When candidate Mitt Romney declared himself a Mormon, it was quite the "It" factor among pundits. Now, it seems it's spread into the secular realm as a discussion of whether or not Mormons, are actually "christian".






Thursday June 28, 2007
Mormonism Is Not Christianity
By Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.
Are Mormons “Christians” as defined by traditional Christian orthodoxy? The answer to that question is easy and straightforward, and it is “no.” Nevertheless, even as the question is clear, the answer requires some explanation.

The issue is clearly framed in this case. Christianity is rightly defined in terms of “traditional Christian orthodoxy.” Thus, we have an objective standard by which to define what is and is not Christianity.

We are not talking here about the postmodern conception of Christianity that minimizes truth. We are not talking about Christianity as a mood or as a sociological movement. We are not talking about liberal Christianity that minimizes doctrine nor about sectarian Christianity which defines the faith in terms of eccentric doctrines. We are talking about historic, traditional, Christian orthodoxy.

Once that is made clear, the answer is inevitable. Furthermore, the answer is made easy, not only by the structure of Christian orthodoxy (a structure Mormonism denies) but by the central argument of Mormonism itself – that the true faith was restored through Joseph Smith in the nineteenth century in America and that the entire structure of Christian orthodoxy as affirmed by the post-apostolic church is corrupt and false.

In other words, Mormonism rejects traditional Christian orthodoxy at the onset – this rejection is the very logic of Mormonism’s existence. A contemporary observer of Mormon public relations is not going to hear this logic presented directly, but it is the very logic and message of the Book of Mormon and the structure of Mormon thought. Mormonism rejects Christian orthodoxy as the very argument for its own existence, and it clearly identifies historic Christianity as a false faith. (Continues @ Belief Net)

I always understood that Smith was considered a prophet, and that he was divinely inspired, etc etc.
Don't his writings modify the New Testament, and even contradict it? I mean, followers of the Mormon Church are essentially following the teachings of Smith, not Jesus, right? Or at least the teachings of Jesus as interpreted by Smith, right?

Yes gumby, they do not follow Christ, but they follow Smith. I think there are very few Christians that will say Mormons are Christians. Mormons and Christians agree that Mormons are not Christians. As far as Romney, I honestly would prefer a Muslim or Pagan than a Mormon. But that's just me.

(Most everything I say would get me banned)

I agree....Mormonism is not Christianity. But Romney's Republicanism (and his hairdo) scare me more than his religion.

Traditionally speaking....

Mormons, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witness and Unificationists, are all considered "cults" by the correct usage of the word.

Basically all cult means is that they aren't Trinitarians. This is the classic usage of the word, not the way we know it today.

I don't think that makes them "non-christians" ... they certainly call themselves Christian for the most part. The majority of them still believe in Christ the Savior, just not that Jesus was God incarnated.

I guess saying that Mormon's aren't Christians would be a little like saying Messianic jews aren't Jewish.

His smile scares me just like Pope Bendict's smile scares me.

Yes, Smith said he was aprophet. Even today, the leaders of the church are "prophets" they and they alone are told by God what his will is on Earth. If anyone else tried this, they would be thrown in the loony bin. The people (in the communes like Bountiful) are SSOOOOO brainwashed, they are terrified of angering the prophet.

It's interesting that they are not considered, by many, to be christian.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints So to read their website, if they are not christian, it's truly news to them, I think.

And as said so many times before. Who has a right to tell anyone, they are not christian!?

[quote name='GoddessWhispers' date='Jul 5 2007, 04:16 PM' post='1760051']
It's interesting that they are not considered, by many, to be christian.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints So to read their website, if they are not christian, it's truly news to them, I think.

And as said so many times before. Who has a right to tell anyone, they are not christian!?

many of my freinds are mormons this would be a shock to them as it is i jsut called one of them to let him know the scuttlebutt .. these folks very much follow the mesage of jesus IMo they are very kind and good people, cult well most relgions are cults...lol


Adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices is defined as a cult in word web and any one i have ever known ahs defined religion in general as a cult .... ..

i didn't think he would have a chance as its fairly on lock Mrs. clinton is the next president....not a voter myslef but everyone is saying they want her...*smiles* i think its time to have a woman...

