I tried a search and could find one related to Jim Alen. So, I am posting this.
Some days ago, discovery channel aired a documentary about this and I found it very interesting. Alem provided many theories about Atlantis and crossed references with Plato writings. Check his web site: http://www.geocities.com/webatlantis/ and see for yourself the texts and images he have to present. This theory, according discovery channel is dividing the “experts” about Atlantis. Some thinks that Alem is right and some thinks he is completely wrong. Whose side are you?

I found very very interesting the satellite images from salt plains. It shows very intriguing patterns below the surface.

Well, fairy tale or not, it’s a good reading and I recommend it.

Looking forward you guys opinions after you READ the whole site above mentioned.

Kind regards,

-Feanor

Hmm... possible but the description also applies to what they have drawn at Troy .... and Santorin and ....

I think that if there was an Atlantis it surely was not that advanced society that everybody expects to find.

There wasn't an Atlantis, and the more I read about it now the more convinced I am that looking for prospective sites is a waste of time. It was a story, an allegory, used by Plato to teach his students.

Nothing. More.

I think the supposed canals have since been shown to be natural geological formations. But in any case, why would a bronze age civilisation based on the altiplano in South America wage war against Egypt and Greece? Seems a long way to go just for a fight.....

I don't find the theory very convincing. Unless one discards most of what Plato says - in which case it's not Atlantis

Hum, what you trying to say? That we are all retrograde indians or that they were not so advanced at that time, in the case Alem being right...?

Emma, I also believe that the Atlantis is a tale invented by Plato than real stuff description. Well, sometimes, its hard to say with 100% sure that this could never happened but so far, there is no 100% evidence to the existence of Atlantis. So, for now, I stick with the “fiction” stuff.

Essan, can you help me with something?

I see that in the Plato's story, he mention the Orichalcum metal. In discovery channel documentary, they say this exists only in the altiplano region. Since you have great knowledge about geology, do you know if this is metal is known in other locations of the planet at the time Plato wrote his story about Atlantis.

stories,stories,stories
ancient people had so great imagination.suddenly after building megalithic astronomic monuments decided to write stories....
life had been so boring...what else could people do than to dream all the time and write stories
people all over the world suddenly were dreaming flying objects,and were curving all day fantastic stories about them on the walls.
you see it was so easy for to curve 500 sheets of odyssey or iliad on stones,without any reason.
Why dont i never see such kind of dreams with heroes and flying gods?

You!!! you don't turn this thread into a loony maniac mansion as your ancient astronaut thread please. We are discussing facts not your daily desire of what history could be. So, if you have nothing to say about the topic I posted, please say nothing!!!

Just wanted to be nice about it...

Just wanted to be nice about it...

Just because you believe in it. Doesn't make it true.

Cool link, Feanor. Thanks for it.

No-one actually knows exactly what Plato meant by Orichalcum - although a number of educated guesses have been made.

The name could translate as 'mountain copper' and it could refer to an alloy of copper and gold. But not necessarily so.

Allen refers to such an alloy called Tumbaga - which according to wikipedia seems to have been more common in Central America rather than the altiplano of South America (only other reference I can find to this alloy also reference Central America). So the assertion that the alloy is only found in the altiplano does not seem to be correct.

Thank you.

Even if Alem is completely wrong, there are many cool things in the Altiplano region.
Archaeologists found many artifacts in the region, even submerged into the great Lake Titicaca. Probably from Inca civilization.

http://www.crystalinks.com/laketiticaca.html

Essan, thank you.

Well, I am sure that in Discovery they say that only the Altiplano region has that alloy. I will do some research and if I get something, I post it here. Anyway, I thought that this Orichalcun was fiction. I used to play a Lucas Game adventure: Indiana Jones and the fate of Atlantis and Orichalcun was something important in the game history.

I am considering buying the Dialogues of Plato to read more about this without being lead by theories about Atlantis based on its writings...

regards,

-Andre

I think there's a chance that Plato could have been describing a place that's real and created a story from it, to teach a lesson. But, the actual place itself could have existed.

