutual.

Actually it is US...MAN is the creator of all that is evil.....you are right when you say its a choice...but only a choice that man makes...nothing else can make man be evil only man can do this for his/herself...

mmm, yeah...i think this Gandhi quote sums up what many people have understood about the changing bounderies of evil...its a mad concept to deal with, especially when addressing all the horrible things that go on in the world.

Evil is, good or truth misplaced.
Mohandas Gandhi

So the two sets of questions you asked were of yourself, and the ones we quite justifiably percieve as evil.

How does one bless the rapist?! How does one bless the pedophile and their deviance?! How does one bless poverty?!

How does the sick mind that chooses to rape a child, realize it is sick and change it's pathology?! How does the deviant personality that uses it's male organ as a weapon and rape women, augment it's compulsion to abuse females? And what of the prayers that ring to heaven, begging something besides those possessed of these deviant predilections , stop them!?

This lovely quote provides a simplistic answer, that is by no means easily achieved.

It is a certainty, that he who can see himself in all animals, and all animals in himself, knows no sorrow

I have also been contemplating the state of desire considerably of late. I think that perhaps it is desire that leads to all evil. It is also desire that leads to our judgment of it. Without desire there would be no evil. There would be no frustrated response to the let downs in life, or the taking of something that belongs to another. Many speak of ignorance as the root of evil, this is true, but stating this is just the title on the front cover of a very fat book that holds the passages of the human mind.

"There can be only one" ~Highlander

What about infinity, though? There can be only one... right?

So if you wanted your children to learn the value of peace, would you send them to war? If you wanted your children to be considerate of others, would you expose them to bullying on purpose? Learning is possible without direct experience and, even if you disagree on this point, God could have made it possible. What would ultimately have been best is if nobody knew evil. As omnipotent and omniscient deity, God had a choice. He chose to let humanity suffer. The Epicurean question only assumes what Christianity itself does - that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and wholly good.

More about Epicurus here.

to learn the value of peace one would guide in peace , to learn to be considerate one would be considerate to them we teach our kids the behaviors they have by what we model if you deny your child attention and love as a way to make them independent you will create an adult with dependencys who will look for love and attention anywhere they can get it....our values are taught by those that guide us....

Like I said, given all those truths about God, the fact that evil is in the world, means there is a purpose for it.

What is peace when one does not know violence? How then, can one enjoy the full value of peace?

What is evil? For evil to exist, does there not need to be a universal moral standard? It wasn't so long ago that it was considered immoral, even evil, for a woman to wear a skirt that went above the ankles. In Muslim countries, many of them see the Western World as evil, with all its machinations into other countries existences. 2000 years ago, it was not uncommon for a 13-year old to marry. Today, we would consider the marriage of a 13-year old to be grossly evil.

So what is evil, unless there is a universal standard that does not change? If one believes in a creator/deity who governs us, then a universal moral can exist. Without it, what is right and wrong, evil and good, is decided by the people.

That said, I do believe in a universal moral standard, because of God. I don't see the evil in the world as proof of God's non-existence. Instead, I see a plan that God has to bring humanity to him. What good is it for a man to gain the world but forfeit his soul? It was through such an act of pain (I wouldn't say evil, because it was a natural phenomenon) that I first came to seek God. I realised that I wasn't invincible, that there are things in this world greater than I am. If I had not experienced this pain, I would in likelihood not have known God. Pain is not exactly pleasant, but it can help build our society like nothing else can. Through living through pain (sometimes natural, sometimes done by those who would be considered "evil") we grow - what does not kill us makes us stronger. And God has a larger plan than the one we can see. Most of us see as far ahead as the end of our human existence. These short years on earth are nothing, compared to eternity. I don't think humans can fully grasp the concept of "forever". I have tried and failed to think of such a length of time. God focuses on forever, and he has that in mind when we are beset by suffering and evil. God has his plan and has chosen to implement it through our time on earth.

I don't expect this to be accepted by everyone, but it is how I see it, and definitely not proof that God does not exist

Regards, PA

Enough of your common sense! How dare you!
But really, what you are doing is seeing God as a truly metaphysical being or entity or concept, whatever you want to call it. And that makes sense, because to try to understand God is folly as far as I am concerned, as well as understanding what "He" would call evil. It's pretentious and presumptuous to even imply you know Gods will/plan/mind.

To my way of thinking PA, you make sense.