Well, first off being an ex-mormon I can tell you many things that would blow your mind about the mormon church. I have done and have seen some crazy things while being mormon. I can tell you that the church is ran by a demon named moroni, and a pretty powerful one at that. He is also a character in the book of mormon. Underground under the salt lake temple they do have a shrine of moroni as well as pentagrams in their temples. I am glad God helped me get out of the church before it was too late for me. They are also into new age and support new age groups behind the scenes.

According to the Bible, Christians do. It's why we have so many denominations. When in a group of Christian, one half feels the other half isn't because of belief, they will tell them so. It is out duty as Christians to make sure our Christian Bretheren do not stray for the path and values that the Body holds. When one group of Christians feels another group of Christians is in the wrong, it is their duty to tell them so. As a result we get groups that break up. A recent example would be the CRC, RCA, and URC. They were all CRC, however the main CRC members did not believe that women should be allowed to teach, and so they broke into the CRC and the RCA. Then the RCA split when there was a disagreement over infant baptism (btw, I'm not sure if I have this exact, but I know that it was these three groups and the two issues were women and infant baptism). The church is obligated to keep the church christlike, and we split when (because of differing views) the church decides to keep another part of the church Christlike. I personally think that if people didn't buy into the lie that the Bible is the Word of God then we could have some unity in the Church. But because they do feel that it is, doctrine is open to interpretation, and thus, the many denominations of Christendom.

Seriously? So THAT's why outsiders can't enter the temples.

Interesting NS! ...


and that picture of the Pope.... it is rather scary.

The Devil perhaps!

In the broadest sense of the term, a Mormon is a Christian. But then again, so is a Jehovah's Witness, Catholic, Presbyterian, Seventh Day Adventist, Worldwide Church of God, Assemblies of God, Salvation Army, KKK initiate and Westboro Baptist member. In the broadest sense of the term, all these different denominations are "Christian". But it is also true that some of these denominations have more in common than others. Mormons on the other hand do not hold much in common with the other denominations. The addition of the book of Mormon to their Faith gives them an entirely new focus that the other denominations lack. JW's have the Watchtower, which sets them apart also. And it can also be argued that the ritualistic nature of Catholicism also sets it apart from other brands of Christianity, though things get a little blurred when you see how similar High Anglican churches are in liturgical matters, considering that Anglicanism is supposed to be a "protestant" denomination.

Mormons do (in theory) hold the Bible as the text of their Faith, they also hold the book of Mormon, and if there is a discrepancy, the book of Mormon holds precedence, as I see it - that is to say, when last I argued discussed religion with a Mormon missionary, when they found out I was a Christian they tried appealing to the Bible to show why Mormonism was correct. When it became obvious that I had counters to the passages they were quoting me, I was told that the New Testament has been rewritten so many times that there's no way to know what it originally meant (in other words, the book of Mormon is more reliable than the rest of the Bible, according to Mormons).

That's not an indictment against them - if they wish to hold the book of Mormon as their book of Faith, then that is their choice. However, considering that what we know of Jesus is found primarily within the Bible, i think it would be amiss to suggest that Mormonism is simply another branch of Christianity.

*I'm sure I could have said this same thing in half the length of time that I actually took, but when it's after 2am and the brain's shut down, it usually takes a little longer *

~ PA

LOL...Never heard it put that way before...although I agree with you, they do have a good point about not knowing what was originally said in the NT. There is so much evidence of editting and changing prior to the 4th century! But then, we all know how wrong the Mormons are to accept a book, with no evidence to support it, just because they are told that it is the "Word of God", don't we?

my only question would be: "when does it stop? according to the christians, the world is supposed to swallow their "n.t.", disregarding the teachings of Judiasm. Muslims do the same using the koran, then the mormons. let's not forget the baha'is.

Wow!!!

Once again I’m truly astounded by the display of ignorance, bigotry, and general lack of christ like behavior of some of you so called christians. You people are exactly why I quit going to church and calling my self a christian. I live among the mormons and yes they worship differently than you. So what! Who are any of you to say what they are or are not. In all honesty they are normal people who try to teach their children about Jesus, the Ten Commandments and to live good decent lives. Why any of you would care if they added some extra book in their religion is beyond me. It’s not like they are cranking out terrorists, or evil serial killers. Besides you don’t have to be one so why does it bother you what they believe in or if they call themselves Christians?