Just because you think it isn't true, doesn't mean I should believe you.

It doesn't matter who thinks its true and who doesn't. Were all entitled to our opinions.

BUT just because you don't think it's true doesn't mean we can't talk about it. That's the whole point of this board.

So those of you who are on here just to make people feel bad about themselves, please post in topics where you actually add to the conversation instead of always saying the same bull over and over:
"You know scientifically this is wrong, that is wrong, everything you are saying is totally untrue, and because I don't believe in any of it, you shouldn't be allowed to talk about it anymore."

How extremely selfish. Go start your own board.

Your welcome, Feanor. =3

Orichalcum was the word the the Romans used when referring to their particular alloy we today call brass. I'm inclined to think that if the ancient Greeks long before Plato knew of some alloy they called orichalcum, and Plato claims this alloy had been forgotten by his time, then it was probably brass.

More likely it never existed at all. We have recovered a ton of ancient Greek artifacts predating Plato by hundreds of years, but no odd alloys have ever been found.

Harte

I think Plato was just teaching his students, I kind of believe that Atlantis was just a moral story, but still in the back of my mind i always want to believe that it does exist.

I was thinking it was Minoan Crete ( i.e. the Phillistines) and the Egyptians or Plato were exaggerating........


Lapiche

I saw this program as well. Very interesting indeed!

In the program, another tihng I find curious is that Alem calculated the dimensions and coordinates that Plato gives in Critas and they were bull’s-eye!! A great coincidence or a piece of evidence that Plato was indeed telling the truth?

More likely a manipulation of the available data concerning the size of the altiplano area that Alem is supposedly calculating the dimensions of.

Harte

It is very possible, since he is a cartographer and knows a lot about maps etc. Could he be fooling us to make his name and money?

I just finished reading Timaeus and Critas and I have to agreed that basing on this writings, one could bet lead to think that there is a chance that Plato is telling us the truth cause there is so much freaking coincidences like the Red, white and black colored stones sculptures. This indeed exists in the Altiplano region. Some ruins found in the region, have depiction of Elephants and Plato says in Critas that the Island reigned by Atlas, had many elephants among other beasts.
He also says that is was a very fertile and productive region for culture of vegetables/fruits and all possible plantations. This can be verified. The South America has indeed a good soil and almost everything you plant here, grows without problem if in the right condition.

Could this much coincidence happens or was Plato dialogues telling us the truth? What bugs me more is that its impossible to affirm 100% that it’s a “fairy” tale or real stuff!!!

I do think that atlantis is true due to the many shows I have seen about it and the evidence. I believe what anyone tells me

Well I thought this was an excellent post. Why I say this is because coincidentally enough, while trying to find the legendary island of Thule of Nordic mythology, I came across something. I recall learning about how the original explorers of Canada were Vikings yet they had never actually colonized it. So, I took the only map created that depicts Thule, not as legend but as fact, the Carta Marina, and looked at something strange. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...rta_Marina.jpeg here is the map. If you notice, Thule is the particularly small island all the way on the left of the map. Below it is Scotland, marked as Scotie, and above it is what I presume is Iceland, on the map indicated Islandia. Also, what else is marked is what I assume is Greenland, in the upper left corner, marked Grvtladie Pars. As you can see, this map is very inproportional. And so, what's coincidence is if you take the isle of Thule and the province of Newfoundland and what do you get? A near match. Of course, the physical features are a bit alters but they still resemble almost exactly the same shape. Note, also, that the map records sea monsters to the left of the island as supposed uncharted territory, could this not be why, the rest of Canada was not claimed by the Vikings? Of course, it could all just be coincidence, plus the directions on how to get to Thule mention reaching the north of Scotland until one can see longer lasting days and so possibly, in Northern parts of Labrador, possibly but this does not account for the distance west of Scotland, not north.

It also exists in multiple places all around the Mediterreanean Sea. You know, the place where Plato lived.