What is evil? What is wholly good? It seems that there are many levels or interpretations of each, hence all the conflicts and disagreements around the world. If one does not know evil, does that mean it doesn't exist, or do they interpret events differently? What is, IMO, a universal understanding is 'cause and effect' or 'every action has a reaction'.. sort of thing. With that comes all kinds of occurrences, events, interactions, etc. We chose what events are desirable or undesirable, so does that mean our opinions or actions can change the course of events subsequent to our realizations? I believe it can, to a degree. But, what is omnipresent, omnipotent, etc. -- is infinite randomness. And in that, all things can happen, including what we define as good, bad, etc. For many, God symbolizes this omnipresent energy.

What if God is infact, not all powerful, all knowing and all good? If he exists, he cant be any of them. If the bible is any guide to God, he has made mistakes before, he has done things which were evil from a human perspective, and there have been some things he hasn't known about (or at least, pretended not to know about). It takes an incredible feat of Orwellian style subverting of logic to believe that God is completely good.

I don't believe in good and evil nor the universal right and wrong.

Good and evil, Right and wrong are matters of perspective and opinion. If there was such a thing as a universal right and wrong then they would be so different from each other that we wouldn't need to debate it, we wouldn't have to ask "was that the right thing to do?" and things like that.We have our own personal definitions of right and wrong and sometimes are definitions are the same but that doesn't mean that they are universal.

As for God...evil has to exist. Without evil there wouldn't be any good. You need evil to compare to good.

Sadness, Despair, Sorrow, Pain, etc. are all horrible things but they are necessarily. Without sadness happiness wouldn't be so good. When bad things happen it builds character...when you overcome hardships you become stronger.

In my opinion God isn't 'all-good' because I believe he has done bad things. My definitions of right and wrong differ from God's...so what does that mean? Who's wrong? I believe neither.

There's your answer. All we have is a perspective limited to what we can experience in an average lifespan of 80 years, with a somewhat sketchy historical perspective of about 10,000 years. Anyone will tell you that from the perspective of the age of the universe, 10,000 years isn't even a drop in the bucket. How can we, on our own, ever hope ti understand why God has done things the way he has.

Good answer

Letter to Menoeceus By Epicurus



Excerpt:
Who, then, is superior in your judgment to such a person? He holds a holy belief concerning the gods, and is altogether free from the fear of death. He has diligently considered the end fixed by nature, and understands how easily the limit of good things can be reached and attained, and how either the duration or the intensity of evils is but slight. Destiny which some introduce as sovereign over all things, he laughs to scorn, affirming rather that some things happen of necessity, others by chance, others through our own agency. For he sees that necessity destroys responsibility and that chance or fortune is inconstant; whereas our own actions are free, and it is to them that praise and blame naturally attach. It were better, indeed, to accept the legends of the gods than to bow beneath destiny which the natural philosophers have imposed. The one holds out some faint hope that we may escape if we honor the gods, while the necessity of the naturalists is deaf to all entreaties. Nor does he hold chance to be a god, as the world in general does, for in the acts of a god there is no disorder; nor to be a cause, though an uncertain one, for he believes that no good or evil is dispensed by chance to people so as to make life happy, though it supplies the starting-point of great good and great evil. He believes that the misfortune of the wise is better than the prosperity of the fool. It is better, in short, that what is well judged in action should not owe its successful issue to the aid of chance.

Exactly. As the saying goes, "Practice what you Preach".



Assumed (or personal, if you prefer) truths. As far as I'm concerned, any so-called "truth" about any deity is assumed with absolutely no basis in solid, self-evident fact. What facts people do use is vague, subjective and interpretational. Even putting that aside, if evil is a part of God's plan, what use is there in striving against it? If evil is directed with holy intent, then why not allow it to run rampant? After all, it's "God's Will". You don't need to slash your kid open to make them careful with blades, you don't need to experience absolute zero to appreciate warmth, that's overkill, and that's what's happening in the world with evil.



For there to be peace, there needs to be an absence of violence. One need not know the opposite to know something. For millenia, humans knew earth even when they knew no lack of it. It's only in recent times humans have experienced the void of outer space.



Agreed



As the discussion seems to revolve around the Christian God, for the purposes of replying in this thread I choose to speak in terms of evil as a Christian might.



But your perspective of God is filtered through the bible. If history is sketchy, the bible is even more so, judging from the numerous denominations that have sprung up since the days of Caesar. If there is no way of understanding God, how are you certain you believe in God, and not an aspect of the human ego?

The idea that there is a god who is all-powerful and good seems to arise from the hope that there is some being that can solve our problems, and the fact that he chooses not to, which would suggest that he is not good, is covered by a divine plan and the metering out of justice after death. He doesn't have to prove he is good now, because it will be demonstrated when we die. It's terribly convenient.