I suppose if it were up to some of you it would be OK to kill them and run them out of the country just like the good old days.

They will probably edit my comments but I get sick of the hatred and lack of tolerance most so called christian are so fond of spewing in the name of christ.

I have no trouble with Mormons and actually do see them as Christian. But then again, holy books don't hold a tremendous amount of water with me, they're valuble yes, but the end all be all? No. Not in my opinion.

I live very near a mormon temple, and I have to say, while I don't necessarily agree with their theology, I don't think it's entirely wrong either. What I will say is that I GREATLY admire the Mormon's sense of taking care of their own and their general sense of community. They actually live their faith, and to me, that's very important and very real. Frankly, I think they make terrific neighbors. That's all that really matters to me.

Mormons believe in Jesus Christ as their saviour don't they, and they try to live by his teachings? Well doesn't that make them Christian. I was under the impression that those were the only requirements.

Yes, however they don't believe that Jesus was the earthly incarnation of God. They are NOT Trinitarians like the vast majority of Christians.

The problem most people have with Mormon's is the actual Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. There are some fairly strange beliefs the Mormon's have regarding Joseph Smith's prophecy. And yes, some of it is out there from my point of view, but I still don't really care. By-in-large, the Mormon community is respectful, good neighbors, community oriented, family oriented ... their lifestyle is admirable--I have a tendency to look at lifestyle before I look at religion.

Not to mention they believe you can become a God.

I don't really care what they believe. All I care about is that they're great neighbors and I know that they're an active part of the community in a GOOD way. Sure, they knock on my door, sure they try to get me to take their reading material and have given me a copy of the Book of Mormon (which I accepted graciously and it was interesting reading) but the reality is that I could have a LOT worse neighbors, what my LDS neighbors believe theologically is really none of my concern.

Only thing I wish they'd do is turn down the wattage on their radio station because it has a tendency to occasionally leak over on my stereo and tv speakers. haha

Mormons and Muslims so much in common..

You and I see eye to eye!

My best friend in grade school was Mormon. She was one of the sweetest humans I have ever met. She never said or did anything to harm anyone. Her family was the same. They must have been doing something right!

However, my sister lived in Utah (near Salt Lake City) for almost 20 years. She tells stories of prejudice of Mormons against non-Mormons. One example she gives is that she was overlooked for a much-deserved promotion because she wasn't Mormon.

I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.

I have a Mormon friend and he says Mormons are Christian.
He has corrected me numerous times, telling me that Mormons are just a different type of Christian.

And he's a hardcore Mormon too! He doesn't drink caffeine!(I'm gonna spike his drink)

This is true; I have experienced this myself, when I first moved here. But as with any group of people there are some good and some bad, and like I said earlier mormons are normal people just like you and me and none of us are perfect.

I agree 100 percent.

I know what you mean HowdyDoo.

I have a very good friend that was born and raised in Salt Lake and in fact, still lives there. She is not mormon, and in fact, I don't think she's at all religious.

The reality is that most all of her friends are Mormon, she loves Salt Lake, she adores Utah, BUT she also realistically knew that because of their tight community, work would be hard to come by. So, she lives in Salt Lake, but chose to go into software training and her parent company is in Seattle. That way she can live in the place she loves, without having to deal with the inconvenience of being outside of the Mormon community.

Let's face it, the Mormon's have a lock on Salt Lake, that's just the way it is. If you don't like it, don't live there. Most of the non-mormon's I know who live there, do so with the complete understanding that they ain't in Kansas anymore.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

My sister loved Utah. (They actually lived in Ogden but worked in Salt Lake.) Her daughter still lives there with her husband. They don't have any religious affiliation at all at this point. They had to move to Chicago for her husband's work--but then moved back west, because they missed it so much. They picked Idaho, this time.

They do like visiting back in Utah--but they've come to understand that this is a tight community, and there is some discrimination--and you're right, they've learned to accept it.

That's actually kind of funny in a way HowdyDoo... I think technically, Idaho and Missouri actually have more Mormons per capita than Utah does!

I dunno, I still say they make good neighbors and if they want to call themselves Christians then they are welcome to it.

I don't think they picked Idaho because they wanted to escape the Mormons--he wanted a job at the university in Idaho.

She did admit that they are good neighbors--there were no problems there. She had quite a few Mormon friends.