There are no ancient depictions of elephants anywhere in the Americas. What you have heard about are deliberate misrepresentations made by people that want your money. Oh yeah, that reminds me. I almost forgot. I want your money too. Can I have some?


You can find this sort of thing in every area of every continent on Earth, as well as on the majority of islands. Why should South America be considered?

You do realize, don't you, that Atlanteans from Peru would have to either sail all the way around the world, or take the shorcut and merely sail all the way around South America, just to get to the Mediterreanean and conquer only the countries surrounding that Sea, then be defeated by Greeks that didn't even exist in that era?


I wouldn't even go as far as to call it a coincidence. I'm saying it's a deliberate distortion and misrepresentation of the data anyone can go and "collect" concerning the size and shape of the altiplano. How many semi-flat areas exist on Earth that back up to mountains and might be considered to be "coincidentally" similar to Atlantis? Both sides of the Rocky Mountain and the Appalachian Mountain ranges in North America alone are lined with areas that could also be made to seem "similar" to the Peruvian Atlantis.


It's also absolutely impossible for you to confirm 100% that I am real, yet this seems not to bug you at all.

Harte

Just to be cautious I would hardly take everything the Discovery Channel or History Channel says as gospel. Just recently on an episode of Digging for the Truth, the History Channel went "searching" for Atlantis. This is a genuinely interesting and worthwhile television show, but like many programs on the Discovery Channel and History Channel, it freely tends to mix history and hard science with fringe theory.

Till the end of time we will probably be arguing over exactly what Plato was up to when he wrote about Atlantis, and I see that many of the common arguments have been made here. I also see it as very possible that Plato was using an entirely mythical Atlantis as a moral story for the young minds he was molding, but we can indeed turn to known history to explain Atlantis. An earlier poster (and maybe more than one) mentioned the Minoans, and if any sort of Atlantis ever did exist, I also would argue for this as the explanation. Plato may have been drawing on a small kernel of truth when he wrote of Atlantis, and was using the distant memory of the Minoans as his motivation.

The Minoans were about the only foreign culture that the ancient Egyptians considered civilized. This says a lot coming from a rather xenophobic and nationalistic culture like the Egyptians. And indeed the Minoans were highly advanced and capable of great art and architecture. Through trade and commerce they controlled the whole of the northern Aegean, and purely Minoan motifs have been found on occasion in the ruins of ancient Egypt; the two were close trading partners.

The island of Thera is a particularly good location for an historical Atlantis. Before the Santorini eruption the geography and city-layout of this small island had a lot in common with Plato's Atlantis. Of course there were no laser beams or flying machines or other such things, but there is that kernel of truth. The experts argue over exactly when the Santorini eruption occurred, but by the time of the Egyptian New Kingdom the Minoans were a fading (if not faded) civilization. Such a mighty volcanic eruption would've had tremendous consquences all over the eastern half of the Mediterranean, so it's no wonder the event was remembered in myth and fable forever after.

Obviously I side with conventional history. To that end the best book I've read on the Minoan argument is Rodney Castleden's Atlantis Destroyed. I highly recommend it.

before the ice age and durring the ice age their was another subcontinent in the middle of the ocean some ware near Cuba.

the indians called it yu (sounds like you)
meditarians called it atlanties (at-lan_t-ee-ss)
the Eropeans called Atlantis the Egyptian the hoo-antis

lower the sea levels and a sub content appears that matches the Atlantis discriptions in the ancient world their were many gates of gerbralter

PLATOE DID NOT WRIGHT ATLANTIS THE EGYPTIANS DID!
they found the older hirogphs that has the same story and it was much older

There are many cities all throughout this world that are found under seas.

There is no underwater formation anywhere in the Atlantic Ocean that would constitute anything but a small island if the sea levels were lowered.

Plato's date for the destruction of Atlantis coincides with an era after the sea levels had risen from icemelt, not before, so no, sorry, but you're magnificently wrong here.


You mean Mu, don't you?

