I brought this up in another topic, but it didn't recieve as much attention as I expected. Still, I think it's a legitimate theory.
First, a question: Why is it that there were so many reports of ginat squid in the earlier days of sea-faring, while these days we RARELY see a living specimen?
I STRONGLY believe that modern sonar technology is similar enough to the sonar used by the Giant Squid's only known predator, the Sperm Whale. I don't remeber anyone ever considering that the sonar signals sent out from modern ships are interpretted as being threatening to the squid and it therefore makes a hasty retreat. Cephalopods, afterall are known to be reasonably intelligent creatures, so it seems logical they would avoid a ship sending out sonar signals similar to that of it's predator. In the olden days, when ships navigated by compases and stars and guaged depth by weights attached to carefully measured lengths of rope, a travelling vessel would have appeared a remarkably less-threatening curiosity to a Giant Squid. But these days they simply avoid us at all costs.

What does everyone else think?

They live in the deep and they are quite hard to find and most of th catches are about 8 feet.
I reckon the Kraken is about 20 feet.

Um
Sounds reasonable? No objection here. It is thought that sonar affects Whale migration.
Why not. LOL, probably didn't get much response because it is a sensible theory?

Assuming boats were attacked frequently (have my reservations about tall stories from sailor's of the past. They are the ancient equivelent to car insurance claims IMO) I would suggest that the seas were more populated with marine life, and given ships were at sea much longer than today, and ships were weaker.... Then they would notice the sea life easier.

With whaling and fishing.... Many species are becoming to trust man less and less, and any movement in water is beginning to send life for cover.

The Kraken was some story invented by pirates. end.

I agree this is a reasonable theory, but to add to it, boat soanr is alot more powerful that a whales, on a higher frequency, much higher, in fact its even dangerous to whales. So there is no reason why the squid wouldn't want to be near it.

Holes in your theory as stated already the Giant and/or colossal squid live in deep waters, and there is no proof as of yet that giant squid or even squid (as far as i'm aware) are affected by sonar. If anybody can oppose this statement I ask them to do so.

Joel.

the whales eat them before the squid get to surface. that's good...! they dont look pretty

I remember the original thread, and as Psyche said, I diddn't find anything about the theory that I would disagree with on the surface, but with my limited knowledge of the type of fequency used, and migration patterns, it's only a theory that could be proven over time, and with alot of funding.

the story of kraken is told by pirates and belive me in the stories kraken is no way near 20 feet.

No, the Kraken is a legendary sea monster that was based in sightings of the giant squid.

Wait, wasn't Kraken supposed to be a giant Octopus?

I think partially why there are less reports today is people are less afraid of the sea and less believe in monsters. Back in the old days tons of people believed in monsters in the sea and so they told tales of giant squid wether fact or not because it was popular to do so. Now I think people are less interested in things in the sea and probably there are less squid because of polution and other things, perhaps like global warming.

I think the Kraken was generally supposed to be a giant cephalopod.

Joel.

LOL this isnt pirates of the carrabein here....

these go back to roman times pretty sure... giant squids or octopuss's..

squid, octopus, cephalapod....doesn't matter....it's just a giant version of something we can all see anytime we want. It doesn't hold the public appeal of something like a sea-faring dinosaur.

The plural for Octopus is Octopi.



Why would you say that giant squid hold no public appeal. How often do you see in the news "GIANT SEAFARING DINOSAUR SPOTTED! NEW SPECIES? More at 11."

Recently i've seen a huge explosion in the amount of videos and pictures of giant squid that have been captured on the news.

Joel.

Why would I say that? A giant squid gets one pic and is forgotten the next day. Nessie on the otherhand.....

you will only get a huge amout of media attention of gaint squit if one is found alive and they keep it alive

Okay, tell me when the last time you saw a picture of Nessie on the news? Versus the giant squid where I have seen 2 or 3 stories on the news about them in the last year or so.