I may not embrace their belief in the book of Mormon, but I support their right to their own beliefs. I don't care if they want to call themselves Christian, either. I know a lot of traditional Christians who aren't really Christian, for that matter--so who are we to judge?

Last I heard there were more non-mormon in salt lake than mormons.

I have alot of mormon friends and IMO they follow the jesus teachings very well, often more so than most.. I also donot know of a mormon that shuns gays either....they also take care of each other no other sect that I know of does this, i am not exaggerating either what ever you need they tell you to ask...I ahve seen this in action alot..... they also help anyone else too.... I have to say its called perfecting the saints and they beleive all are divine . they have amazing attitudes very positive and i can be who i am and discuss my journey openly and I have not ever had a mormon get offended actually many are happy for me that i have found a path that works for me... ..yes they have some kooky aspects but they laugh about it too and what relgion doesnt' IMO....now the book of mormon is what makes them alittle closer to heaven just like the catholic has its extra 5 books and all religons have there bit that makes them the one "true path" ..

Actually, Mormon's feel the same way about homosexuality as most other christian denominations. It's a sin, and it shouldn't be acted on.

Also, my experience says that they will tell you they are happy for you, but this will not stop them from trying to save you because they think you're wrong. Personally, I don't mind that my mormon neighbors keep trying to save me, it's peachy, they're nice about it.

Actually making a blanket statement about all mormons, with regard to opinions about homosexuality, would be wrong. And has been wrong to do so, since the 1960's.

THE LDS CHURCH & HOMOSEXUALITY:
"Affirmation" support group; more information; books

Excerpt: "Affirmation - Gay Mormons United" is a support group for gay and lesbian Mormons. Its roots go back to the 1960s when small groups of homosexual Mormons met in Salt Lake City, UT, Los Angeles CA, and Brigham Young University. Meetings were held in secret in order to avoid retaliation by the Church. Their newsletter was founded in 1979. It has been called "Affinity" since 1980. They have held national conferences each year since 1979.

Affirmation is "a fellowship of gays, lesbians, bisexuals," and their families and friends. It "serves the needs of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender LDS and their supportive family and friends through social and educational activities." 1 Their web site states that"

"Its purpose is to provide a supportive environment for relieving the needless fear, guilt, self-oppression and isolation that LDS gays and lesbians can experience in an era where willful ignorance about human sexuality is too often a reality. We believe that a same-gender orientation and same-gender relationships can be consistent with and supported by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We affirm that we are children of Heavenly Parents who love us the way they created us and will judge us, as they do all, based on what we make of our lives here and how we have treated our sisters and brothers."



Even BYU has found tolerance. BYU eases its anti-gay policy (April 17, 2007 Article) *Chastity is a part of the "honor" code for all BYU students

There are also different types of Mormons. The followers of Jeffs and Blackmore are the bigamists, and have been excommunicated from the Church of Mormon for practicing bigamy. SO, you have to be careful ( around here anyway) about classifying Mormons.

Indeed. Which is why I pointed out that not all mormons are bias toward homosexuals.

I know. There are so many people don't know, I grew up around a commune of "Mormons", so I know the difference from personal experience. Pretty bizarre.

I think the LDS get a great deal of attention because , at one time, they use to advertise regularly on television here. And people are very familiar with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and of course the temple. This might assist to begin to learn about the different sects amid Mormonism. I think it's fair to state also that Mormonism is in no way associated with the Quakers. Another misconception I've actually heard people speak of, over the years. Odd, because I could never understand how that one quite came about.

to clarify my earlier statement....I wouldn't tell an INDIVIDUAL Morman that they are not Christians, it's the CHURCH and it's origins that I have issue with, moreso than most religions. To me it's shocking the the US Government ever recognized it as such and granted it tax-imunity (the IRS being THE ultimate judge of things....)

John Smith was a looney..IMO...he couldnt translate certain documents that he claimed was Gods word...when asked to repeat it..he made up all sorts of looney excuses


the man needed help

I think almost every religion thinks they are the one true path. But you are correct, it seems that the media will dog some of the Mormon sects, but I too know some of them and they have been some of the most genuinely nice people I have known. Even after they knew I did not want to convert, they still wanted to help me re-build a barn that burned down on my property many years ago. Heck when the baptist come around they think I am the devil because I do not want to hear what they have to say. Go figure!