Mu was fabricated by a white man with an overactive imagination that wanted to prove that the Mayans predated, and eventually gave rise to, the Ancient Egyptian civilization. This was during a time when archaeologists had no way to tell the age of either the Mayans or the Egyptians. Subsequent methods proved absolutely and beyond any doubt at all that these two peoples were not only not related, but that the Egyptians had preceded the Mayans by thousands of years.

There never was any native legend concerning anyplace called Mu (or "yu," for that matter.)


What's a meditarian?
Mediterreaneans never, ever mentioned Atlantis at all, until Plato made up his tale. Never mentioned it again after that either, except when they were talking about what Plato said.


The Egyptians had no myth, legend or history of anything even remotely resembling Atlantis, unless you mean Keftiu, which was what they called Crete.
Regarding "Hoo-antis," well, you got the "hoo" right. It's actually spelled "Hooey."

The Europeans never knew anything about Atlantis beyond what a few of them were able to read in Plato's writings. Just like you and me.


The Egyptians used what are called hieroglyphs, to write with. They never used hirogphs.

More importantly, there has never been found any writing from any age in Egypt that relates anything at all even remotely like Plato's tale in Critias.

What sort of cactus you been chewing on?

Harte

Harte, no need for you, to pick on me like I was affirming something. I am just considering what Discovery, Alem's site put foward. Since I am no expert at all in this subject, I can't say yes, its true or its just a tale. All I can do is read about it in many ways and perspectives I can.

Regarding the elephant depiction, well, I didn't read. I saw on a ruin wall near lake titicaca in the show Discovery aired about Atlantis. It was at least, like an elephant. Very well delined and so on. But, well it could be anything else... Who knows. <-- I sure don't know, othewise, I would not be asking for opinions here.

The thing to remember is that there are many account of a land that held advanced culture (maybe not iphone advanced but had some technology, probably in crystals) from other country as well as greece so common sense has to play in that they are possibly talking bout the same thing. For christ sake Hitler believed it enough to start a campaign for evidence in world war 2 and this man controlled millions so he had to have some reason to believe it was true and not just reading a book. im talking bout top notch info that had to come across him to proceed.

So i do believe it was some type of Atlantis. I dont think the native came to Americe through the Berin Strait since there are no indian cultures left over to eastside of Asia. Nothing but white people and chinese occupy that from them times to now, so im guessin it had to be some land between the Americas and Europe or Africa.

You cant rely on that so much because there have been many war from then to now and everytime they burned book and took information, important documents so they could be lost to time like other important book that were burned. So we are at a stalemate bruh!

LOL I don't know that I'd use Hitler for proof of much of anything, except perhaps for brutal insanity. It's widely believed Hitler suffered from syphilis, which can have dire effects upon one's mental stability. It would explain his near lunacy through much of the latter half of the war. Hitler was a nut for the occult, and as effective and charismatic a leader as he could be, he wasn't the world's brightest bulb to begin with. All he truly managed to be was one of history's most horrific and pathetic monsters.



There never would've been "Indian" cultures on the west side of the Bering Strait. The native cultures that developed throughout the Americas came much later in history after numerous migrations, but there wouldn't have been many differences between the cultures of paleolithic peoples living on either side of the Strait 10,000-plus years ago. Native Americans as we know them, from Canada down to the bottom tip of South America, developed cultures that were and are completely different from the ancient cultures they left behind in Asia.

Examine the DNA maps of many native Americans living today. Aside from the mix of genetic material originating from intermarrying with Caucasians much later on, their DNA shows the routes their very ancient ancestors took through the whole of Asia, across through the northern reaches of North America, and all the way down through South America. There's really no reason whatsoever to doubt migrations through the Bering Strait, scientifically speaking. Is this the only route peoples took to arrive in the Americas long before Europeans did? Probably not, and many scholars are re-examining this, but many generations of passage through the Bering Strait is not disputed by any respected scientist.

DNA analysis further proves direct connections between modern peoples of eastern Siberia and Alaska and northern Canada.The Chukchi people of Siberia, for example, are directly and genetically related to the native cultures on the other side of the Strait.