Joel.

b'coz nessie is legendary tale and there's no prove, so the story continues

and.. we all like monster tales

I love this topic! I have a couple points to add, here goes:

1. The Phoenicians ran the majority of the trade routes, and were the most successful trading empire in their time...by far. They had trading routes that most other nations and empires didn't realize existed. Many of the routes that the Phoenicians had what was a monopoly of, they circulated stories of a variety of sea monsters to scare other traders away from using the routes that made them so successful as traders. Only makes sense. They claimed that no one used these waters, not even themselves, and that's what kept any competition away.

2. The Colossal Squid (Mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni), sometimes called the Antarctic or Giant Cranch Squid, is believed to be the largest squid species, and is most certainly what the "Kraken" would be. Our best scientific research on the creature estimate that a mature Colossal Squid would be between 39–46 feet long. Enormous. Certainly a 40+ foot long squid would be referred to as a sea monster and more specifically, a "Kraken". These things exist. We haven't identified half of the species our ocean carries, but we've actually managed to identify this one. A defining difference between this beast and it's closest known relative, the giant squid, is that while the Giant Squid and most other squid and octopus species have "suction cups" on its tentacles, the Colossal Squid instead has hooks. The damage caused by these hooks has been noticed on the backs of sperm whales. This beast is also believed to use bioluminescence as a form of attack on its prey. As with most anything, Wiki will give you some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_squid and it will tell you what discoveries lead to all the theories behind this creature.

3. To DarkSide, who believes himself to be oh-so-clever in correcting other peoples' grammar:

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source oc·to·pus (ŏk'tə-pəs) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. oc·to·pus·es or oc·to·pi (-pī')

Any of numerous carnivorous marine mollusks of the genus Octopus or related genera, found worldwide. The octopus has a rounded soft body, eight tentacles with each bearing two rows of suckers, a large distinct head, and a strong beaklike mouth. Also called devilfish.
Something, such as a multinational corporation, that has many powerful, centrally controlled branches.

4. While I presented to you a plausible reason why the legend and folklore of the Kraken and other sea monsters is so widespread (my first point) I very much like your theory and I think it too is plausible. Such a widespread legend is likely not explained by just a couple theories. Probably a mixture of yours and the Phoenician myth theory and maybe others. I'd like to add to your theory another couple reasons why the colossal squid would avoid any sighting by man. Hard-medal propeller blades would cut through the tentacles and mantles of this species like butter. Also, think of all the great sea-faring people throughout our history like the Vikings...think of all of those peoples who have no real written records of their travels and discoveries (also, the Vikings). Since man kills just about anything it can in the water, I'd say it is reasonable to believe that people like the Vikings would have killed giant and colossal squid and octopus so long as they were able to even see them. Did the "Kraken" really destroy ships and kill people? I dunno. Did people kill "krakens" I don't know about that either, but I'd say probably. Good enough reason for them to avoid us like the plague.

I think it exists, or existed at one point,
1If they do exist they can just live so far down in the sea that even submarines cant reach them.
2.Also it could have just been one giant or "over grown" squid that for some reason reached an abnormally large size so fishermen and sailors immediately thought that it was a new creacher.
3.Another explanation could be that while at sea the men got bored and started to make up a huge fishtail, that got around to towns and other ships and eventually became the legend/myth we know today as the Kraken

sorry i just have many oppnions ^__^

Lol, thanks for referring to me. Even if he was right in the end, so was I, but the main diffrence is that he still spelt it wrong But don't worry i'm not a grammar policeman, i'm prone to making typo's as well.

Other than that, you make a very good point, and I whole-heartedly agree with everything you've written there.

The Kraken is a giant octopus I think.

Having spent over a decade in the submarine service, I can assure you that ship and subs do not navigate with sonar. The "pinging" you hear in the movies is called active sonar. We generate a pulse that will reflect back to a transducer which we then aquire a target with. The other mode of sonar is simply listening without making noise. All naval vessels use GPS and inertial systems by which to navigate. Active sonar is almost never used except in war games or actual war.

It is believed that very large squid are in the deep. A few have been seen and even washed up on the beach dead. They come up shallow when they are dying and this is most likely when they are seen.