The Mormons agree that the Bible is correct. In doing this, the Bible indicates that each doctrine should be tested by Scripture to determine whether or not it is true. The Christians tested the gnostics with the Torah and with the teachings of the Apostles. The Jews tested the Greeks with the Torah. However, when the Catholic Church strayed from the doctrine of grace and went to the doctrine of indulgences, it clearly strayed from the true Christian teachings. However, does that mean that Catholics aren't Christ followers as well? By no means! We need not to throw accusations, but to point to Scripture to let it convict us of what is truth. Conviction works better than accusation.

If anyone wants to know how deep the mormon rabbit hole goes, just ask me. I am an ex mormon who has penetrated the very lowest depths of mormonism. They do believe in the bible, but think it is flawed compared to the BoM. Mormons will tell you that they are christian and follow Christ, and when you watch the BYU tv channel or go to their church, they seem like they put Christ first. It is all for show ladies and gentlemen. Joseph Smith has been quoted in mormon literature boasting how "not even Jesus Christ" has kept a church together like he has. This is the founder of the mormon church saying that, and he's degrading Jesus Christ? the man who is at the forefront of their church supposedly? Go to Salt lake city, to their temples adorned in precious marble and gold inside, count the pentagrams, and the sun idols you see. Do you have an eye for those things? I sure do, and a good one at that. Don't be fooled by them.

Well, it certainly puts Donny and Marie Osmond in a bad light. First they're famous for the teeth, now this!

So , after reading NS, I went on a search and found this: Facts Mormon's wont tell you, when they call at your door. (For the record, I have never had a Mormon knock at my door. JW's are the most popular for that door to door sales pitch around these parts. )

Hmmm I'm curious about this because doesn't the bible say there will be no more Prophets after Christ until the end of days?

This is why Islam isn't just another extension of Christianity and why Mohamed had to discount that Christ was the messiah.

There are a lot of flaws in the Bible, we all know this. So what IS Christianity from the Mormon point of view.

All the worlds religions are cults based, and human in nature. They are a creation of the subconscious mind, trying to link up with a purpose in life, a purpose of being. Jesus, may have said he was the son of god. As are all the people of this earth. We are all the son and daughters of the great creator of the cosmos. The great creator of the cosmos said, tell them, that I'am that I'am. His name, which many say cannot be pronounced is YHVH. YaHoVaH or JaHoVaH.

No, one religion can call another religion a cult, they are all cults!!!

The Church of Siencetology is a cult. So is the Catholic Religion, and the Mormon Religion...ect...It is common human nature, for people to feel the need to bond with there creator. The need to feel loved, and wanted is human nature.
There is a great awareness within all of us to known were we came from. You must first know where you came from, in order to know where you are going in life.
The need to know where we going, after death is very strong in each of us. We need to feel, that there is something greater in life than ourselves.

There are many thing greater in this world, than our personnel self being. The great creator gave us all the power to procreate and bring new life into this physical world.

Plato states that the Egyptians told Solon his uncle, that the destruction of Atlantis occurred 9000 years before that date, to wit, about 9600 years before the Christian era. This looks like an extraordinarily long period of time, but it must be remembered that geologists claim that the remains of man found in the caves of Europe date back 500,000 years; and the fossil Calaveras skull was found deep under the base of Table Mountain, California, the whole mountain having been formed since the man to whom it belonged lived and died.

The Egyptian scribes told Solon one of the seven sages, that in there 17,000 years of written history. There was know deities ever seen or recorded ever being. These gods who created man roamed the earth farther back into history.

errr, i'd be very interested to know what you mean by "new age" and "new age groups" Nephilim Slayer and what the purpose of this statement was.

If the biblically interpretted Christ came back down to earth today...i think he would probably call them "serpents and vipers" as he adressed the Pharisees for followinging the "percepts of men" so to speak.

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? (Extracted from Matthew 23)

"Do not add to His words Lest He reprove you, and you be proved a liar." Proverbs 30:6

"And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, in order that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deut.4:1,2

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." Rev.22:18,19

he he...i am advocating a biblical perspective in this post but as i am sure you all know this is not my oppinion at all. I think the Bible itself is a "percept of man" written by men, and so therefore breaking this very rule of God that it advocates...quite a paradox