It's true the native cultures of Alaska and northern Canada are much denuded compared to pre-European contact, but to this day there is a thriving native culture in this region, on both sides of the Strait. It's not as though native cultures wholly disappeared just because white people came along. In fact, were it not for the guidance of the native cultures, the first white people in the region probably would've frozen to death.



But there is no stalemate. It's correct to say that great amounts of ancient information has been lost to warfare and the purges of victorious conquerors, but it's quite another thing to say that all textual evidence of an ancient civilization has been lost. That's well neigh impossible to achieve, though many oppressive cultures have tried. Look at the ancient Egyptians, one of history's oldest civilizations (second by a slim margin only to the Sumerians of southern Iraq), and one of the first to develop a written language (second, again, only to the Sumerians). The ancient Egyptians managed to develop the longest-lasting civilization in all of human history, and a lot of their own history was blood-soaked by war and invasions. Their own culture fell into complete ruins and was lost for ages--but look how much of their ancient history has survived! Much the same can be said for most of the rest of the Near East, where civilization began.

The simple truth is, archaeologically, linguistically, epigraphically, and anthropologically, there is no accepted proof whatsoever for an advanced civilization predating the Sumerians and Egyptians.

I guess if you broke down like that bruh. Thanx for the input.

During WWII, he thought that The Germans where decents of the people of Atlantis!

I forgot what general area Hitler looked for the legendary place.

Please accept my apologies if I appeared to be picking on you in particular Feanor.

I meant to be picking on Alem.


I've seen the "elephant" representation as well. First, do you find it at all odd that only one such representation would exist? Secondly, have you checked into the age of the artifact which is claimed to show an elephant? Thirdly, I've seen better pics from other angles that show the "elephant" is actually a parrot, along with parts of other figures that are cut off in the "elephant" photo. I think I saw this online somewhere. If anyone turns it up, please post it here or PM me with a link, I'd like to have this link in my collection. If I ever have time again to look for it, I'll do the same.

Harte

isnt it said that atlantis was destroyed when man revolted and set out a full blown war and than was fully destroyed by earthquakes, cyclones and monsoons

Yet South America is still there, isn't it?

Harte

atlantis is real

It is? Based on what reliable and hard evidence? I've never seen any, except for perhaps the Hollywood version.

Do you have something that proves it?

>.>

yeah, I'd like to see some evidence as well...

EDIT: changed 'proof' to 'evidence'...

As for me I sit in the middle of everything and let time decide. The lost continent of Atlantis will remain lost until the day someone finds it. That is if it is real and not fiction. All we have is a mans story nothing more but he did not lay it down as fiction. Maybe he just made it all up who knows but leaning towards the superb details of his story it makes it worth sitting in the middle just to stay centered for any future notifications of other possibilities. No reason to debunk anything when not much is there anyway to lean on in any other direction. Who knows one day it could just rise up out of the sea and shock us all. We have a story nothing more.

I wish everyone would stop using the word "proof" as if it was interchangeable with the word "evidence."

There will never, ever be "proof" that Atlantis either existed or did not exist. There is no proof outside of mathematics. Nothing real can ever be conclusively proven.

Say "evidence" that Atlantis existed, not "proof" that Atlantis existed.

Also, there can never even be any evidence that Atlantis didn't exist other than the absence of evidence that it did. This is the same evidence we have that Santa Claus doesn't exist, by the way.

Harte

Having studied some of Plato's writings...I'm inclined to believe that Atlantis was another of his allegorical teachings. Plato was a very polarizing man. There were those who didn't like him...and there were those who loved him. In a time where all you had was the written and spoken word, one's ideas could be stolen by someone who could then claim them as their own. Plato used allegories to hide his teaching, and revealed their meanings to his students. Now, we are left to decipher it all for ourselves. Chances are, no one will ever get them exactly right.

Ask yourselves "What else could Atlantis symbolize?"