I'm in the Canadian Navy and we use active sonar all the time. We used it not so long ago while in the G.O.M. as a trial for minesweeping (that's right I sail on a minesweeper). Anyway, it's like any other system or equipment, if you don't use it, it'll go bad. So we trial ours all the time, although it's true that we don't use it for any more than 10% of the time we're steaming. Thank goodness, too, because that damn pinging sound (not too quiet in the machinery control room) would drive me away along with the Kraken.

DARKSIDE: yeah I guess you still got him on spelling lol.

BANANA MAN: c'mon didn't you read my post? The Kraken is a Colossal Squid, not a giant octopus (which isn't anywhere near big enough to garner any legend to speak of).

dont they live in the very very very deep (the deepest) parts of the ocean??

Many thanks to both Moondoggy and Test Subject for their experienced opinion. I know little about the actual methods of modern sea-faring. And while experimentation with a live Giant Squid (as difficult as they are to come by) would probably be impossible. I think it might be a legitimate topic of research to determine what sort of factors attract or repel other cephalopods.

Hope these will shed some light on the subject:
http://scuba.about.com/od/marinelife/p/colossalsquid.htm
http://www.marinebio.com/species.asp?id=247

Check the 'habitat' part.

thats a good theory but do you think that the giant squid can pick up those frequencies of sonar?
im not much of a sea going expert but it seems like a good theory

I suppose so! See it could be a number of things very much akin to what you're saying. The advent of steam-powered ships, generating an almighty racket, through to now, sonar as you say, dragging huge nets along the bottom of the sea, throwing power lines, gas lines, cables, you name it! It could also be that since its discovery, it's not so big a deal as it's not seen as a nasty monstrous beastie waiting to gobble you up. And so stories aren't as sensationalised and stylised as they are now. Instead of "I witnessed from the very depths of Hell the most evil abomination of the deep, the almighty and terrible Kraken!!!" it's "Hey you'll never guess what I saw! A real Giant Squid, cool huh?". Ignorance breeds imagination. Well I don't mean ignorance in a nasty way, like derogatory or anything, maybe naiivety's a better word?



The Norse, about ooooh, 6-700 years earlier? Say the "Golden Age" of pirates (as we know them, eg a la POTC movies) would be, what, 18th Century? It's a very ancient Viking myth, said to be up to a mile long.



It's not. The plural is actually Octopuses. Octopus is based on Ancient Greek as opposed to Latin and so the plural has the simple "es" suffix. If it was latin, however, it certainly would have the "i" suffix! This has been disputed a lot, but I think the final verdict was that it is indeed Greek, and so Octopus=Octopuses. Or at least according to the papers of the ceph experts.

Absolutely. I doubt much of a study was ever done on that subject, and it could certainly help us know if there is any chance that we just chased the kraken deeper. But like I said before, a three-pronged blade made of bronze spinning at hundreds of revolutions each minute is enough to chase most anything away.

Urisk: a little late on the plural of octopus. As I showed earlier, both suffixes are acceptable plural forms.

Indeed the is correct, by the way, nice Carcass signature.

It was not really seen as a giant octopus per se, more akin to a crab, and it's size was sometimes much more than a mere mile, up to 10 miles, usually just visible as a island not avalible on any maps. Linné classified it as a giant octopus in 1735, but later removed it. There was then Pontopiddan who had this little pesky fetish for it, and Montfort who tried to make a fortune out of writing about it as a giant octopus, but ended up in the gutter.

Also, while they are from ancient scandinavian lore, it's not really a viking myth, since it surfaced hundreds of years after the end of the viking era (1066 or so).

Maybe so, but after reading many papers by leaders in the field and only coming across the "es" suffix in all instances, I can only really presume that the "pi" suffix a misconception embedded in popular culture and won't go away. But then I am splitting hairs.



Fact of the matter is, I don't see why the kraken couldn't be based on the giant squid, or indeed the collossal squid. Or possibly even Humbolt, owing to their "agressive" (read highly inquisitive) approach to humans. Highly sensationalised accounts, naturally.

Giant squids. Why we don't see them often is because they supposedly live 600 feet down in the sea. But some rise to the surface and get caught in fishing trawler boat nets, which is kinda dissapointing, because nobody has ever seen a giant squid alive. Except for a video, I think it was taped in 2004. But furthermore, that is typically the info I have.
I apologize if this does not help anyone.

Yeah...the Kraken was an immense beast so huge that sailors would actually get out and walk on their backs, thinking they were small islands.

No wonder we haven't been able to find one today........ .......wait...

Yes, it was. Most likely there numbers are fewer because of the rapidly changing world.

the kraken nust be at least a mile in length and mile in curcumfirense srry bad spelling

From Wikipedia






Those sailors and their stories.........
Do you guys think the outlandish stories came from the solitude or the Rum ?

1. "So many sightings" is a relative thing. There are no such sightings among ancient Africans, South Americans or even Chinese and Japanese.

2. There were "so many" sightings for the same reason people paid attention to seaweed back then. It's much easier to see thngs in the water when you are on an ocean going ship that's say, 70 ft. long and the upper decks are no more than 15 ft. from the surface, and your ship can be sunk by hitting a whale. Have you seen an oil tanker? You're lucky if you can see the OCEAN from the decks much less something as tiny as a gian squid. Also, whereas a tanker the size of a skyscraper has 50 people working on it (and that would be a high number) a Spanish galleon had 200 on it...more eyes, that close to the water?

2. Scaring them off: good theory, and very likely. An old sailing ship made noise, but nothing like the noise made by a modern ship. So that may answer part of your first question, too. Whale/dolphin watching ships oftne have dampening technology so that their screws and engines don't scare the bejaysus out of the marine life. They don't bother much with that stuff on commercial craft. And you don't have to be too smart to run from an oil tanker or US Navy aircrft carrier. If I saw one of those coming, I wet my pants, too.

Tokie

LOL. Where on earth did you get that from?

When the Vikings wrote about these things they were only identified as "big." The Vikings didn't use "miles." They would compare them to the length of their longships, and these were not really that "long."

Keep in mind too, that when you are 2 feet from the water, and 3 days hard rowing from land in any direction, in say, 1040 AD, surrounded by the vast, vast emptiness of a sea you barely understand, you might tend to exagerate things a bit, expecially when you come across some "monster" that your grandmother used to scare you with to get you to be a good little Viking boy.

Giant squid exist. We know that today, without doubt. We've found their carcasses and for centuries have been finding their arms and beaks inside sperm whales. It's pretty clear that these are the Kraken of old. No doubt, these things would occasionally be sighted near the surface (they apparently sometimes surface when some sort of injury or illness causes a buildup of oxygen in their bodies) and washed ashore by, especially, the Vikings who were a seagoing society.

And none of those ever found washed ashore, sighted in the water (and filmed) nor the parts and pieces of them found in whales, suggest an animal of that size.

Tokie

The modern spin on it made it into the giant squid, probably because by the 19th century, we understood enough about the ocean (Atlantic) and that stretch of water was so well-traveled that we knew there was no such creature as the "floating island." Which, by the way, was likely born far back in Viking lore when they first took to the seas, by the larger Atlantic whales such as the sperm and wright that would have, to a tiny man floating days from land in a tiny boat have looked just like that, and would have (in calm seas) caused a "whirlpool" like reaction in the water when suddenly submerging. Would such a whirpool even be noticible to say, a factory fishing boat today? No. if you were on a 40-50 ft. Viking longboat, however, you'd notice it and it could conceivably spin such a boat around (and whales, by the way, have been known to attack boats of all sizes--a big bull sperm could easily destroy a typical Viking longboat) resulting in these tales, being told and retold until the Kraken is as big as Iceland and sucks ships by the dozens to the icy deep.

That's what legends and myths do.

Tokie

Welcome to UM Token. I can see by your posts here that you're going to be a valuable member. You'e absolutely right.